Shooting with my wife, help?

[KYShooter73]

I'm trying to help my wife with her shooting form. She is shooting a M&P9c. 124gn trunicated cone over 4.0gn of Longshot. Light load. She is jamming about every 3rd shot. I'm going to up the charge to 4.5 and see if that helps, because I think she is limp wristing her grip. I don't believe she is hitting the slide lock or anything. I took the same weapon, same mags, and same ammo, fired 50 with nary a problem. See what you think. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SnsNsARlnnQ

[MtGun44]

Gun should still work, even if limp wristed. More powder is a good move.

Bill

[KYShooter73]

I should have added that I can induce a malfunction with this combo, just barely holding the weapon with my fingertips.

[pmer]

Have her grab your hand in a firm hand shake and let her know that's how she should hold on to it with both hands. Then have her lock her wrists more and tell her she is on track when she can feel the recoil in her arms more so than her wrists. Then the BTF FTF should go away.

And try to keep it fun.

[RED333]

Good advice, yep I had the same happen with my wife, all good now.

[Liberty'sSon]

When I first read the post title, I didn't see the word "with". It completely changes the meaning.:kidding:

[dmize]

I would do something about Bowzer before something horrible happens.

[Finster101]

Is your dog a Belgian?

[KYShooter73]

Black German Shepherd pup. That was nothing, she tries (and does) catch brass. If I could just teach her to put it in a bucket I would be in business. Definitely not gun shy.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was going to add, your wife needs a set of glasses. But the dog definitely has to be out of the picture. It's downright dangerous to have it running around in front of the gun! Nobody can concentrate with that kind of distraction going on.

First: Her grip is atrocious, she is not controlling the gun hardly at all. As a result she is "limp wristing" the gun which is why it was malfunctioning.

I have written several times about proper grip on a handgun and I went back and found the posts and edited them for this situation.

I don't want to hear "she can't or won't try it". If so take the gun away from her as she will never be any good and will be dangerous to those around her. Sorry, but shooting is wielding "Deadly Force and it is to be taken very seriously, and especially with a handgun that can be pointed in an unsafe direction very easily.


<<<>>>


First: Grip the empty gun between the lower three fingers and the heel of your hand, have your strong hand thumb pointing strait up next to the slide. (pics 1,2&5) The thumb does nothing! And your trigger finger is totally free to only touch the gun with the forward portion of the finger while the rest of the finger is off the gun. The gun is held simply by the pressure of the three fingers pressing the grip of the gun into the heel of your hand. Nothing else. See pic #5

After you get this part of the grip down you will then add your support hand to the grip by wrapping your top three fingers around the bottom three fingers of your strong hand, and place your support thumb behind your strong thumb. This will insure that your thumbs impart no influence on the gun as you press the trigger rearwards. Pics 3&4

Next; You pull the gun into the heel of your strong hand using pressure from your support fingers which are on top of your strong hand fingers. By pushing forward with your strong arm into your support hand you build Isometric tension on the gun which steadies the gun. One arm pulls against the other while the other is pushing forward. This controls the recoil of the gun and promotes correct gun function.

By having your trigger finger completely separate from this activity it allows total control of the trigger. The Thumbs do nothing!!!

It will take a while for here to fully grasp this concept and get this grip thing down, but I assure what I have told you above is the easiest way to achieve it. She must understand that she needs to hold onto this thing like she means it. No room here for weak handing, she has to grip the gun and doing it like stated above will insure that she does. It will take plenty of repetition for her to succeed.

Get her to follow the pictures and read and re read the instructions until she gets the grip right. You can do it too!

She needs to master the grip and the basic operation of this particular piece while the gun is UNLOADED !!!! It's called "Dry Practice." This is done until she has a reasonable command of controlling the weapon. Including inserting a magazine and racking the slide without fumbling around.

Then you start her shooting with live ammo.

If she can duplicate what I have shown here she will be able to become a good pistol shooter. I have watched hundreds of women who didn't even know which end of the gun the bullet came out of become competent in a few days of controlled practice.

IT ALL STARTS WITH THE GRIP !!!!!!!

I hope this helps, and put the dog in the house.

Randy

[KYShooter73]

Very nice, thank you. I'll have her read this write up and give it a go. I'm more of a left thumb forward on the frame/bottom of slide gripper myself, but your method may work better for her.

[FergusonTO35]

Randy, thanks for that tutorial. I needed that too!!

[colt 357]

Yep I would go with a little more powder it barely kicking out the spend cases. my guns start having problems when I get below 4 grains of unquie. I run my 9's at about 4.3 grains of unquie and they run fine.

[KYShooter73]

I normally use Bullseye, Unique, or Power Pistol. No Alliant powders are coming down the pipe in my part of the world. I'm using whatever I can get.

[trochilids]

My wife had pretty bad problems with FTF/FTE with her S&W M&P Shield 9mm initially, all with factory ammo. The frustrating part is that in a "real" situation you may not have the opportunity to get a proper hold when firing to prevent those malfunctions. Then the gun turns into a one-shot wonder. But with more practice (and CCW training) the malfunctions have drastically reduced with her. And clearing the malfunctions is becoming more second-nature, too. With confidence and practice her technique is becoming more professional, and that's always fun to watch.

I've shot the gun a bunch, too, without incident. User-related issue, apparently.

[W.R.Buchanan]

KY Shooter:

Please understand, she will have to read and re read those instructions MANY TIMES, to get the complete picture. It took me 5 trips to Front Sight to get this down and completely understand what they were trying to teach me. All I have done here is to break it down into the simplest form so that anyone can understand it without a bunch of conflicting input. If you and her just do this,,, you will be successful. Try it for a few ,,,, Weeks! it will grow on you.

Dry Practice frequently. Shoot once in a while.

This is NOT something you just fall into. It takes practice and you actually have to work at it.

These instructions will yield a proper "Weaver Stance" and grip, which is considered by most knowledgeable shooters to be the most versatile "Fighting Stance.."

Note; in the pics how my left arm/elbow is pointing strait down. Also my right arm is at 90 degrees to the left arm, similar to the standard NRA Marksman Rifle Stance we all grew up with where the right arm is at 90 degrees to the left arm when supporting the rifle.

With the thumb under you will show effects of thumb influence on your trigger control. Also you will control the recoil better with this method. This results in quicker and more accurate follow up shots.

All of this must be coupled to drawing the gun from a nice plastic holster. Loading and unloading the gun and clearing malfunctions quickly and efficiently.

Once both of you can do all of this with some degree of proficiency you will be well equipped to deal with just about any hostile circumstance you may face in KY. IE: you will be better than about 95% of the armed people out there. Besting that last 5% will take some serious work.

For everyone reading this; I cannot stress enough that you must read and reread the instructions many times to get the complete picture. NOBODY gets it on one read thru.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

So,,, How's your wife's shooting coming?

Haven't heard back since the earlier post. It took me about an hour to write that post and I would really like to see some results for the effort.

Randy

[KYShooter73]

She is doing quite a bit better. She went to an all day course Saturday (and I tagged along) with a female instructor. I havent had time to get to the range with her since then for us to have one on one time. Ill keep you updated and try to get another quick video next time we shoot. One thing I found out that was bothering her was long fingernails! Her nails on her right hand were digging into her support hand when she was maintaining a firm grip. Just clipping her nails made a big difference. We will probably get some time this weekend and Ill report on her progress. Thanks so much.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Progress Report?

Randy

[KYShooter73]

No report yet, we have been on a little trip and have not yet got to shoot any.

[Ghost101]

Well I shouldn't add my 2 cents but here goes. First that was an excellent write up on two handed firing, really great job. I have used that same grip for many yrs. with my wheel guns.
But you must teach her an yourself how to shoot one handed. Not only at yardage but very close up! Move that target up to five feet, then three and even closer. The two handed hold is not going to work at these ranges. Plus even if it could there would not be enough time to get it into play. Fire the gun as close to your body as possible leaving your off hand to fight off your attacker. A fixed blade knife is also excellent for backup. Learn to use both hands for shooting an reloading in all kinds of positions.
I pray that it will never come down to this, but things happen at this close range all the time. I'm not an instructor or have I been instructed. I don't wish to argue anyones point, nor hurt anyones feelings!

Take it for what it's worth, but it will be better to be prepared for this then not.

Ghost101

[Stephen Cohen]

I think WR covered the grip problem very well. If I may offer one life saving tip, without giving offence. Please teach her to keep her finger off that trigger while clearing a stoppage and with the pistol in a vertical position. I know of at least one case in this country where that resulted in the gun discharging and a second shot being fired up through the shooters jaw. I have spend a whole day with a good friend trying to make him remember to remove finger from the trigger unless on target, its not just a female problem males do it to. I think its great your wife wants to shoot, we need more of it.

[kungfustyle]

I had a hard time with my wife's 45ACP. Two questions, are you separating the seating and crimping during reloading???? If not try it. 2nd have you tried to chamber each round in the barrel? Field strip the barrel and drop each loaded round into the barrel. If it sticks up just a little try putting a hair more crimp on that one and try it again. These two things have taken my hair pulling shooting adventure to a fun afternoon. 10 more minutes at the reloading bench makes for better shooting. Hope that helped. Jeff

[NSP64]

Use a faster powder like 231. Get the initial slide velocity going first and you should be able to shoot it any way you want. Video looked like slide was ejecting but not far enough back to cleanly strip next round from the mag.

I agree with ghost101 on different styles of shooting/fighting. They must be taught for real world scenarios.

I load the wife's 9mm with lee 125gr rnfp boolits over 3.0 gr 231. never a FTF or FTE.


My M-11 clone gobbles them up also.

[KYShooter73]

The fte issue was fixed with a little more powder. I do a very light crimp in a separate stage. The real problem was her grip and limp wristing. Like I said last night, we havent been able to shoot much since my first post, so it is still a work in progress. I dont disagree with you at all Ghost101, but basics have to come first. Im sure we will get to one handed strong and weak hand along with plenty of other drills. +1 Stephen Cohen. I will keep an eye on that.

[Love Life]

How's the shooting going? When I first started with my wife, I went Range NCO Nazi on her about safety, stance, etc. Once she got the basics down se asked me to shut up and let her shoot.

She still shoots a handgun better than I do, and her and her girlfriends are the reason I keep at least 1,000 rds of 9mm loaded at all times. Sure am glad she doesn't like the 45 acp...

[W.R.Buchanan]

When she gets the grip down pat come back and I will go into the draw.. This is a 5 step process that results in a safe fast draw. After just a short time of drilling she will be able to draw her gun and hit a 5 yard target twice in 1.5 seconds.

This takes a lot of drilling and shooting but is obtainable in 4 short days at a Front Sight Class. Seen literally hundreds of men and women progress to this level in that time frame.

I have heard that they are trying to find a location back east for another Front Sight Facility. If it happens I will alert everyone so that they can make a class. Believe me these people know how to teach "just about anyone" how to shoot. Obviously there are exceptions but they number in the tens and are not even up to one, one hundredth of one percent of all the students taught . This outfit is running 60,000 plus per year thru their school in Nevada.

I can only do so much over the phone ,,, so to speak.

But always willing to try.

Randy