Rust bluing troubles -- rust stays red after boiling.

[kencha]

I've been trying to refinish an old revolver using Pilkington's Classic American Rust Bluing Solution.

The first pass, everything seemed to work well. It came out a nice gunmetal gray.

Now, I cannot get the red rust to blacken when I boil.

I've been using store bought distilled water, and read somewhere that a red coloration in the water after boiling may be a sign of poorly suited water.

I was getting that, so I went to a different grocery store and bought another brand of distilled water. Scrubbed and rinsed the stainless steel boiling pot thoroughly, and tried again.

No luck. The red rust stays red even after up to 1hr of boiling. I card it off, and it is back to gunmetal gray, with no additional darkening noticed.

Out of desperation, I even tried boiling one part in my tap water. No difference.

Any suggestions?

[Browningshooter]

Bump. Im thinking about doing a blue job myself. I'm curious. :popcorn:

[oldred]

Don't know if this will help but I ran into a similar problem when trying to blue a High Wall receiver I had made from 4140HT steel, I never did get it to rust blue properly and could never get it past a grey mottled appearance, after repeated tries I also ran into the failure to change colors problem. Try bluing a piece of soft steel, or at least a different steel than the gun parts, and see if they exhibit the same problem. When I did this I just polished a small square of of 1/4"x3"x3" mild steel plate I had and tried it in the same manner as the gun parts, sure enough it blued perfectly!

[Denver]

I didn't have the problem you're having when I used Pilkingtons on my first tries at rust bluing, but I wasn't able to get very satisfactory results either. I had patchy and uneven color that didn't look any better than cold blue. I switched to Laurel Mountain barrel brown and degreaser and my next few projects came out much better. Also it's much less than half the cost of Pilkintons. Can't explain why you're getting the results you are. Sounds like you're doing everything right. Might try taking the metal back to bare and starting over.

[Dan Cash]

I am not a gunsmith nor do I play one on TV but I believe you problem is that the gun steel is high in nickel content. A cold rusting process should do the job for you as it has for me.

[oldred]

I am not a gunsmith nor do I play one on TV but I believe you problem is that the gun steel is high in nickel content. A cold rusting process should do the job for you as it has for me.


I tend to agree and that's the point I was trying to make with my first post, it seems some steels just aren't good candidates for rust blue.

[seagiant]

Hi,
I quit using Pilkington's and went to Laural Mountain. It works better for me and gives a deeper blue! Not saying that's your problem but something to try before giving up! I bought it straight from the manufacturer!

[flounderman]

I have been using the mark lee rust blue and results have been good. I was having a problem after the first cycle and was told not to put the solution on as heavy as I was. Just a light application instead of swabbing it on. A light application on heated metal seems to work. Different metals will react differently, also.

[kencha]

Thanks for all of the input so far.

I did another boil of a batch of small parts and they blackened. :confused:

I also noticed that when I bought the Pilkingtons I bought the Brownells Classic too. I remember trying to decide between the two when shopping, and accidentally left them both in the cart when I placed the order. I chose to use the Pilkingtons since I figured it is more expensive, it must be better, right? Well, I just switched to the Brownell's for the next pass. I don't know if it will work better in the end, but it wets-out so much better than the Pilkington's did, even with additional cleaning/degreasing after carding.

[Bent Ramrod]

This is probably an extreme long shot, but what is your elevation where you live? I had a solution that did fine when boiled at 2700 feet elevation, the parts going dark as soon as the boiling water touched them. The same stuff, on the same mild steel, at around 4000 feet elevation stayed a plum brown even though boiled at length. It is conceivable that an elevation where the barometer is relatively high one day might allow the rust to blacken where another day with the barometer down might fail as the water would boil at a lower temperature.

Just a thought.

[kencha]

... what is your elevation where you live?

Interesting thought. I'm only at 2100' though.

I wonder if there is an absolute minimum temperature needed for the reaction, and whether a pressure cooker would help when it doesn't blacken.

[oldred]

Fellas the water does not even have to be boiling, read the directions for the Laural Mountain product, they suggest just pouring scalding water over the parts. While I am sure they mean to start with boiling water there is no way it would still be that temperature by the time the container is picked up and poured and the water actually comes into contact with the metal. I have tried scalding and it seems to work just fine and I am certain the water was not at boiling temperature when it hit the parts, I just find it a lot easier to dip the part in boiling water but I honestly can't see any difference in the result.

[aspangler]

One thing you don't want to do is polish too much. About 300 grit is all you need for hot rust blue. Any finer and you have to "pickle" the metal with acid to etch it for the bluing to "bite". Been there done that. Gunsmith told me how to do it and this works. I use the Art's Belgium Blue or Brownells Dicropan IM. Both work but the Art's works best for me. JMHO

[rking22]

I have had good results by using a 2 in PVC pipe capped on one end . I stand it up in a holder fill it wih boiling water then lower the barrel into the water. Let it sit a while ,about a beer or so, then lift it out. It is hot enough to flash dry , card it off and recoat while still warm. Just use oil free gloves and be sure the carding material is free of oil. I had no way to boil the barrel so ,having read somewhere about the scalding ,I gave it a try ,worked great! The only issue I have had is a Browning SA22 1959 vintage reciever. It rusted and blacked out well the first 3 times ,Refused to rust the 4th time?? At all , noda nuthing after 24 hrs outside in Tn in August! I think maybe too much polish ?? I bought it very cheap (badly rusted)and as we share a birth year ,I thought it would be a good project.Any thoughts?

[waksupi]

One thing you don't want to do is polish too much. About 300 grit is all you need for hot rust blue. Any finer and you have to "pickle" the metal with acid to etch it for the bluing to "bite". Been there done that. Gunsmith told me how to do it and this works. I use the Art's Belgium Blue or Brownells Dicropan IM. Both work but the Art's works best for me. JMHO

Yep. I never go past 320 grit.

[broomhandle]

Hi Kenca,


It could be the steel or some other issue the guys mentioned.

I seem to recall that Stainless steel pot might be the problem. I used a enameled pot with no issues.
Just spent about a 1/2 hour looking throught my gun smithing books, for a quote ...no joy.

Good luck in any event,
point6

[andremajic]

I'm watching this thread in interest. I had used mike lee express blue on a magazine tube and two barrel rings and had some spots where it wouldn't change color, and stayed a golden/brown color, while the rest turned black/grey.
After talking with a helpful guntech about what I had and hadn't done, he couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. I followed the directions exactly.
I'll try the enamel pot and a PVC tube next time.

[oldred]

I don't think a stainless container would be a problem, it's all I ever used except for when I was having a problem with the 4140HT steel, I also tried boiling that in the mild steel tank I had welded up for my hot bluing setup I was working on at the time. I too had wondered about the stainless although it would seem that stainless would be the very least likely cause of the problem, still I gave it a try but unfortunately the results were exactly the same.

[kencha]

Just an update. All of the small parts rusted, blackened, and carded wonderfully. I couldn't be happier with the results and they're finished. I just had the one boil of the small parts that didn't convert for whatever reason.

Unfortunately, the barrel, frame, and cylinder have completely stopped cooperating.

They are the parts that have been trouble from the beginning. I did another boil last night. There was hardly any rust, but I wasn't comfortable leaving them overnight, fearing I'd find just 3 little piles of rust come morning, so I boiled them. Incomplete conversion of red->black again. Not as bad as previously though, but maybe it was just because there wasn't much to convert. Carded them, and there are a couple small spots that darkened. They're overall just a medium-light gun-metal gray though.

Coated them again early this morning. They've been in a warm, fairly humid bathroom for 12 hours now, and not a spec of rust to be seen.

I think I'll leave them until morning and see what happens. If nothing, I'll sand them again and start over. If that fails, I'll just cerakote the danged thing. Maybe they are just too smooth. I took everything down to 320 grit, but remember not being as aggressive on the big parts, to avoid removing stampings and original machining marks (which they are pretty much covered with), since I wanted to keep it semi-original looking.


ETA: No luck. There was a very thin film of rust this morning, so I boiled them. This time in an enameled pot. Again, not much, if any, conversion from red to black after 30 minutes. Removing them from the water, they dried to the typical orange-frosted color. After carding, it is back to medium gray. Arghh. Why the heck won't these parts blue?

I have found pictures on the web of the same gun having been rust blued, so I don't think it is due to the type of metal. I don't have an in-depth understanding of the chemistry involved, but I would think if they rust, they could be blued, but for whatever reason, it just won't convert from red to black after the first pass. Everything is the same as was used on the small parts, and they blued.

So, back to square one for these parts. Going to sand them down again, and let them sit in the heated degreaser all day.

[Goatwhiskers]

I use the old Niedner rust blue formula, comprised of nitric and hydrochloric acids, dissolved iron nails, and distilled water. Never polish past 240 grit. Also I hand polish only, an old gunsmith told me that power polishing won't work, took his advice and have never had a problem. I will say that IMHO except for the labor involved rust blueing beats the heck out of hot caustic stuff. GW

[oldred]

Never polish past 240 grit. Also I hand polish only GW

That's not the first time I have heard that suggested but I was always afraid that it would not produce a smooth enough finish however I think I am going to give that a try, I have been polishing down to 320 grit but your post has me convinced I need to try some ML parts I am working on right now to only go to the 240 stage.

This is turning into a very informative discussion, thanks to the OP for bring it it up.

[gnoahhh]

I always go to at least 400grit, sometimes 600. Personal preference. Never ever had a problem with the solution not 'taking'.

[Tazman1602]

Haven't read all the posts but I can tell you this from years of blueing with Brownells Oxynate #7. If the blue turns a bit red after it comes out of the tank and boiling, that is a clear indication you let the blueing solution get too hot. Easy to do if you are distracted for even a minute..................

............and don't ask how I know that............................

Art

[KCSO]

Your metal may be the problem too. Some of the steels used in earlier guns just did not blue well with common bluing solutions. A purple color was common on for instance 94 Winchester receivers.

[kencha]

Another update...

After starting over the 2nd time on the frame/barrel/cylinder, I think I've found success. For whatever reason, those parts never did completely convert from red to black during the boiling, after the first pass. Unfortunately, I didn't ever figure that out. The small parts all converted well, and I would be carding off black velvet. The large parts, I'd be carding off red.

But, if I let them rust long enough, they'd still be darker underneath after carding. So I think my biggest problem was not letting them rust long enough.

Earlier, I was afraid to let them rust too long for fear of pitting. On the 2nd attempt, the first pass went as normal. Converted and carded to a gunmetal gray. The 2nd pass, I thoroughly degreased again (probably not necessary, but I was getting desperate) and used the Pilkington's. This time, I decided I wouldn't boil it until it had a good coat of rust. It ended up sitting for 36 hours! While the small parts would develop a coat of rust in 3-5 hours, it took a full day and a half for the large parts, in very similar heat/humidity conditions. And we're not talking heavy rust. It just had a strong, dark orange hue over the entire treated part.

The following 2 passes I used the Brownell's, and after being left for 24 hours it developed a coat over the whole part.

Upon boiling, there would still be some orange remaining, but there was conversion too.

I'm not wanting a jet black coating, so I think I'm going to stop there. I have it sitting in oil now, and will clean and assemble tomorrow. If I'm not happy with it, I can always degrease and run another pass or two.

So, for anyone thinking about giving it a try, my suggestion FWIW would be to follow the instructions carefully.
Degrease THOROUGHLY (unless you're using Laurel Mountain, I guess).
Apply SPARINGLY (They mean it. If it doesn't practically flash off as an even coat, you're using too much and end up with uneven rusting.)
And, most importantly for me, actually let it rust.

[gnoahhh]

Are you using a damp box to rust your parts inside of? If you're relying on ambient humidity to induce rusting, it's not as controllable/predictable as when using a purpose-built cabinet/box. I have never had to wait 36 hours to get a uniform coat of rust. Often I can get 4 cycles accomplished in a (long) day, but then again I use a damp box with a heat source to generate atmospheric moisture (using distilled water), and have done so from day one. I found that a thermometer inside the box to be sufficient for giving consistent results. A humidity gauge would be handy, but I'm too cheap. I keep a consistent temp, and monitor the parts so as not to let them get too rusty.

There's as much of a feel/sense of art to this as there is pure science.

[David2011]

Just a thought. I've always used reverse osmosis purified water instead of distilled water that may have contacted copper tubing during the distallaton process. In hot bluing any amount of copper can cause problems.

David

[kencha]

It is finished. Not perfect, but I didn't want it to be. The coloring is nice and even though. I just didn't polish it all that well as I didn't want to lose the machining marks, upset metal from the stampings, or some of the character marks.

I did think about getting an aquarium water de-ionizer to try to fix the poor conversion during boiling, but the small parts all processed fine under the exact same conditions, at the same time, with the same water, etc, so I took that as meaning the water wasn't my issue.

They were rusted in a very small bathroom where I set up a heater and left some wet towels hanging. Temp was always 76-85F, and humidity stayed around 70-80% according to a really cheap, and possibly inaccurate, hygrometer.

The same conditions were used throughout the process, both the first time around and the 2nd when I redid just the large parts.

For whatever reason, the large parts simply refused to rust after the first pass. Both times, the first pass worked just as expected on the large parts. The failure of the first attempt was, I think, due to me not waiting long enough on successive passes. But there never was good, full conversion of red->black during boiling on the large parts after the first pass during either attempt. I'll just have to assume it is due to the metal used. I don't understand how that would cause poor conversion. I would think that if it could rust, that rust could be converted. But I won't lose any more sleep over it.

I was able to get them to rust quicker if I applied the solution heavier, but it would end up being very uneven, causing heavy rust spots on some areas (where the last of the solution evaporated) before there was even any visible rust on others.

Thanks for everyones input. I'll definitely do it again if I come across another beater. I've even been keeping an eye out at the LGS and pawn shops looking for another cheap beater to reblue.

[22cf45]

For what its worth, my experience with rust blueing has been good. I've done maybe 20-30 rifles and shotguns, no revolvers or pistols. I buff to 400 grit on a wheel and then hand sand lightly with 600 to remove the squigly lines from the wheel. I don't see any difference between Pilkingtons or Brownells except cost, so I use Brownells. I don't like Mark Lee and haven't tried Laural Mountain. I use RO water and stainless tanks to boil. If the humidity is low, I've got a long plastic box that I think women use to store wrapping paper, after putting the parts in the box, I place 2 or 3 cups with hot water in the box and close the lid. I boil when I see only slight amounts of rust appear since I don't want deep pock marks and a matte looking finish. I don't bother with suspending the parts in the water, I just lay them square on the bottom of the tank and I don't put the parts in until I've got a good boil going. I boil maybe 5 minutes, card, apply the rusting solution, and go again until I've got the color I want. Generally it takes around 8 times. Always check the bluing in bright sunlight before I stop.

I have had the red color remaining after boiling a few times. I just card it off and keep going. So far it has always worked out. The rifles and shotguns I have done have ranged from the 1880's to present modern steel. I've seen no difference.
Your mileage may vary,
Phil

[rattletrap1970]

I use Mark Lee Express Blue. I degrease the metal, warm it with a torch (just so it evaporates fast), then boil in filtered City Tap Water. Longer time on thicker parts (you want the part to get to the temp of the water). Then Card. Then repeat. 6 Times is usually enough for me.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/Guns/Colt%20Gold%20Cup/f969d5d06965f26c6239812338992463_zps9de16608.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/rattletrap1970/media/Guns/Colt%20Gold%20Cup/f969d5d06965f26c6239812338992463_zps9de16608.jpg.h tml)

[22cf45]

The reason I said I didn't like Mark Lee is that after I had gone thru the procedure with Mark Lee 8 times, I took it out into the sun and could see thru the blue. It looked great under artificial light but not so in the sun. I grabbed the Brownells and finished it up. Maybe I should have kept going.
Phil

[rattletrap1970]

I've done many many guns with Express blue. I have never, ever had that problem. There is nothing to see through. I think the effect you are describing is simply not enough iterations of bluing. The frame I showed a picture of was 6 hits and I stopped because it simply wouldn't rust anymore with the solution. And it is this black in any light.

[johnson1942]

i rustblued a leaded steel barrel and it turned out somewhat mottled and looked very very antique.it was on a custom 1840/s muzzle loader i was building. it did not turn out as i had it was supposed to but the more i looked at it i finally realized it was perfect for a antique looking gun. i did everything right , even the boiling but i will only do that again if i want it to look antique.

[HDS]

I have a rust bluing question thats not really related to the OP but I don't want to make a new thread for it. I wonder what kinda final finish will I have if I rust blue a bead blasted and matte surface? Will it be bead blasted and matte still, or will the surface smooth out and become more normal?

I'm interested in refinishing my 870 express with rust bluing and give it a non-matte finish that looks more like a traditional wingmaster finish.

[rattletrap1970]

You can mirror polish metal and then rust blue it BUT, the rust bluing process is a caustic (mildly) process that imparts it's own finish. Hard to explain except that is smooths out (mildly) light sanding and un mirrors a mirror finish. Kind of the shinier side of satin-izes whatever you are working on.

Hot caustic bluing (what gun makers use) is similar to this recipe I have:

5 Pounds Sodium Hydroxide (lye)
4 Pounds Sodium Nitrate (Nitrate of Soda)
2 Gallons of Distilled Water

This is brought up to 253-256 degrees F and parts are immersed for about 30 min. It's a much more dangerous and finicky process, but, you can get your black mirror finish.

[HDS]

I was hoping for the satin like finish actually, I was mostly wondering if I could put the parts in my cabinet and bead blast them, or if I needed to polish the surfaces by hand with something like 320 or 400 grit paper to get that finish.