Problems with crimp

[Smokecloud]

I gave up for a while and moved on to other adventures for the summer, but am back at trying to reload slugs for 3gun. I have the Lyman 525gr wasp waisted style slug mould. Running Win AA (gray) hulls, have WT12, claybuster clone of Waa12r wads, Fed S3 and S4 Wads. Have tried several types of powder, including BlueDot, Unique, Herco the SR4576 if I remember th number correctly. Have had several problems putting them together. #1 problem is most of the components simply do not fit in the hull and give a good crimp, it opens back up, or never completely closes. I have been using approx. 40lbs of crimp pressure to squish the shotcup down some and crimp is better, but my latest loads this morning simply testing for size, was the WT12 (win cheaper version of the WAA12 wads, 21gr of Unique, 525 slug and so far, its the best crimp fit of most all my combos. There is not a published load that fits easily with my current components, running them on a MEC 600 and crimp looks great with stuff that fits, like Lee 1oz slugs, I have to shim the slug up with nitro cards. Im not a very experienced shotshell reloader, but have over 30 years on handgun and rifle stuff and am very competent with them. This has become frustrating. I started collecting different hulls, Remington gold ones, Nitro 27 type stuff, Federal gold medal hulls, same issues and not enough of the hulls to make the volume I would like to have, so I keep going back to the Win Hull. Can I simply add more crush to the shotcups to make them shorter? If I up the pressure to 50-60psi will that effect anything other than the end result in length of the wad?

Last fall, I had a great recipe for the 525's , Win AA hulls and Herco that worked awesome for a friend for years, but he used real Winchester WAA12R wads, I have to tell you the claybuster versions suck, the powder cup portion blows out on a high percentage of them, even when I run them down around 1000fps (verified with chrono) they simply do not hold up, the quality of the plastic is simply not up to the task. I could make them work for fit in the AA Hull. Components are finally getting easier to locate, but still not what it should be.

[Smokecloud]

I have the Lyman Manual. I have 4 types of Hulls and 4 Wads. When the powdercup on the back of the wad, blows by, the slug tumbles on the target (verified at 35yds and 55yds), yep, tumbles at 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300 and 1400fps if the cup blows out. What is frustrating as hell is that over 80% of the published loads are for 2 wads that are out of production. The only answer to making the components that I have, fit as the manual suggests they should, is to smash the wad further by increasing the seating PSI, to 60psi+ assuming that the scale on my MEC is somewhat accurate.

I already contacted BPI and asked them about wad choices for the Lyman 525 since I have purchased items from the in the past, most noteworthy was one of their slug manuals, their reply was that they didn't do any testing for the Lyman slugs and included a link to purchase their ready made brenneke style wads that ran in the neighborhood price of loaded factory slugs.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello and a hearty welcome Smokecloud, you are very right about the loads not fitting the hull as described and they should.
Such is life, don't worry help is on the way, I agree the Claybuster wads are imitation and a waste of money and time.

The only way to do it right is to buy name brand components that have been time tested year after year.

Lets try:
1. 60 lbs wad pressure to shorten the wad column enough to not open.
2. always put a 1 inch piece of plain paper on top of the powder or better yet on the hull equally spaced and then push the wad into the hull this way the wad has excess paper wrapped around for a goog fit when pushed into the hull to stop powder migration.
3. Fold crimp rather than roll.
4. Put at least one .125-16 or 20 ga. nitro card in wad below slug.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Lyman525inwads.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Lyman525inwads.jpg.html)
Look carefully there is a nitro card in wad below the slug to give it a firm solid base.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Lyman31grWSF-Fed12S4Wad.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Lyman31grWSF-Fed12S4Wad.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/44grBlueDotLyman525.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/44grBlueDotLyman525.jpg.html)


If you are using a smooth bore then do your home work by pushing it through for fit:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg.html)

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/1220GaCommodorecopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/1220GaCommodorecopy.jpg.html)

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay
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[dverna]

Ajay has forgotten more about loading slugs than most of us know. I would follow his advice.

BTW, Claybusters are useless for ANY loads. I bought a bunch for trap loads and used them for practice only. Could not wait to use them up. If you do not want to spend the few extra pennies for factory wads, I have had good performance with the clones produced by Downrange. I currently have over 4 cases of their wads for target work.

Don Verna

[Smokecloud]

Thanks for some solid direction. The only claybusters I bought were because they were to replace the WAA12R, since most of the data was for that wad, and its not available by Winchester anymore, so options were limited. I thought it was worth a try, but found that it wasn't. I too, have been trying to use them up for trap loads and that bag sure seems to hang around. the WT12's are the economical version of the WAA12, but are made by Winchester, I have not had any quality issues with them, just fitting correctly with slug/powder. I bought that bag, when you couldn't even backorder a bag of wads last summer. It wasn't a matter of what I wanted, it was the only wads I could find in 4 cities, that single bag. It never got better, so I backordered Federal S3 and S4's from Brownells and just got them a couple of months ago. There is still nothing worth having on shelves around my area, so its not easy to just pick a powder you want or wad and try it. On my next days off, im going to give it another whirl. I really like the Federal wads, especially since I have some, so just need to sort out something with them for now.

[bikerbeans]

smokecloud,

I have two almost full bags of Claybusters, 12g and 20g. I will never load another one in a hull but they do work fairly well as packing peanuts, which is how I plan to get rid of them.

I load 12 & 20 gauge slugs for my wife and son to shoot in 3-gun. I have used the lyman shuttlecock slugs but now I have settled on loading RBs in a wad. Look at VDOMemories, (Ajay) threads on how he loads round balls for slugs. The lee moulds are cheap and I can cast faster with them than I can a mould with a HB pin.


Good luck with your load work up.



BB

[dondiego]

Would the Claybuster wads be usable for Trap or Skeet loads?

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Dondiego, yes, shoot them away as far as you can from you, I would even put a 20 ga 1/16 nitro in wad and then shot as usual to give it a firm base as the plastic looks like recycled cheap material!

I'm very bad as I'm very blunt, bad Sagittarius looking for perfection causing me to be very unhappy, but I try!

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay
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[dondiego]

Come on Mr. SuperBlazingSabots.........tell me what you really think! Blunt is fine with me.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Dondiego, yes go ahead and use them, next time buy the original and no imitation!

I'm very bad as I'm very blunt, bad Sagittarius looking for perfection causing me to be very unhappy, but I try!

"An inventor fails 999 times, and if he succeeds once, he's in.
He treats his failures simply as practice shots. ~ Charles F. Kettering

Best regards,
Ajay
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[dverna]

dondiego,

I shoot trap competitively and I would not use them in competition. They are OK for practice and I suspect skeet is more forgiving.

I am too cheap to use them as "packing peanuts" - LOL - but that is a good use for them too.

Don Verna

[dondiego]

dverna - I had originally bought them for Trap and then I kind of slacked off of that game. The Claybusters certainly didn't work well for slugs. They collapsed upon firing and gave poor patterns. I too, am too cheap to use them for packing peanuts!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I originally bought an bunch of Claybusters for trap shooting and they have worked fine for me. However I am not good enough to know the difference. But they load perfectly with 1 1/8oz of reclaimed shot so I will use them up. I use the same gun and ammo for skeet and they work just fine and I'm in the low 20's consistently with that gun. I also use them in my .410 for Skeet and I'm in the high teens consistently with that gun.

I suck at trap so I shoot it less now. For my usage they work just fine.

I have also loaded a bunch of round balls with these same wads and a 1/4" felt wad and they have performed well for my low intensity use in 3 gun. These were loaded right over my normal trap and skeet loads of 20gr of green dot, and the crimp closed perfectly with only a slight adjustment of the crimp die..

The whole issue with getting the crimp right has to do with the wad/shot column height. If you are using previously fired hulls then the top of the wad petals need to be about 1/16" below the hard line of the crimp or more properly the lowest line of the crimp. When you insert the wad and apply pressure 20-30 lbs is enough, the wad should be in this position. Also the payload needs to be at that height as well to support the crimp so it doesn't fold inside.

You can't really squish it down and expect it to hold it's position and the harder you squish it the more pressure there will be trying to push the crimp back open.

The crimp is supported by the payload but it can't compress the load very much or the load will get pushed back out. You can get by with a little compression just not a lot.

I don't think Claybuster Wads are good for anything above target intensity loads, and they were never intended to be used with slugs, but they sure do sell a lot of them so I don't think they are all bad.

As I said I am not good enough to be able to see the difference. I shoot just as good with my reloads as I do with factory loads so what's the point.

My .02

Randy

[dondiego]

I plan to use them up for light Trap and Skeet loads. They work fine at the 16 yd. line.

[Smokecloud]

I have successfully made some light to moderate skeet loads, 1 1/4 with the claybusters, there is enough shot in them to not notice the poor pattern very much, they will burn up quickly if my shot doesn't run out first.

I finally got around to testing the slugs I loaded up last I was on here. Chrono setup and target only at 30 yards. Win AA gray hull, WAA12 wad, 20.7 gr of Unique, WW209 primer. I upped the seating pressure to 60lbs and things seemed to settle finally, the crimp closed completely and didn't feel like I was bottoming he press out on top of the slug. the petals ever so slightly bulge back out after a few minutes, but still looks good. First time I have ever shot a slug that felt like it was actually a reduced recoil load, but chrono figures were lower than I would like, it was averaging 1050fps. I decided to use the Imp cyl choke tube in my Mossberg JM Pro 22", 5 shots went into about 3", but I have poor sights, so no real ability for fine sighting, I plan on upgrading my sights over the winter, making the front soccer ball, smaller and adding a rear sight. No key holes, but I would like to get my velocity up to at least 1150fps as I have several plates at 75-80 yards I need to be able to hit accurately. I loaded up 3 more tonight at 21.5gr and 3 at 22.0 grains of Unique, I will try them if I get a chance soon and check velocity and see if they are still shooting straight through the target. the wads looked great through the imp cyl choke. I may try the hot glue gun trick on the lymans if the wads cant handle the extra umph as I don't have room to add a nitro card under it with the lymans. I can nitro card the Lee 1oz easily and have it fit. I was excited to finally see a group with the Lymans. I also added some paper over the powder, its a little tricky getting getting the little square of paper in the hull with consistant placement. Thanks Ajay for your direction on this, I still have a lot of tinkering, but have a better outlook on the project now.

If all goes well, I will eventually test the loads again with my rifled choke tube and see if its helping or hindering my project. It seemed to help slightly with the Lee slugs with the small amount of testing I have done with them.

[Hogtamer]

Smoke, I found that Federal hulls solved most of my problems. They will give you the space you need to add a nitro card and tweak your loads to get the velocity you want and maintain accuracy.

[Smokecloud]

Tried upping the powder today on the Unique with WAA12 wads, 21.5 gr, then to 22.5 grains, which ended up around 1110fps. I was a little underwhelmed at the velocity increase as the recoil came up noticeably. It was still not teeth rattling, but not the powder puff loads of a few days ago. I decided to swap out some components as the light was fading, trying to get a few shots across the chrono before the sun left completely. I found a load listed with the Win AA Hull (gray ones, I have about 500 of and want to use) and switched to 23.0 gr of Herco, but with a Federal FS4 Wad, I cut the petals down to match the height of the slug without a card. Those AA hulls just don't have the volume to add the card, anyway, crimp was perfect, shot it across the chrono and averaged 1150fps, which was about 30fps slower than the book. I found the load listed in the 1 1/4 oz shot section in the Lyman. My Lymans drop out of the mould at about 505grains, I use Wheel weights and water quench the slugs out of the mould. So, my data is really closer to the 1 1/8 oz data, but I was concerned about using the Federal Wad in the Win Hull. I am still having fits with getting the little paper square inside the case with any consistency, it either wads up in the bottom, or tears out and slides up the sides of the wads. I have about 2 bags of these wads, so plenty to play with, but I would like more velocity. Im considering upping my charge to 23.5gr of Herco, or 24.0 gr, which there is no direct book listing for that combo since Im way under 1 1/4 oz and looking at that data with a suggestion of 23.0, I really would like the loads closer to 1200fps before I go try them at distances. Funny part is that all of my impacts on target have been in the same 3" area, no matter what velocity or wad, or powder, I expected to see it come down and left with the faster velocities.

I only have a few Federal Hulls, I will work on picking up some more at the range when they are available, but for now, I have ample amounts of the AA hulls and really like the gray color for I.D. of the slugs when im shooting 3gun. After reading about the Round Balls, I was almost ready to give them a go, but need to read more on them first. One problem Im trying to avoid, is where I read that the Lymans tumble after going subsonic, so 75 yard plates could be very difficult if I don't have enough velocity up front, that doesn't seem to be a problem with Round Balls, or Foster slugs. I really don't care if they were only going 500fps when they got there, as long as they continued on a straight path.

[Smokecloud]

I scored a bottle of Longshot powder and loaded up 29.0 gr according to lyman 5th edition for 1 1/4 oz shot data. again my lymans drop at 505 to 508 so they are safely underweight. Same Win AA gray hull and Fed 12S4 wads w petals cut down to top of slug. i finally figured out AJs paper square method from one of his posts on another forum. works well. anyhow crimp is perfect. i shot 5 at 90 yards out of a remmy 870 smoothbore w bead sight and had 3 shot group around 3" w two more out opening the entire group 6-7" and no keyholes. i loaded up 5 more when i got home and shot them at 30 yards through my mossberg 930 after puttimg my rifled choke tube in. about 3" group and one chrono read of 1366 fps before the battery died. no keyholes. i hotglue filled the rear of the slugs and the wads recovered were in fair shape. i think i might have a keeper.

[Smokecloud]

amazing. Final two posts by me, over 800 views and no comments or further advice. feeling pretty lonely on this board.

[mac60]

smokecloud, I've got a comment. If I was getting that kind of results at 90 yds. through a smoothbore, I'd be highly satisfied. Reloading slugs for a smoothbore just hasn't been working out for me. I think you have a keeper too.

[runfiverun]

i have had rifles barely hang out at 3" at 90 yards, a smoothbore shotgun doing that is excellent.

[Smokecloud]

90920

this was the 90 yard group with a smoothbore 18" Remmy 870

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Smokecloud, that is simply great shooting and that too from a smooth bore, no need to fire 5 shots.

Look at it from a hunting point of view, you will fire one well placed shot and if need be a second shot so when testing your gun for accuracy all you need is 3 shots and space them apart lets say 30 to 45 seconds apart.
Please post your results here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222977-Range-results-4-LR-challenge-thread
Great shooting!

Best regards,
Ajay Madan
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[jmort]

I'd call that success. Congratulations and thanks for range report.

[MT Chambers]

For makin' slug loads I'd get the roll crimper that fits on a drill/drillpress and crimp 'em till their tight, better then fartin' around with a fold crimp that doesn't stay done up.

[tommag]

I've got no advice, as I spend most of my time on the road, and only occasionally play with slugs/roundballs. I only wish I could get groups like that from a smooth bore!

[weweber3]

What was your final set of components and setup?

I am struggling to get geniune Win and Fed wads locally.

Trying to take notes on others success.

I will be working with the Lee 1oz.

[Smokecloud]

I have loaded up about 50 more to play with, but work schedule and weather has kept me from testing more. My final load components for that were as follows

~Winchester AA-HS 2 3/4" Hulls (gray)
~Winchester 209 Primer
~Federal 12S4 wad, with petals cut down even with the top of the slug
~29.0 grains of Longshot Powder
~525 grain Lyman slug-cast from Wheel Weights and water quenched for hardness, they drop at an average of 508gr, then fill the rear of the slug with a hot glue gun, let it set for a day, then cut flush with a razor
~small 1" paper square to prevent powder migration (thanks Ajay)
seat slug and wad to 60psi then fold crimp.

I got the recipe in Lymans 5th edition for 1 1/4 oz shot data, my slugs are closer to 1 1/8 oz, so there is a safety margin. From memory, the Lyman manual listed 1380fps for that load, I got an average of 1350 and am attributing it to the semi auto action reducing the velocity, I have seen this with a few loads, when compared to the 870, even though the 870 is a 18" and the 930 is a 22"

As far as 3 vs 5 shots, I would have fired 20 if I had them, as I was far more concerned with making positive that there is no more key holing. Im not looking for hunting rounds, I shoot 3gun and have a need for an economical slug that has some reduced recoil, but one match that I like to compete in, is the MGM Ironman, I typically need 150 slugs Minimum for the 3 days of shooting. I usually take at least 250. that's a lot of slugs and really wanted to abuse my shoulder a little less, but the longshot is still pretty stiff at 1350 fps, but it definitely is no where near as punishing as the Federal 1610fps slugs I ran the last two years. The last problem I was hoping to cure was the leading problem I was experiencing with factory slugs. for whatever reason, my 930 Mossberg leads terribly and after 50 slugs, it looked like an old rotten sewer pipe, it took a drill and wire brush and at least 30 min of work to get it out for the next day. With the Lymans and shotcups, there is only plastic fouling at a minimal level.

components are still horrible to acquire, I had a bag of the Fed 12s4's backordered for several months just to try them. I happened to find another bag on the shelf at Sportsmans Warehouse, so I snagged it. while unsuccessfully powder shopping last week, I managed to find another single bag of the Federal 12s4 at a prepper store and didn't look at it twice, its still very very rare to find anything on the shelf at all, and if you do find something, its always claybuster's. I have about 700 of the wads that seem to be working now, that's enough to be comfortable with, do an adequate amount of testing and then load enough for the summer.

I also have about 200 of the Lee 1oz slugs I have not done much with, I traded some lead to a guy in exchange for him making them for me before I had my own mold. He said he used Win AA hulls, WAA12 wads, Win 209 primers and 44gr of Blue Dot, I swear I saw that load listed somewhere, but I can not find it now that im looking for it. I have about 4lbs of blue dot that's been around for a lot of years, but is still good and I would love to confirm that load so I can burn some of the BD up. My 930 has the rifled Carlsons choke tube installed right now, I did shoot a few Lees through it with a different load and the rifled choke seemed to be very beneficial to the Lee's, but I don't have a good load for them at the current time.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Smokecloud: After reading all this and finding out you are shooting 3 gun I have a recommendation. I have shot exactly two of those Federal Slugs and they dislocated one of my ribs and I had to go to the Chiro twice to get it put back!

If you are only toning it down to 1350 fps what I don't understand is why you don't go farther. Beating yourself up with these heavy slugs is pointless, and especially if you are going to shoot 150 over three days?

Dude: you must be a stout boy. I can't even come close to doing that. But my main point is why do it at all.

In three gun you have to either hit a steel target at less than 50 yds., or poke a hole in a paper target. It doesn't take that much to do either.

I load 1 1/8 oz. trap loads of 18-19 gr of Green Dot with a WAA12 un modified wad with a .622 round ball that weighs 422 gr, or slightly less than 1 oz. The ball is sitting on top of a 1/4" felt wad to cushion the shot. They are running at about 1100 FPS! from a Smoothbore barreled M500. I use Win AA hulls mostly, or throwaway Win Universals or Fed cheapo hulls if I can't pick up my hulls.

These simple loads do everything you need and they don't begin to beat you at all. I can shoot 200 of them in one day since they are exactly like my standard Trap/Skeet loads, and I routinely shoot 200-250 in one day for those games. I am average size, and 64 YO.

I load my buckshot loads exactly the same way except the payload is 000 buck that I cast.

You mentioned problems with Leading. I don't have those problems since the ball is inside the wad, and never touches the barrel.

If you are planning on hunting with your slug loads then I say fine, but these lighter loads are completely adequate for any three gun uses I have seen, and they are much easier on the bod.

Randy

[Smokecloud]

roundball interests me, i had not read anything about a .622 diameter though. only .678 .690 and larger. i found that i had to drive the lymans faster to stabilize them. the steel targets at the Ironman are mostly around 80 yards and keeping velocity fast enough to group well at that distance was my goal. i do have a lower powered load at 1150 fps but different components and bulges the crimp a little but still shoots fine out to 50 yards but not 80. tell me more about your RB setup. what mold are you using?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Smoke: it is a regular Lyman RB mould. It drops at .662-3 ( I apologize for my earlier typo of .622) I told you I'm 64 and my mind is almost gone,,, [smilie=w:

The petals on the Claybuster WAA12 clones I use are .035 thick. x 2 = .070 + .662=.732. cylinder bore on my M500 is .735 so this is a good fit.

Anything from a smooth bore is going to be iffy beyond 50 yds. But all I can say is try them and see what happens. I sighted my gun in on clay pigeons on the 50 yard berm at our range. Had no problem hitting them with open sights on the M500 20" bbl.