Teach me your secrets. Swaged 22 bullets.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Looking for some help improving the accuracy of my 22 projectiles. I am the proud owner of a set of BT’s 22lr to 22cf dies. I followed his directions to the best of my ability and after several attempts and getting all the dies set up I am producing 22 bullets that consistently weigh in at 56gr give or take about 2 tenths of a grain. So on the light end bullets weigh 55.8 and the heavy end 56.2.

I have already sorted out all the brass marked “F” because these take an ungodly amount of effort to derim. Also weeded out all the brass marked “C” because they resulted in the most inconsistent bullets. Basically I am left with “Rem” brass and Winchester brass for swaging.

My test rifle is a Winchester model 70 in 22-250 with a 1-14 twist. All my load components are old stand byes, i.e. full length sized Winchester brass, Varget powder, and a CCI bench rest large rifle primer. C.O.L. is the max at 2.350”. As I always do with load development I start off at the suggested starting weight and increase 1/10 of a grain at a time.

All this being said I am having real accuracy issues. All five shot groups measure 6 or more inches at 100 yards and pretty consistently only 4 of the 5 bullets hit the paper. Is the 22-250 just to hot a round for a brass jackets? Could my 1-14 twist not be enough? The holes in the paper where round with no signs of key holing and the same rifle shoots 55gr factory bullets with ¾” at 100 yards. Looking for advice and recommendations.

[kweidner]

I have fired 22-250 upwards of 3400 with less than MOA accuracy. My rifle is a 14 twist IIRC. Make sure when seating cores you are getting optimum OD. I do not separate head-stamps as I weigh every brass and then make cores according to what is desired. Mine are + - .1 most often. I have found though that seems irrelative. Consistency in the dwell time etc makes a huge difference in consistent groups as does the speed you work the ram. Here are some I just took out of the tumbler this AM . In all my platforms I have been able to find a workable load less than MOA. Most of the time less than .5 MOA. Try different powders, try different seating depths. Stay after it and it will pay dividends. 83432

[sprinkintime]

Looking for some help improving the accuracy of my 22 projectiles. I am the proud owner of a set of BT’s 22lr to 22cf dies. I followed his directions to the best of my ability and after several attempts and getting all the dies set up I am producing 22 bullets that consistently weigh in at 56gr give or take about 2 tenths of a grain. So on the light end bullets weigh 55.8 and the heavy end 56.2.

I have already sorted out all the brass marked “F” because these take an ungodly amount of effort to derim. Also weeded out all the brass marked “C” because they resulted in the most inconsistent bullets. Basically I am left with “Rem” brass and Winchester brass for swaging.

My test rifle is a Winchester model 70 in 22-250 with a 1-14 twist. All my load components are old stand byes, i.e. full length sized Winchester brass, Varget powder, and a CCI bench rest large rifle primer. C.O.L. is the max at 2.350”. As I always do with load development I start off at the suggested starting weight and increase 1/10 of a grain at a time.

All this being said I am having real accuracy issues. All five shot groups measure 6 or more inches at 100 yards and pretty consistently only 4 of the 5 bullets hit the paper. Is the 22-250 just to hot a round for a brass jackets? Could my 1-14 twist not be enough? The holes in the paper where round with no signs of key holing and the same rifle shoots 55gr factory bullets with ¾” at 100 yards. Looking for advice and recommendations.

Do you have a few J-4 Jacket around to swage and give a comparison to your 22lr jackets ? It also could be the speed, the 22-250 might just be to fast, you might try to download a little more to see if that helps. Use the min. that your load book calls for. Sprink

[Prospector Howard]

One more swager fighting with a derim punch and the thicker Federal and CCI cases. Holy jumpin poop balls. 2ndAmendmentNut, if you want to use Federal and CCI cases; you should get another derim punch that's 3 thousandths smaller diameter so you don't need an ungodly amount of pressure to get them through the die. The funny thing is, I think the Fed cases make the best bullets because the cases ARE thicker. I have a feeling that the reason some of the bullets didn't hit paper is they may have come apart and didn't make it to the target. I've had that happen with Remington jackets that I tried to shoot over 3000 fps in a 1-10 twist barrel. You didn't say how fast you were shooting your test rounds. You should be able to go faster though in a 1-14 twist without problems but how much faster I don't know. I don't own a rifle with that twist. When you say the CCI cases made the most inconsistent bullets, do you mean the length of the jackets were inconsistent? If so, that goes back to the derim punch again. The overly fat punch will cause the case to draw (stretch). IF you can get or make another derim punch and use the thicker cases, you'll probably have less problems shooting them faster so that they'll stabilize in the slower twist barrel. I'm sure your groups will improve once you get the speed right.
Looking for some help improving the accuracy of my 22 projectiles. I am the proud owner of a set of BT’s 22lr to 22cf dies. I followed his directions to the best of my ability and after several attempts and getting all the dies set up I am producing 22 bullets that consistently weigh in at 56gr give or take about 2 tenths of a grain. So on the light end bullets weigh 55.8 and the heavy end 56.2.

I have already sorted out all the brass marked “F” because these take an ungodly amount of effort to derim. Also weeded out all the brass marked “C” because they resulted in the most inconsistent bullets. Basically I am left with “Rem” brass and Winchester brass for swaging.

My test rifle is a Winchester model 70 in 22-250 with a 1-14 twist. All my load components are old stand byes, i.e. full length sized Winchester brass, Varget powder, and a CCI bench rest large rifle primer. C.O.L. is the max at 2.350”. As I always do with load development I start off at the suggested starting weight and increase 1/10 of a grain at a time.

All this being said I am having real accuracy issues. All five shot groups measure 6 or more inches at 100 yards and pretty consistently only 4 of the 5 bullets hit the paper. Is the 22-250 just to hot a round for a brass jackets? Could my 1-14 twist not be enough? The holes in the paper where round with no signs of key holing and the same rifle shoots 55gr factory bullets with ¾” at 100 yards. Looking for advice and recommendations.

[Guardian]

If you aren't familiar with the Creighton Audette ladder test method for load development, that may help you as well. http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf

I've found it uses a whole lot less time and materials to get me to the answer. This method would also give you an idea of what velocity the bullets start disintegrating, if that is indeed happening.

[Cane_man]

what type of groups do you get with this rifle using factory bullets?

[fredj338]

Something isn't right, maybe the cores not fully seated? My first run, sorted by wt, went under 1 1/2" for 5 @ 100 from my 20" AR hvy, no load development. I did have a couple not make paper, but did cross the chrono @ 3100fps+/-.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/22lr-223firstgroup_zps54ed688c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/22lr-223firstgroup_zps54ed688c.jpg.html)

[Zymurgy50]

Clean the cores and jackets before core seating, any lube on the core or the inside of the jacket at this step will result in the jacket not grabbing the core.
The recommended velocities for this type of thin jacketed bullet run from 3200fps. DOWN! Sometimes you may find a firearm that can push the thin wall jacket at higher velocity, but it is kinda rare.
R.C.E. offers a jacket variety pack, 100 each of 3 different lengths for the .224 for under $20. I would suggest you get some J4 jackets to try in your 22-250.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

If you aren't familiar with the Creighton Audette ladder test method for load development, that may help you as well. http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf

I've found it uses a whole lot less time and materials to get me to the answer. This method would also give you an idea of what velocity the bullets start disintegrating, if that is indeed happening.

Thank you that looks like an awesome method that I will have to try.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

what type of groups do you get with this rifle using factory bullets?

Hornady 52gr BTHP match bullets will group 3/8" at 100yards.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Clean the cores and jackets before core seating, any lube on the core or the inside of the jacket at this step will result in the jacket not grabbing the core.
The recommended velocities for this type of thin jacketed bullet run from 3200fps. DOWN! Sometimes you may find a firearm that can push the thin wall jacket at higher velocity, but it is kinda rare.
R.C.E. offers a jacket variety pack, 100 each of 3 different lengths for the .224 for under $20. I would suggest you get some J4 jackets to try in your 22-250.

I think that is my problem I didn't clean my my cores after running them thru the bleed die. I will start over, this time with a 223. and get that to shoot well and then move back to the 22-250. Thanks for all the help.

[kweidner]

I think that is my problem I didn't clean my my cores after running them thru the bleed die. I will start over, this time with a 223. and get that to shoot well and then move back to the 22-250. Thanks for all the help.


Yes sir you may be on to it there. I degrease mine with acetone. it also etches them a bit for a better grab. I also re tumble jackets in ss after anneal and after point form. No way to get lube in jacket that way.

[Utah Shooter]

I think that is my problem I didn't clean my my cores after running them thru the bleed die. I will start over, this time with a 223. and get that to shoot well and then move back to the 22-250. Thanks for all the help.

If you have not been cleaning them after the squirt off you definitely need to start. I bet that IS the problem. Also try to use motor oil for lube on the core squirt process. Works just as well as Lanolin and way easier to clean off.

[BT Sniper]

Sounds like you got some good advise. Make sure your cores are clean from all lube for sure. Make sure jackets are clean too.

The 14 twist should be great for these bullets. How fast (fps) was your starting load? I would certainly think you should be able to get under 1MOA. I got .75 from my 223 @ 3500 FPS and that is a 9 twist. I settled on a lot milder load then this though. I think the 14 twist should be even better for these bullets.

Try clean cores and jackets, then try a mild load to start with and work up from there. Any published starting load should work well then work up from there. I am certain you will find a good load, probably need to slow it down a little to start with though.

Keep us posted.

BT

[pogo123]

You may be shooting your bullets far too fast. My best accuracies were under 2850 fps, and groups opened up wide above that speed at a frightening rate. It was twist rate related, and I usually shot from a 1/9 or sometimes a 1/12 barrel. I am stunned at sub-MOA results at 3500 fps from a 1/9 barrel as it does not seem possible in my experience.

Yeah, the first thing I would check is the cores and brass are CLEAN of lube. I did a triple rinse of a solvent with my cores and boiled the bejeesus out of my .22 brass/jackets to remove as much primer fouling as possible.

I thought I may have had too large a derimming punch, but after making one as small as I could, and stand to look at the rim wrinkle left over, I did not get much better results. Anyhow, 2850 fps made for fairly explosive effects on popcans and it was economical on powder.

[BT Sniper]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080379_zpse0241e22.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/BTSniper/media/P1080379_zpse0241e22.jpg.html)

There was the .7 moa @ 100 @ 3500 fps with the 6s 55 grain brass jacketed bullets out of my Savage 12 223 with the 26" 9 twist barrel. Obvious reloading precautions apply here as it was safe in my gun but may not be in yours. At 28 grains of powder I popped two primers out of the three shots and stopped there.

I took this load out PD hunting this spring but it was too hot of load and too hot of day = too much pressure. I am better off loading for 3300 fps or 3100 fps rather then push it too much. I was simply testing the ability of the bullet to hold together at max FPS with the load and group shot above.

It can be done. Keep at it with the 22-250 and your 14 twist. Make sure your barrel is clean to start with too.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

That document is so important that I give a copy of it to each and every one of my reloading students. Great suggestion.


If you aren't familiar with the Creighton Audette ladder test method for load development, that may help you as well. http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf

I've found it uses a whole lot less time and materials to get me to the answer. This method would also give you an idea of what velocity the bullets start disintegrating, if that is indeed happening.

[Prospector Howard]

Maybe the "directions" that come with the dies should mention cleaning the cores if you're lubing them for the core swage die. Others comparing groups they're getting with rifles with much faster twist barrels isn't a very fair comparison. It is pretty widely known that the 22-250 with the 1-14 twist, shoots the best with 50-55 gr bullets with speeds between 3300 to 3700 fps. I have a family member and a friend that both have 1-14 twist 22-250 rifles, and they don't "load down" for the best accuracy and groups. With that twist, the speed needs to be up there for bullets in that weight and length to stabilize properly. If you want to shoot your home swaged bullets with .22 brass jackets in that rifle, I'll suggest again that you try to use the thicker Federal and CCI cases so you can get the speed right with less chance of problems. I don't know for sure (since I wasn't there) what the reason is for some of the bullets not making it to the target. The only two reasons would be, some of them came apart; or the accuracy was so bad that you missed the target completely. Making sure the cores are clean before seating them is definitely important, but I'm not sure that's the only reason for the problems you had with this rifle.

[steady1]

I'm new too. learned a lot from trial and error. Federals are harder to derim. After about 800 pieces thru the press, they feed better, but tough. I will save the worn punch for the federals in the future. Get new punch and do the others.

I seat the lead cores into the jackets to get .2235 OD. Then, I point form after I get a batch ready. Keep the lube on the base of the bullet. I even rag wipe the top to min lube on the point. They come out clean.

[Wolftracker]

I haven't had much trouble with federals. If you can get the right de-rim die adjustment. I have had very good luck using a "pusher." Start the clean and lubed case into the die, about half way or slightly more, then pull out and place a smaller diameter push pin (I need to measure mine I guess) into the partially de-rimmed case and push the jacket the rest fo the way through. I have very few failures this way and it isn't hard to push the case through. As for accuracy, that is probably more to do with the rifle, twist, and load and, in my case, the limitations of the shooter. I know this may sound slow, but once you get a routine going, it isn't too bad.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Thank you all! I took and tried to follow most of your great advice. I made up 50 bullets out of federal cases and they weigh right at 55gr. I loaded up 20 rounds of 223 with 24gr of Varget and I will use these as "followers" and to get my new AR upper on paper and broken in. I also loaded up 20 more 223 rounds using the "ladder method" with 1/10 of a grain increments. I'll have to see if I can't sneak out to the range tomorrow for some testing.

[Utah Shooter]

Please give an update. Despite what anyone else says I really think removing that lube will be the start to your success.

[Lizard333]

As far as the lube on your cores. Acetone takes it right off. I keep a little glass jelly jar and lid around to remove the lube. Add your cores and enough acetone to cover and slosh it around. Pour out the excess and allow to dry on a towel.

Next, which I think is even more important than lube on your cores is the core seating step. Now, keep in mind, I don't have BT's dies but the process should be the same. When seating your cores, you should be getting a slight pressure ring where the top of the core and the jacket meet in the jacket. It will be lighter. Got too much pressure, and you will split the jacket in two. If your not occasional splitting jackets and cores, riding that thin line, your not seating your cores with enough pressure.

This is where sorting by brand/weight pays off. I just did a batch of Eley brass, over 500 hundred rounds, and they were by far the MOST consistent brass I have ever swaged. Zero problems, not even a single folder tip or pop off.

By far, core seating is probly where your needing some work. There is definitely a feel you have to develop. If your core is not seated correctly, your bullets are ****. Period.

Basically, you should be taking the most time during this step. I pause for a beat on each one. Now, I'll admit, it took a couple thousand rounds before I figured out the feel. You guys will have a learning curve, acknowledge that, accept it it, and move on.
If you have someone that lives next to you, visit them and learn all you can. It took me two 10 plus hour days with Blaster62 before I even got my press. Even then, it was still a couple months before my bullets were worth shooting.

Good luck

[garandsrus]

Lizard,

I have never heard of anyone splitting a jacket in a core seating die. How could it even happen? The jacket is fully supported in the die. You seem to be using a whole lot more seating pressure than I do and what the instructions I have read suggest.

Have you bent any punches?

Thanks...

[Prospector Howard]

Have to agree with garandsrus here. Occasionally splitting the jackets? Never had that happen even with ALOT of pressure seating the core. What dies and press are you using, Lizard? Man you're going to break something. Also, I've never noticed worse accuracy and my bullets aren't **** by using a normal amount of pressure seating the cores.

[Reload3006]

I have split a few jackets. I use the same set up as Lizzard. Instead of relying of feel I use a micrometer. Period. I do not care how good you think you can feel something if you think you can you are fooling yourself. Its been proven over and over and over again by many different disciplines. Do not rely on feel it just is not that consistent. I agree however segregate your brass by brand it will be the most consistent that way. seat a core and then measure with a micrometer that has a vernier scale (IMO that is not even accurate enough) when you are the same od as the ID of your die usually on a .224 set that will be .2235 to .2238 if your seated jacket/core measure that the move to the point form die you are as good as you are going to get. Make sure to set your press up at cam-over so you are repeating each round like the one before it. Consistency is the key here.

[Lizard333]

Reload3006 is right about using the micrometer as well. I do the same. As far as the splits, this is what I mean

83773

I'm using a swaging press, built for swaging. Not a reloading press, meant for reloading. Yes, those presses can be modified but the were never meant to be put through the paces like they are being used.

As far as breaking anything, never. Again, using dies made for swaging in a swaging press, it just works.

Once your core expands out, your good to go.

[Prospector Howard]

I guess that shows how much leverage and pressure you can get out of a dedicated swaging press. I think I'll stick to my Lee Classic Cast press. I don't think I could ever get enough pressure out of it to do that. Pushing things to the edge has never been my "thing" though. Using soft pure lead for the core and a "good" amount of consistent pressure has always worked fine.

[Prospector Howard]

Lizard, I had a thought last night. Do you remember when Mustang had that incident where he shot the core out of the bullet leaving the jacket in the bore? We both asked him about why the jacket he pulled out of the bore looked so short. I have a feeling that the jacket was almost split, like the picture above but still held together while the bullet was being made. Then when he shot it, the split finished; and the end of the jacket went out with the core. Most major failures happen because of multiple reasons, and the base of the bullet probably had a defect that contributed to it also. It's something that didn't make sense to me, and that could be what happened.

[garandsrus]

Reload3006 is right about using the micrometer as well. I do the same. As far as the splits, this is what I mean

I'm using a swaging press, built for swaging. Not a reloading press, meant for reloading. Yes, those presses can be modified but the were never meant to be put through the paces like they are being used.

As far as breaking anything, never. Again, using dies made for swaging in a swaging press, it just works.

Once your core expands out, your good to go.

Lizard,

Your case "splits" seem to be fairly consistent in two different places. Any idea why?

The Corbin instructions I have read and followed do talk about only using enough core seating pressure to expand the jacket/core. However, there is some springback which allows the case to eject and results in a diameter a few .0001 less than the die internal dimension. If you and reload3006 are expanding to exactly match the die diameter (how do you measure the die diameter?), how much effort is required to eject the seated core? It should be stuck pretty tight in the die.

I would think that the only way to exactly match the die diameter with a seated core is to use enough pressure to slightly expand the die when it's under pressure so that the die and core both spring back the same when pressure is removed.

Thanks...

[BLASTER62]

Lizard,

I have never heard of anyone splitting a jacket in a core seating die. How could it even happen? The jacket is fully supported in the die. You seem to be using a whole lot more seating pressure than I do and what the instructions I have read suggest.

Have you bent any punches?

Thanks...

You can split core's in two ways blow the bottoms out in the boat tail operation & core seat will cut the jacket just above the lead. This happens because there is too much pressure applied to that operation ( punch set too deep ), i have a Corbin S & Hydro press they will both break bullets and dies. I broke a die on the S press Cracked all the way down. When you set up you have to make small adjustments and mike the bullet to the die size IE 264 core swage aprox .26335 the bullet must move free no rough spots. If you are point forming you should go around say .26440 to .26450 pressure ring at base, like for RBT bullets, this operation must be steady and constant very little lube on bullet. Also the brass or copper must be clean and smooth to make good bullets and save wear on your dies. This is my 2 cents worth. B

[MTSWAGER]

WOW those splits are crazy, I would think way to much pressure seating the core?

A few things i have run into are

1. wear on the punch used for deriming. I did a large lot of jackets about 7000. As the punch wore the grove around the top, it would start leaving the rings around the jacket where it pressed the rim in, also as this wore, the jackets got shorter, It took some time to figure out what was going on.
Now i run about 1000-1200 and then take the punch to the belt sander, so their is no ring worn in the punch at all, its just starting to get a slight ring at about 1000-1200 cases. I have run about 11000 more jackets with this process, my jackets now are very clean looking, hardly any with rings, or a real slight ring. also the length of the jackets are way way way more consistent. i was amazed.

2. when i seat my core, i lower the punch to just expand the jacket tight enough to allow the punch to pull from the jacket. As the punch presses down, the jacket and lead expand in the die, but the top part of the jacket is still snug on the punch (corbin punch). If i press a core, and it stays on the punch, i move the punch down a tiny bit at a time, until it stays in the die, and i dont go any more.

Now with these two things, I think making a good jacket, is the key to accuracy. I have very uniform jackets now, if they are all real close in length, i would assume they are all real close in thickness, this is why the jackets would get shorter as the derim punch wore, it was moving the material (rim) into the bottom of the jacket, instead of drawing it down the jacket, thus the longer jackets with a fresh punch. I have noticed with the uniform jackets, pressing cores is a lot more consistent, along with running them into the point form die, the pressure to swage, and the pressure to press the bullet out of the die, is very consistent now, along with the overall length of the finished bullet. Making 59.6 grain bullets.

Just a few things i have learned apon the way. Might help someone out!!

I am using mixed cases with the F sorted out. I have no problems with accuracy, shoot under 1 inch out of my ARs easy peasy.

[ronaldod]

WOW those splits are crazy, I would think way to much pressure seating the core?

A few things i have run into are

1. wear on the punch used for deriming. I did a large lot of jackets about 7000. As the punch wore the grove around the top, it would start leaving the rings around the jacket where it pressed the rim in, also as this wore, the jackets got shorter, It took some time to figure out what was going on.


Fixed this problem with an ultrasonic cleaner. Before I saw a lot of wear after 2000 jackets and now almost nothing.