Newbie muzzleloader shooter, American Pioneer Powder

[madsenshooter]

I've had this ultra cheap muzzleloader, that I bought at the local farm store for less than $100, for over 7yrs now. Also some years ago, a friendly gunstore owner talked me into buying a pound of American Pioneer FFg.

After reading the American Pioneer reviews of Randy Wakeman I wasn't expecting a whole lot. Loaded 110gr by volume under TC's 200gr Shockwave sabot (40 cal bullet) and let 3 of them fly in the direction of a 100yd target. The first shot was about 4" high, the next two were 1/2" lower and touching! I don't know what Wakeman was doing wrong, but it appears his evaluation of APP needs updated! I couldn't ask for anything more out of a rifle I paid less than $100 for and a powder that is so easy to clean up after!

The rifle's a CVA Buckhorn and came with a scope and all the accessories a beginner would need. I'm guesstimating that 110gr of powder ought to get that 200gr bullet going slightly over 2000fps. That's in the neighborhood of 35 Rem performance! I'm sighted for 200yds and anxiously awaiting Ohio's muzzleloader season.

I don't know how much it effected the accuracy, if any, but soon after I got the rifle, most of the hollows in the forearm got filled with epoxy. I'll have to see how it does with some of the Lee Modern Minnie bullets I have a mold for, but for this year, I've got plenty of the 200gr Shockwaves.

[johnson1942]

american pioneer powder has a very poor review on the web. muzzle loaders are fun and when you get done shooting up that pioneer powder buy something else. real black is best, blackhorn 209 is just as good but only goes off in inlines or can be used in a side lock with a duplex load with good results. i cant help you with the others but try something else when you use it up.

[roverboy]

I've got a CVA Buckhorn too. Its a shooter with Goex 2f and Tripple 7 behind just about anything I want to shoot in it. I've never tried American Pioneer. I tried 90.0 gr. Goex 2f behind a .44 caliber 240 gr. cast fp in a sabot and got a 1 3/4" 3 shot group at 100 yards. I use 350 gr. Maxi-Hunters with 90 gr. Tripple 7 now. I just wanted a full caliber .50 cal. lead boolit. I bought a bunch off of a guy who makes his own. I need to do the same thing.

[OverMax]

For a 100 bucks and it helps you fill your deep freezer. I'd say whatever powder you chose to shoot you got a bargain there. Never shot APP myself. I guess you could say. _"I never heard anything making me want to try it."_ Other than hearing Jim Shockey's spiel. As always. In the market place. The more money you send on advertizement the better your product sells.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

My experience is that you give up about 10% power using American Pioneer and velocity is not very consistent vs. BP. Even though AP residue is not as corrosive as BP my opinion is that BP is the way to go.

[madsenshooter]

I also have Triple 7 and pyrodex pellets. I am not interested in shooting any 150gr loads! A couple 777 pellets also shot good the one other time I shot it. The wind was blowing in my face when I shot the first APP shot the other day. The smoke was pretty acrid, as one would expect of ascorbic acid. An asthmatic would likely need a bit of time before starting to reload if he got a breath of it.

[Lead Fred]

all that wasted powder

[johnson1942]

roverboy: i like to hear about the kind of groups you get with blackpowder and sabots. it dont get better than that. thanks for post

[roverboy]

roverboy: i like to hear about the kind of groups you get with blackpowder and sabots. it dont get better than that. thanks for post

Yeah, it shoots good, and I don't know why. I've not shot it much in the last few years though. I gave $110.00 total for it.

[OnHoPr]

I tried it a couple of years ago with more max type loads and it didn't do that well, but neither did 777 in a few sabot combos. IMO it is the cleanest powder I've used so far. I did try it on a couple of occasions with the TC maxi and the PP lee 501 just because it was laying in the box. At 25 and about 40 yards with about 70 gr with the aforementioned boolits I got one ragged hole. Just haven't had time to retest during MZ season and been using a Lee/sabot combo. But it did show very good promise.

[tomcat388th]

Sounds like you got a shooter. Mother in law shoots 100 grains of app out of her cva accura with hornady sst. Her combo is a tack driver I've watched her shred a 2 inch dot shooting off her bypod at 100 yards. I shoot blackhorn 209 out of my Optima with 300 grain 45cal xtps does really well.

[james6600]

Madsenshooter, I have an open container of Shocky's that I have had for 3yrs and my story is the same as yours to this point. The guy who sold it to me said it does absorb moisture, he was right, about a week after opening it started to clump, no big deal I just shook it and they broke up easily. The second year it turned to a solid mass in the container and I had to beat it against the reloading bench to break it up but it still shot good enough to hunt with. This year it was solid again but I could not get it to all break up by smacking the container and load pressures were all over the place. If it is fresh I had good luck with it for hunting accuracy and I liked it but I would buy new every 6-12 months depending on your climate, myself I prefer real black.

[roverboy]

Madsenshooter, I have an open container of Shocky's that I have had for 3yrs and my story is the same as yours to this point. The guy who sold it to me said it does absorb moisture, he was right, about a week after opening it started to clump, no big deal I just shook it and they broke up easily. The second year it turned to a solid mass in the container and I had to beat it against the reloading bench to break it up but it still shot good enough to hunt with. This year it was solid again but I could not get it to all break up by smacking the container and load pressures were all over the place. If it is fresh I had good luck with it for hunting accuracy and I liked it but I would buy new every 6-12 months depending on your climate, myself I prefer real black.

Yeah, some of the substitutes collect moisture pretty bad. I started out using Pyrodex RS and it clumped up bad for me. I never had a problem with Goex, and so far not bad with Tripple 7.

[fouronesix]

I wondered when someone with experience with Clear Shot, Clean Shot, APP, Shockey's, or whatever the latest iteration of that powder is, was going to bring up that little detail. I was given a partial can of it- wonder why. Solid lump. I just pitched it out. A friend was given a partial can of it- same story solid lump. Being Scotch, he breaks it up and shoots it :). A hassle I would just as soon avoid.

[waksupi]

It makes the little hairs stand up on the back of my neck to read about people beating a can of powder to break it up. Anyone else see any potential hazard to this?

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Lunacy.

[madsenshooter]

I've had mine a couple years or more, but was careful with the seal. What I had stored in the charge tubes started to stick together though.

[james6600]

Lol I figured there would be a comment on me hitting it on the reloading bench. Its a plastic jug that I tap on the edge of my table while rotating and working up the bottle, if I took the lid off to release the air I could squeeze the jug with light pressure and accomplish the same thing but would probably spill it. It is way less abuse than it received in the back of a semi trailer or going through the local delivery people. It's not real cohesive, once it's broke in 2 or 3 clumps you could put it in your pocket jog to the end of your drive and back and it would be broke up. My cap seal is in good shape, I even put silica packets in it and nothing helped. I don't believe it has a graphite coating like black and that's why it sticks to itself.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

It makes the little hairs stand up on the back of my neck to read about people beating a can of powder to break it up. Anyone else see any potential hazard to this?

Aww, c'mon, what could possibly go wrong?

[dondiego]

I pound finely ground black powder into cardboard tubes using a hammer and an aluminum rod with quite heavy blows all of the time. Makes quite good rocket engines. That ought to scare the beegeebers out of some of you! Don't know if the fake powders are sensitive to impact or not but real BP isn't.

[Whiterabbit]

I see no reason not to use substitutes in cheap inlines. They aren't real guns anyways, right? :kidding:

Anyways, I use APP 3F in my handi rifle. Shoots just fine at 50 yards. Put bead on animal you want to die. Pull trigger. It's just that easy. My groups aren't as good as the OP, but I use open sights so I can keep it "primitive" (by CA standards). But offhand the target doesn't know the difference. I even handed the rifle to someone who never shot a muzzleloader before and he put a bullet smack into the middle of a steel plate, standing offhand. Can't ask for better than that.

BP is hard for me to get and is thus a precious commodity. I save it for the flinter because whatever maximizes shooting time with the flinter must be done. That gun is a prize. APP is the same cost but I can get it local. So that gets saved for the cheapy inline.

[johnson1942]

whitrabbit, you make a good point for all you who live in wooded areas and the yardage is 50 yards. however their a some of us like here in western ne. that shoot deer at a average of 125 to 150 yards. thats why i use only black and my guns are tack drivers. they have to be out here or you would never get a deer. my son did get one last year at 75 yards but that doesnt happen very often. the several deer before that was the 125 to 150 yard distance.

[james6600]

dondiego, As far as your rocket motors you can compress BP an enormous amount, enough to bulge, split and destroy a brass case safely, as far as a hammer I wouldn't consider it with anything but a wood rod and rubber dead blow to avoid high velocity pressure spikes and even then I would be gentle. Again as far as OP I find APP to be very usable for round ball work on game with the realization It has a limited shelf life for me. That's as far as I explored the product. Maybe my lack of further exploration was lunacy... sorry I couldn't resist.