It's official! 22 lr are now more expensive than rolling your own!

[singleshot]

Ok, I've been shopping around for 22 lr ammo for my kids rifles. Even though I have a decent reserve, I can't find it cheaper than $.10/round. I can load any of my pistol cartridges for less than that now with cast boolits, even paying $.04 ea for primers. Is it worth having a 22 lr anymore?

[DBH45]

If this is going to be the norm, then I would say no. But how many shooters reload?

[dbosman]

Rifle or pistol?
For a pistol, a used .38 revolver is about a inexpensive as one can get.

For a rifle, I predict pistol cartridge carbines are going to get really scarce, soon.

Can anyone with knowledge offer an opinion of the possibility of any manufacturer selling a new $150 or less pistol caliber rifle?

[JeffinNZ]

Nothing new there. If you can score lead for free or cheap and use small doses of powder then it has been cheaper for a long time. My subsonic .32-20 loads use a primer and 4gr of powder. Not much cost there.

[MOcaster]

My main use of 22 lrs is to use the brass to swage jacketed 22 bullets.

[curator]

I can reload .38 special for less than 8 cents per round. .22 ammo is 10 to 14 cents per round. All the hype about converting to .22 is lost when the ammo is non-existent or expensive. My guess is the .22 rim fire hoarders will stop buying because their ammo cases are full, full, full. Then the ammo manufactures who have put on extra shifts will create a glut and ammo prices will fall to get rid of the surplus. Prices will plummet to less than cost and gradually the manufacturers will normalize the price at cost plus a thin XX percentage profit. There after, assuming political stability, all will be well again and .22s will be plentiful and inexpensive. (Maybe not in Californica Illinoid, New Yawk, and Taxachussets) Now if Billory is elected in 2016, all bets are off.

[quilbilly]

Last winter when I started shooting my "new" 222 Contender barrel, I ran the numbers and it was cheaper to shoot the 222 with gas checks than any 22LR I have seen recently.

[NoZombies]

Yeah, I load .45 acp ammo for less than I can buy .22 ammo. I'm getting a 9mm so that I can use half as much lead.

[Lefty Red]

I was looking at trying to find a 32 H&R Mag Single Six, now I am doubling the effort! I still see hoarders "meeting the truck" at a few places and buying everything they can at once!

Lefty

[possom813]

I just did the math with the handloading cost calculator

http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

I can load my .30-30 plinking rounds for right at 7 cents each. 130gr pb boolit with 7.0grs of trail boss pushing it.

[uscra112]

I can reload .38 special for less than 8 cents per round. .22 ammo is 10 to 14 cents per round. All the hype about converting to .22 is lost when the ammo is non-existent or expensive. My guess is the .22 rim fire hoarders will stop buying because their ammo cases are full, full, full. Then the ammo manufactures who have put on extra shifts will create a glut and ammo prices will fall to get rid of the surplus. Prices will plummet to less than cost and gradually the manufacturers will normalize the price at cost plus a thin XX percentage profit. There after, assuming political stability, all will be well again and .22s will be plentiful and inexpensive. (Maybe not in Californica Illinoid, New Yawk, and Taxachussets) Now if Billory is elected in 2016, all bets are off.

I wonder if there'll ever be a glut. If I were an ammo-industry bean counter, I'd be thinking to feed more supply back into the system very slowly, and enjoy the high prices as long as I could. What with the current administration's attitude to imports of ammo, they can probably play this game for a long while.

[captaint]

Prices on 22 ammo WILL normalize. It is gonna take some time though. We all just need to buy as little as humanly possible - stick to that - sooner or later it will come down. Might be later, but it will happen. In the mean time, I'll load & shoot my 9's and 45's. Hell, I can still load 45's for around 4 bux a box. I don't pay for lead, it's just the primers & powder. Oh, the pain !!!! Mike

[imashooter2]

On Monday I took delivery of 2100 Federal Blue Box at 5.7 cents a round from Cabela's. They threw in a new ammo can to boot. .22LR is out there for less than a dime a shot right now. It isn't easy to find, but it is there.

[Garyshome]

Go to WalMart in the morning every day until you get what you need! Pretty good price too.

['74 sharps]

Could care less if I ever fire another 22lr round. Not only is it less expensive to roll your own centerfire rounds, it's more fun to shoot a bigger bore cartridge.

[felix]

The only 22s "worth" the money are those that make no noise, such as saying the maximum decibels allowed would be equivalent to the use of a pellet gun. 710 foot per second 22 rounds do exactly that! 720 fps rounds using any other caliber would be far too noisy for citywide backyard entertainment. The problem is the supersonic detonation of primers, center or rim fire. ... felix

[John Boy]

Is it worth having a 22 lr anymore?
For me - Yes.
I reload 22LR with black powder. Was lucky enough to obtain 5000 primed empty cases for $98.00. My calculated cost is $0.066 per round. Plus there is no retail source for black powder 22LR rounds - especially with the 1897 UMC Match bullets that were made from a custom David Mos mold

[singleshot]

The only 22s "worth" the money are those that make no noise, such as saying the maximum decibels allowed would be equivalent to the use of a pellet gun. 710 foot per second 22 rounds do exactly that! 720 fps rounds using any other caliber would be far too noisy for citywide backyard entertainment. The problem is the supersonic detonation of primers, center or rim fire. ... felix

Seems like a 22 hornet would fill that bill. Anybody still make a repeating 22 hornet?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The truth is that the ammo is out there but very spotty in location, selection, and cost. Three weeks ago a friend and I went to Kentucky Gun in Bardstown on a whim and VOILA ! Wolf MATCH TARGET at $55 a brick plus tax, 2 brick limit. He got 2 bricks. A week later we visited our LGS and there was armscor SVLR at $3 a box, limit 5 boxes, and over the next 8 days I got a bit over two bricks, a limit at a time, (shop in town). Now I don't target shoot 22s, but only enough to establish ammo quality for a rifle for head shooting squirrels. That isn't a bad deal, because the first brick of armscor was MT equal and if the other lot isn't in the trainer it will likely be very good in something else.

To he// with wally, the three brick limit is bait to bring suckers into the sporting goods department. And yes I can shoot green dot reduced loads in 222/223 for .06 a pop using match primers and quality j-words, cheaper than my Mag

BvT

Turns out, in my CZ trainer, the armscor shoots exactly as good as the wolf he purchased, in the first of the bricks I put together by lot number. I have yet to try the other.

[felix]

Singleshot, the primer might be too loud unless compensated severely by a very long barrel, or by having a short barrel with a "can". ... felix

[Tazman1602]

Go to WalMart in the morning every day until you get what you need! Pretty good price too.


Being stripped of the ability to defend yourself makes you “safe”.

..............Try factoring gas into that at $3.50/gallon when the nearest Wally World is 18 miles away.............

Just sayin'......................

Art

[Prospector Howard]

I was talking to a buddy of mine the other day about the .22 lack of availability and price. I've come to the conclusion that this B.S. is on purpose. These scum in charge of things are making it nearly impossible to get .22 for a reason. It's like that Eric Wangholder said about changing the culture against guns. The .22 has always been the entry level round to get youngsters interested and train in the shooting sports. If they can make it harder or impossible to get .22, then they are half way there. I hope I'm wrong on this, and the price and availability come back to normal; but I wouldn't count on it. Just look at all the insane stuff coming out of this out of control gooberment.

[Eddie2002]

Been "rolling my own" for about 6 months, first for my Ruger .380 ACP when prices hit $25.00 per box of 50 and then for my 30-06 and 7.7 Jap after I picked up a Lee 100 grain mould for plinkers. I'm using resized range brass, mainly 270 Winchester and around 6 grains of Bullseye or Greendot. .22 ammo is going for around 8-10 cents a round in my area if you can find it and I'm reloading my center fire rifles for 5 cents a round. Not a big difference but still helps keep the cost of shooting down. Can't understand why .22 ammo has become so hard to get unless P Howard is right and the libs are trying to restrict the entry level younger shooters with ammo costs.

[Beagle333]

Remington box of 525 here, $19.99 (3.8 cents/ea) at Gander Mtn, but line was out the door and they were gone in 7 minutes. (Didn't even get close to the counter before they were gone.)


[oh, and primers here are $4.30/100, any size..... so the 22lr would be cheaper ]

[EMC45]

Still cheaper for me to shoot .38 Special, .32 S&W-L, and 9MM. Has been for a while. I rather shoot CF anyway, better reliability and consistency.

[fredj338]

For me, been cheaper for a few years to shoot any service caliber using cast lead bullets. I can load 100 9mm, 40, 45acp for less than 100 22lr @ $4/100 using todays prices. Bought Win primers lst month for $30/K out the door. My last 8# jug of WST in Jan worked out to $18/# delivered, so right @ 1c/round, total 4c/rd.

[fredj338]

I wonder if there'll ever be a glut. If I were an ammo-industry bean counter, I'd be thinking to feed more supply back into the system very slowly, and enjoy the high prices as long as I could. What with the current administration's attitude to imports of ammo, they can probably play this game for a long while.
I doubt it. Ammo is a consumable, so unless most are buying to hoard, doubtful, then it gets shot & they need more. I shoot IDPA every Sat, 1bout 150rds, & many shooters are shooting factory. That has to be replaced monthly for most. More gun owners come on line every month & will continue as long as Obama & the libs keep pushing gun control.

[fecmech]

Centerfire pistol calibers for casters have always been as cheap as promotional bulk .22 ammo. I have primers purchased in the past 3 yrs none of which exceeded $30/k and most averaged $25/k. My Bullseye and Unique bought in the same time frame averaged $13./lb. So my powder and primer cost per round is approx $.033 per rd and the bullet adds less than a penny for me. Old bulkpack prices for .22's were in the $16-$18 range for 500 so by the time you add in the tax cheap .22's cost the same as good centerfire pistol ammo. Good standard velocity .22 ammo has always been more expensive than CF ammo. Granted you have the labor and equipment for casting and loading but I've been doing this for 40 years. My equipment paid for itself long ago. I never cared that much for shooting .22's anyway, kind of like kissing your sister.

[dverna]

If I want to shoot cheaply (and who doesn't). I use 9mm cast bullets with Promo powder and Tula primers bought before things went nuts. Cost is under $2.50 a box assuming 4 reloads per case and cases at $30/1000. Many people forget to factor in the cost of cases - they are not free - and even if they are, they have value and can be sold.

.22's will never go out of favor. Reloading is not for everyone. Sorting and cleaning brass, casting bullets, lubing/sizing and then loading them up is fun for some - not for all. I recall telling people that I could shoot a brick of 500 .22's for $15 and have a ball for hours. That is cheap fun. Now, that brick is over $40 - but prices will come back down.

I have three pistol carbines and shoot .38's for the same cost as 9mm. Cases are more expensive, but I have thousands and will never outlive the stash I have - so I am set.

Don Verna

[dudel]

Rifle or pistol?
Can anyone with knowledge offer an opinion of the possibility of any manufacturer selling a new $150 or less pistol caliber rifle?

Handi-Rifles can be had new for about $200. Used, they come into your range. Mine in 38Spl, 357Mag and 357Max shoots great.

[luis7]

Hello.
I´m paying 0.13$ per rd (cci std vel blue box) and I can reload 9mm or 38 sp for about 0.10$ per rd.
España it´s different and more expensive :|
Greetings.

[1Shirt]

Can't have to many 22LR, or for that matter, 38S, or 357's, or 380's, or 9MM, or 44S, or 44 Mag, or 45ACP! It is all a matter of perspective. Sort of a "get what ya can get while the getting is good!" or maybe go without. And that includes components.
1Shirt!

[inspector_17]

Still getting my primers and powder at close to pre panic prices. 22lr is still hard to find. Fed Match at LGS I have seen at $30+ per 325 box. I generally get mine at WW. Still 18.97 per box, but a 3 box limit.

[451whitworth]

I worked part time at a sporting goods store for 6.5 years prior to Obama being elected. Except for shotshells, all ammo was behind the counter. Working 16-20 hours per week for that 6.5 years there really wasn't huge 22LR ammo sales. I sold way more centerfire handgun ammo, then rifle/shotgun/rimfire. I have been puzzled by the rash of shortages of rimfire ammo since '08. I do believe a minority of buyers are purchasing the supply.

[dudel]

I have been puzzled by the rash of shortages of rimfire ammo since '08. I do believe a minority of buyers are purchasing the supply.

I believe when the last scare went up, that many people went out to buy their first gun. They looked at the price of a center fire (even a cheap on), then looked at the price of a cheap rim fire, and decided to go with the cheaper choice. Any gun was better than no gun. Then they needed ammo.

Ammo makes say they are running extra shifts, and buying additional equipment. Just takes time to get the stock back up. At our WW, it's still available at $20/550 round box of Golden Bullet. Problem is it gets snapped up very fast. Same at a local Dicks. Eventually people will look a closets full of rimfire ammo and go. Ok. I've got enough.

Of course I have no proof of this, but it seems reasonable to me based on how I've seen people behave when they are uneducated on a topic. You'll see the same thing with generators after a big storm. Some of the generators that get bought would barely power a light bulb. But hey, we got us a generator.

[Hogdaddy]

I have plenty 22LR,, I'm getting primers @ $40 1000 & no hazmat, so it kinda equals out..

I can shoot any pistol cal I have cheaper than most the 22 LR prices.. .08 a round is average on most my pistols.

My 22 LR I have cost less than .05 a round so I have to keep a eye out for the deals ; )
H/D

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I believe when the last scare went up, that many people went out to buy their first gun. They looked at the price of a center fire (even a cheap on), then looked at the price of a cheap rim fire, and decided to go with the cheaper choice. Any gun was better than no gun. Then they needed ammo.

Ammo makes say they are running extra shifts, and buying additional equipment. Just takes time to get the stock back up. At our WW, it's still available at $20/550 round box of Golden Bullet. Problem is it gets snapped up very fast. Same at a local Dicks. Eventually people will look a closets full of rimfire ammo and go. Ok. I've got enough.

Of course I have no proof of this, but it seems reasonable to me based on how I've seen people behave when they are uneducated on a topic. You'll see the same thing with generators after a big storm. Some of the generators that get bought would barely power a light bulb. But hey, we got us a generator.

dudel,
I am right here with ya on this !
In my circle of friends, many of their 'gun' habbits changed in the first three months of the year. Some started reloading for the first time. Some that never owned a gun, decided to buy and called me to ask advise. BUT most importantly my causal gunowning friends that rarely shoot, when they heard of the 22LR shortage they started looking to buy for that specific reason...even if their last brick lasted 5 years, they were out to buy buy buy !

I believe it'll settle down, but I suspect prices will remain a bit higher than they were in 2012. while many places are selling at old prices, then sellout in minutes, I'm thinking they'll raise the price at the end of the year and call it an annual increase, so it doesn't look like gouging.

I'll still be shooting and buying 22LR, but not as much if I can shoot 38's for the same price.
Jon

[NoZombies]

I'll still be shooting and buying 22LR, but not as much if I can shoot 38's for the same price.
Jon

Ain't that the truth!

I'm still sitting on a bunch of .22 ammo, but I feel worse shooting it than I do any of the CF stuff. To replace the CF stuff, I just have to make the time to reload some, to replace the .22 stuff, I have to fight 4 thousand people trying to buy it before me.

[texassako]

This is why I like having a pistol caliber rifle. A Destroyer in 9mm Largo in my case, but it could be a lever, semi, or even a rifle caliber with a pistol bullet(or round ball) as well. Mine run 7 cents a round. I also get to have fun casting and loading some rounds that you don't get with the .22.

[FergusonTO35]

My father in law fires maybe three rounds a year in all calibers, just shots at deer and turkey. I've never known him to target practice, in fact I don't think he is really all that passionate about guns. He is passionate about hunting. Still, he asks me where he can find .22 ammo because he wants to stockpile it. Never mind that he has a few thousand rounds that I know of and probably more. My sister in law doesn't own any guns, she has a .22 pistol on loan from us for bad guy defense. She was griping about not being able to find ammo and she owns no guns!

I'm not going to buy any rimfire for a long time unless the deal is just too good to pass up. I'll stick with cast boolits in centerfire. I've already fired a bunch of .22's in my lifetime anyhow.

[Suo Gan]

Commodity prices will come down when interest rates go back up. Sell your gold if you have any left...you don't right? Invest in real estate now it is undervalued. Buy good bonds, they are undervalued. If you have ammo that will last a year, don't worry about this. They are making it by the train car...the bubbles that were created whose cause was many, will pop. Bulk ammo will be cheap again. Worry about your future.

Now is the time to think about other things than ammo my redneck friends...

[FergusonTO35]

Well spoken. One of our local shops is now selling some kind of $50.00 thing that looks like a plastic bucket with a lid for burying your ammo. I guess that's what you can use when the closets and garage are all filled up. I wonder how many people in the coming decades will be cleaning up a deceased relative's house and come across a huge stash of early 2000's ammo? Quite a few I suspect!

[Digital Dan]

If cheap was my metric I'd pursue a pastime other than shooting. My choice(s) for any given day of shooting are task driven, and not cost regulated.

All things considered if cost were a consideration I'd likely use a small bore flintlock.

[koehlerrk]

I recently reloaded 500 38s for my kids... my cost was about 1/2 the price of buying 500 22s.

[35remington]

The people comparing the price of their reloaded cast ammo to 22 rimfire conveniently forget, besides the 3 cent price of the primer (which has gone up to 4 cents recently, so it's not price immune either until the panic subsides) and one cent cost of the powder (small charge of pistol powder like 5 grains) and whatever was paid for the brass also conveniently forget about many other costs.

The cost of the lead pot, which is amortized over its lifetime and is never "zero."
The cost of the gas to obtain the lead and components.
The cost of the electricity to run the pot.
The cost of the propane to smelt the raw lead and turn it into bars so it doesn't clog up the melting pot.
The cost of the dutch oven and lead processing tools like ladles and straining spoons to get rid of the wheelweight clips.
The cost of the propane smelting appliances like the high BTU burners.
The cost of the lead they payed for.....as opposed to free. Probably some of it cost them something. All of it wasn't free....see the part about gas to get it.
The cost of the moulds to form the bullets.
The cost of the gas checks, if any.
The cost of the presses and dies to assemble the ammo, and the other loading tools.

Cheaper than 22 ammo? Don't kid yourself. Most are just turning a blind eye to their actual costs and claiming things are "paid off" which is never really the case. No economics professor would term such accounting anything but fraudulent.

What people say they make ammo for and what they actually make ammo for are two entirely different figures.

It's more realistic for cast bullet shooters to claim they shoot more centerfire ammo for less cost than if they did not cast......AND if they restrain themselves from constantly buying new moulds and reloading for more calibers, which give more costs to amortize (and never really catch up with!). Who among us can really restrain himself from buying more casting gadgets when we simply could have bought more .22 ammo?

Not me!

But I know a lot more about shooting, reloading, and casting than if I just shot .22's alone.....and that's more than worth the price of admittance. So I happily shoot cast bullets, know I am saving some costs so I can shoot more centerfire than I could otherwise, and continue to shoot while others cannot find any bullets at all.

In that casting is a blessing. So don't get the idea I'm down on it.......just the accounting of costs that ignores a lot of the cost.

[bhn22]

For most of us, once the money for a pastime is spent, it's spent. Like beer money. After 30 days, the pluses & negatives go into the "gain/loss" column on the P&L, and all is forgotten.

:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Forrest r]

Blammo ammo can still be had cheap, less than $.04 a round.

It's hording that is still causing the shortages. Federal earlier this year put out a press release that they were working 7 days a week, 24 hours a day & still could not keep up with the demand for rimfire ammo. And that they were going to put x number of cases of ammo aside for the different youth programs as they've always done. Over on rimfirecenteral there are people that live near the plant & either have family members or friends that work there & they have all said the same thing (working 7/24 & can't keep up with the demand).

Personally, I shoot allot of rimfire firearms. They are extremely accurate & world class firearms of the highest quality can be bought for little $$$$.

There has been shortages in the past with both rimfire ammo & reloading components. A little awareness of this simple fact goes a long way in being left without primers/powder/rimfire ammo. Put some $$$ aside & when prices come down or the product becomes available simple drop a dime on it & stock up.

Cases of rimfire ammo are small & can easily be stacked/stored. Before this last shortage hit (gee I wonder if the same thing will happen to ammo/reloading supplies (rimfire ammo) if Obamma is re-elected that happened the 1st time he was elected?) I did manage to stock up on some rimfire ammo. Ended up buying cases of:
federal 510's
federal 545's (wal-mart bulk packs)
federal automatch
federal american eagle's
winchester 333's
winchester 555's
cci blazer 525 bulk packs
cci blazer standard brick (500)
And for sv ammo I bought cases of:
aguila sv
winchester dyna-points
federal sv
Match ammo:
2 cases of sk standard+
That's 13 cases of 22lr rimfire ammo, I also pickup different bricks of the better match grade ammo when I want need them.

Been shooting when I want ever since. I do enjoy 25m sport pistol, 50m free pistol, 4p rifle @ 50yds/100yds, rimfire silhouettes and of course it's always a good day when bringing a couple bricks of 22's to the range for some plinking.

Luck is when opportunity meet preparation.

[Petrol & Powder]

35Remington - I agree with your cost analysis and your other points. bhn22 is also right, we spend the money because we want to. Yea, there's some justification going on but ultimately we will make the decisions based on a blend of actual total cost vs. pleasure gained.

I spend money on reloading because I enjoy it. If I counted all the costs of the supplies, fuel, equipment, electricity and coffee I would end up with something close to $50/round ! and I would still do it :bigsmyl2:

[dondiego]

Yep, I had to buy a truck to go pick up lead and powder and then I needed a garage to keep the truck and the lead in and then I had to buy a house to store my loading gear! I think my cost per round is about $1000 each...........but if I shoot more that cost will come down......right?

[waksupi]

Yep, I had to buy a truck to go pick up lead and powder and then I needed a garage to keep the truck and the lead in and then I had to buy a house to store my loading gear! I think my cost per round is about $1000 each...........but if I shoot more that cost will come down......right?

That sounds like what happens when someone gives you a "free" horse!

[BBQJOE]

I've never shot much .22. I have a semi auto rifle, and a heritage revolver. The heritage is always loaded with bird shot for snakes. I might have 1000 rounds on hand, and don't plan on shooting them any time soon. Maybe when they get as cheap as air gun pellets, but not before then.

[35remington]

The point is when a product is sold commercially the actual cost of production is more often correctly accounted for. When you produce it for yourself one often conveniently "forgets" all the other costs needed to make something for your own use. Too many real costs are written off as "insignificant" when this is never the case. Everything costs something.

The true, actual cost of one's centerfire handloads is in reality rarely cheaper than .22 long rifles, no matter how one "figures" creatively.

[mac60]

Blammo ammo can still be had cheap, less than $.04 a round.

It's hording that is still causing the shortages. Federal earlier this year put out a press release that they were working 7 days a week, 24 hours a day & still could not keep up with the demand for rimfire ammo. And that they were going to put x number of cases of ammo aside for the different youth programs as they've always done. Over on rimfirecenteral there are people that live near the plant & either have family members or friends that work there & they have all said the same thing (working 7/24 & can't keep up with the demand).

Personally, I shoot allot of rimfire firearms. They are extremely accurate & world class firearms of the highest quality can be bought for little $$$$.

There has been shortages in the past with both rimfire ammo & reloading components. A little awareness of this simple fact goes a long way in being left without primers/powder/rimfire ammo. Put some $$$ aside & when prices come down or the product becomes available simple drop a dime on it & stock up.

Cases of rimfire ammo are small & can easily be stacked/stored. Before this last shortage hit (gee I wonder if the same thing will happen to ammo/reloading supplies (rimfire ammo) if Obamma is re-elected that happened the 1st time he was elected?) I did manage to stock up on some rimfire ammo. Ended up buying cases of:
federal 510's
federal 545's (wal-mart bulk packs)
federal automatch
federal american eagle's
winchester 333's
winchester 555's
cci blazer 525 bulk packs
cci blazer standard brick (500)
And for sv ammo I bought cases of:
aguila sv
winchester dyna-points
federal sv
Match ammo:
2 cases of sk standard+
That's 13 cases of 22lr rimfire ammo, I also pickup different bricks of the better match grade ammo when I want need them.

Been shooting when I want ever since. I do enjoy 25m sport pistol, 50m free pistol, 4p rifle @ 50yds/100yds, rimfire silhouettes and of course it's always a good day when bringing a couple bricks of 22's to the range for some plinking.

Luck is when opportunity meet preparation.

So I can wrap my brain around that - how many rounds are in a case?

[marvelshooter]

So I can wrap my brain around that - how many rounds are in a case?
5,000

[samwithacolt]

It gets cheaper the more you shoot and the longer you do it. I bet very few people here started handloading with cast boolits. I bet most had a press and dies, and were loading j bullets first, then after a few years they began casting. I am a major scrounger. I swing by the range if I'm nearby, just to look for brass and lead. You build up knowledge and supplies over the years. I can load almost anything now with Unique(rifle pistol shotgun), and will be doing a bulk buy with some buddies soon, bringing the cost down some more.
In this climate, availability is a big factor too. I don't care what something retails for if nobody has any.

[NoZombies]

Cheaper than 22 ammo? Don't kid yourself. Most are just turning a blind eye to their actual costs and claiming things are "paid off" which is never really the case. No economics professor would term such accounting anything but fraudulent.


I rarely disagree with you, but I have to take issue with some of your logic.

Your argument is based, in part, on a fixed cost of equipment acquisition and amortizing the cost over time. I have found that almost any of my equipment is worth as much today on the secondary market as what I paid for it initially, wether I purchased it new or used. Heck, some (most?) of the equipment is worth more now than I paid for it, and is generally rising in value faster than the inflation rate, so I'm actually seeing profit, rather than loss. Now, if I account for the profit realized from the eventual sale of my equipment, it reduces the cost of loading.

As for the other expense mentioned, I have tracked my expenditures carefully on all fronts as an attempt to understand the actual non-recoverable costs involved, and I can say with certainty that I can shoot my .45, 38, .380 or most of the rest of my pistol calibers (and many of the rifles) for the same cost, or less than I can currently buy .22 ammo, when taking the same considerations.

For starters, we'll just negate the fuel costs for "driving around to find lead and components" because You'll likely spend more gas driving around to find .22 ammo.

The only other unaccounted for costs (Taking equipment and "driving around" fuel out of the equation) are the costs of running the equipment, and the components.

I won't make a universal argument here, but rather base my case on the local conditions.

I can buy lead, already smelted and ready to cast locally for $0.75 a pound. I can buy powder for $16 a pound, and primers for $20 per K. I generally load low pressure, and I pick up my brass, and any other laying on the ground in my calibers, so I generally gain brass from going to the range, so cost is nil (in the last 3 months, I've gone from having 4K pieces of .45 brass to having 6K pieces without buying any). .22 ammo isn't "always in stock" anyplace locally, so I have to look for it. When I find it, I pay between 6 and 8 cents a round.

So, assuming we don't charge anything for our time loading, and recognize that the equipment cost is moot and the fuel for finding components is equated by that of finding .22 ammo, I can say that my .45 ammo costs less, on average, than my .22 ammo.

For my .45 acp loads:
Lead .02
Primer .02
Powder .008
Brass (nil)
Electricity cost .0002
Total cost .0482

[wistlepig1]

Yep, I had to buy a truck to go pick up lead and powder and then I needed a garage to keep the truck and the lead in and then I had to buy a house to store my loading gear! I think my cost per round is about $1000 each...........but if I shoot more that cost will come down......right?

The truth and I can't handle the truth!:bigsmyl2:

[35remington]

NZ, you're forgetting some amount of your high school economics.

There is always "opportunity cost"......in other words, what that dollar amount you spent on equipment would be worth in inflation adjusted dollars today had you not spent it on equipment.....or "the best opportunity forgone." "As much as when I bought it" ain't gonna cut it. For one thing, you'll take a loss. Should you sell it, you have to replace it with something else to load your ammo.....and your prices go back up. Selling your equipment to "lower your costs" is a nonstarter because you won't sell your equipment. The price of ammo must reflect what you have in it based on past expenditure, not on hoped for future sales. One event has already occurred. The other has not. Wishful future gains do not enter into current costs.

If "amortization" was not a valid concept as a way to account for costs of production it would not exist as a term. Ammo manufacturers account for amortization of equipment in ammo production to arrive at a correct final price for their product. ALL expenditures are accounted for, not just the ones that make a favorable comparison while ignoring the other relevant outlays of cash.

Doing it privately doesn't shelter you from accruing the same costs related to amortization and production expenditures in making ammo. It is popular to think otherwise, but never correct.

Primers are more close to 3 cents each for most places I canvass for primers. Best I could do before the panic was $27 for 1000. Promo powder, the cheapest around, was $90 per 8 lbs. pre panic with tax, which is 0.8 cents per shot at 5 grains per shot in 45 ACP. At 16 bucks a lb. it would be about 1.1 cents a shot. Smaller "plinking" charges would lower those figures a little.

Brass wasn't all free. Some of it came in factory loads, some of it you gave something for. I have a lot of 45 ACP brass, for instance, and it would be pretty disingenuous of me to suggest it cost nothing. Not a good accounting of costs to call all brass "free" as that's not the case. But even if it somehow was, and when comparing the cost of .22 panic prices to "discounted" reloading prices .22's still come off pretty well, depending upon how badly you're getting screwed, which is a lot more than standard price for some.

Pre panic I was giving less than 20 bucks per 500 for .22 ammo, loosely packed "525 bulk pack" stuff. Hard for even a casting reloader to compete with. That's less than 4 cents per shot.

Because we privately make ammo, we don't like to account properly for our costs. There is no question about that part. Inaccurately listing our expenses won't put money back in the bank......it's still gone.

Nothing at all for gas? Nothing for the lead melting pot? Nothing for the mould? Nothing at all for the casting tools and equipment? Supplemental tin for good mould fillout? Nothing at all for anything else? It was all free, huh? Doubtful.

Unquestionably, there's more cost to your "price list" for assembling ammo that you just haven't mentioned. If we'd bet on it, you'd lose. Simply because each and every one of those moulds and pots and lead supply and primers and brass and powder and loading equipment and tools and everything else could have been spent on.......22 ammo alone.

There is the relevant comparison.

But across the board, 22 ammo is gonna be cheaper if you're not paying robbery prices and likely is cheaper even if you're paying somewhat more than normal. To further make the point, if we're using "panic" .22 ammo prices to compare, why don't we use "panic" primer pricing of 40 bucks per hundred, etc?

[NoZombies]

I wont argue with you. I have spent more hours than I'd care to recount going over the numbers, and I have tracked every cent spent or recovered, and I know exactly where I stand.

It is cheaper for me to shoot my CF pistol calibers than it is to replace the .22 rimfire ammo. Factor in whatever you'd like, but I've run my numbers, and I know my costs.

[beezapilot]

I was looking at trying to find a 32 H&R Mag Single Six, now I am doubling the effort! I still see hoarders "meeting the truck" at a few places and buying everything they can at once!

Lefty

I was fortunate and found a S&W 631 at a yard sale last year- it is a perfect revolver, reloading super lights in 32S&W to screamin' heathens in the 32mag there is a lot of versatility. Wish I'd gotten one years ago- good luck with finding one ... I'm looking for the Marlin chambered for .32 Mag as a companion piece.

[dondiego]

Did Marlin actually produce a .32 H&R Magnum or was it smithed?

[35remington]

NZ, my point is that you're not accounting for every cent expended in producing your own ammo.....because you have a big, fat zero in the area pertaining to "additional expenses."

We both know those costs are there, but you only deal with the direct costs of lead, primers, and powder and lip service to electricity. There's a lot more to accounting for your actual costs than that. Way too much is left off the ledger with such simplistic accounting. This fails economics 101.

The truth is that we can never produce ammo as cheaply as rimfire go for, because we make the ludicrous assumption from the get go that our time spent in producing ammo is valueless, and this is the most expensive component of all that we "pretend" doesn't count. Rimfire ammo cost accounts for everything related to making it, so wins by a considerable order of magnitude in the "actual cost per round" department.

When we say we can produce our own ammo cheaper than rimfires we are in considerable denial. Even if all of our components were free this won't be the case when value for all inputs is correctly accounted for.

Just the way it is.

[NoZombies]

35 Remington,

I don't enjoy driving around looking for .22 ammo, only to find none. If I factor that time into the cost of buying .22 ammo, with an average 50 mile round trip to even look, often leaving empty handed, it gets more expensive by far, and I don't enjoy it. I do enjoy the process of casting and loading my own, so should I factor the value of that as entertainment, or perhaps as therapy? :bigsmyl2:

My point is that there is no way for either of us to win the argument. I will never convince you that I am right, and you will never convince me that you are.

I do factor all of my hard expenses, and I mean all of them. Please don't assume that I'm missing something in my math because our results are different.

As an example, lets look at my cast bullet sizing equipment, all values account for shipping, any fees incurred in sale, etc. This is over the course of 5+ years, but not in chronological order:

Purchased 12 lyman sizers, all in need of parts or repair (included 20+ sizing dies)
-$73
Purchased replacement parts for sizers
-$114
Sold 10 lyman sizers
+ 745
Purchased ballisticast Sizer (came with 8 dies)
-$410
Sold unneeded dies from ballisticast sizer
+$170
Purchased Star sizer
-$200
Purchased lot of various Lyman sizing dies
-$65
Sold unneeded Lyman sizing dies
+$40
Purchased Meepos sizer
-$30
Purchased Another Lot of Lyman dies
-$110
Sold duplicate Lyman dies
+$140
Purchased lot including Ideal #1 sizer
-$105
Sold extra pieces from Lot
+$155
Other misc purchases (Lee dies, small parts, punches etc.)
-$173
Other Misc sales of excess sizing related equipment and parts
+$211

I am left with 6 good sizing presses, sizing dies for virtually anything I want, and a positive balance of a little over $180. Virtually every part of my equipment inventory would tell a similar story, and the few that wouldn't are negated by the positive balances in the other areas.

I'm not running a business, casting and reloading are a hobby, and I just happen to have an eye for good deal that I can sell the excess of, and end up with free equipment. This is why I factor my equipment cost at zero.

I will concede that I understand what you're saying, and recognize that for many folks it would be true, but my personal experience is different.

[NoZombies]

Did Marlin actually produce a .32 H&R Magnum or was it smithed?

Marlin did make .32 H&R lever guns, 2 small runs. They are expensive now, when you can find them.

[tigerbight]

Me and the wife will be shooting our 25-20s casting soon for it.

[rbuck351]

Try this on for your cost of making ammo cheaper than 22. I have a lot of money wrapped up in loading equiptment and supplies but when I use my equiptment to load a box of expensive ammo for a pile less than factory ammo costs, does this not subtract from to cost of the equiptment by the amount saved in making my own. Take a box of 416Rem at $159 that I load for a cost of about $30. Is that not a cost reduction of $129 for the 5 boxes I loaded? I load and shoot a lot of 25/20 that would cost about $50 per box if I could find it. 25/20 costs about 5 cents per round to load so every time I pull the trigger I'm reducing cost of equiptment by about $.95. Now this goes for all my guns, some of which have more expensive ammo than others. On average it's real easy to save a buck a pop on rifle ammo. So, 50 years of reloading has easily paid in full for all my loading stuff and probably I'm many thousands of dollars ahead of buying factory ammo. So at this point I figure my equiptment was not free but I was actually paid a lot of money to own it and I could always sell it and make a bunch more. So, now that I have all this stuff including powder, primers, lead and brass, paid for by savings on loading ammo, I figure I can load 25/20 for nothing for a long time. And when I run out of stuff already paid for by savings on loading, I can still load for about $.05 per round or I can save another $200 by loading 3 boxes of 358N and use the savings to buy some more powder and primers. Reloading is mental therapy for me so I can put the $300 per hour for a shrink into powder and primers as well and save even more. So loading my own doesn't cost anything compared to what it would cost if I didn't load.

Hey Tigerbight. Don't you just love the 25/20? Hopped up 22mag performance for 6 or 7 cents per round vs $15 for 50 rounds. And by the way, take a look at the NOE 85gr mold for the 25/20.

[dondiego]

$300 mental therapy! Where's Wayne?

[rbuck351]

Who's Wayne? Aw, never mind, I don't need him either. I have my loading stuff and plenty of targets. Life is good.

[35remington]

rbuck, money spent is money spent. Doesn't create money when it's gone.

The problem, NZ, is all the stuff you don't mention that is required to produce ammo that you must add to the cost of production. You have indeed left out a lot of things, and your cost accounting is incomplete. Accounting only for the expendables.....powder, primers, and lead for bullets, exposes the fundamental flaw. There absolutely has to be other costs.....ignoring them isn't making your point very well.

And counting profits from sales of fixing sizers and suchlike toward your costs of producing ammo is entirely unrelated. Labor is involved......follow my drift? You're not making ammo. You're fixing sizers. What does one have to do with the other?

That's like me repairing outboard motor gas tanks and counting the profit gained thereby against my costs to load ammo. My ammo is cheap to produce because I fix outboard motor gas tanks?

The topic is costs to produce ammo. Just those costs, not profit from doing something unrelated.

[NoZombies]

As I said, neither of us can win this argument.

We're both wrong, and both right.

I'm done.

[rbuck351]

Money doesn't create money but the labor that I wasn't going to get paid for anyway that I use to load my own creates very valuable ammo which relates directly to money as money is just a medium of exchange so we don't have to buy things with bullets or pies or what ever. I can easily create a bunch of very high dollar 416 rem ammo in and hour. Even after factoring the cost of a press, $125, dies, $45, brass, $200, powder, $50, Primers, $4, bullets, $90 and powder scale,$80 and $30 for my labor to make 100 416 rounds compared to the cost of factory ammo ($159 per 20), I have made $795 worth of ammo for a total of $624. Now I have my 416 ammo, a press, dies and a scale for about $624. I bought the 416 ammo I wanted for only $624 and got a bunch of loading stuff for free. Now I'm going to take the free press and scale and buy a set of dies for my 358N a couple more lbs of powder and a hundred bullets for about $150. This 358N ammo is only worth about $75 per box for $325 for 5 boxes. So another $30 for my labor and I have only spent about $180 for $325 worth of 358N ammo and a set of free dies. This goes on with another 25 or 30 calibers I load for and I have a stack of ammo that I have bought at a reduced price and a stack of free dies, lube sizers, molds, lead pots and other assorted stuff. Now I can load for any of my guns without having to buy anything but powder primers and bullets unless I decide to cast which drops expendible costs even more. So now that my equipment is all paid for by savings on not buying factory ammo, all I have to buy to load 25/20 is a 4cent primer and a pennys worth of powder to get more performance than a 22lr at 5cents per round. My loading stuff has all paid for itself with loaded ammo. Not "money" but could be traded for money if that makes you feel better. Money spent is not necessarily gone as you should be recieving goods in exchange and I have frequently traded the goods for more money than what I spent on the goods. Economics 101. Buy low and sell high. If you are going to buy and use a certain amount of a product over a period of time and you can buy some equipment and produce the product cheaper including the cost of the equipment and material, does not the equpiment pay for itself over time assuming it doesn't wear out? And at some point isn't the equipment paid for and no longer figured into the cost of producing the original product? Some of my presses and dies are over 50years old and produced a pile of ammo. Wouldn't you think they have paid for themself and they are still worth a bunch more than they cost? I don't get this adding the price of a press and dies to every box of ammo you create. After they have saved their cost they are in effect free.

[Jon]

Anyone arguing about how much reloading costs should try getting a second job, and seeing how much ammo that will buy you for your hours spent.
How many hours are spent watching TV? Is there any value add there? No. It's completely wasted time.
At least with reloading, you're saving money, and arguably making money if you would have shot that same ammo anyway.

I know that I couldn't afford to shoot as much as I do if I wasn't reloading. Do, I actually reload for less than the price of .22LR $0.06 each, probably not. I do know what I'm spending for powder and primers though. Lead is essentially free, but there is labor added to my berm mined range lead, and some propane costs.
Do I come close? Yes, I would say that I do, especially as 22lr keeps rising in cost. It wasn't that long ago that 500rds was $6. Now it's close to $30

[dondiego]

Who's Wayne? Aw, never mind, I don't need him either. I have my loading stuff and plenty of targets. Life is good.

Wayne the Shrink is on this forum.

[birch]

I just got back from my favorite gun dealer. He is not an alarmist or conspiricy theorist, but even he thinks there is something fishy with the .22lr shortage. He is a pretty good sized dealer and told me that he gets his ammo from one of the biggest distributers in the country. They told him that they are not getting 1/10th of the .22 ammo that they got in before the "big scare".

[dakotashooter2]

I could add in the labor cost equal to what I am getting paid at my job but even at that I'm only adding $2-$3 to a cost of a box of shells at most. I'm still saving far more than that. Not to mention that with most people if they are not keeping busy with something they are spending money on entertainment. So while I am not making money when I reload I am also not spending it making for a net gain for the savings I am incurring.

[bhn22]

Almost every business I know of depreciates equipment and facilities at the maximum fixed rate allowed by law. Depending on the value of the item, it would go on a fixed depreciation schedule based on its expected service life. Depreciation doesn't go on forever, so my Mag 20, Star, dies, molds, presses and even my brass have depreciated enough over their life spans to be considered non-existent, at least as far as amortization goes. This leaves only my costs for components in play. Now, I started buying primers and stockpiling them after the first great famine, and many of them have aquisition dates from the early '90s. These primers cost an average of $1.50/100, or 1.5 cents each. If I sell them, they have a replacement cost of about 3.5 cents each. Therefore, I show a gain of 2.0 cents per primer, minimum. Therefore, every time I load a case, I earn a credit of 2.0 cents per round, because my primer expense has been moved into the "gain" column on my P&L statement.

[rbuck351]

Yeah. What bhn22 said. I still have a few lbs of W230P that I paid $3 per lb for, lead I got for free, primers I paid $10 per 1000 and I make my own gas checks. But, that being said, I still have a bunch of 22 ammo that I paid $10 per brick or less for as well. All in all, my loading for the little guns and the cost of 22lr have been close for a long while. But I get more performance per $ from handloads.

[35remington]

Those responding need to remember that additional costs to produce ammo besides the items that are consumed are ongoing. It is true for those that commercially produce ammo, and it is true for those who privately produce ammo. Trust me, CCI has never, ever figured that their equipment and personnel has "amortized out" and they may now produce .22's without any consideration for those costs.

Those costs don't just "stop" because someone feels that they don't want to account for them.

For many here, that's just what they're doing. Nor can profits gained from unrelated activities be applied to artificially "lower" costs of production. That's like saying my reloading costs are nearly free because I make a lot of money at a high paying job. That fails to answer the question of just what one's actual costs to reload are. It's more a statement about one's net income which is hardly the same thing.

[waco]

150gr of lead
3.2 grains of titegroup
primer
my .38's are pretty cheap

[bhn22]

Exactly. And now we're back on track. :bigsmyl2:


150gr of lead
3.2 grains of titegroup
primer
my .38's are pretty cheap

[FThera]

I just bought a bunch of Federal Match 22 at Walmart for $20.33 per box of 325. I see no reason to reload at that price.

[rbuck351]

One reason is you can get quite a bit more performance for that 6+ cents per round. Maybe it's more trouble than it's worth for some folks but for me, reloading is fun and relaxing and I'm going to load those 6 cent rounds for my 25/20 just for fun. I have a bunch of 22 ammo but I don't shoot it much because I really like the 25/20. To each his own.