44 Special brass in a 44 Magnum

[LET-CA]

I have a Winchester 94 - 44 magnum. Due to the 94's sensitivity to overall case length, I had the bright idea to use some 44 special brass with bullets like the 429244, but load them a little hotter than standard 44 special loads. I'm sure this can't be a new idea, but I'd like to hear from some of you that have done this.

I know I can't use 44 magnum loads due to the smaller case size, but I like the idea of not having the bullet being seated so far beyond the crimp groove.

Any info would be appreciated.

[Scrounger]

Interesting topic, I've had such thoughts myself. Anyone notice that although the .44 Special case is shorter, the cartridge has the same max overall length as the .44 Magnum? If loaded rounds are the same length, then there is more of the bullet in the Magnum case, and the powder chamber is the same for both. What does this all add up to? I don't know, I'm asking questions, not giving answers.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have a reworked '92 in 44 Special that holds and feeds 14 in the mag. It likes a diet of 255gn Kieth type boolits but at 44 Spec loads (esp in the '92)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/44spl_A.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/44spl_C.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

wow that reciever sure colared up nice!

[Bret4207]

Ooooohhh! That's purty!!! Betcha my 2 old Marlins would look nice like that! Who did the work?

[square butte]

Bad As Wallace, I have often wondered about having a Win. 92 or 53 reworked in .44 mag and had questions about sufficient action stenghth, case length, etc.. Then I saw one that had been done in .44 mag. at an auctuion ( marked Montana Sate Police). Did you think of .44 mag and if so what considerations came up that made you do yours in special.

[LET-CA]

Beautiful gun, but - back to my original question. . . Can I load 44 specials with loads approaching 44 magnums, if cartridges are used only in a 44 magnum?

[MtGun44]

If you use .44 mag powder charges in .44 special cases you have
two problems. First, the reduced case volume will substantially increase your
pressures. Second, the maker of the .44 special cases may have ( likely?)
designed the case wall thickness and head thickness and brass hardness
for .44 special pressures.

Section a .44 mag case and .44 spl case of the intended brand to be used
and then measure the head thickness and case wall thickness
and be governed accordingly.

Use a chrono to get .44 mag VELOCITIES with reduced powder charges
in the smaller volume .44 spl cases and you will be at the same pressures as .44
mag pressures, which the gun is designed for. You will still be on your own deciding whether the brass is up to the increased pressures. It may actually be, now days, that the brass is the same except for headstamp and length. You must verify this before 'assuming' - (remember what assume means. . . . .)

Be careful. :-D

Bill

PS My 44 mag W94 will work fine with the long Keith boolits in full length cases, where my 92 will not. Have
you actually tried the long cases and boolits?

[Scrounger]

There is the question about relative strengths of the two cases but your post does not address the fact that the parts of the cases holding powder (Combustion chamber) is the same for both cases and I am wondering (Not claiming) if the parts of the cases occupied by the bullets (same bullet weight)
, although different, is not relevant. I don't think you are understanding all that I am saying. I do wish Felix, with his vast store of knowledge, would weigh in on this.

[longuner]

yes the 44 special case is as strong as the 44 mag cases. but can the gun handle the pressuer. and if a keith bullet is used in both cases you do not have more case capacity in the special.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes you can. I make all my 41 special brass out of cut down 41mags and it works fine. One thing that may bite you in the but though is whether there going to run reliably that short in your lever gun. Some run specails and some dont. What might be a better alternative for you would be to trim them just enough to get the bullet to work.

[AlaskaMike]

You'll be fine if you take into account the reduced case volume. Your rifle is chambered for .44 Magnum, so there's absolutely no need to keep your .44 Special loads to SAAMI pressures, unless you wanted to for other reasons (like not wanting them around to get mistakenly loaded in a prized S&W Triple lock for example).

In my Rossi 92 I had good luck with RCBS 44-250-K over a charge of 2400. I don't remember the exact charge weight, so I won't guess. I do remember using 7 grains of Unique with a 200 grain RNFP for a nice light plinker.

Lloyd has a great point about trimming, if the magnum brass is just barely too long. That's the case with my 92 and Keith bullets. The Thompson bullets work just fine for me because they're just a tiny bit shorter. Most of my .44 Mag brass is Starline, but I have a small quantity of Winchester brass that I plan on trimming down and using solely in the 92.

Mike

[felix]

Yes, folks, it is the pressure intended for the case and gun combo. Same gun, same case, then OK, the same pressure is a Go. I don't know if they manufacture 44 special cases from a 44 mag run, but it seems to me they would. Measure the thickness of the cases at the points where the boolit touches when seated. If so, the odds are very good the same sized slugs were used in the production line, and the difference between the cases would only be where they are sawed off. If the sawed off 44 mag is sawed off to special length, then the two cases, one full mag, should be equal in in volume when powder/water is leveled off at the very mouth. Also, compare a special case as marked with a magnum case as marked from the same manufacturer, after the magnum case has been cut down to the same length. The weight should be the same. Cases must be relatively new for this to be a half way good indicator, assuming the same slug composition, but not necessairly the same size. ... felix

[LET-CA]

Thanks to all. I appreciate the inputs.

[slughammer]

If you are getting enough case tension perhaps you can skip the roll crimp. For 444 I am loading 429244 to about 1/2 way up on the front drive band. I am using the 444 Collet type FCD, allthough I see no reason a light roll or taper crimp would not work. Revolvers use a heavy roll crimp to keep the boolits from moving forward under recoil. In a 6lb rifle, the requirements may not be as stringent.

[MtGun44]

In a lever gun the bullet crimp needs to be strong enough to stand
the spring pressure in the mag and the thumping of a full mag of
rounds when the gun recoils, 6 or more rounds slamming into one
bullet is a pretty good lick. In the revolver the bullets are trying to
move fwd, in the levergun, they are getting hammer into the case.

Bill

[Poohgyrr]

Hey BA Wallace,

Congrats on your M92. I couldn't afford a Win M92, and had a 44-40 clone (EMF brand) reworked for less than what the real ones cost around here. 16" barrel, .44 Special, ten rounds in the magazine. A great Lever and my favorite.

Getting back to the question.. .44 magnum wise, at least one load (9.5 gr Unique/ 240 gr LSWC/ Special brass/Special type COAL) does fine in my 16" Win M94/ 44 Mag. I haven't tried the group buy 44 molds loaded in Special brass to magnum COAL yet.


And stout loaded 300 JSP's in Special brass, to magnum COAL, also do fine in my Win M94. I quit this load only because I simply wanted to use the magnum brass for this heavy bullet load.


And the original "44 magnums" were S&W .44 Specials. If I remember right, the M94/1894s are at least as strong as Smith revolvers - as far as magnum pressure type loads.

[S.R.Custom]

...back to my original question. . . Can I load 44 specials with loads approaching 44 magnums, if cartridges are used only in a 44 magnum?

Yes. Years of playing around with the various .44s has taught me that the the powder space in the .44 Spl. is (on average) 81% that of the .44 magnum. In other words-- if all else is equal, multiply the powder charge of the magnum recipe by 0.81 to get the equivalent load for the .44 spl.

As for .44 spl brass vs. Magnum brass, I've not seen any significant difference between the two... but this applies only to brass of recent manufacture. Sectioned, weighed, and inspected brass seems to indicate that .44 magnum brass is the same as spl brass, with the exception that magnum brass is drawn out further. Indeed, all my .44 spl brass these days is stuff I cut down from magnum brass, as I can seat fatter bullets in it and still have room for easy chambering.

[9.3X62AL]

Art--

I think I understand your question--maybe. Are you asking whether a 44 Magnum and 44 Special case--when a bullet is seated so that BOTH cartridges have the SAME overall length (e.g., 1.590")--whether the powder space is identical or nearly so in both cartridges?

If so, that is an interesting question to ponder. Assuming the same metallurgy and case interior contouring between the calibers, the only difference I could see would be in the case's "grip" on the boolit/bullet as enabled by the Magnum case's longer engagement surface with the boolit/bullet sidewall. I think that given the qualifiers above, the powder space dimensions--the "boiler room", if you will--would be very close in volume to one another.

It would follow--if I'm not misreading or misinterpreting here--that Super Mag's 81% formula would apply when the same SEATING DEPTH is used with the same bullet in the 44 Special vs. the 44 Magnum casings. I'm not certain how constant the 81% factor would remain as we start using projectiles with varying seated shank lengths. It might be best in either case to calculate volume in all situations via water weight of full case--know that volume--then deduct the space calculated as that of the seated bullet shank.

Or am I all wet in both instances? That would not be unprecedented.

[Dale53]

If I haven't missed a comment, here, one other thing to be considered - .44 Special cases with .44 magnum equivalent loads could be a "hand grenade" in a small frame .44 Special (such as a Charter Arms, etc). Special care would need to be taken to see that never happens...


Dale53

[S.R.Custom]

...that Super Mag's 81% formula would apply when the same SEATING DEPTH is used with the same bullet in the 44 Special vs. the 44 Magnum casings.

This is true. As I said earlier, all else being equal.


I'm not certain how constant the 81% factor would remain as we start using projectiles with varying seated shank lengths.

The 81% was figured using the 240 gr. Hornady XTP. I measured the shank length, and trimmed that amount from both cases. I then filled the remainder of the cases with 296 and compared the weights. I used 296 as that was the propellant of choice at that moment, and I was getting very inconsistent measurements using water.

Different shank lengths/seating depths will indeed yield different percentages... but not by much. Different powders, however, will yield the same result. The 81% figure is a useful one to reduce by 10% and work up to; there are other variables that will affect this as well, such as variation between case brands, etc.

[9.3X62AL]

Cool deal. Thanks for the "real world/been there/done that" info. "Been there/done that" trumps calculation every time. WW-296 or WC-820 is a lot more manageable than water, by a long margin.

[LET-CA]

To clarify for some of the readers here, the 44 Special brass is of new manufacture (Winchester) and will only be used in a Winchester 94 Lever Action chambered for 44 Magnum. Due to the length of some of the bullets it's difficult to get good feeding through the action using 44 Magnum brass. By using shorter brass I can make up for some of the bullets length and just use a somewhat reduced charge. I should think that the pressures spec'd for 44 specials are unneccessarily low for this specific use.

Since I don't own a firearm chambered in 44 special, I'm not concerned about using these shells in the wrong place. Again, thanks to all for the wealth on inputs on this issue.

[376Steyr]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of the shorter case depositing a ring of gunk (to use a highly technical term) at the point between the case mouth and the end of the Magnum chamber. When a Magnum-brass load is used later, it may not chamber. This condition is most often seen with 357 Magnums shooting 38 Wadcutters. Brownell's even sells a special reamer to clean it out of revolver cylinders. Getting a lever action rifle's chamber clean is a trickier proposition. That's why I use 357 brass for all my shooting in my Marlin 1894.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of the shorter case depositing a ring of gunk (to use a highly technical term) at the point between the case mouth and the end of the Magnum chamber. When a Magnum-brass load is used later, it may not chamber. This condition is most often seen with 357 Magnums shooting 38 Wadcutters. Brownell's even sells a special reamer to clean it out of revolver cylinders. Getting a lever action rifle's chamber clean is a trickier proposition. That's why I use 357 brass for all my shooting in my Marlin 1894.

Someone probably mentioned it already, but another option is just to trim the cases until you get reliable feeding. Mick.

[9.3X62AL]

Per 376 Steyr's text, I long ago stopped using Special brass in Magnum chambers--revolver or rifle. That pressure-baked-on ring of ca-ca is a total PITA to clean out.

[S.R.Custom]

Per 376 Steyr's text, I long ago stopped using Special brass in Magnum chambers--revolver or rifle. That pressure-baked-on ring of ca-ca is a total PITA to clean out.

Not really. Let the build-up soak a bit with Hoppe's, then take your chamber brush and chuck it up in your favorite cordless drill...