Going to try to make jackets with boat tail Stage 1 Drawing the cup

[DAVE A]

Hello everyone I'm going to make a set of jacket drawing dies and it occurred to me that if a jacket could be made with a boat tail then you could still make a flat base bullet but it would save time making boat tail bullets I may be wrong but I thought it might be worth ago so here goes for stage 1http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/ugajedav.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/zynyzybe.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/dy8abu4e.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/04/abebebyr.jpg

[jgt]

You can make a boattail bullet by using a boattail shaped die in the seating process using standard jackets and core. Then when forming the point you need to use a point forming die with a boattail shape for the base or it will swage a flat base while point forming. If you start with a boattail jacket, you will need a boattail core, No? Seems like extra unnecessary steps to take.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have made a boat tail like bullet with my 44 dies by placing the base of the bullet in the nose forming die. Really no use for my 44 shooting but was something to do.

[DAVE A]

I have a set of rebated boat tail dies from Corbins it is a three die set and the first die is used to seat the core and form a boat tail the second forms the rebate and the third the point but I never liked using the first die and it was always a problem for me right up until the day it went crack and now I'm stuck making only flat based bullets so I thought as I'm going to make the jacket drawing dies anyway why not see if I can pre boat tail them this would solve my problem and I can always make a boat tail core swage die .

[aaronraad]

Dave

Preforming the boat-tail is very useful. jgt is right and this does mean extra steps, but if you're looking for a higher quality finish then I believe they are steps worth taking. I'm currently getting a punch made up to preform the boat-tail on jackets in the core seating dies, ala Bob Simonson style.

I'll be tracking your progress.

Aaron

[plus1hdcp]

Let me preface this by saying I have no experience in making dies but I would suggest you consider making your punch for the core bleed step into the same boat-tail dimension of your cup. I think this would reduce the pressure required when seating the core. Just a thought but I look forward to following your progress.

[DAVE A]

I read on another forum about performing a boat tail on the jacket and making a boat tailed core for more accurate bullets it's what gave me the idea for my dies ,
Work commitments have kept me away from my lathe recently and progress has been slow ,I managed to get the second stage die completed today but it did not go well I tried to make do with the metal I have to hand but it is only 22mm OD and isn't up to the pressure involved and as a result it expanded during the drawing effectively ruining it ,I did however manage to draw some jackets and I think when the new die is made I will be back on track.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/a2yby3ev.jpg

[DAVE A]

I've made a bit more progress today ,I made a new die and punch the punch is tapered and doesn't draw such a long jacket but the wall thickness is very concentric better than I expected ,not much of a boat tail yet but now I know it works I can play around with different punch shapes ,
I made the mistake of annealing the cups without cleaning off the swage lube first and my tumbler didn't make a very good job of cleaning them after so I may have to make a ss tumbler for the next lot of jackets .
There are a couple of videos of this on YouTube for anyone that's interested but I wouldn't know where to begin posting them here just look for making bullet jackets .
Thanks
Davehttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/aqyretep.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/udute7yt.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/enamagen.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/ygevuvet.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/5e3e9uru.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/dydy8ata.jpg

[aaronraad]

Good stuff Dave! [smilie=w:

I hope you don't kick too many more rocks on the way up the hill.

[DAVE A]

Thanks Aaron I suppose if I didn't make any mistakes I'd never learn anything, the good news is I'm learning so much right now.

[Sasquatch-1]

Before you waste time and money making a wet tumbler, try giving the jackets a HOT citric acid bath for a couple of hours the tumble them. I do this with my brass casing jackets. After tumbling over night in the vibratory tumbler I get some very good results. I do this after I have finished the bullet.


I made the mistake of annealing the cups without cleaning off the swage lube first and my tumbler didn't make a very good job of cleaning them after so I may have to make a ss tumbler for the next lot of jackets .

[DAVE A]

Thanks for that I will give it a try
Dave

[DAVE A]

A big thank you to Sasquatch for the citric acid tip it worked wonders ,
Progress has been very slow on the jacket making dies and I've realised that trying to form a boat tail during the drawing process is causing some inconsistency on the bases and as the main goal for me is a supply of good quality jackets I've decided to concentrate on getting that right first ,
I've been playing around with different punch and die combinations and I think I'm just one step away from my final aim of a 1.25" 30 cal jacket.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/27/sudy3e8u.jpg

[Sasquatch-1]

I appreciate the thanks, but the method I gave you came from this site originally. I just know what it's like to try and search through all the old post to find what you are looking for.

[Tikka308]

Dave - Nice job on the very even draw on those jackets. In my (brief, recent) experience, the jackets haven't been nearly as even, especially in the second draw. I have to think this is due to something being uneven: either the concentricity of the punch and/or die or it not being pushed through evenly which would be caused by a slightly sloppy guide bushing (i'm just using an arbor press, so there's no forced-alignment like there is in a swaging or reloading press)

[DAVE A]

I finally got a chance this weekend to make a bit more progress on my jacket drawing dies and I am quite happy with the results ,there is a little bit more work to do but I think I am well on the way to making some very accurate jackets.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/04/apa5e6y8.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/04/8a9abeda.jpg

[supe47]

Nice work.

[DAVE A]

Made a pinch trim die today I may alter the angle of the top punch but it makes a nice clean cuthttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/09/sagyseja.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/09/2ydeqyve.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/09/8etudyve.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/09/danegype.jpg

[plus1hdcp]

Looking real good

[Artful]

You and HollowPoint ought to compare notes.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185954-BOAT-TAILED-Gas-Check-Update-Teaser

[DAVE A]

Thanks for the link
Dave

[DAVE A]

Finally got to make some bullets and I'm quite happy with the resultshttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/11/a3e7emeq.jpg

[plus1hdcp]

You should be very happy with the results. Two thumbs up!! They look outstanding.

[DAVE A]

Thank you very much I couldn't be more pleased
Dave

[supe47]

Very nice. Homemade jackets from homemade dies. You have to be proud.

[DAVE A]

Thank you I am very proud of these dies especially since until very recently I had no machining experience whatsoever
Dave

[CastingFool]

those look real good. I'm kinda jealous. I worked as a machinist, but don't own a lathe. Wouldn't have room for one in my shop, anyway.

[Tikka308]

Dave - looking real nice!! I call "BS" - no prior machining experience?!

[DAVE A]

Ok you got me,I spent six months at a tec college thirty two years ago where I made a mini vice that I still use today
In all honesty any skills and knowledge I have relating to machining have all been gained in the last year and a half as a result of finding the Cast Boolits forum, I'd just taken the plunge and bought some Corbin swaging equipment( I dont regret buying the equipment its fantastic quality but I wish I had found this site first ) I couldn't believe some of the things you guys were making so I decided to join in and I bought myself a Chinese mini lathe and discovered three things 1 precision engineering is actually quite difficult ( who knew ) 2 I was not a machinist and 3 neither is a Chinese mini lathe I am however an electrician and I don't like to get beaten so I converted my flimsy little lathe to cnc with a much bigger motor ballscrews and precision profile rails and made a cnc mill attachment while I was at it and now I'm still not a machinist but every time I make something I get a little bit better and the scrap bucket isn't quite so full,
Thanks all
Dave.

[hardcase54]

Dave, retired electrician here, those are not scrape but " I'll finish that later". I have a very large bucket filled with it.

[DAVE A]

Yes that's what I meant it must be my accent !

[blaser.306]

I read on a machining website that machinists do not make mistakes! They simply have a bucket full of prototypes for future consideration!!!

[DAVE A]

I made a lead wire extruding die today
Self sufficiency gets closer every dayhttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/16/rapa9uju.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/16/a5uqe2aj.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/16/teza7e4y.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/16/ybugaqad.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/16/2yjyve6e.jpg

[Cane_man]

looks great Dave!

do you know what the ogive and meplat measure?

[DAVE A]

Thanks Cane man the ogive is 6s but when I made the bullets I was just testing the jackets and as I hadn't swaged a bullet for over a year I didn't want to push it to far ,the final jacket has had one more anneal and I've made a tipping die so the me plat should end up quite small.
Dave

[DAVE A]

I finally got to shoot some of my own bullets this weekend, I made 3 sizes 154 164 and 175grain the 154 has a 1.150"jacket and the 164 and 175 have a 1.200" jacket .
I'm not quite sure how I feel about the results ,if I'm honest I had hoped for better the 154grainers were hopeless and I couldn't get any grouping at all the other two were much better but I still have a lot to do although I haven't done any load development yet but I think the jackets may need more annealing to keep them all consistenthttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/13/vaqa4uze.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/13/zy5y2upe.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/13/a9aqanam.jpg
The rifle is a Howa 1500 Varmint with no modifications but when I get it right this is what it can dohttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/13/tyjetusa.jpg
Dave

[customcutter]

I wish I had that type of "no machining skills". Very impressive, I hadn't seen this thread. I'll have to think about making my own jackets if I go to 6.5 or 7mm.

[DAVE A]

Thanks CC these dies seem to have taken me forever to finish but I think the results are promising however I have an idea how to make them better and easier to use ,a hydraulic press would still be needed but the results would be a very concentric jacket ,
If you do decide to make your own jackets I will be glad to offer any assistance I can.
Dave.

[R.Ph. 380]

Dave, what was your point forming die? To close that meplat, what did you use?

Bill

[DAVE A]

Bill my point form die is a 6 ogive from Corbin with a 0.091" ejection hole to reduce the meplat I slightly over form the bullet to produce a small stove pipe use a meplat trimmer to tidy up the hole and then use a tipping die to close it up a bit, The longer the stove pipe is the smaller the me plat can go.
Dave

[Prospector Howard]

Excellent work Dave. I'd say those were pretty good groups for your first outing with them. Even the 154's weren't that bad. Your rifle may just like the heavier bullets better. It's pretty dang neat to be able to make bullets that good completely from scratch. The thing that's held me back from going this route is the cost of copper sheet. I'm too cheap, and the scrap brass for jackets seemed the way to go. When you pinch trim them to length, how consistent are the weights of the jackets?

[DAVE A]

Thank you for the encouragement the price of copper is a factor for me also I am in the process of making a guillotine to cut my own strips which should bring the cost down , there is also the resale value of the scrap to bring costs down a bit more
Most of the finished bullets varied in weight by only 2 or 3 tents of a grain but every so often there would be a very heavy or very light one by as much as a grain and it's this that makes me think that the annealing process could be done better but over all I am quite pleased for a first attempt
Thanks again
Dave