Very New to Swaging

[10mm Witness]

Hello, this is my first post on this forum and I have few question about swaging. I have been reloading for 3 yrs now and enjoy it but I would like to get into making projectiles and selling them. I have been doing research on this subject and I'm confused on projectile length. I don't have any equipment yet. I don't comprehend how to make a longer bullet. Say you want to make .40 cal. projectiles, 10mm projectiles and 38-40 projectiles. From what I have researched, these are the same caliber(diameter).401. These three projectiles may not be the same length correct? So is the length adjustable by the dimension between the point forming die and the base forming die? If this is true then one can say that I can use one .401 die and make three different projectiles for three different weapons? ie: .40 Glock/10mm Witness/38-40 Winchester. I am asking as I want to start a small business making custom projectiles. I need to know will I be buying dies for name of bullet per weapon or just a die for each diameter regardless of make or model of weapon? For example there are many names for a 9mm and .45 but the dies are made for diameter. I'm sure it would be just by the diameter of the weapons barrel.

[Zymurgy50]

You buy swaging dies in a specific diameter, say .401 for the above mentioned calibers. and control the length by the jacket and the amount of lead in the jacket.
In my .452 dies a .550" long jacket will make a 250gn soft point with quite a bit of lead exposed, Where a .700" jacket will make a 250gn hollow point with the jacket covering the exposed lead at the point.
I can also use the .550" jackets to make a 225-230gn bullet for the 45acp.
I also swage pure lead .452 slugs to use with a sabot in my muzzleloaders, any weight i want up to 450gn. Roundnose in one point forming die, TC in another, Keith type swc's with a punch in the core seat die.

[ReloaderFred]

Welcome to the Forum.

If you're considering making these bullets for sale, be advised you'll need a Class 6 FFL, plus ITAR registration with the Dept. of State. The ITAR registration alone is $2,300 for the first year, and goes up the second year.

The ATF is looking for examples to make, as we were told by our "friendly" ATF agent just two weeks ago, so you don't want to be that "example". Just a simple heads up before you dive into this venture.

You can make all the bullets you want for your own use without a license, but sell one bullet, and they find out, they'll start to work on you.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[kweidner]

Welcome to the Forum.

If you're considering making these bullets for sale, be advised you'll need a Class 6 FFL, plus ITAR registration with the Dept. of State. The ITAR registration alone is $2,300 for the first year, and goes up the second year.

The ATF is looking for examples to make, as we were told by our "friendly" ATF agent just two weeks ago, so you don't want to be that "example". Just a simple heads up before you dive into this venture.

You can make all the bullets you want for your own use without a license, but sell one bullet, and they find out, they'll start to work on you.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Started the process in March. Have my ffl. Still waiting on ITAR #. If doing bullets alone, unless you have tons of free time or commercial equipment the time factor is gonna kill you. IE. 1 hour to derim 360 cases, weight sort them an hour, An hour for bleeding 300 cores, another hour for seating and 30 to 45 minutes to point those 300 up. Dont forget anneal of 20 minute and 3 cleanings at roughly 30 minutes prep 10 minutes each. About 5.5 hours for 300 -350. What is your time worth? 5.5 hours into 50 dollars worth of bullets? If your loading them and have free bullets that's a little different story. You can recoup that less than 10 dollars an hour on loaded rounds. Only reason I make mine right now is availability and time. I can't sell one till my ITAR comes back. Don't forget insurance starting at 2200 per year.

Sell 15000 ish loaded rounds for just breaking even on itar, buisness license and insurance. Don't forget about armotorizing your equipment. When the bullets become more available, I won't swage for my rounds I sell. I swage because I can and rather enjoy it.

83480

[Sasquatch-1]

I'm confused on projectile length.

The simple answer to your question is weight equals length.

Now as mentioned previously, unless you can afford commercial equipment, you will be hard press to make a business out of this. A guy asked me once how much I would charge him for jacketed 44cal bullets and I told him, "If I would sell them to you it would be $10.00 a bullet."

[10mm Witness]

Reloaderfred - ITAR is for international trade. Are you looking to sell to a foreign market? I am not. I only will sell to continental U.S.. I will contact the ATF to verify though.

What do you guys consider 'commercial equipment'? I plan on buying hydraulic powered equipment from Corbin with some automation built in. I'm not going to manually move a lever like I do for reloading my own ammunition. My arm would fall off from the repetition. lol I am not trying to keep up with mass manufacturing. That won't happen. What I plan is custom bullets for odd calibers at $.75-$1.50 each. Where the owner of a firearm can go to buy rounds for match competition, hunting, home defense.

[jmort]

ITAR mandatory, no way around it.

[ReloaderFred]

10mm Witness,

The ITAR registration is required for selling bullets you make, no matter where you sell them. No license is required to sell bullets you don't make, but if you "manufacture" them, then ITAR is required.

We're only going to be selling bullets to cowboy shooters, and locally at that, but ITAR is still required, and if they catch you selling without it, they will spare no expense to prosecute. This is what the ATF agent related to us during his inspection.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Theditchman]

Maybe this will help


TITLE 22––FOREIGN RELATIONS

CHAPTER I––DEPARTMENT OF STATE

PART 122 –– REGISTRATION OF MANUFACTURERS AND EXPORTERS

Section Contents
§ 122.1 Registration requirements.
§ 122.2 Submission of registration statement.
§ 122.3 Registration fees.
§ 122.4 Notification of changes in information furnished by registrants.
§ 122.5 Maintenance of records by registrants.

Authority: Secs. 2 and 38, Public Law 90–629, 90 Stat. 744 (22 U.S.C. 2752, 2778); E.O. 11958, 42 FR 4311; 1977 Comp. p. 79, 22 U.S.C. 2651a.
Source: 58 FR 39298, July 22, 1993, unless otherwise noted.
§ 122.1 Registration requirements.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in the business of manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting a defense article or furnishing a defense service. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register

[ReloaderFred]

Thanks, Theditchman. That explains it better than I can. I don't like it one bit, but I'm not willing to be the poster person for the ATF and U.S. State Dept. in Federal Court, and I stopped being on the evening news when I retired, and I don't intend to be there again...........

Fred

[303british.com]

The world sure is getting crazier every day. It's almost unbelievable that "metals manufacturing" became a "defense article". I truly hope that this law is repealed in the near future for you guys.

[303carbine]

The world sure is getting crazier every day. It's almost unbelievable that "metals manufacturing" became a "defense article". I truly hope that this law is repealed in the near future for you guys.


Hi Steve, are you making heavy 303 bullets?

[303british.com]

Not anymore. There wasn't enough demand for them and jacket prices went crazy.

I got a few inquiries, but when I tried to order jackets from my old supplier, ITAR regs made the sale cost prohibitive. The export license and a price increase for the jackets killed it. When jackets cost approx. 43 cents each, it won't work. I suppose I should be hoping for those regulations to go away too.

I've been concentrating on making 224/6mm bullets from 22LR cases for the last few years.

[10mm Witness]

Ok, I've been to the ITAR website. I do see where it states this. I think it is ridiculous and odd to word the sentence in that manner. It seems to me that is what the BATF is for, to control the manufacture, sale, import/export of ammunition. Thanks Patriot Act. Thanks for making it more difficult for us law abiding citizens to protect ourselves.

Who enforces this? The BATF? Do they come to inspect for ITAR regulations just like for the FFL? Or is it just paper work that you have to jump through hoops and be squeaky clean on a background check? And why so expensive? Are they trying to discourage people? Did the NRA speak up about this cost? Did anybody ask why? What is this country coming to?

[Reload3006]

it is not the BATF as they are part of the Justice department ITAR is under the State department. So you have 2 competing parties ready to put you in Jail ... To me not worth the effort.

[ReloaderFred]

The ATF is obligated to report violations to the U.S. State Dept. when they come upon them. The agent who visited us even provided the application forms for ITAR.

Do I like it? Absolutely not! You can rail all you want about it on forums, but the forum moderators and members don't make the laws. It's up to us to contact our elected representatives, the ones who actually make the laws, and complain about onerous laws. My elected congressman isn't sympathetic at all, despite the lip service he provides to gunowners..........

Hope this helps.

Fred