Flat primers with a moderate 30 WCF load

[Kyrifleman]

I've been working up a load for my M94 top eject 30-30 and I've ran across a small issue. I'm using the Lee 170 grain flat point gas check mold with wheel weights dropped in water and a Hornady gas check sized to .309. Winchester cases, Winchester WLR primers, 26.0 gr of 3031. Bullets are seated just deep enough to feed smoothly, cases are well trimmed and crimped medium hard with a Lee factory crimp die. I have no barrel leading to speak of. All of my primers look like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/Kyrifleman/null_zpsdce09be8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/Kyrifleman/null_zps9f6c6b5a.jpg
I'd like to push them a little harder but these primers look pretty flat to me. I don't have any other components to choose from so what should I tweak to make it safe to get a little more steam from my reloads?

[rond]

Can't tell for sure from a picture but the primer looks fine to me.

[Dan Cash]

From picture hard to tell but primer looks fine to me as well. Your load looks to be moderate as well.

[Bent Ramrod]

You might have a little bit of excess headspace, as 94s are wont to do. The primer backs out a trifle on firing, then the shell pushes back against the breech to (almost) seat it again. This is not a cause for alarm at the pressures 94s operate at, and your primers are not flat from too much pressure.

In that model and caliber, you will likely get sticky extraction as your first sign that pressure is getting too high.

[RickinTN]

You probably don't have any problem at all. The primer also looks normal to me as well as I can tell from the picture and my older eyes. This topic was covered in another thread about two weeks ago, but I'm sorry as I don't know how to direct you to that thread. In the 30-30 cartridge, if the case is sized more than the minimum (neck sized) it creates a slightly over headspaced condition. When fired, the primer backs out to contact the bolt face then the case is expanded to fill the headspace dimention re-seating the primer into the case. This results in what would be sharp edges to the primer. Couple with this situation with the fact that lever actions have more "spring" than the typical bolt action and it exaggerates the condition. In the 30-30 cartridge with a 170gr cast bullet you should be good up to around 30 grs of IMR 3031 and I think most data will bear this out. It is difficult at 30-30 operating pressures for a primer to show true "flattening" due to pressure. Try sizing these same cases just enough to size 2/3 of the necks and repeat your testing as I think you'll find the square corners of the primers to go away.
Good Luck,
Rick

PS Ramrod typed faster than I did, saying about the same thing.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned; appears to be a headspace problem. Assuming you are FL sizing by bumping shell holder into bottom of FL die? Id so; don't. Back it of so you just set the should back for easy chambering. Basically you want to headspace off the case shoulder instead of the rim. You'll get longer case life that way also.

Larry Gibson

[Kyrifleman]

Thanks for the input and sorry for the picture quality. I scratched up the lens on my phone camera. They're just a tiny bit muffin topped and they show machine marks from the bolt face, though you can't really tell from the pictures. Last year I fired a case and noticed a little soot around the primer pocket so maybe I'm being overly cautious about reading primers now. If I can get another chrony (chronographs really hate Speer Gold Dots) and get this load to about 2000 fps, I'll be pretty happy.

And on sizing the cases, you're saying to only screw in the die till it sizes about 2/3 of the neck? I've heard of leaving a very small gap between the die and shell plate but I wanna make sure I understand what you're saying before I go forward.

[aspangler]

You probably don't have any problem at all. The primer also looks normal to me as well as I can tell from the picture and my older eyes. This topic was covered in another thread about two weeks ago, but I'm sorry as I don't know how to direct you to that thread. In the 30-30 cartridge, if the case is sized more than the minimum (neck sized) it creates a slightly over headspaced condition. When fired, the primer backs out to contact the bolt face then the case is expanded to fill the headspace dimention re-seating the primer into the case. This results in what would be sharp edges to the primer. Couple with this situation with the fact that lever actions have more "spring" than the typical bolt action and it exaggerates the condition. In the 30-30 cartridge with a 170gr cast bullet you should be good up to around 30 grs of IMR 3031 and I think most data will bear this out. It is difficult at 30-30 operating pressures for a primer to show true "flattening" due to pressure. Try sizing these same cases just enough to size 2/3 of the necks and repeat your testing as I think you'll find the square corners of the primers to go away.
Good Luck,
Rick

PS Ramrod typed faster than I did, saying about the same thing.

A+ on this. There is nothing wrong with your load. The primer flatening is caused by a load that is a little weak. Not enough to hurt but a little hotter load will take care of your "problem".

[RickinTN]

If you are using cases previously fired in the same rifle I prefer to size the neck alone and if I touch the shoulder, I only want to touch it, not move it back. The 2/3 was probably an exaggeration but it would work, and would assure your aren't moving the shoulder back. As mentioned above by Aspangler you are probably experiencing a touch too much headspace along with a touch to little pressure.
Good Luck,
Rick

[frankenfab]

The firing pin indentation having such rounded edges is what says to me the load is not hot.

And I agree with everything everybody else said.:)

[Kyrifleman]

Everything I've seen here makes a lot of sense. When I go to size the next batch of cases, ill try to keep the die off the shoulder and see how it goes. Thanks a lot for the help. I have a lot of friends who shoot but I'm the only reloader of the bunch so I really appreciate the advice.

And sorry if I dragged up something that's been covered recently. I searched first but I guess I didn't see that other thread.

[fouronesix]

The photos aren't very good but I don't see any signs of primer flattening from high pressure. If the first photo was a little better and taken at an oblique angle it might show a little primer back-out. Which would be more or less normal for the 94 action anyway as the headspace control is usually a little loosy goosy on them anyway.

The only way to "help" control that, as has been posted, would be to back off the sizing die a little so the shoulder is not set back at each reloading. But that too has it's drawbacks because after a reload or two the slick, easy chambering required for best lever action cycling will start to get sticky. Then it will have to be re-set by turning down the sizing die a tad. All this is just the "nature of the beast" so to speak.

[OverMax]

I see it differently. Boolit not sized correctly. (undersize cast boolit) Appears to be pressure loss in your primers pocket also. After resizing and gas checking to correct bore size of. (.310 or .311) your situation should clear up. After resizing correctly. Then there may be a need or not__to increase your powder charge for improved accuracy.

[Lonegun1894]

I also don't see any problems. I load my 170s (actually weigh at 178grs lubed and GCd) with the full 30.0 grs of 3031 and have gone higher without pressure signs in both Win 94s and a Marlin 336. I think you're fine and would just say to follow the advice in the posts above. Just size larger and go up slowly and I think you can easily exceed your expectations.

[bigted]

Everything I've seen here makes a lot of sense. When I go to size the next batch of cases, ill try to keep the die off the shoulder and see how it goes. Thanks a lot for the help. I have a lot of friends who shoot but I'm the only reloader of the bunch so I really appreciate the advice.

And sorry if I dragged up something that's been covered recently. I searched first but I guess I didn't see that other thread.


so try this when setting up your size die ...

1- set the die pretty far above the shell holder and size 1 case.
2- try to chamber the case with just small pressure on the lever.
3- if it wont chamber then turn in your die about a turn or so.
4- repeat till it just chambers with a gentle push on the lever.

this is the spot that will do the best with your brass and not overwork them too much for better accuracy as well as longer brass life.

[OnHoPr]

I don't see any sings of high pressure either and yes the 94's headspace can get a bit sloppy and primers pop out a touch and then get reseated as stated along with the other info given. Actually your primer looks better than most out of a 30-30, it looks like Winchester put in the right size OD firing pin or else you would be getting a ridge around your firing pin primer crater. WLR are very dirty primers they will even make your bullets dirty as you can see going through target paper it doesn't mean that they shoot bad though. You could step it up a bit but to get a little more steam as you say, try one of the slower (4064 - 4350 range) powders but that really depends on your alloy. Generally to start on just neck sizing bring your ram and shell holder up to the bottom of the die and back your die off one turn. After that you can fine tune to your preference. Sometimes I only size to the second bore band of the boolit to hold the boolit along with the crimp too, that way if you have no problems chambering a round that way, your brass at the bottom part of the neck gets fitted concentric to your chamber.

[Salmoneye]

you might have a little bit of excess headspace, as 94s are wont to do. The primer backs out a trifle on firing, then the shell pushes back against the breech to (almost) seat it again. This is not a cause for alarm at the pressures 94s operate at, and your primers are not flat from too much pressure.

In that model and caliber, you will likely get sticky extraction as your first sign that pressure is getting too high.

/\/\this/\/\

[Kyrifleman]

so try this when setting up your size die ...

1- set the die pretty far above the shell holder and size 1 case.
2- try to chamber the case with just small pressure on the lever.
3- if it wont chamber then turn in your die about a turn or so.
4- repeat till it just chambers with a gentle push on the lever.

this is the spot that will do the best with your brass and not overwork them too much for better accuracy as well as longer brass life.

The problem with that is that fired, unsized cases chamber easily by hand. Guess that's another sign that pressures are moderate.

[RickinTN]

One turn of your sizing die will effect the amount you are sizing your cases by .071", or seventy one thousandths. The amount you are trying to correct is probably in the .010" to maybe .020" range. The die would have to be adjusted in increments of 1/4 turn or less to find the correct setting. Since your rounds chamber in the rifle they were fired in you won't be able to tell the difference in resistance of chambering because there is none. You are also correct in the fact that since they do chamber easily you are operating in a very safe pressure range. In this situation I would start with the die 1 turn off of the shellholder. This would be .071" more than the least the die will size and shouldn't set the shoulder back at all. The cases also should be somewhat fireformed to your chamber and headspace dimensions. I do say somewhat because at the pressures you are running it sometimes take 3 or so firings to fully fireform the case to your chamber.
I hope this helps,
Rick

[Kyrifleman]

One turn of your sizing die will effect the amount you are sizing your cases by .071", or seventy one thousandths. The amount you are trying to correct is probably in the .010" to maybe .020" range. The die would have to be adjusted in increments of 1/4 turn or less to find the correct setting. Since your rounds chamber in the rifle they were fired in you won't be able to tell the difference in resistance of chambering because there is none. You are also correct in the fact that since they do chamber easily you are operating in a very safe pressure range. In this situation I would start with the die 1 turn off of the shellholder. This would be .071" more than the least the die will size and shouldn't set the shoulder back at all. The cases also should be somewhat fireformed to your chamber and headspace dimensions. I do say somewhat because at the pressures you are running it sometimes take 3 or so firings to fully fireform the case to your chamber.
I hope this helps,
Rick
Couldn't I put a feeler gauge between the die and shell holder to get the same result with more precise repeatability?

[RickinTN]

Yes, you certainly could. Only thing is right now you don't know where you want to be. Your cases chamber easily, and any more sizing will just increase the headspace. If you have some cases which will not chamber or chamber snugly then with those cases you could "start long" and gradually (1/16th of a turn of the die at a time or so) size the cases until they just chamber smoothly in your rifle. This would be the ideal setting. You could then with your feeler gauge measure the distance of the die off of the shellholder and save that measurement for repeatability. 30-30 case life is much shorter when the cases are sized to minimum each time and accuracy is usually better when the headspace is correct for the firearm.
Good Luck,
Rick

[WinMike]

have no quarrel at all with all the previous advice. My experience with my '94 (a 1970 production year, i.e., mystery metal receiver) is that when I tried to neck-size only, there was just enough resistance in chambering that I thought (dreamed?) that I might not be able to work the action fast enough if necessary....(you know, the deer keeps running after the first shot, and you want to shoot again....and again...)

Anyway, I just screwed the sizing die in slightly (maybe not even 1/4 turn) to barely squeeze the shoulder. Cartridges chamber more smoothly and I still get the advantages of neck-sizing only. Come to think of it, that's what BigTed recommended.

You might slug your barrel to see if a .310 bullet would be preferred. Don't remember the exact dimensions, but I slugged mine and it came out to factory specs. But my neighbor's Mdl 94 (1950s vintage) was bigger.