Can Lube Be Too Slippery

[detox]

My SPG lube makes sizing boolits in my Lubrsizer more difficult...especially linotype alloy, but performs well in all my guns. So i just made up another lube similar to Ben's Red that uses automotive lubricants and boolits size much easier now. My question is "can a lube be too slick to perform well"? Has anyone ever tested?

[shredder]

Hmmm. Wonder what the problem would be? Boolits going too fast downbore? :razz:

I have been using an automotive grease based lube known as "lithi bee" for a while now and it sure is slick. It sure works well too. It does not seem to build up in the bore and groups are consistent without crazy fliers.

[uscra112]

Some of the lube-myrmidons here say it can be, but I can't fathom their reasoning.

That said, Ben's Red works for me, so I've stopped thinking about it.

[357maximum]

Can Lube Be Too Slippery.....simple answer is YES

You can scientifically prove it for yourself. Take a good lube like BEN'S RED that you are already happy with and slowly add oil/grease in increasing amounts to small samples. Document each addition and Professor gun will at some point agree with me. This even holds true if you offset the base to not let viscosity be a factor. If you wanna play, you will actually see this scenario pan out alot faster in a high pressure short barrel gun that needs FRICTION for proper burn a bit more than other toys do. Most "too slippery" effects are vertical dispersion, but if you really jack a lube recipe up you can make the most slipperiest yet junkiest lube out there.....it has been done...both accidentally by some and intentionally by others. Some sadistic souls such as myself have done it both on accident and on purpose. Heck I even got talked into doing it more than once just by being the gullible fool that I apparently am.

[waksupi]

Just what I was going to say. You need a certain amount of friction for correct burn of the powders.

[leftiye]

If we re-state the question to - "can lube be not slippery enough," the answer becomes probly not. Remember, quite a few here have shot guns with cast boolits without lube, some from rifles at a purty good velocity. There's a trick to it, but the trick is enlightening. As I remember, the thing that makes it possible is mainly a carbon buildup on the bore. How slippery is that? Lube keeps the lead out of contact with the barrel. Slippery may not be needed atall.

[btroj]

Too slippery is actually easy to do. Like Mike said, vertical on the target is a common sign of too slick.

We really need to stop calling it lube, it makes people think that it needs to be slippery to work.

[Maximumbob54]

Lube keeps the lead out of contact??? What about the driving band or bore riding section???

I thought the biggest point of bullet lube was to act as a seal or o-ring for holding back the expanding gas from the burning powder...? You are already supposed to have the correct alloy for bullet hardness to conform to the rifling without the lead shearing off from the lands so all the lube has to do is not let gas around the lead. Factor in a gas check (which may also be a bit of a misnomer) and you can add to the confusion. I hear checks are supposed to scrape the lead from the bore and that may be true from the lands but how would it scrape the grooves clean? The check itself doesn't conform to the bore for a perfect seal or you wouldn't need bullet lube. Recover a jacketed bullet and you can see the scraped sides where the jacket rode the lands and you can see the carbon residue from where the hot gas rode with it down the bore. All I see bullet lube doing is stopping the hot gas from riding with the boolit and eroding away from the lead as it passes. Even liquid tumble lubes do nothing more than allow the boolit to conform to the bore and seal back the gas but it's up to you to regulate the pressure to keep the thin layer of lube from wearing too quickly. If I see a lube that prevents leading but I see accuracy as an issue I'm not sure lube would really be the real culprit behind that accuracy drop. Consider it why bees wax works so much better than any type of candle wax. Beeswax is stiff enough to hold but soft enough to quickly conform to the bore for holding back the gas while candle wax (paraffin usually) is too stiff and refuses to conform to the bore which allows the hot gas to ride the boolit down the bore. I don't care if it's galling, erosion, smearing, whatever, all I see is lube sealing off the gas. It just needs to be soft enough to quickly conform to the bore which is why for slower lower pressure loads you want a 50/50 bees wax / alox or similar lube and then for higher pressure higher velocity loads you want something harder like adding carnauba wax or similar if not carnauba or similar by itself.

Someone please correct me if I’m all wrong on this.

[detox]

It just needs to be soft enough to quickly conform to the bore which is why for slower lower pressure loads you want a 50/50 bees wax / alox or similar lube and then for higher pressure higher velocity loads you want something harder like adding carnauba wax or similar if not carnauba or similar by itself.

Someone please correct me if I’m all wrong on this.

I like soft lube for all my shooting. Lube must be slung off from boolit grooves the instant it exits barrel. SPG does just that, but makes sizing linotype boolits more difficult.

What is a good soft lube recipe that is semi-slick?

[geargnasher]

No Mike, you aren't a gullible fool, as no one was intentionally misleading you, so don't say things that aren't true. You brought all that on yourself, as you said, you can't stop tinkering and trying things. Don't resent the learning experience, eh?

As for lube being too slippery, it certainly can be. Paraffinic ingredients tend to have the least "slippery" effect (mineral oil, mineral -based ATF, Vaseline, paraffin wax, for example). The deal is the boolit will stutter-step down the bore due to minute imperfections, and that slip-stop effect plays hoc with barrel time and pressure curve. Add friction in the right way, or at least keep it consistent, and things improve greatly.

"Slippery" and "soft" are not mutually exclusive.

Gear

[357maximum]

Is the Grand Canyon a long gaping hole in the Earth or is it just a little ditch made of stone? ......all depends on ones perception due to location/outlook. The "truth" always hinges on perception does it not?

Bad directions whether intentional or not still lead one to the same place....not where one wants to be. When one accepts directions he feels are false but acts on them anyway...who is to blame and just who is being gullible? I did not place any fault with you....I am fully responsible for that one.

Slippery and soft can be quite successfully mutually exclusive, if you want them to be, just like perception and reality can be mutually exclusive if one tries hard enough apparently. There is alot of minerals/compounds that are slippery and hard just as there are alot of "stuff" that are sticky and soft. Making a lube out of straight beeswax and powdered rosin should be on everyones "to do" list....it will teach you alot, some of what you learn will not be applicable, but some of it will be depending on the ambient temp when you try it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Too slippery is actually easy to do. Like Mike said, vertical on the target is a common sign of too slick.

We really need to stop calling it lube, it makes people think that it needs to be slippery to work.

I am by no means an expert, but, it's not just boolit lubes that you don't want too slick.
Case in point:
Honda makes a semi-synth engine oil called "HP4 plus Moly". At that time my independant motorcycle shop carried it and recommended it for Honda motorcycles. I tried it once in my 1987 Honda Magna V4. It made my Clutch Slip. Honda's (and many other bikes) have a 'wet' clutch that is bathed in the engine oil...I believe that moly just made it too slick for the clutch. It took a few oil changes for the clutch to stop slipping when I'd be near the top of the power curve.

btw, this was a couple decades ago, I have since read that's why Honda came out with HP4 w/o Moly. But I no longer ride, so it doesn't matter to me.

[btroj]

Great example. What is needed is consistent friction. Too wet gives variation.

[leftiye]

Lube keeps the lead out of contact??? What about the driving band or bore riding section???

I thought the biggest point of bullet lube was to act as a seal or o-ring for holding back the expanding gas from the burning powder...? You are already supposed to have the correct alloy for bullet hardness to conform to the rifling without the lead shearing off from the lands so all the lube has to do is not let gas around the lead. Factor in a gas check (which may also be a bit of a misnomer) and you can add to the confusion. I hear checks are supposed to scrape the lead from the bore and that may be true from the lands but how would it scrape the grooves clean? The check itself doesn't conform to the bore for a perfect seal or you wouldn't need bullet lube. Recover a jacketed bullet and you can see the scraped sides where the jacket rode the lands and you can see the carbon residue from where the hot gas rode with it down the bore. All I see bullet lube doing is stopping the hot gas from riding with the boolit and eroding away from the lead as it passes. Even liquid tumble lubes do nothing more than allow the boolit to conform to the bore and seal back the gas but it's up to you to regulate the pressure to keep the thin layer of lube from wearing too quickly. If I see a lube that prevents leading but I see accuracy as an issue I'm not sure lube would really be the real culprit behind that accuracy drop. Consider it why bees wax works so much better than any type of candle wax. Beeswax is stiff enough to hold but soft enough to quickly conform to the bore for holding back the gas while candle wax (paraffin usually) is too stiff and refuses to conform to the bore which allows the hot gas to ride the boolit down the bore. I don't care if it's galling, erosion, smearing, whatever, all I see is lube sealing off the gas. It just needs to be soft enough to quickly conform to the bore which is why for slower lower pressure loads you want a 50/50 bees wax / alox or similar lube and then for higher pressure higher velocity loads you want something harder like adding carnauba wax or similar if not carnauba or similar by itself.

Someone please correct me if I’m all wrong on this.

No, you're not wrong. If I revised what I said (and I'm not) - Granted gas cutting causes leading. Granted lube aids gas sealing. But when you don't have gas leakage (and yes we are talking about the cylindrical, sealing part of the boolit here), lube denies the lead contact with the steel. Which also can cause leading. In the lube arena, leading is for beginners. After you stop having leading it is about accuracy. Consistent drag, and no boolit deformation are amoung the top issues which have anything to do with lube where accuracy is concerned.

[btroj]

In handguns at shorter range a lube that prevent leading will give good accuracy.
Move to rifles at 100 yards, or more, and stopping leading is the easy part. Getting consistent accuracy without signs of purging is far more difficult. Purging is usually indicated by flyers that follow a high, low pattern. Those flyers aren't always flyers!
Temperature makes a huge difference. Some lubes work great at temps above 50 but give cold barrel flyers at lower temps. Some lubes work great in cold but give purge flyers above 80.

Leading prevention is hardly the most important thing in lube. It is easy to do, accuracy over the long haul isn't.