My MiA1 and IMR 4350

[robertbank]

Well I managed to get 2 lbs of 4350 and I find out it may not be the best powder for the .308 using cast but I guess there is only one way to find out. Felix suggested a starting load of 46 gr and I intend to start there. I will be using 311291 boolits lubed with Felix Lube GC of course. I'll post results next week.

IF I don't find sucess with this powder in .308 I will bang my head agaist the wall with it in .303 Brit before consuming the balance in my '06 where it ultimately may find a home.

If you have any experience with this powder in .308 with the M1A1 feel free to kick in with comments.

Take Care

Bob

[BruceB]

Robert;

There's no obvious reason that 4350 won't do all right with cast bullets in the M1A.

However, Felix's suggested 46 grains is MUCH too high for initial use with cast bullets. I'd also be leery of using a charge of 4350 that high with jacketed loads in the M1A. Although the rifle uses a gas-cut-off type of operating system, which self-limits the amount of gas admitted to the cylinder, I'd still be uncomfortable. In a bolt-action, yes, but in the M1A I don't think so. With full power loads, burning rates in the 4895-4064 area are MUCH better-suited to this rifle.

For cast loads with 4350 and mid-weight bullets, I'd begin in the 34 grain area and work it up and down in search of best accuracy. 35 grains of IMR4350 was already up in the 1900-fps range with the 152-grain 311466 in my M1A, so you can see that eleven grains MORE powder would have the velocity of that bullet far beyond any practical expectation for success. 36 grains was running at over 2000 fps in my rifle.

I'd start experimenting at 33 grains with 170s, and work it DOWN until the functioning of the rifle becomes erratic. Then, I'd start back up the ladder, increasing the charge slowly until your accuracy (or lack of it) tells you that you've gone beyond the bullet's "happy zone"...and it should tell you very clearly. Somewhere in there you will find the best combo for YOUR bullets in YOUR rifle with that specific powder.

4350 will work, meaning that the rifle will function normally and without problems. Whether or not 4350 will give you sufficient accuracy remains to be seen. The starting point DEFINITELY should not be above 32 grains with bullets of 180 grains or more. 33 grains is a safe beginning level with 150-180 grains of lead.

For my part, there's still a whole bunch of experimenting to be done. Right now, I'm planning serious work with H335 and a wide range of bullets, and will report on the "sticky" M1A thread.

[robertbank]

Thanks Bruce I was hoping you would chime in. I have the Norinco M1A1. Pretty good shooter. The sights probably aren't as tight as the Springfield but the receiver is all forged.

I am hoping I can find a load that will cycle the action at around 1900 fps - 2000 fps and still be accurate. All I have right now and for the foreseeable future is the 311281 boolit, though I suppose I could try the 311941 as well. Will do as you suggest and load 10 boolits at a time using your ladder approach. Will do my testing at 50 yards so I know it is my gun/load combo as opposed to my eye/hand coordination.:)
Will post my results.

Thanks Again

Bob

[felix]

Thanks, Bruce! I had no idea about using cast when offering Robert that powerful load via a PM. It is just that 4350 typically likes to have a higher pressure than the typical mid-speeds for accuracy. I did suggest the powder was too slow for the auto guns, but still ought to be tried. ... felix

[BruceB]

Gents;

Felix's load would have been safe enough, pressure-wise. However, I'm dead certain that the cast bullets would not have been at all co-operative.

I've found that many powders operate just fine in this M1A rifle of mine, performing in roles in which they have no RIGHT to do so well. H4831 on one end of the quickness chart, and 4227/5744 at the other end, ALL function the rifle and do not abuse it. Many others between those extremes do very well indeed. All "rules" derived from shooting jacketed bullets in the same rifle are totally non-applicable. While H4831 gave unacceptable amounts of unburned powder in the action at the 35-grain level, IMR 4350 displayed NO such problem in my limited trials with it. I'll be returning to 4350 for further testing.

I haven't done much shooting with the 311291 in my M1A. However, I HAVE done enough to confidently say that a load for the Norinco rifle CAN be found, which will both function well and group at least passably. I had one 311291 load (reported on the "sticky" M1A thread on Military Rifle Loads) which produced about a 2" group of ten at 50 yards, at 1800-plus fps. Even at that limited degree of "accuracy", it could represent a lot of fun plinking.

The rifle type seems remarkably willing to digest almost any nose-shape that comes along, and 311041 should also do OK. I haven't found a single cast-bullet design, out of a dozen or more, which will not feed reliably in the M1A. I expect no less from the Norinco.

You have an enjoyable project ahead, Robert.

[robertbank]

Well I just got back from the range. I loaded 10 boolits each of 30, 31 & 32 grains of 4350. None cycled the action but I did learn something which is a good thing and will move up in loads until I find feed and function. Unfortunately I may have caught the only day this week where the sun was/will be shining, however, breifly. Living in a rain forest has it's downside ie "rain". Temp today 6C.

Here are the results. Comments are welcome.

30 Grains
High Vel 1672
Low Vel 1454
Avg Vel 1605
SD 52
A very large hat would have covered most of the rounds. Cases were quite sooty.

31 Grains
High Vel 1708
Low Vel 1600
Avg Vel 1650
SD 23
A smaller hat would have done it! Cases again were quite sooty.

32 Grains
High Vel 1707
Low Vel 1584
Avg Vel 1646
SD 42
Five shot group was a measured 1.25". 10 shot group ex one called pulled shot opened up to 4". Cases werre no less sooty.

No evidence of unburned powder in any of these loads.

Will move up in increments of one grain starting at 34 grains in groups of three times ten rds.. My 311291 boolits weigh with GC and lubed 181 grains on avg. Once I reach a point where the gun cycles I will go up and down in 1/2 gr increments until we find a sweet spot - watching for pressure signs of course.

Take Care

Bob

[Mk42gunner]

Bob,

A few thoughts and questions from someone who has never fired a cast bullet from an M14/M1A; however, I have thrown a few lines ship to ship and fired somewhere around three gazillion ball rounds with M14's. It's kind of neat to see a fiberglass handguard get soft and mushy from heat.

1. The sooty cases tell me the pressure is low.

2. Your high, low and average velocities for the 31 and 32 grain loads are very close. Assuming that you started with a clean bore, is it possible your bore was just starting to get conditioned to the lube by your third group?

3. Are you firing from a bench or prone with sling? If the latter I would load all ten into the same magazine. I have seen two separate five round groups on targets caused by the shooter repositioning their elbow during a magazine change; admittedly this is more prevalent with an M-16 than an M-14, but why take chances.

4. I need to get one of these rifles.

Good Luck,

Robert

[robertbank]

Hi

First due to our less than stellar gun laws rifles, except the Lee Enfields are limited to five round mags. Don't ask! Just dumb. Should mention the new pistol AR 15 mags can have ten in them as they are meant for the pistol like version of the rifle. If the mags are not marked "Pistol" then they are limited to five rounds. You see you aren't the only country with inept politicians. There is no shortage of stupidity in governments around the world. Sorry mods I just had to add that.

These loads were my starting point with this powder and you are right the sooty cases are an indication of low pressure. I am moving up to 35, 36 and 36.5 gr and if the sun manages to bless us with his presence I should be at the range with rifle in front of my chrono again. This is my first attempt at IMR 4350 and Bruce gave me some good starting points to work from. Last group of ten was much better and the first five of the ten were very good indeed given the idiot's ability at pulling the trigger. All shots were from a rest.

As indicated the action did not cycle at these levels with this powder. Tomorrow we shall see better groups and hopefully a cycled action.

Fun to play with different powders and wringing the best out of what you are playing with.

Gun is a shooter with jackets and will do better with cast once I get my loads down pat.

Take care

Bob

[robertbank]

Gotr out again today, weather is a very cool 3C. No Wind.

Iwanted to test 56, 36 and 36.5 gr of 4350 under my 185 gr 311291 boolit. I fired off five 35 grainers and they all cycled the rifle. Bullets were scattered over a five inch diameter, but the gun cycled. High Vel was 1735, Low 1632 and the gun cycled.

I then went to 36 gr. and fired seven rds off with a High Vel of 1831 and a low of 1758. All rounds were in a 2 inch circle.

Next I fired off five 36.5 grainers with the chrono failing to pick up two of the rounds due to the vary overcast skies. Hugh Vel reached 1873 with a Low of 1841. All rounds were within a two inch circle and two groups of two were just a wider hole.

To early to come to any conclusions but at least I got the gun cyclying. My guess is that somewhere between 34.5 gr and 37 gr. is sweetness with this powder. The weekend is forecast to be sunny so I will load 12 rds each of 34.5, 35.5 and 37 gr and see where these loads take me.

There are no signs of pressure problems and the cases are not as sooty as yesterday. I will also tape up my rear sight and pin prick it to reduce the diameter of the aperture (sp) to see if that helps. The rear sight on this rifle has an opening on it that rivals my Lee Enfield #4. Great for shooting bad guys but not so hot for target work. If I can get any of these loads down to single digit SD's I'll get a RCMP sniper type to determine if the loads are accurate enough.

Cerrosafe should be here next week as well so we will find out more abut my chamber and free bore dimensions.

Bruce you are a Saint for all the work you have done on your M 14. This takes time and patience.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob