Fire forming for headspace

[KCSO]

I recently got a batch of 35 Rem. cases that were formed a trifle short and they needed to be formed for headspace in my Model 8. I don't remember what thread someone was asking about this but here is eht easiest way i have found to fit cases to my chamber. I load a medium load of pistol powder in the too short case and just seat the bullet out so it seats in the rifling. This forces the case head back against the breechblock when firing and the case forms perfectly to the chamber. Since I shot a lot of mid range loads for practice anyway I get my practice and the once fired cases are all ready for full hunting loads with no headspace issues. This also is a sure cure for those shortened cases that have fired too many light loads and set the shoulder back.

[JeffinNZ]

Expand the case neck to create a secondary shoulder far enough forward that the bolt will just close on the case. You will need to use an over expander then slowly and progressively size the nec back down to create the shoulder.

I fire former my .303 British brass into .38-303 I use 15gr Green Dot topped of with polenta.

[mike in co]

whine at me all you want...but missuse of the term does rub me wrong a bit.
you fire formed for your chamber, not any headspace.
headspace is a number, and was set when the gun was chambered. (it can grow over time due to wear, overloading, lots of max loads, but for the average shooter it is fixed and you can do little to change it).
it applies only to the chamber(of a bottle neck case), it exists only on the chamber drawing, and does not exist on the cartridge drawing.

it is defined by SAAMI, it is listed on chamber drawings.
no arguements, its in black and white in the industry standard for the us of a.
if you dont like it, dont tell me. go jump on joe's bandwagon, he has his own set of definitions.
been there done that.
mike in co

[leftiye]

Oh heck! here we go again!

[35remington]

Mike, we know what KCSO meant, KCSO knows what he meant, and you know what he meant.

He was correcting a mismatch of chamber/cartridge that resulted in incorrect fit. Good way to do it. I do the same thing in one of my own .35 Remingtons.

Not worth arguing about otherwise.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I once had a 1933 Obendorf Mauser that apparently had had a long and bad war. It also had an excessive indefinable condition. The secondary shoulder method helped me to make safe ammunition.

[mike in co]

Mike, we know what KCSO meant, KCSO knows what he meant, and you know what he meant.

He was correcting a mismatch of chamber/cartridge that resulted in incorrect fit. Good way to do it. I do the same thing in one of my own .35 Remingtons.

Not worth arguing about otherwise.
i agree i knew what he meant, i guess you knew what he meant, BUT I DO NOT KNOW THAT "WE" KNEW what he meant., which is why i posted.
do not ASSume that everyone KNOWS what was being discussed.
it is obvious from posts on this and other sites that not only do some people not KNOW, but often have miss place headspace "clearance" for headspace.

this is not an argument, its simply trying to correct the improper use of a word that is part of the vocabulary of the firearms sports.

mike

[9.3X62AL]

God help the poor soul who comes in here and refers to the projectile section of a firearm cartridge as a "bullet head". Someone find a blindfold and a wall, there seems to be rifles enough to go around.

[Bret4207]

Oooo, ooo! Can I put the blind fold on him and give the orders for "Ready, aim, fire!"

I have to fireform to my CHAMBER in my 6.5 x257Roberts using the false shoulder technique. The throat is so long a 160 Hornady doesn't touch.....

[waksupi]

I wonder for rifles with long throats, where you can't reach the rifleing for fireforming, if a paper patch on he bullet may fill it enough to do the job?

[Bret4207]

Probably. I bet teflon tape would work too.

[Larry Gibson]

KCSO

Must be why great minds think alike. I just fire formed 100 .35 Remington cases yesterday in my M91 Argie rebarreled to .35 Rem. It had been short chambered but I got a reamer from the Preacher and reamed it to headspace on my FL sized cases. Doubt I'll ever buy any factory ammo to fire but the 3 rounds of it I have chambered perfectly. Anyways I put 6 gr Bullseye in the cases that fit the short chamber and seated 358477s over that so the driving band was half engraved when chambered. They fireformed perfectly and I got some nice plinking in at the 100 yard berm.

Larry Gibson

[mike in co]

God help the poor soul who comes in here and refers to the projectile section of a firearm cartridge as a "bullet head". Someone find a blindfold and a wall, there seems to be rifles enough to go around.



nah , al,
its only "head" that jerks my chain, never seen bullet head.

mike

[Bret4207]

"Pill" gets me going. So does weapon, sidearm, peace officer. Just leave it gun, pistol and cop. Oh yeah- "Sworn Officer"- whut is that? You''re either a cop or you ain't.

[waksupi]

I'm sticking with weapon, for my firearms, as that is thier primary purpose. They are only used for target and hunting incidently.

[Jim]

if you dont like it, dont tell me.

I know dern good and well I ain't got no business doin' this, but I gotta ask:Mike, does this work both ways?[smilie=1:

[Bret4207]

I'm sticking with weapon, for my firearms, as that is thier primary purpose. They are only used for target and hunting incidently.

I mean as in, "I took my weapon from my holster..." Sounds goofy to me. Just my personal opinion.

[mike in co]

I know dern good and well I ain't got no business doin' this, but I gotta ask:Mike, does this work both ways?[smilie=1:


sorta....in the same situtiation.....you are trying to correct an error........its not the same if you are just pushing your opinion( esp if your opinion is not in agreement with the industry std)

mike

[DonH]

you fire formed for your chamber, not any headspace.
headspace is a number, and was set when the gun was chambered. (it can grow over time due to wear, overloading, lots of max loads, but for the average shooter it is fixed and you can do little to change it).
it applies only to the chamber(of a bottle neck case), it exists only on the chamber drawing, and does not exist on the cartridge drawing.

mike in co

"cept headspace ain't an ethereal indefinable concept nor is it a number like "Pi" in a formula. It is a very real and measurable space between the case head and breechface. It IS a function of the chambering but when a case does not fit the chamber due to the shoulder being pushed back, etc., the effect is the same as too much headspace. I learned this the hard way by having several near case Ieparations due to .338-06 cases not being fireformed properly. The secondary shoulder method took care of that.

I AM NOT BEING ARGUMENTATIVE, just commenting.

Don

[tom barthel]

Not everyone is an expert. we don't all know the proper terms. we probably do like a bit of good information from time to time. Few people look forward to being corrected on terms we don't care that much about. Most of us just like to load and shoot. I'm happy to hit my target and not blow up. I read a lot of good information and make my own decisions. I try to remember some people know less than I do. I also know some people know more than I. I'm glad KCSO worked out his problem.

[Blammer]

so, Mike, given that you know the problem as describe by KCSO, how would you explain it?

[Jim]

Mike(in particular) and the rest of the board members,
First, I owe you an apology. My reply was out of hand as it was deliberately meant to be sarcastic. I was wrong and I ask you to forgive me for being somewhat childish. It was completely negative and leant nothing positive to the thread.
This forum is, without any question, the finest on the internet. Because that is the case, I know that there are many people watching us. Is is extremely important that we all remember this and conduct ourselves accordingly.
I try hard to post in an adult and mature manner. What I said to Mike was completely wrong and I'm really sorry I can't retract it.

[mike in co]

"cept headspace ain't an ethereal indefinable concept nor is it a number like "Pi" in a formula. It is a very real and measurable space between the case head and breechface. It IS a function of the chambering but when a case does not fit the chamber due to the shoulder being pushed back, etc., the effect is the same as too much headspace. I learned this the hard way by having several near case Ieparations due to .338-06 cases not being fireformed properly. The secondary shoulder method took care of that.

I AM NOT BEING ARGUMENTATIVE, just commenting.

Don

not argumentative, but you are wrong, which is why this was brought up.
first headspace is not "measurable space the case head and breechface " in a bottleneck case rimless or semi rimmed case, it is for a rimmed case.
second, it is headspace CLEARANCE not "the effect is the same as too much headspace".

third, headspace IS a defined number for nearly every sporting round in the usofa...it is listed in the SAAMI CHAMBER drawing. it is listed as a number x.xxx plus 0.0xx . once the chamber is reamed to spec, all else is headspace clearance

and just for the fun of it explain to me how a "shoulder being pushed back," happens. lugs wear, and the clearance increases, but if you are shooting hot enough to push the chamber forward( not back) i dont want to be shooting near you.

not being argumentative, just correcting....ouch.

mike

[mike in co]

so, Mike, given that you know the problem as describe by KCSO, how would you explain it?

his rifle chamber has more/or excess CLEARANCE than was desirable, and he fire formed to reduce the clearance for his cases to close to zero clearance.

[mike in co]

Mike(in particular) and the rest of the board members,
First, I owe you an apology. My reply was out of hand as it was deliberately meant to be sarcastic. I was wrong and I ask you to forgive me for being somewhat childish. It was completely negative and leant nothing positive to the thread.
This forum is, without any question, the finest on the internet. Because that is the case, I know that there are many people watching us. Is is extremely important that we all remember this and conduct ourselves accordingly.
I try hard to post in an adult and mature manner. What I said to Mike was completely wrong and I'm really sorry I can't retract it.


while i'll accept your apology, i do not think you owe me , nor anyone else here an apology. i had no problem with the question, i think i knew what you were saying, and hopefully i answered it correctly.

i personally find it amazing that so many shooters have such a problem with the concept of HEADSPACE and headspace CLEARANCE.
THANKS
mike

[Blammer]

well I'm glad he didn't use the clearance, cause I wouldn't have know what the heck he was talking about...

guess I'm just not comprehending the words right. oh well, life goes on.

[leftiye]

And a lotta us jest say it wrong.

[montana_charlie]

they [short cases] needed to be formed for headspace in my Model 8.
I would say that KCSO used the proper terminology. His rifle has a 'headspace' dimension. If it is different from the SAAMI specs, that is another issue. His brass was originally fireformed in a different chamber, and was too short for his own.

To say that he fireformed the brass to match the headspace of his rifle is a perfectly accurate statement, because that is the final result.

However, for a nanosecond the brass filled the chamber so completely it used up all of the volume devoted to 'headspace'...AND it filled up all of the 'extra space' machined into his rifle by the maker. That extra space is a manufacturing tolerance which allows the breech to close on fully formed cases without interference.

The amount of tolerance (over the SAAMI headspace dimension) will vary with action type (semi-autos requiring more to assure reliability) and quality of manufacture.

That extra space, that tolerance, is the 'headspace clearance'...which will present (in most chamberings) as a few thousandths of an inch of empty space between the breech face and the head of a properly fitting case. Headspace clearance is established when the gun is built, and is not something the shooter can typically 'adjust'.

KCSO's cases showed an apparent excess of headspace clearance...but only because they were not properly fitted to the headspace of his rifle.

CM

[mike in co]

I would say that KCSO used the proper terminology. His rifle has a 'headspace' dimension. If it is different from the SAAMI specs, that is another issue. His brass was originally fireformed in a different chamber, and was too short for his own.
HERE IS WHERE WE DISAGREE. (HECK EVEN YOU AGREE WITH ME...LOOK BELOW)...KCSO WAS ADJUSTING HIS BRASS TO HIS "CHAMBER" NOT HIS "HEADSPACE" HE DOES NOT MENTION MEASURING OR KNOWING THE HEADSPACE DIMENSION OF HIS RIFLE. HIS HEADSPACE MAYBE OUT OF "SPEC" WE NOT KNOW...IS NOT THE QUESTION HERE.

To say that he fireformed the brass to match the headspace of his rifle is a perfectly accurate statement, because that is the final result.

However, for a nanosecond the brass filled the chamber so completely it used up all of the volume devoted to 'headspace'...AND it filled up all of the 'extra space' machined into his rifle by the maker. That extra space is a manufacturing tolerance which allows the breech to close on fully formed cases without interference.
SORRY BUT YOU ARE WRONG HERE. THE EXTRA SPACE IS PROVIDED ON THE "CARTRIDGE" DRAWING. THE RIFLE MUST COMPLY WITH THE "CHAMBER" DRAWING. AS STATED BEFORE THE CHAMBER IS X.XXX PLUS 0.0XX. WITH ONE KNOWN EXCEPTION THE CLEARANCE IS PROVIDE IN THE CARTRIDGE DRAWING IN THAT IT IS ALWAYS SMALLER THAN THE MAX OF THE CHAMBER NUMBERS. I WOULD NOT KEEP A RIFLE THAT HAD "MANUFACTURING TOLERANCES" LARGER THAN MAX SAMMI CHAMBER DRAWING.


The amount of tolerance (over the SAAMI headspace dimension) will vary with action type (semi-autos requiring more to assure reliability) and quality of manufacture.
....SORRY BUT THIS JUST ISNT SO. SAAMI IS THE SAME IN A BOLT 223 AS IN A SEMI 223( 5.56 IS DIFF).

That extra space, that tolerance, is the 'headspace clearance'...which will present (in most chamberings) as a few thousandths of an inch of empty space between the breech face and the head of a properly fitting case. Headspace clearance is established when the gun is built, and is not something the shooter can typically 'adjust'.WRONG.HEADSAPCE IS ESTABLISHED WHEN THE RIFLE IS BUILT/CHAMBERED. ALL CLEARANCE IS IN THE CARTRIDGE DRAWING. GO LOOK AT THE TWO DRAWINGS.
KCSO's cases showed an apparent excess of headspace clearance...but only because they were not properly fitted to the headspace of his rifle. WRONG.CASES CANNOT HAVE "EXCESS HEADSPACE CLEARANCE" THERE IS NO "HEADSPACE" CALLOUT ON THE CARTRIDGE DRAWING. CASES CAN HAVE EXCESS CLEARANCE.


CM

I HAVE AN AREOSPACE / NUCLEAR ENGINEERING AND MANUFACTURING BACKGROUND( i used to read blueprints(thats shows you how long ago) for a living). there is a difference in chamber headspace, excess headsapce and cartridge clearance. if you know how to read a drawing, it is quite obvious.
i listen when others talk about cast boolits, cause i'm open to learing something new. the deffinition of headspace changed when we added rimless and semi-rimmed rifle cases. only on rimmed cases is headspace the distance from the breechface/bolt face to the cartridge case head. on most other cases, what most of us shoot today, it is from a data point( at a certian dia on the shoulder of the chamber) to the case head.

you may have opinons, but my statements are based on the facts of the SAAMI drawings, plain and simple.
i'm not here to argue with people, i'm trying to get my fellow shooters to use a few words in our vocabulary correctly.
mike

[KCSO]

Gee
All I wanted to do was offer an alternative to necking a case up and down to hold the base of the case tight up to the breech of the gun. All this time I thought headspace was the room between the hatband and your head.

[mike in co]

Gee
All I wanted to do was offer an alternative to necking a case up and down to hold the base of the case tight up to the breech of the gun. All this time I thought headspace was the room between the hatband and your head.

dont wear a hat, it is the distance from the top of my head and the bottom of the sunroof......or was that clearance....lol

[oneokie]

And here all these years I thought it was in reference to how well the area between one's ears was filled.

[DonH]

"and just for the fun of it explain to me how a "shoulder being pushed back," happens. lugs wear, and the clearance increases, but if you are shooting hot enough to push the chamber forward( not back) i dont want to be shooting near you."

Elementary. When forming cases for wildcat cartridges it is easy for a case, as formed in the die, to have the shoulder pushed a bit too far back to fireform correctly. tWhen this happens the striker will drive the cartridge forward in the chamber and upon ignition, the case wall grabs the chamber wall alowing the head of the case to be pushed to the rear and the primer to back out somewhat. The (my) round in question is .338-06 and I made the mistake of believing what the "experts" said/wrote about forming cases from .30-06 by just running then into the sizing die. The resultant cases were taken, after being fired with a moderate load, to a riflesmith/mechanical engineer who explained the problem to me and said the effect on the case was the same as too much headspace. I knew him, his work and reputation well but I don't know you. The .35 Remington, like .338-06 or .35 Whelen doesn't have much o a shoulder so it is easy to have this problem.
The only reason I commented was the statement which sounded like headspace just is a number on a drawing. It is that certqinly but it is also measurable because I have watched it being done and too muchof it results in too much "clearance" between the bolt/breech face. Wheter the case is rimmed or rimless. Maybe I didn't word what I wrote well but if you take out the semantics what I said is not much different from your later posts.

BTW, I am not an engineer but understand"engineerspeak" and certainly read blueprints as well as translating them into finished products with my own hands.

Y'all have as good a day as you can stand!

[mike in co]

don h,
this may be some mis-speak by all involved. i thought we were discusing chambers and the shoulder of a chamber, not the shouder of a case.( headspace is a chamber subject, not a case subject)
i understand how a case shoulder may be moved.
maybe if you had said case shoulder instead of just shoulder there would have been no issue.

so will let that issue pass...yes ?

[joeb33050]

I'm sort of disappointed that nobody has looked up the definitions that mike waves around. I thought that this argument was settled when I invited mike to read the Preface to the SAAMI Glossary.
Here's the site, and the first paragraph of that preface.

http://www.saami.org/Glossary/index.cfm

This working draft of a Glossary of Industry terms has been compiled by SAAMI's Technical Committee to facilitate technical interchanges between members of that committee. It is not intended to provide legal definition of the terms included, and, in light of further experience, the definitions of these terms may change. It is not intended to be comprehensive since it does not cover the full range of the diversity of the sporting arms and ammunition industry's products. It is, in other words, a working draft that, it is hoped, may be useful in addressing certain technical matters frequently considered by the Technical Committee and is subject to further change and refinement.
Does this sound like SAAMI contends that these are the only correct definitions?
Or doesn't it?

You decide, but please, don't believe anyone, check, particularly if it's easy.
joe b.

[mike in co]

I'm sort of disappointed that nobody has looked up the definitions that mike waves around. I thought that this argument was settled when I invited mike to read the Preface to the SAAMI Glossary.
Here's the site, and the first paragraph of that preface.

http://www.saami.org/Glossary/index.cfm

This working draft of a Glossary of Industry terms has been compiled by SAAMI's Technical Committee to facilitate technical interchanges between members of that committee. It is not intended to provide legal definition of the terms included, and, in light of further experience, the definitions of these terms may change. It is not intended to be comprehensive since it does not cover the full range of the diversity of the sporting arms and ammunition industry's products. It is, in other words, a working draft that, it is hoped, may be useful in addressing certain technical matters frequently considered by the Technical Committee and is subject to further change and refinement.
Does this sound like SAAMI contends that these are the only correct definitions?
Or doesn't it?

You decide, but please, don't believe anyone, check, particularly if it's easy.
joe b.<br>



PLEASE NOTE: "the definitions of these terms may change." PLEASE NOTE THE WORD "MAY". IT DOES NOT SAY THAT JOE HAS THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE DEFINITION, IT DOES NOT SAY THAT IF A DEFINITION CHANGES THAT IT WILL NOT BE POSTED.
THE SITE STILL CARRIES THE DEFINTION I POSTED LAST YEAR...INSPITE OF JOE SUPPOSEDLY SENDING A REQUEST TO HAVE IT CHANGED!<br>


PLEASE NOTE: "may be useful in addressing certain technical matters ".........JOE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND TECHNICAL MATTERS EVIDENTLY.....SUCH AS THE DIFFERENCE IN "CLEARANCE" AND HEADSPACE".<br>

PLEASE NOTE: "is subject to further change and refinement."..........NO CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE. THE DEFINITIONS ARE STILL THE SAME AS LAST YEAR WHEN I ATTEMPTED TO SHOW JOE THE ERROR OF HIS WAYS.
PLEASE NOTE: FOR THOSE NOT WANT TO CHASE DOWN THE DEFINITONS, HERE THEY ARE. STRAIGHT FROM THE SAAMI SITE.
<br>
HEAD CLEARANCE
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.




HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.


I'LL TAKE FLACK OVER CARTRIDGE CASE CLEARANCE AND HEAD CLEARANCE, BUT IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT JOE IS WRONG AND THAT HE IS COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF ADMITTING HE IS WRONG.

i have been good...i stopped posting on joes crap and have ignored him. the staff liked it that way. its strange that he can come and question my posts. i certainly hope the staff bans him. he is no longer welcome on cba's site, why do we put up with his wasting bandwidth on this site ?

and this guy is writting a book for beginers to learn about our sport.....you gotta be kidding me.

mike in co....

[45nut]

I implore all parties to relax and move on, if it hasn't been settled in 35 posts I see little hope for it.

[bravokilo]

What exactly is "headspace clearance"? Never heard of it before.


What is a "personal" attack and would this qualify?

Yeah, that qualified



What is "industry standard"?



BK

[mike in co]

What exactly is "headspace clearance"? Never heard of it before.


What is a "personal" attack and would this qualify?




What is "industry standard"?



BK

bk....
1) there is no term as headspace clearance in SAAMI, and i said i would take flack for using the term. it was my error in trying to explain the diff in a number( headspace) and what allows a cartridge to fit( clearance ).
2) i have been in constant communication with the board management on the subject of joe.
( go read sundog's last line . last post,in the cast boolit accuracy. )

3) THE industry standard for the american sporting arms and ammunition is SAAMI. they publish standardized drawings for chambers and ammunition and have a glossary of terms. what are you asking?

other than that, as 45 nut has said,,,this thread is over.

mike

[Pat I.]

If you don't mind I'd like to add one final post to this topic.

Joe Brennan is not banned or unwelcome on the CBA site. You don't have to agree with somebody but as long as the replies remain civil no one is unwelcome, just like here. If everyone agreed about everything it'd be a boring world.

I believe mike in co. is right about the meaning of headspace in the literal sense but the word has become bastardized through time to mean both the space between the bolt face and a datum line somewhere in the chamber or on the rim recess, why you use headspace guages when chambering a barrel, and case clearance. Not a big deal and I think people know that you're referring to case clearance unless your talking about fitting barrels.

[bravokilo]

"2) i have been in constant communication with the board management on the subject of joe.
( go read sundog's last line . last post,in the cast boolit accuracy. )"


That does not answer my question. Is that or is that not a personal attack? I was given the impresssion that was not to be tolerated on this forum.



3) THE industry standard for the american sporting arms and ammunition is SAAMI. they publish standardized drawings for chambers and ammunition and have a glossary of terms. what are you asking?


If "head clearance" is the accepted term then why in 35+ years of reading firearms publications do I not recall ever seeing the term used. Are all the writers stupid? I even looked at the "Headspace" chapters in the loading manuals and was unable to find it. I challenge anybody to show me 3 examples of the term "head clearance" being used and/or defined in any article or chapter written in the last 50 years.


BK

[mike in co]

"2) i have been in constant communication with the board management on the subject of joe.
( go read sundog's last line . last post,in the cast boolit accuracy. )"


That does not answer my question. Is that or is that not a personal attack? I was given the impresssion that was not to be tolerated on this forum.



3) THE industry standard for the american sporting arms and ammunition is SAAMI. they publish standardized drawings for chambers and ammunition and have a glossary of terms. what are you asking?


If "head clearance" is the accepted term then why in 35+ years of reading firearms publications do I not recall ever seeing the term used. Are all the writers stupid? I even looked at the "Headspace" chapters in the loading manuals and was unable to find it. I challenge anybody to show me 3 examples of the term "head clearance" being used and/or defined in any article or chapter written in the last 50 years.


BK


it was not a personal attack, it was simply the truth.

you are about a year late to start in on this subject. please note that management has ask to end it. i'm trying to ...you guys will not.

it is not about "head clearance", it is about the correct use of "headspace". its about a person publishing a book to be used by beginners and refusing to use the correct version of a technical term, and instead using an incorrect term, known to be incorrect, and so identified but the industry standard SAAMI. you are not the industry standard. just because you have not seen/do not agree with the industry standard does not make you correct.

not all gun rag writers are stupid, just not as competent as most of the people on this board would like.( i subscribe to no gun magazines....does that provide an opinion of what i think of gun mag(rag) writting).

please let this end as management has requested. for more info do a search on headspace and go read the original thread.

mike in co

[mike in co]

If you don't mind I'd like to add one final post to this topic.

Joe Brennan is not banned or unwelcome on the CBA site. You don't have to agree with somebody but as long as the replies remain civil no one is unwelcome, just like here. If everyone agreed about everything it'd be a boring world.

I believe mike in co. is right about the meaning of headspace in the literal sense but the word has become bastardized through time to mean both the space between the bolt face and a datum line somewhere in the chamber or on the rim recess, why you use headspace guages when chambering a barrel, and case clearance. Not a big deal and I think people know that you're referring to case clearance unless your talking about fitting barrels.



well lets make it clear what i mean when i say joe is not welcome on the cba site. the site management proposed that the SAAMI glossary be used as the standard for terminology..specifically "headspace". specifically for the space the site was providing to joe for his "book". the adult joe is, he took his ball(book) and went home. i'm sure joe and his book would be welcomed back on the cba site, if he would act like a mature adult and admit his error. until then joe with his definition of headsapce is not welcome on the site to continue his "book".

continued mis-use of technical words, by non-technical people is what causes miscommunication. instead of being a lemming and following the pack , try doing something correctly.

now can it stop ??

mike in co

[Pat I.]

[QUOTE=
continued mis-use of technical words, by non-technical people is what causes miscommunication. instead of being a lemming and following the pack , try doing something correctly.[/QUOTE]

tis more important things in life than arguing about a term, when used in context, everyone but you seems to accept.

now it can stop.