.30 XCB wildcat, from scratch.

[geargnasher]

Somebody had to start this, so I'm jumping in. The .30 XCB is a joint project among several CB members, particularly Larry Gibson, Runfiverun, Btroj, and myself; Goodsteel (Tim) of MBT is the builder.

What we wanted to create is a versatile wildcat with potential for extreme accuracy, high velocity, and low expense to be used primarily, but not necessarily exclusively, with cast boolits. Part of the economy is being able to use several different and abundant parent cases for brass, and to end up with something that will feed easily in most rifle actions, especially large-ring Mausers. We accomplished this by essentially short-chambering a tight-necked .30-'06 to 57mm which enables the use of modified factory '06 dies for reloading, and following the SAAMI-spec throat design allows for the use of a variety of .30-caliber cast boolit designs.

Other advantages of the case include the natural taper of the '06 which tends to extend the pressure curve of any given powder slightly vs. more "straight" designs, a capacity which should enable up to 2600 fps with reasonable pressure and projectiles in the 150-180-grain arena, and being able to eliminate the off-center head bulges of typical once-fired brass through resizing in a cut-down factory die. The straight neck has its own advantages.

Tim just finished his work on my barreled action and returned it to me, I have to say I'm duly impressed. He de-marred and refinished my factory barrel nut, machined a thicker and perfectly flat recoil lug from scratch, chased the threads out on my barrel tenon, cut off and re-chambered to .30 XCB with his custom-made, TRUE floating reamer support, refaced the action, and put it all together for me exactly per my requests. No extra fluff on this one, it is a plain Savage 110. I'm planning to put this in a custom-built, laminate benchrest stock but for the time being the flimsy factory one will do.

This is a fresh start for me, so I'll chronicle my experiences and hope the others will chime in as their rifles are completed.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I sure hope it works for you Ian. I did my best.

[geargnasher]

It shot pretty well as a .308 with the chamber .0035" off center, the neck about .004" larger than the thickest brass I could make or find, and the face of the receiver .004" outta whack. It can only be improved by your work.

I look forward to some intense high-velocity lube testing now that some of the built-in accuracy handicaps are removed.

Gear

[felix]

Ian, what is the case capacity? Tim, did you cut the barrel to 21.75 per warehouse suggestions? Ian, is 2600 that important to override possible vibe containment? ... felix

[HARRYMPOPE]

Factory Savage 308 Barrel? How far did you set it back to get rid of the 308's shoulder in the 30-06 body before rechambering?

[MBTcustom]

IIRC, I cut 1/2" off the barrel tenon or thereabouts. After I was sure the barrel was running true and stress free, I drilled the shoulder back, then cleaned the surfaces up with a boring bar. Then slipped the reamer into the barrel and pushed it deeper till the old chamber was gone. Of course, at that point the headspace gauge would slip into the chamber about 3/8" LOL! so then, I started trimming off the tenon till I got on the gauge with the bolt face. Just fiddle fiddle fiddle, tweak tweak tweak, keep dinking with it till it's right.
Building a rifle is like raising a child. It comes in the door a spoiled brat, but after a long time and many corrections, it will be obedient, honest, disciplined, and handsome.

[41 mag fan]

Building a rifle is like raising a child. It comes in the door a spoiled brat, but after a long time and many corrections, it will be obedient, honest, disciplined, and handsome.

And you end up with a lot less hair!!!

Good job on the build Tim. I'll be interested in seeing what Gear and the others come up with on accuracy with this wildcat.

[Love Life]

Do you have any pictures of the brass? I keep picturing a long neck 308 in my mind.

[Pat I.]

I did something similar years back but used a spare 03-A3 barrel I had and fit it to a Ruger action I had laying around. I used a 35 Rem as the parent case and cut a 06 die off until the body length looked good and used that as a head space gauge. I then cut off the chamber until it head spaced. Once I found out it would shoot alright I chambered up a Shilen barrel for my bench gun and used it for a season. It shot alright but no better than a 30 BR so I rechambered the barrel to BR and never looked back. It was good experience though. Below is a picture of the finished case next to an 06. If I remember right I was calling it a 30/35

[Hamish]

OK, just to be clear gear, are you saying that you have moved the shoulder back 5mm, so that the neck is now 5mm longer?

Recently Jim and I were discussing lengthening the neck on 7.92x57 to 8mm-06 length, (63mm) as a cure for below the neck seating of heavyweight boolits, specifically the Lee 8mm Maximum.

[MBTcustom]

The shoulder was moved back .254 inches.

[geargnasher]

Ian, what is the case capacity? Tim, did you cut the barrel to 21.75 per warehouse suggestions? Ian, is 2600 that important to override possible vibe containment? ... felix

I haven't made a pound cast yet, but capacity should be close to 7mm Mauser with commercial '06 brass. The barrel is a bit long, but there are so many viable options for boolit weight, powder type, primers, and even buffer/filler if necessary that I'm not too worried about tuning it and synching longitudinal/radial nodes. 2600 is a raw number I came up with for a practical upper limit, likely when things come together on the upper end with the alloy I plan to use I will be in the 2350-2400 range with 175-grain boolits and some flavor of 4350, or a combination of things to achieve the same effective burn rate but with a slower start. My first loads will probably be about 12.5 grains of Unique with a full workup to feel the nodes.

Harry, the barrel is a pre-fit Eabco .308 Palma match barrel, 1-in-12", six-groove, with a .3076 groove x.3000 bore. It was a shame to cut it down, as it would have made a fantastic jacketed shooter, but I bought it with this in mind and played with it some while Tim was acquiring equipment.

Gear

[geargnasher]

OK, just to be clear gear, are you saying that you have moved the shoulder back 5mm, so that the neck is now 5mm longer?

Recently Jim and I were discussing lengthening the neck on 7.92x57 to 8mm-06 length, (63mm) as a cure for below the neck seating of heavyweight boolits, specifically the Lee 8mm Maximum.

It's a normal .30-'06 with a .337", straight neck short-chambered by .254", which should be about 56.55 mm. Imagine a .30-'06 with the case head moved forward a quarter inch.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

The cartridge should look very close to the one on the left which is the 30x57 (my name for it is all. What it's called doesn't matter.) of which I sent sample cases to goodsteel. The standard 8x57 is in the middle and the '06 on the right. Shortened RCBS '06 die is also shown which was used to form the case.

My plan is to have goodsteel barrel a M98 with a 26" barrel having a 14 or possibly a 16" twist barrel for use with 150 - 180 gr cast at 2600 - 2700 fps for hunting.

Larry Gibson

82902

[btroj]

Come on Gear, get some cases made and shoot the darn thing!

[357maximum]

Larry----love the twist path you are taking...attaboy.

Enough H-hybrid100V, H414, H4350 to get a BadgerEdd copper enhanced alloyed 311041 up to 2600 or so should easily be just about like baby bears porridge me thinks.......just keep em of the edible parts of the deer.

[Doughty]

Isn't this getting close to a rimless .30-40 Krag case?

[357maximum]

Vic.......There truly is nothing new under the sun and many versions of this idea have been wrung to completion very successfully(.308 long neck, 30X57, 30 CB, etc are just a few of the names of basically the same) .....Larry's twist/barrel length will make his job so easy it will almost be like cheating :mrgreen: His RPM's will be super low and the barrel length will make muzzle pressure easy to control and powder choice will be damn near a no brainer = walla' one very agreeable rifle coming soon.....just add powder and an applicable alloy= TADAAA

Shouldn't everyone own at least one "easy" rifle he can grab for hunting purposes?

[HARRYMPOPE]

why not the 30 BR? its has proven track record for accuracy and quality cases are easy to come by.For a 30 cal accuracy wildcat it holds more records than any and is capable of 1/4 MOA in Nesika, Halls,Panda's ETC.....My 40x in 30 BR isn't quite this good but its .5 MOA sometimes.No matter the case design you wont be wringing out to the n'th degree in the rifles you are chambering it in.Heck just a good dimensioned chamber and throat 308 or 30-06 in a 98 or Savage would be fine.

jmho

[geargnasher]

Vic.......There truly is nothing new under the sun and many versions of this idea have been wrung to completion very successfully(.308 long neck, 30X57, 30 CB, etc are just a few of the names of basically the same) .....Larry's twist/barrel length will make his job so easy it will almost be like cheating :mrgreen: His RPM's will be super low and the barrel length will make muzzle pressure easy to control and powder choice will be damn near a no brainer = walla' one very agreeable rifle coming soon.....just add powder and an applicable alloy= TADAAA

Shouldn't everyone own at least one "easy" rifle he can grab for hunting purposes?

Mike, you may be disappointed to learn that ".30 XCB" won out over ".308 Amigo" in a long discussion thread elsewhere :razz:

I wanted to call it the .30 Cast Boolit Special" but too many complained about the liberal network acronym. .30x57 is old news indeed, but nobody did it quite right as far as I know. We aim to fix that. You know, sometimes all a person wants is to open a can and start eating.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Several reasons we chose to make it this way, as mentioned the .30 XCB is a natural for any of the X57 Mauser actions, easy to find parent brass, easy to make dies if you own a bench grinder, it is intended to operate around or below 40K psi, etc. The .30 BR is no doubt a superb cartridge, but high pressure, small powder capacity, and the general shape is more suited to jaxketed than cast. The .30 XCB is more of an "everyman's" cast boolit cartridge.

Gear

[357maximum]

Ian...exactly what I meant.....just like that "popular" girl in highschool......a gun that is just "easy" is a good thing to have around.

308 Amigo lacks "zing" I think you chose to name your baby well actually. The 308X53, 308X57 , 35X57 and the 35X60 have been done very efficiently as well as "correctly" by some in less publisized circles.

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

Is there a problem with "easy"? Why would I spend the money for a new barrel and not get what I want? Why put a 10" twist on it just to have all the problems and frustrations trying for 2600 - 2700 fps as with an ordinary '06 with a 10" twist? If I'm spending the money why would I want to do "hard"?

Gear's 12" twist makes a lot of sense also as he went with what he had and the 12" twist barrel, that cartridge (what ever the name is doesn't really matter) with slower powders (that case has the capacity, the 30 BR does not) should do well with several cast bullets in the 2200 - 2400 fps range (a 311466 or the LBT 150 for example). That case design was chosen because we could use standard available '06 reamers and dies w/o having to purchase custom made ones for many of the other cartridges. That kept the cost down a lot, which was a large part of the idea. The rest of the idea was to have a cast bullet friendly case that was easy and simple to form that also had sufficient case capacity for close to 100% load density with the slower burning powders to drive .30 cal cast bullets to HV. If built on an action of sufficient length if it doesn't work you can always ream the chamber deeper for more capacity all the way to a standard '06 chamber and still use the same dies.

Yes "easy" was the general idea; easy to afford, easy to build, easy, to get affordable reloading dies, easy to form cases from available and affordable cases, easy to shoot and easy to get the desired cast bullet performance from. Yes, "easy" was the idea.........what I don't understand, as enumerated in this thread and the other one you mention me and this cartridge in, what the apparent problem is you have with "easy"?

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Larry....no conflict here STOP looking for it.......easy is good......there is damn good reason several of my toys carry 14 and 16 twisters. You are going to enjoy your easy button........I DO

[geargnasher]

I actually bought the barrel with this in mind, but knowing Tim was a long way off from being able go build it, I played with the .308 a bit instead as a sort of learning experience. I changed the throat twice to see what effect it had on different boolit designs before turning the whole mess over to Tim to fix up for this little experiment.

The real gem of this cartridge hasn't been discussed yet, although I mentioned it in the OP.....

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Another of it's many virtues is that it should feed perfectly in an action designed for 8mm Mauser, like the 98 mauser/variants.
This is not a new idea, and there are many good reasons for it. I had actually been debating making a 35 caliber variant of this very thing long before this came to light. In fact, while I was waiting on the reamer to come in, I ran across two other people who were pondering the same thing! I invited them to get a piece of the action, but nothing has come of it. This cartridge just makes sense on so many levels. It's just a nice handy way to get a long necked 7.62 X 57 Mauser, and get a decent throat in there (I find the SAAMI specs on the 8mm Mauser throat to be a little repulsive). How many times has powder selection been hamstrung by the small case capacity of the 308 Winchester case? How many times have you found yourself having to use fillers etc, for the copious, cordite inspired, case volume of the 06 chambering? What about getting trapped with the 8mm Mauser between it's short neck, and looooooong throat?
Ha! In one fell swoop, we proud booliteers have corrected all of these problems!
Why the heck is no one dumping gatorade on us from a castboolits cooler?!?!

[357maximum]

This is not a new idea, and there are many good reasons for it. Why the heck is no one dumping gatorade on us from a castboolits cooler?!?!


Methinks ye' has answered your own question. :mrgreen:

[MBTcustom]

Methinks ye' has answered your own question. :mrgreen:

LOL! Yeah I guess you're right!

So Ian, have you blown the oil out of that barrel yet, or are you still admiring it with love and adoration? LOL!

[Sweetpea]

I had actually been debating making a 35 caliber variant of this very thing long before this came to light.

This here intrigues me...

Will keep an eye on it...


G
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[geargnasher]

Ya, Tim, been working on it all day, the brass is turning out to be a real PITA without the correct neck reamer. I don't have the proper tools or pilots for something that's made the way it ought to be, for once. Any way I slice it, there's about .002 to .0025" that has to come out of the neck base from the inside, it will not expand out (similar to the issue with making .308-class cases from '06 or .270 Win.), so they will have to be reamed. The .308" Forster reamer is really 5/15", bummer. Guess I'll get a .307" chucking reamer to clean them up.

Gear

[Bzcraig]

I just wished there was a pictorial journal of the entire process for those of us who are interested but don't have a clue how you all do what you do. I really enjoy watching someone work with tools they know intimately and what is created by the experienced hands using them. I will follow this closely.

[geargnasher]

This is a sort of documentation thread, what would you like to see, BZCraig?

I shipped a barreled Savage 110 action to Tim, he might be able to tell in 1000 words or less his process of checking the barrel, chasing threads back, inventing a new process and building original tooling for insuring against all odds, flex, and gravity that the reamer will enter the bore exactly true (this includes truing the original, off-center chamber with a boring bar so it didn't track the new reamer crooked the same way), truing the action face, milling a brand-new recoil lug, polishing some small parts and hot-bluing them, and finally trimming the barrel tenon and headspacing this first build to a repeatable standard.

What I've done is take an RCBS .30-'06 FL sizing die and ground exactly .254" off of it (making sure it was square), honed the neck from .327" to .335" (painter's tape, strips of sandpaper, a 1/4" drill, and high-speed drill press, and lots of patience), and formed some cases with it. A tip, FL size in a regular '06 die first, then reform in the .30 XCB die, that way it isn't necessary to put a big radius on the inside edge of the die to prevent shaving brass from the case head. Now saw off the necks (chopsaw), expand, ream, debur, outside-turn and trim to length in one shot with a Forster bench too, debur the mouth again, resize again, expand/bellmouth with RCBS tool, load, and shoot.

Runfiverun's rifle is going to be a real Doozy, can't wait to see how that one turns out, hopefully Tim will post a full documentary of the build when the release date comes.....

Since mine is a plain-Jane, I'm trying to focus on making it shoot, and to demonstrate the potential of not only a properly designed cast-boolit cartridge, but also how a true precision-built action simplifies the quest for accuracy. Tim understands the necessary precision, and how to achieve it. I intend to showcase his efforts. No more indexing cartridges, no more fighting chamber sloppiness, excessive headspace, out-of-square bolt faces, or dealing with a wongo barrels. Not that lousy rifles can't be made to shoot, most of them certainly can, but certain things being right sure does make it easier.

Gear

[Love Life]

I'll be watching this closely. At this time I have not felt the need to shoot cast rifle bullets, as I don't believe in taking a step back from accuracy/range just to save some money.

This, though has me intrigued. What accuracy are ya'll shooting for here? 1 moa at 100 yds? Sub MOA at 100 with that (sub moa accuracy) being carried to long range (500 yds and beyond)?

What is the end goal here. I have this thread and have seen that accuracy and speed without exceeding the RPM threshold were huge considerations. Along with the long neck as well.

Where is this round going? What is the end goal for it? Do ya'll have the end planned? Are ya'll pursuing TRUE jacketed performance from cast bullets?

I hope all of that makes sense, and I am in no way trying to discredit the cartridge or idea. Just wondering what ya'll are working towards.

[L1A1Rocker]

Ya, Tim, been working on it all day, the brass is turning out to be a real PITA without the correct neck reamer. I don't have the proper tools or pilots for something that's made the way it ought to be, for once. Any way I slice it, there's about .002 to .0025" that has to come out of the neck base from the inside, it will not expand out (similar to the issue with making .308-class cases from '06 or .270 Win.), so they will have to be reamed. The .308" Forster reamer is really 5/15", bummer. Guess I'll get a .307" chucking reamer to clean them up.

Gear

I'm not sure if I've got a small enough boring bar but IF I do, would you like to try your luck on my lathe?

[MBTcustom]

I'll be watching this closely. At this time I have not felt the need to shoot cast rifle bullets, as I don't believe in taking a step back from accuracy/range just to save some money.

This, though has me intrigued. What accuracy are ya'll shooting for here? 1 moa at 100 yds? Sub MOA at 100 with that (sub moa accuracy) being carried to long range (500 yds and beyond)?

What is the end goal here. I have this thread and have seen that accuracy and speed without exceeding the RPM threshold were huge considerations. Along with the long neck as well.

Where is this round going? What is the end goal for it? Do ya'll have the end planned? Are ya'll pursuing TRUE jacketed performance from cast bullets?

I hope all of that makes sense, and I am in no way trying to discredit the cartridge or idea. Just wondering what ya'll are working towards.

XCB stands for eXtreme Cast Boolit. That's what its about. The problem is that there is no modern, bottle necked rifle/cartridge that any of us has ever laid hands on, that has been designed specifically for cast lead boolits, and therefore, all the available offerings have built in handicaps.
This project is a grand experiment with several objectives:
1. Provide a solid platform for which to run experiments on cast lead boolits unhindered by lousey factory dimensions/tolerances.
2. Provide a cartridge that has an efficient case capacity, and caliber, that corrects many problems and updates antiquated designs into something more suited to cast lead boolit performance.
3. Provide a wildcat cartridge to the cast booliteers of the world that is easy to get, cheap to shoot, and effective for our sport.
4. Provide an energy dump for our incessant need to experiment and learn LOL!

[btroj]

I have a feeling this is going to be a very easy case to load for. Making cases is going to be the bigger issue, as Gear has found out. Good thing is that those cases should last a very long time.

I suppose I ought to get a round to buying a trigger and sending it to Tim.......

[MBTcustom]

I made up a bunch of cases for it out of 270 winchester brass, and I didn't have any trouble whatsoever, outside of the normal joys of getting the forster case neck turner to cut the right size (I swear that's like trying to sign your name with a pen duct taped on the bumper of a 69 cuda).
Anyway, all I did was trim the neck almost off the 270, deburr, FL size twice, trim to length with a .307 pilot, then neck turn. I drove the Forster with a dewalt drill, and it was pretty easy.

[Love Life]

XCB stands for eXtreme Cast Boolit. That's what its about. The problem is that there is no modern, bottle necked rifle/cartridge that any of us has ever laid hands on, that has been designed specifically for cast lead boolits, and therefore, all the available offerings have built in handicaps.
This project is a grand experiment with several objectives:
1. Provide a solid platform for which to run experiments on cast lead boolits unhindered by lousey factory dimensions/tolerances.
2. Provide a cartridge that has an efficient case capacity, and caliber, that corrects many problems and updates antiquated designs into something more suited to cast lead boolit performance.
3. Provide a wildcat cartridge to the cast booliteers of the world that is easy to get, cheap to shoot, and effective for our sport.
4. Provide an energy dump for our incessant need to experiment and learn LOL!

I like it!! I'll definately keep an eye on this thread as the cartridge is very interesting and what has been written so far has me excited.

Hopefully by the time I get finished sending you boxes of parts to make me jacketed bullet shooters, this experiment will be well developed and it'll be time to have one of these made.

[felix]

This article is excellent, and will help with the idea that more capacity is needed for our cast endeavors using contemporary heavy boolits such as a 31x299 or 31x284. ... felix

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/30br/

Pay particular attention to the addage that a velocity circa a delta of 300s is desired when finding a particular center between nodes. Such as 1800, 2100, 2400, 2700 fps. Select various powders (lots, actually) that deliver one these velocities as closely as possible, and vary the primer for honing. ... felix

[cbrick]

I drove the Forster with a dewalt drill, and it was pretty easy.

Except now you've seen a better, faster & more versatile Forster trimmer. :coffeecom

Rick

[cbrick]

Ya, Tim, been working on it all day, the brass is turning out to be a real PITA without the correct neck reamer. I don't have the proper tools or pilots for something that's made the way it ought to be, for once. Any way I slice it, there's about .002 to .0025" that has to come out of the neck base from the inside, it will not expand out (similar to the issue with making .308-class cases from '06 or .270 Win.), so they will have to be reamed. The .308" Forster reamer is really 5/15", bummer. Guess I'll get a .307" chucking reamer to clean them up. Gear

Ian, what Forster inside neck reamer diameter are you looking for? I have several including some that I had Forster special grind for me several years back. If I have the one your looking for I would be happy to loan it out.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Many thanks Rick and Jim, I'll have to see what I need exactly, things go to hell when you knock a shoulder back this far. Principally I need a .307" chucking reamer to remove the donut, then I can expand to any size I need for the turning mandrel. I'm thinking a .308" turning mandrel will do fine for turning, I just can't get rid of the donut via expanding.

Something else that's a pain is the way the un-annealed brass behaves. I honed the neck of my FL die out so when forming, the neck OD is .334". If I expand it to .308" at the front 2/3 (donut still is about .304" ID or so down at the inside of the neck base) and then resize it, the neck OD is consistently .3355-.336". Just barely tight enough. IOW, the necks spring back more after being expanded and resized than during initial forming. Hopefully things will sort themselves out when I get the reaming done.

Gear

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . Trying to translate, chucking reamer? Are you saying the inside neck reamer and you need one in .307"? Does Turning mandrel mean the pilot in .308"? English anyone?

Just brought the box & the mic in from the shop to see what I have, it's been several years since I've messed with inside neck reaming so I wasn't sure. I do have a standard Forster .308" pilot but it mic's at .30585". I have a standard Forster inside neck reamer and it measures .3110". The custom ground reamers I have are in 7mm & 22 cal so no help there.

Perhaps this page will be of some help.

Forster Inside Neck Reamers (http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=26888&catid=19938)

They were always great with turn around times for me so maybe a phone call will solve the problem. Be sure of the diameter you need, they were very good at sending me exactly what I asked for whether it was what I needed or not. :mrgreen:

Rick

[geargnasher]

Yes, Rick that was some help, unlike what's stocked in the megawarehouses, or rather NOT stocked. I have the ".308" Forster neck reamer, it's actually .3115", which is useless for this cartridge. None of my neck turning pilots (I call them mandrels) are the right size, so I will need one, probably .308" diameter. A "chucking reamer" is a plain, straight-flute reamer for finishing holes in metal, available in just about any size imaginable for delicate and precise hole reaming, handy for things like revolver cylinder throats and removing those pesky forming donuts from cartridge brass, at ANY point in the sizing process. I power mine with a vertical plunge mill, aka drill press! I didn't realize Forster made so many useful sizes and custom grinding services, good to know.

Gear

[Bzcraig]

This is a sort of documentation thread, what would you like to see, BZCraig? Gear

Not really sure cause this goes above my head in many instances but like many I'm a visual guy. Maybe it's not so much pics I want to see as it is drawings detailing the before and after of Tim's work the old/new cases, boolit designs and the like. And if any of you is working without drawings..... I bow to you but challenge you as well to get the drawings so it can be duplicated. Thanks for asking Gear.

[45 2.1]

Here is what the "new" cartridge looks like in reference to some rather old common numbers we known what happens in. I want to see results from all the rifles done by goodsteel to see what is hype and what isn't.

[MBTcustom]

Here is what the "new" cartridge looks like in reference to some rather old common numbers we known what happens in. I want to see results from all the rifles done by goodsteel to see what is hype and what isn't.

Oh its all just hype. BS of the highest order.
But the barrels are straight, the chambers are tight, and it's going to be real fun squirting a bucket of WW metal and a few pounds of burning powder down the pipes.
Personally, I'm hoping to keep them all on a pie plate at 100 yards, and get up to at least 1500 fps. It's an exciting time.

[felix]

HP, 2100 fps would be mighty fine with a 180 grainer! That is where barrel time is quick enough for a non-BR gun (and shooter) to get tighter groups with the range close enough not to require BR doping ability to be completely satisfied. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Here is what the "new" cartridge looks like in reference to some rather old common numbers we known what happens in. I want to see results from all the rifles done by goodsteel to see what is hype and what isn't.

Oh its all just hype. BS of the highest order.
But the barrels are straight, the chambers are tight, and it's going to be real fun squirting a bucket of WW metal and a few pounds of burning powder down the pipes.
Personally, I'm hoping to keep them all on a pie plate at 100 yards, and get up to at least 1500 fps. It's an exciting time.

You really didn't understand what that meant.............. Considering you chambered several barrels, with different specs and twists, all the same.... We should see what some differences are. How about posting each fellows barrel twist and length that you furnished? Should keep some doubt from the results. From the above, did you make one for yourself.......... 2300 fps or a little above should be possible at surplus slow pressures with heavier boolits.

[MBTcustom]

You really didn't understand what that meant.............. Considering you chambered several barrels, with different specs and twists, all the same.... We should see what some differences are. How about posting each fellows barrel twist and length that you furnished? Should keep some doubt from the results. From the above, did you make one for yourself.......... 2300 fps or a little above should be possible at surplus slow pressures with heavier boolits.

Each rifle will be built for each client, one at a time. This was just the first of four. The next two are going to be much fancier than Ians and will take some time to complete, but I'm sure similar threads will be forthcoming.
I intend to build myself a similar rifle. Believe it or not, my personal projects operate on a shoestring budget. I have a barrel that I think is going to work, but I'll have to get it in the lathe before I make that decision final. I would much rather buy a barrel of known quality. Also, I'm struggling with the decision of how deep to ream the barrel. I could go with this caliber, or I could do a standard 30-06 with the same reamer. Decisions decisions......
I think the 30-06 with a 24" 10 twist would be interesting.

[btroj]

You really didn't understand what that meant.............. Considering you chambered several barrels, with different specs and twists, all the same.... We should see what some differences are. How about posting each fellows barrel twist and length that you furnished? Should keep some doubt from the results. From the above, did you make one for yourself.......... 2300 fps or a little above should be possible at surplus slow pressures with heavier boolits.

My barrel is a Palma taper Krieger. One in 12 twist, should finish to 30 inches or so. It will go on a Savage action and be put in a BR type laminate stock. It will be heavy and that is fine with me. It will never see use in the filed, I wanted a pure target type rifle.

I figure it will be easy enough to get 2400 fps and should be able to exceed that with good accuracy duet o barrel length. I see 4350 getting used initially for a powder with a 165 to 180 gr bullet.

I would have preferred a 14 twist but Krieger had a 12 in stock, that was hard to pass up.

[btroj]

The different barrel specs will be a big variable. The other big variable will be the bullet used.

I haven't even decided what I want to use but it will likely be similar to the RCBS 165 Sil but with a taper from nose to body diameter.

[geargnasher]

Bob, mine is a heavy varmint taper, 24", six-groove, 12 twist, .3076"X.300", that started life as a drop-in .308 Winchester with a Palma chamber and throat. The reamer we're using for the 30 XCB has a standard, SAAMI '06 throat with no freebore, throat entrance right on the money at .3106". For first trials, it's going in the factory Mattel stock with no bedding work. That will be improved later.

Gear

[MarkP]

8334783348
Many thanks Rick and Jim, I'll have to see what I need exactly, things go to hell when you knock a shoulder back this far. Principally I need a .307" chucking reamer to remove the donut, then I can expand to any size I need for the turning mandrel. I'm thinking a .308" turning mandrel will do fine for turning, I just can't get rid of the donut via expanding.

Something else that's a pain is the way the un-annealed brass behaves. I honed the neck of my FL die out so when forming, the neck OD is .334". If I expand it to .308" at the front 2/3 (donut still is about .304" ID or so down at the inside of the neck base) and then resize it, the neck OD is consistently .3355-.336". Just barely tight enough. IOW, the necks spring back more after being expanded and resized than during initial forming. Hopefully things will sort themselves out when I get the reaming done.

Gear

The easiest most accurate method I have found is to remove the expander ball when pushing the shoulder back and ream with a chucking reamer, (I perfer a spiral flutted reamer) McMaster Carr has them for $24 +/- a few $'s in diameter increments of 0.0005". By removing the expanderball the neck OD remains nearly constant, and the "doughnut" can be removed with the reamer. With my 416 wildcat (9/16" long neck made from 300 WSM) I keep the cartridge contained within the from die while reaming the neck. The necks had a tendency to expand while reaming thererfore keeping them contained helped maintain uniform wall thickness. (for forming 350 Rem Mag from 7 mm & 221 Fireballs from 222 & 223 I don not contain the necks while reaming) I also use pin gauges rather than ID mics when determining reamer diameters. The method above will result in a reamer smaller than boolit diameter will depend on size die dimensions. The pictures below are drawings of final draw tooling for a 350 Rem Mag & 264 Win Mag /7 mm Rem Mag cartridge cases. This will give you an idea of what you are dealing with, tapered walls in which wall thickness is greater near the neck shoulder junction.

I have not looked into this; but I am guessing the 300 Blackout chamber neck was designed with this in mind as compared to the 300 Whisper. Since the 300 Blackout is made from 223's and the 300 Whisper from 221's. May want to consider this with a 30 XCB reamer design as neck reaming is time consuming.

[geargnasher]

Mark, thank you. I think you're right about the spiral-flute reamer, it would solve a lot of guidance problems.

The problem with altering the chamber reamer is that brass is so inconsistent in thickness where we're working it, and there's some residual shoulder/neck junction to contend with in the new neck. They really need to be reamed unless they are pretty severely annealed, including the new shoulder area so an expander spud can squeeze the donut to the outside and iron-out the imperfections on the neck's interior.

Gear

[Love Life]

Did you ever get the brass issue sorted out, Gear?

[runfiverun]

I dunno about gear's brass issue being fixed as I just caught up on the thread.
the parallel neck walls should make the thickness issue pretty simple.
the neck size of the chamber allows off the shelf [or ground] brass to be right near the correct thickness either .012 or .013 brass can be used and provide plenty of clearance for boolit release without having boolits overly large to begin with.
I plan on using boolits in the .310 area and squeezing down 8 mauser brass giving me the correct length [after trimming] and enough case thickness to just be able to clean things up giving me even neck thickness to work with.
the rejects from case sorting will work well enough in my 8mm model 700.

I don't have a lot of specifics on my rifle.
it's a mauser 98 action of some sort with a trigger hanging out the bottom.
the stock is [shrug] wood.
the barrel is round from one end to the other, and it looked straight when I held it up to the light [the maker is unknown]

my goal is velocity in the 25-2600 area with whatever accuracy I get, and smooth feeding.
the rifle might be half tactical-half classic Africa hunter with neon zebra striped paint on it for all I know.
which would be fine with me cause the thing is gonna see some 120 or so grain home swaged varmint bullets as well as lot's of naked 166.5 gr cast boolits.
heck I have been eyeballing some newer nightforce scopes recently, they might look good in tip-off claw mounts above some express sights on a raised quarter rib made from anodized aluminum to match the anodized aluminum butt plate. [littlegirl said purple not pink]

[btroj]

Oooohhhh, a purple butt plate with the zebra stock is gonna be sick! The purple quarter rib would look much better with a polished barrel, not blued.

I sent Tim a few bells and whistles I found around the house, I think they are being incorporated into your rifle.

He got my stock, I was told it looks like a rainbow colored 4 x 4 with a pistol grip. Exactly what I was after!

I think the 8 x 57 brass would make case forming far easier. I made a few test cases, it sucked! Neck turning .002 is easy, turning off .005 or more is not. I had a heck of a time just getting the cases to turn on the mandrel for my turner. Annealing made it better but it was still a sore hand kind of thing. I am not interested in 10 minutes per case.

Run, any idea how much shorter the neck will be than the chamber allows? I doubt it will matter with the way everything else lines up. Long as we don't use a fast powder that swages the bullet into that little gap all should be good.

[Love Life]

Oooh. Go tactical. Nothing screams utility like a 14 lb beast with a 26 inch long barrel.

As long as the chamber is on the right end I'd be happy!!

Btroj-Did you want a couple 8X57 cases to try? I have some made from 30-06 brass and I have some factory remington brass. How do you think the coated bullets would do in this cartridge? I have a new build in mind, and this cartridge keeps sliming it's way into the picture.

[btroj]

I have access to lots of x 57 cases, father in law has both a 7 and 8 x 57 and lives in town.

I think coated bullets will be tested in mine. Having a well made rifle will give a better test bed because more variables are removed. I will need to get a baseline with "normal" lube first then try coatings.

Hopefully I will have a rifle next spring and can get going then.

[Love Life]

I
Hopefully I will have a rifle next spring and can get going then.

You better get on the ball!! I'm gathering anouther box-o-parts to send to Tim.

[btroj]

My box of parts is already AT Tim's. Well, all except a trigger. He got my 4 x 4 stock last week. Barrel and action are there already. Just need to send a trigger.

I have high hopes for this set up. Should be plenty accurate enough to help with learning about lubes and coatings.

Speaking of coatings, how clean are they?

[Love Life]

They are quite clean.

I may have missed it somewhere, but is this a long or short action cartridge?

[btroj]

I used a long action. It MAY fit in as short action but a long action will be better, allows use of longer rounds with certainty of being able to eject a loaded round.

I used a Savage 112 that was a 22-250. I have almost as much int he barrel as I did that entire rifle! Scope is going to be worth more than the sum of the other parts. Leupould VX3 long range target 8.5 x 24, 30 mm tube. Nice scope.

[Love Life]

Krieger+Leupold=more than most factory rifles total costs.

I need to find an abused long action somewhere. Seems any action sold these days is $1,000,000,000. Funny thing is Cabelas has WHOLE Remington 700 rifles for sale cheaper than just a Remington 700 receiver from Brownells. Odd that one.

[btroj]

That is what I was thinking, find a beater Rem 700 at a pawn shop. Get it for 250 to 300 bucks and use the receiver.
I know where I could get a Rem 700 for free but my FIL might frown on it.

[RoyEllis]

Well crapola, you guys got me wondering what this new-ish cartridge would do in a Garand/M1A type platform so I guess maybe Tim's gonna get to raid my piggy bank!:bigsmyl2: More exciting than a mail-order bride & alot cheaper to boot!!!

[Love Life]

That's what this site'll do to you. You come in hoping to save money by learning to cast your own bullets, and you leave wondering what happened to all of your folding money!!

So to set up for this cartridge I would need:
Action
Barrel
30-06 dies cut down
Either 30-06 or 270 brass to cut down

Hmmm. I wonder what this'll do if I stuffed a 175 SMK in it. Be easer to get enough stank behind it to carry it to 1,000 and beyond without that nagging issue of cratered primers I get from the 308...

[btroj]

I am leaning towards sizing down 8x57 cases instead of using 270 or '06 brass. Forming will be simpler and the neck will need far less turning. Neck will be a tiny bit short but I can live with that.

[MBTcustom]

That's what this site'll do to you. You come in hoping to save money by learning to cast your own bullets, and you leave wondering what happened to all of your folding money!!

So to set up for this cartridge I would need:
Action
Barrel
30-06 dies cut down
Either 30-06 or 270 brass to cut down

Hmmm. I wonder what this'll do if I stuffed a 175 SMK in it. Be easer to get enough stank behind it to carry it to 1,000 and beyond without that nagging issue of cratered primers I get from the 308...

If you're going to be shooting the SMK's, why not have me ream it to full 30-06 depth? Jacketed bullets puts you in a whole new speed bracket, and it would be a horible sin to shoot a jacketed bullet in this cartridge. It's like dating your sister: it just isn't done! LOL!

[Sweetpea]

If you're going to be shooting the SMK's, why not have me ream it to full 30-06 depth? Jacketed bullets puts you in a whole new speed bracket, and it would be a horible sin to shoot a jacketed bullet in this cartridge. It's like dating your sister: it just isn't done! LOL!

Agree, and if you're going for speed and distance, you might as well go with an Ackley, Gibbs, or whatever your flavor of improvement...

[runfiverun]

this cartridge will fling copper just fine.
the heavier 175's would limit velocity somewhat but the case will have a click more case capacity than the 308 and it's longer which helps cushion the primer brisance making a bit hotter primer work well with stick powders such as rl-19.

it will also fit in a short action.
you just need the throat adjusted [actually no you don't really] but it will feed and fit in a short action.
Remington built their 6x57 cartridge on a short action, and ruger and win both built their 25x57 round on short actions.
anyway the round won't be held to the 45-k a mauser round is, it and the brass will handle the same pressure as a 270 or 308 win will, as long as the rifle is up to it.
the 7 mauser is a whole different animal when stoked to 55k, this round will be capable of that pressure also.

changing the case to an Ackley improved will gain you another few grains of case capacity [5-6 sounds about right].
my 7 icl Ackley has gone up to 55 grs of powder [real close to the 280 Remington] under a 140 gr bullet with no pressure signs and is stupid fast for a case this size. [52 gives me a velocity of 2875 at 10 feet with a rem 9-1/2 primer]
the wifes standard uses 51 in 257+p [reduced capacity] brass for a velocity of 2750 with the same bullet using a federal 210 primer.

[Larry Gibson]

Going to any "improved" cartridge negates several of the initial benefits; A custom reamer would be needed (while goodsteel had a custom reamer made it was not really necessary as a "tight neck '06 match reamer, which is rentable, would also have done nicely), a custom set of loading dies would have been needed and the "improved" cartridges do not readily feed reliably from Mauser actions (M98s in particular).

Shooting jacketed is always an option and given an appropriate barrel length it will do well to 1000 yards if not 1200 yards. Granted in a 28"+ barrel with a 14" twist the standard '06 chambering would be better for longer ranges out to 1400+ yards. However, my idea with the 14 or more probably the 16" twist in a heavy sporter 26" barrel on the M98 action is to shoot a 150 - 160 gr cast at 2700 - 2800 fps for deer/antelope/coyote hunting.

Larry Gibson

[Love Life]

Yep. I like the idea behind this cartridge. To me it seems it would be a "just enough" cartridge for my type of shooting. I can put some more stank behind the 175 SMK with out the unneccessary case capacity or recoil (not a recoil wimp, but why have it if not needed) of the 30-06 class of cartridges.

I don't hunt anymore so guns I get nowadays are for fun, varminting, and pinging steel.

I do happen to have a stock, bottom metal, and stuff for a SA hanging around waiting to answer a question that hasn't been asked yet.

[geargnasher]

OK, 82 posts later I'm actually going to try to shoot this thing today. Got the Long Range Precision Sighting System (as it's apparently being called now) installed and dialed-in to minute-of-switch-plate-screw on my loading room wall (I guess I need one of those Long Range Precision Tactical Boresighters). Spent all morning making ten cases. Now to extrapolate some load data, size some boolits, and see if she goes BANG!

Gear

[btroj]

Dang, all morning to make 10 cases!

Yeah, I will be ordering some 8x57 brass........

[Larry Gibson]

All morning to make 10 cases? All I can say is "wow"! I'm at a loss why it is so difficult?

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Larry, I made a few trial cases from 270 brass. It was a bunch of work. Push shoulder back, trim to length, anneal, turn, chamfer and deburr.
If I didn't anneal it was almost impossible to turn the necks. Even after annealing ot was tough turning. Removing that amount of material is a bear, I ended up with pretty sore hands from it.

I think the neck turning is the hardest part. The other stuff is pretty simple and easy.

Using 8x57 cases to begin with would make the job far easier, much less material needs turning off. I don't think neck turners are designed to remove much over .002 at a time, or at least I'm not!

[geargnasher]

Resize in '06 die minus decapping rod.
FL size in .30 XCB die.
Trim to ~2.255" with chop saw.
Rough deburr inside and out.
Expand w/RCBS .309" M spud
Ream doughnut with .308" reamer.
Polish inside of neck w/320 sand paper.
Trim to 2.244" (for starters).
Outside turn to .0130" thickness.
VLD chamfer and deburr.
FL size.
Expand and bell .001" with RCBS M spud.
Decap.
Clean primer pockets.

All that took about 45 minutes for ten cases, but I have all told about 35 hours in setting up, making tools, modifying tools, trying different things, ruining about 40 cases, etc. I really wish the proper tools for this job were available, but the more I study the reloading tools available for match case prep, the more disgusted I become. Don't get me started on loading dies!

I still need a better expander setup, the RCBS is fine but I have a lot of trouble with it bending necks. what I need is a sliding-sleeve arrangement to force the case straight in alignment with the spud. Once that's done, you don't necessarily have to have a sliding-sleeve seating system to seat the boolits straight, the case neck does it for you. Provided you haven't annealed them to death. I may pick up a Lyman 31R M die and turn down the step on the spud a bit and bush the bottom of the hole to .468", or pack it full of epoxy putty and run a fireformed case up into it.

Anyway, I managed to cobble together ten rounds and get them fired in between rain squalls, so far it looks to be doing what it's supposed to. What I really need is a whole day at the 100-yard public range with my chronograph, about half a dozen powders, couple hundred boolits, and my hand press. That could have been yesterday if I'd been able to get this (*^&^%&^$%@#$ing brass made in time. Oh well.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Larry, I made a few trial cases from 270 brass. It was a bunch of work. Push shoulder back, trim to length, anneal, turn, chamfer and deburr.
If I didn't anneal it was almost impossible to turn the necks. Even after annealing ot was tough turning. Removing that amount of material is a bear, I ended up with pretty sore hands from it.

I think the neck turning is the hardest part. The other stuff is pretty simple and easy.

Using 8x57 cases to begin with would make the job far easier, much less material needs turning off. I don't think neck turners are designed to remove much over .002 at a time, or at least I'm not!

.270 brass is thicker in the shoulder for some reason than commercial '06, I use it to make 7mm-08 with thicker necks because I can get the .0165" that most rifles require. '06 pushed back the same amount only gives about .015" reliably after turning. I'm only turning off about .0015" or so on these, most of that near the shoulder. They do clean up nicely, though.

One thing that IS quite nice is having enough metal to work with, both thickness-wise and lengthwise. This thing has a LONG neck if you use all of the chamber. My .30Sil boolits only use half the neck, and I'm beginning to think that a longer-bodied boolit might be better for this cartridge. I'm running right around .0005" total neck clearance at the high spots (driving bands) and a little less at the throat entrance, about .0003" there with .3104" boolits. A controlled interference fit would be no problemo to achieve.

Gear

[btroj]

Come on man, targets! How did they shoot?

I hate to ask but what lube? I am betting on Felix.

[geargnasher]

Yup, Felix lube. Original formula. It was 66 degrees.

Put the first three in about .200" at 25 yards to check the optics and the rest out at a whopping 50 for a half-inch aggregate between two aiming pasties. There is a distinct diagonal string like a "backslash" to the groups. This is with 14.2 grains of Unique and 338Remingtonultramag's aluminum gas checks (they fit the .2875" gas check shank without shaving lead like Hornady checks do (thanks for the oversight, there, BOB and MIHA). I'll be stepping up to real powder next, but my neighbors call the law every time I touch off full-power stuff so it will have to wait until I can get to the public range or build one of those cool non-portable "sound attenuators" like Larry built out of tires and plywood. The supersonic crack isn't the big deal, it's the boom from the muzzle that gets these city-slickers in their trailer houses all freaked out. I've been shooting whatever I wanted here since I was a kid and use a high hill for a backstop (plus sand-filled boolit traps), but adjacent properties have sold and subdivided and the several new families of trash aren't used to me yet and apparently have "911" on speed dial.

Gear

[btroj]

So Tim did ok.

You need new neighbors. Maybe Lamar will consider a move.

I have a bunch of 06 brass so I will consider using them. I figure on getting a rifle in time for next summer. With winter on the way I wouldn't be doing much bench type shooting anyway, it quickly gets cold sitting in the wind.

[L1A1Rocker]

Don't get me started on loading dies!

I still need a better expander setup, the RCBS is fine but I have a lot of trouble with it bending necks. what I need is a sliding-sleeve arrangement to force the case straight in alignment with the spud. Once that's done, you don't necessarily have to have a sliding-sleeve seating system to seat the boolits straight, the case neck does it for you. Provided you haven't annealed them to death. I may pick up a Lyman 31R M die and turn down the step on the spud a bit and bush the bottom of the hole to .468", or pack it full of epoxy putty and run a fireformed case up into it.


Put something to paper and maybe we can modify an existing die, or make one from scratch to get what you need.

[cbrick]

Even after annealing it was tough turning. Removing that amount of material is a bear, I ended up with pretty sore hands from it. I think the neck turning is the hardest part.

You need one of these. :mrgreen: I used to think it was the tough part too so I built this. Two motors, five output shafts, does everything to brass that you don't need a press for. Neck turns, inside neck reams, length trims, chamfers, deburs, inside flash hole uniforms, uniforms primer pockets. In this picture it was turning 414 Super Mag brass into 41 Mag, try that on about 300 rounds with a hand crank. :mrgreen:

Rick

84247

[btroj]

Sell me one?

That is sweet. I have a Sinclair hard powder neck turner. I am seriously considering their powder adapter for spinning the case. It certainly can't make it more difficult!

Nice looking contraption Rick.

[MBTcustom]

You need one of these. :mrgreen: I used to think it was the tough part too so I built this. Two motors, five output shafts, does everything to brass that you don't need a press for. Neck turns, inside neck reams, length trims, chamfers, deburs, inside flash hole uniforms, uniforms primer pockets. In this picture it was turning 414 Super Mag brass into 41 Mag, try that on about 300 rounds with a hand crank. :mrgreen:

Rick

84247

I saw that little doo dad up yonder, and I think I'm going to make one. Gives a lot of control so you're not pitching or yawing your brass while neck turning.

[btroj]

Looks like a powered Forster?

[cbrick]

Looks like a powered Forster?

Yep, it is. I got so sick of that little hand crank I built that & threw the hand crank away & never looked back.

Rick

[Love Life]

CBRick-I have cash in hand if you'd make another one of those with the assorted accoutrement.

[btroj]

CBRick-I have cash in hand if you'd make another one of those with the assorted accoutrement.

Ditto. That is one sweet device.

I just don't have the skill set to build such a thing.

[Love Life]

I tried to build one using pulleys and belts. It has been an activity rife with aggravation.

I wanted to build one like cbricks' but it just isn't working. Maybe if I used long range precision pulleys...

Seriously cbrick, if you ever decide to build another please let me know.

[Love Life]

OK, 82 posts later I'm actually going to try to shoot this thing today. Got the Long Range Precision Sighting System (as it's apparently being called now) installed and dialed-in to minute-of-switch-plate-screw on my loading room wall (I guess I need one of those Long Range Precision Tactical Boresighters). Spent all morning making ten cases. Now to extrapolate some load data, size some boolits, and see if she goes BANG!

Gear

The best LRP tool to use to ensure your LRP sighting instrument is good to go is a string and a weight. Kind of like one of them old fashioned plumb bobs....

[geargnasher]

I'm thinking of just getting a mini-lathe. For a case holder, a three-jaw stepped chuck similar to the Forster collet but with an inertial tightening ring like the clamp on a powered pipe-threading machine. Turn the case instead of the tool, much better for uniformity. I'd also make a trimmer arrangement that cut three angles at once so one could get perfect chamfers every time.

It doesn't pay to have a near-perfect chamber/bore relationship of one can't make concentric, true ammunition. I can do it with the tools I have, but it's very time-consuming.

BTW Tim, kudos to you, this rifle turned out to be exactly what it was supposed to be, it's really great to finally have SOMETHING that's right, even if I'm having to scramble to get the support equipment made to the same level of accuracy. It just amazes me how anyone gets results at all using standard dies, factory rifles, and basic loading techniques. In the future, you ought to consider a full die mod with your cast boolit builds: Use factory sizing dies but enlarge the neck portion, make a fully-supported, self-aligning expander die out of mild steel rod, and an identical one for the seater die using the chamber reamer for both. You'd only have to machine three pieces (body, sliding sleeve, and threaded plug) for each die and the bodies could be universal like the Lee universal expander die body. Just the expander and seater die would be worth quite a bit to me, and you could use 9/16x18 SAE all-thread for the plugs and regular nuts to lock them. Think about it.

Gear

[geargnasher]

The best LRP tool to use to ensure your LRP sighting instrument is good to go is a string and a weight. Kind of like one of them old fashioned plumb bobs....

I ended up using the Mk II ocular orb (left one) and a piece of paper with a dot on it together with some lead-based long-range, airborne pointing devices.

Gear

[btroj]

A regular dot or a mil-dot?

It is amazing how well the human eye can judge things once it is trained.

[cbrick]

Would be pretty tough to build another one. I don't have access to a machine shop and there are several parts such as threaded shafts turned to the proper diameter for the gear reduction that a good friend custom made for me & he's gone now. Also the box was built on a brake in his shop. When I built it about 25 years ago I lived in Los Angeles and had access to places like the one that sells the gears, chain etc., no such place around here. The pillow block bearings came from Grainger's and could be ordered. The main motor is a 1800 rpm from Grainger and geared down to 700 rpm for the main cutter shaft & chamfer/debur output shafts. The second motor that runs the flash hole uniformer is a 12v DC gear motor that runs at 60 rpm also from Grainger's & I had to build a power supply for this motor & the cooling fan & work light on top.

Would be nearly impossible for me to do that now. When I built it and saw how extremely well it worked I planned to start making them for sale but never could come up with the needed start up funds. Just getting an aluminum casting made for the main housing instead of an experimentation box was astronomical unless you ordered thousands of them. So that never happened.

Sorry guys but there could be hope, Tim stopped by here a couple of weeks ago and when he saw it he said he was going to build one.

Rick

[btroj]

Tim, please?

[Love Life]

I'm thinking one of these built today would be $500.00+, and worth every penny.

[btroj]

Rick, am I in your will?

[cbrick]

I'm thinking one of these built today would be $500.00+, and worth every penny.

25 years ago with much of the machining work free I managed to spend nearly $300.00 on it. The 3 pillow block bearings were about $50.00 each, not the best or cheapest way but in the aluminum experimenters box there was little choice. No idea how much I have in cutting tools for it, a tool holder for the Sinclair primer pocket cutter, inside neck reamers, a whole drawer of attachments.

Originally I thought I would be going through cutting tools like crazy spinning them that fast, they are after all designed for a hand crank. The Forster tools are amazing though, the cutter shaft for length trimming, the cutter for outside neck turning have lasted for years and many, many thousands of cases. Like wise the Sinclair primer pocket cutter, tens of thousands of rounds later and I'm still using them, still good as new. I uniform the primer pockets after each firing for match brass, on the machine a 100 round box is 10 minutes. :mrgreen:

Rick

[cbrick]

Rick, am I in your will?

I'm taking everything with me, all molds, lead, tools. Everything! :mrgreen:

Rick

[btroj]

I'm taking everything with me, all molds, lead, tools. Everything! :mrgreen:

Rick

Dang, it was worth a try.

A tool like that is far better than what the mass manufacturers make. That is more like a Giraud trimmer, a unique tool that works as it should.

[MBTcustom]

I'm taking everything with me, all molds, lead, tools. Everything! :mrgreen:

Rick

You just gonna have 'em give you the 'ol heave ho into a shipping container, and slam the door before you or any of your stuff falls out, then arrange to have it shoved off a barge in the pacific?
Ya gotta think big if you're taking all of your stuff with you!
:kidding:

[geargnasher]

Some upgrades:

Boyd's Tacticool stock and Weaver T-36.

Got the barrel channel sanded out nicely and the stock inletted around the barrel nut to fit the thicker recoil lug Tim made. Now to glass-bed the action and get back to shooting it!

89776
Yes, the goofy sling studs are going away!
89777

89778
.308 Winchester, .30XCB scrapped case, .30-'06 case, dummy .30XCB with a MiHec 30-sil poking out of it.

BTW, one of the targets from the last outing is shown below the rifle, there are two .300 clusters of three shots there at a chronographed 2335 FPS using IIRC 42 grains of H414 under the AM 31-185G, 50/50 WW/pure water-quenched. That was with the original Mattel stock and a Sightron 3x9. When I swapped scopes this evening I discovered that I forgot to tighten the windage screws on the rear mount after putting things back together to shoot it. I don't mean a little loose, either, I mean WAY loose. Yikes. I'm surprised it hit paper. No wonder there were some flyers.

So far I've run H4350 and H414 through it, the loads I started with all ran between ~2300-2370 fps. Now that I got some brass fireformed and a baseline established for working up loads the next range session should be much more impressive.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Well good for you Ian! I knew you'd find your wallet eventually.
:kidding:
That's puttin your aces in their places.
Do you need some pillars? I can get some headed your way if you want them. Also, 10-110 is your friend, and less is more!
Read the tutorial's that are on this website. This is basically the way I do it, and the guy understands avoiding stressing the action.
Let that baby set up with the bolts loose.
http://erniethegunsmith.com/catalog/i120.html

[tomme boy]

That stock still needs to be bedded. Are you going to do that? It made a big difference in mine. Float the rear tang and hopefully you have a tapered recoil lug. They don't like to come out if it is not. Don't bed the nut.

[tomme boy]

Oh ya, one more thing. These stocks seem to not have the bedding block square with the rest of the stock. Mine was twisted to the left.

[geargnasher]

No bedding block with this one. Yes, it's getting bedded properly, all I did was get the "stock" barrel channel opened up for that 1" pipe and stick it together for pics. I PM'd Tim earlier and we got it worked out on the phone, I just need to give him some measurements and get the proper goo to stick it together.

Those Boyd's stocks are NICE. I'm truly impressed with their inletting accuracy, overall shape, and finish. At around a hunnert bucks and all it needs is some sanding, pillars, and bedding, what's not to love?

Gear

[runfiverun]

i'm awestruck at the moment...
i can't wait to see the next ones roll out, and follow this one along.
GReeeeaAAT big 222 case :lol:
oh yeah,,, slower powders Brother, 44-45 grs of the 4831 and Rl-19 types should match that velocity and make for a more gentle launch..
RL-22 might even further things with less pressure and be a good indicator as to the pressure when it starts to clean up.
of course you'll trade launch pressure for muzzle pressure untill then.

[btroj]

Looking nice.

Makes me want mine even more now. Mine won't be tacticool, it will have a shiny silver barrel and a rainbow 4x4 stock! Maybe I can get Tim to find a place that can anodize the action purple!

Have you found a good way to make cases? Something that is reasonably blister free?

I need to order one of those moulds from Tom. I think I will slim the nose a tiny bit, my bore should be right at 300x308 so a nose staring at .299 then tapering up should work better for me. I may even start at .298 just to make sure I keep the base out of the case. Some measuring is gonna need to be done. I can always seat it shallower if I need to chase lands or anything like that.

[Larry Gibson]

gotta get a 16" twist barrel and get it to goodsteel.............

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Brad and I are working on fixing the 31-185G so it fits a little better, I'm going to put together some drawings and post them up here, stay tuned....

With the original stock and light scope the recoil was fairly stiff, not punishing, but dang sure not "yer daddy's cast boolit loads". I'm beginning to wonder if a lighter boolit, something in the 160-grain range, might be in order here. If I go much faster than 2400 fps I think a switch to slower powder is definitely in order. Once I work up the H414 a little more and see where that gets me I'll probably switch to Hybrid 100V, WW780 Supreme, or H4831. Right now, in the low 40-grain range with H414 and H4350 it looks like I have about 6-8 grains more room, so I can't go TOO much slower or I'll run out of case capacity.

A case full of Hybrid 100V ought to be just about perfect for 2600 fps with this 185-grain boolit.

Gear

[Any Cal.]

Gear, I may be able to make you some die parts if you know what you need, or can draw it. I have been learning to run a lathe, and have some stock and tooling around. It would give me an excuse to make something that actually has a tolerance...

I owe you anyway for your help on the paper-patch stuff.

[geargnasher]

Thanks, Anycal, I think I got it covered for now, but who knows!

Goodsteel, I thought I knew a little bit about bedding, but two hours of studying Ernie's articles showed me I did not, at all. I THINK I get it, now. The dial-indicator test of the barrel's position while experimenting with action screw torque was a real eye-opener, I never thought of doing that and always wondered much things got "loaded" when torquing screws with a skim-bed.

Gear

[tomme boy]

For some reason I thought that was a B&C Tactical stock. Sorry Gear. Savages have their own requirements when it comes to bedding though. Like I said about the rear tang and not the nut.

[btroj]

Tim, is that the system you use for bedding? If so, I suspect my rifle will shoot like nothing else. His write up explains it well, makes sense to me.

[geargnasher]

For some reason I thought that was a B&C Tactical stock. Sorry Gear. Savages have their own requirements when it comes to bedding though. Like I said about the rear tang and not the nut.

I'm way too cheap to buy a B&C, especially when the action bedding has to be done from scratch anyway. My original plan was to order a custom stock from Richards Microfit like Brad did, but the funds weren't there at the time and now I'm in more of a hurry. The tactical stock just makes sense for me right now. Plus, I want to show that a rifle doesn't have to be a 27lb F-class monster chambered in a petite small-bore to shoot well. It just has to be MADE well.

My next project is a push-feed Model 70 Featherweight that will have a heavy sporter barrel around 22", a ten twist, and be chambered in .30-'06. I already learned a few of the basics of how to make factory rifles shoot tiny groups at pretty high velocity with cast boolits, but some of the "techniques" required to do so are very labor intensive and the whole procedure could be streamlined to eliminate much of the work. I'm not too interested in sharing these techniques because they require more work in some instances than most people will put into them, so you haven't seen a lot of posting from me. But that's going to change.

Now that we have a forum gunsmith who can fix the gun portion of the equation, all that is left is the boolit caster/handloader part, and that learning curve to jacketed velocity with cast boolits is going to get a lot shorter. We'll show you how, and it doesn't take an F-class bench gun to shoot sub-half-inch groups at a hundred yards with cast.

Gear

[btroj]

Are you making fun of my overweight rainbow 4x4?

I think a nice 8 pound -06 would make a nice rifle. Even to go to 10 pounds leaves you with something that could be used for hunting.

A well built sporter will almost always outshoot a poorly made heavy. Build it straight and the bullets go straight. Remove a ton of variables at the lathe, I like that.

[geargnasher]

I don't plan to put 50-100 rounds of full-house '06 through a light sporter at one sitting, though. 4X4s have their uses.

OMG that made me think of something funny. I have a well-seasoned pressure-treated 4x6 in the wood pile. I could hack out part of it for the trigger, cut a barrel channel with a chain saw, pillar bed it, and use it for a bench gun. Imagine the looks I could get at the range with one of THOSE.

Gear

[btroj]

Dude, you need a winter project! It would be awesome.
If your wife is a good painter I think some nice painting would enhance the effect!

No need for a rest, just lag that sucker to the bench!

[MBTcustom]

Tommy,
The recoil lug I made for Ian's rifle is 3/8" thick, with about a 7* draft on both sides off the OD radius, ground flat within .00005, and smeared all over with a special release agent I make from ground up 4 leaf clovers. It should slip from the bedding compound like a baby from the mothers womb.

Brad, that is very close to the way I do pillars, sans the fancy gagetry because I have a milling machine to precisely (close nuff) locate the pillar holes.
I use Devcon 10-110 on everything (as needed). My study of epoxy has lead me to the conclusion that most epoxies are based on Epon products, and they all shrink when cured, unless they are filled with some sort of atomized solid. 10-110 is absolutely lousy with metal powder which makes it so that it can't shrink. It's like concrete.
I use only steel pillars, because I don't like what aluminum does with variances in thermal conditions. Steel just doesn't move as much. (coincidentally, this is why I'm a big fan of steel bases and rings and titanium scopes).
My bedding surrounds the recoil lug, and supports the front and rear action screws.
I used to bed the whole darn thing, including 1.5" forward of the recoil lug, but I believe that explains some stringing that I get in my rifles, so I amended my procedures. Sometimes less is more, and bedding is no exception.

[btroj]

Sounds good to me Tim. I don't make em, I just shoot em.

I like the way he sets the pillars then removes enough material to ensure that the receiver makes contact with nothing but the pillars before he skim coats it.

I plan to get so Burris Singature Zee rings for my scope. I need to get 30 mm rings but need to look at things to see how tall they need to be.

[geargnasher]

That seem to be the pillar-bedding trick, in a nutshell, Brad.

Burris Signature rings ROCK. The only gun I have, including rimfires, that doesn't wear them is my Savage .308, and only because I wanted to use the Leupold QD system on that gun. Those sort of self-align anyway, if you pay attention to your torque order and fiddle with them to get them good and settled-in before final tightening with a beam-type inch-pound torquewrench.

"ground up clovers" had me rolling.....[smilie=l:

OK, back to the boolit drawing......

Gear

[btroj]

I like the signature rings for the ability to use the offset inserts to get the scope centered up better. Looking on the Burris website it seems the 30 mm rings come with .010 offset rings too. I like that!

I don't draw bullets, I tell you or Tom what I am thinking of and let you do the dirty work! You may call me lazy, I call it management!

I need to get a trigger to Tim, don't want to tie him up and get nagging phone calls.......

[MBTcustom]

T
Goodsteel, I thought I knew a little bit about bedding, but two hours of studying Ernie's articles showed me I did not, at all. I THINK I get it, now. The dial-indicator test of the barrel's position while experimenting with action screw torque was a real eye-opener, I never thought of doing that and always wondered much things got "loaded" when torquing screws with a skim-bed.

Gear

indicators take a lot of the "religion" out of gunsmithing. It's all simple science.
This is why I told you to let the middle of the receiver float between the two action screws. When the barrel jumps as the shot is being made, there are forces being exerted that try to kink the action downward right in between those two screws. It's like a leaf spring, and must be allowed to go where it wants to go, because if it's attached to your stock, you will never get the same answer twice. Unless your stock is made of billet aluminum, you will never get a consistent buck in the action, which will set up janky harmonics.

Indicators are wonderful. They let you see things that no one sees, so therefor, you can draw conclusions that other's can't draw.
For instance, did you know that if you could eliminate the effect of gravity on your barrel alone, your shot would raise 1/2" to 1" at 100 yards? That is how much your barrel saggs from where it is being held by the action to where the crown is.
Incidentally, your barrel sags about .006. I know this, because I set the barrel up in the lathe exactly the same as it is set up in the rifle when I crown it, and I measure how much the tip of the barrel must be raised in order to run true in a supported position vs, and unsupported position.
God, I love this stuff!!!

[btroj]

Measurements don't lie. I bet most people wouldn't believe a barrel that big could sag at all.

[geargnasher]

Consistent Action Buck. That describes it PERFECTLY. Another accuracy term is coined!

I was going to do it your way and not Ernie's, it just makes sense. I think I'll float the back of the tang, too, for the same reason.

Back to scratching on the graph pad...

Gear

[btroj]

So you are essentially doing a pillar bed with minimal contact other than the pillar and a small area around the pillar?

[MBTcustom]

So you are essentially doing a pillar bed with minimal contact other than the pillar and a small area around the pillar?

That, and fully supporting that massive recoil lug.

[Doc Highwall]

Tim, I also bed about 1.5" in front of the recoil lug I learned that from Jim Cloward at Camp Perry about 30 years ago as it takes some stress off the receiver.

[geargnasher]

Not on a Savage, you don't! Barrel nut needs to float.

Yes, Brad, the whole front receiver ring and recoil lug gets bedded. I have some plasticene and a Dremel tool that will ensure that's all that touches. The rear receiver ring will have less contact, but more or less it will be about a 1/2" wide semicircle with the pillar in the middle.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

In case anybody is interested, here is another superb article on pillar bedding, although I think the guy is way to happy with his bedding compound IIHO. Other than the amount of coverage, I pretty much agree with everything the guy says.
http://www.6mmbr.com/pillarbedding.html
There's a video in there that shows how to crack the action out of the bedding. I've seen people actually hit the barrel with a hammer to crack the action loose!!! NoooooOOOOoooooOOOOooooOOOOOooooOOOOoooo!!!!
Watch the video.

[btroj]

Ok, why no bedding under the barrel nut on a Savage? If the slots in the nut were filled so the nut wasn't keyed into the bedding then what does it hurt? Is the nut not concentric enough to the action/barrel to sit stress free in bedding?

[MBTcustom]

The nut has nothing but the threads to hold it in place, and threads move constantly.
When you get your rifle back, in the first 100 shots, the threads are settling in to their "at rest" position. In a standard action, the threads are hidden well inside the action ring, and they are torqued to a square shoulder that is solid. On a savage, there is no hard stop on the barrel, it's all threads, so the potential for movement is great. The thing is, it's consistent movement and that's the name of the game with precision rifles.
Take a look at some HS video footage of rifles being fired, and you will realize the futility of trying to "eliminate movement". The trick is to tie it down where is needs to be tied down and let it float where it's going to float anyway.

It's like designing a car. If you're dumb and want strength with no compromise, you'll add weight and strength, and you end up driving an M1 Abrams tank to work. Or you'll go with gas milage and efficiency and you end up driving an electric lunchbox to work.
But the guy in the Cadillac just shakes his head. LOL!

[btroj]

Makes perfect sense. If it moves, let it move consistently. If it doesn't move, make sure it stays where it belongs.

In the end it is all about getting things to behave in as consistent a manner as possible. Easy to say, harder to do.

[Doc Highwall]

I agree about not bedding the Savage barrel nut but I have only bedded Remington, Winchester, and Anschutz.

[geargnasher]

Looking at my barreled action, it would be better probably to build some clamps for the barrel in the middle of the fore-end and bed/clamp about 8" of it and let the rest float. The receiver rails on the 110 long actions are so flimsy and thin they must be seen to be believed. BUT, short of a rail gun, that really isn't practical, so we clamp it in two points, keep it from twisting or moving fore-and-aft by bedding the lug, and let the rest go.

If you have a very stiff, short, single-shot bolt-action like many of the BR guns, it might make sense to skim-bed the whole action after bedding the pillars, but I'm certainly no expert. With a magazine well in the stock, and a huge hole in the bottom of the receiver, it doesn't make sense to try to bed the rails. Take a cardboard paper towel tube and bend it: Notice how it gets flat and wide in the middle? Same thing happens to a round-bottomed action under recoil, so it tends to spread and fret the stock in-between the bedding screw locations. The flimsy wood sides of the stock along the magazine box aren't going to stop that, and probably still wouldn't even if the box was filled with epoxy.

Gear

[btroj]

Magazine well? My 4x4 don't need no stinking magazine well. Mine will have solid rainbow colored wood there.

I think there is merit to a split device that clamps the rear 4 inches or so of barrel and lets the action and rest of the barrel float. I know a guy who made such a device for his long range target rifle in 6 BR. It shot very well for him. With 4 Allen head screws on either side of the barrel it was quite secure.

[btroj]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zps4518827d.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zps4518827d.jpg.html)

This is the style of stock I got, Tim calls it a rainbow colored 4x4.

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zps3bc12def.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zps3bc12def.jpg.html)

This is the color of laminate my daughter, wife, and I picked. It is called psychadelic. I figured that a rifle like this isn't supposed to look classic or tame, it needs to be bold and wild.

I think a nice, glossy finish, a bright stainless barrel, and a gloss blue action will be bold.

[Love Life]

Looks like a 2X4 to me....

[btroj]

Turn your monitor sideways so you can see the width. Dang it man, do I have to tell you everything?

[Love Life]

Yep.


I'm looking for an article now. It was written years ago and documented two men's journey to shoot the 308 Winchester to 1 mile. They used a barrel clamp instead of your traditional action screw set up. If I find it I'll post it here.

[btroj]

There was a series of article in PS a few years back about a guy shooting 1 mile for prairie dogs. The scope bases were custom made for the drop.

I miss PS, they had some awesome articles.

[btroj]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zps38ec6c7e.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zps38ec6c7e.jpg.html)

Something like this is what I saw. His was rounded on top but the effect was the same. Everything fore and aft of the block was free floating.

Whatcha think Gear?

[geargnasher]

Tim and I have been furiously pm'ing about this, it all started when he thought I meant clamping the barrel in the stock while the epoxy set (from a post I made above), but I was really talking about the way benchrest "rail" guns are mounted to the carriage. When you have a huge, long, heavy barrel and a really flimsy, long, thin Savage action to support it, and the two tied together with a barrel nut, it makes sense to abandon the rear bedding screw and use a chassis system that ties the front action screw, recoil lug, and a barrel clamp together and to the stock. The devil would be to figure out where to put the barrel clamp because it will establish a very positive vibration node, just like fretting a guitar string.

That vibration node could be used to great advantage, particularly if the front ring could be moved up or down the barrel, or it could be disaster. I don't know enough about the physics of the system to predict where it would best be put, and like any barrel tuner, it would be a one-trick pony once you got it set up.

Gear

[geargnasher]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zps38ec6c7e.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zps38ec6c7e.jpg.html)

Something like this is what I saw. His was rounded on top but the effect was the same. Everything fore and aft of the block was free floating.

Whatcha think Gear?

Holy shiet Batman. Where'd the back 3/4 of the receiver go? "Well, Robin, we don't need no steenking receiver. All we need is a bolt head and a 4# chunk of metal to hold the barrel".

Tim, do you have a migraine yet? You know where this is going to end up..... Sorry. No, not really. :p

Gear

[btroj]

The one I saw was a heavier barrel and the block was forward of the swell over the chamber.

Tim? Oh Tim, where are you?

Maybe Felix could chime in, he knows how this stuff works.

[Love Life]

That's the article I'm talking about Btroj. The scope mounts were a legit 2 inches tall!!

[geargnasher]

I think he's probably out behind his bluing shed wailing and pulling out his hair.

He was kind enough to offer to turn out a couple of steel pillars for me and this is what he gets. Really Tim, THANK YOU, I'm going to do it the old-fashioned way and be happy. Looks like I'm going to place an order with Brownell's tonight since I can't seem to find that Devcon stuff cheaper anywhere else.

Gear

[Love Life]

Holy shiet Batman. Where'd the back 3/4 of the receiver go? "Well, Robin, we don't need no steenking receiver. All we need is a bolt head and a 4# chunk of metal to hold the barrel".

Tim, do you have a migraine yet? You know where this is going to end up..... Sorry. No, not really. :p

Gear

I'm going to assume either a left port/eject, or the fired case comes out with the bolt. A solid action would less flex, yes?

[btroj]

Looking online it seems that most of the blocks are around 4 to 6 inches long and leave a small clearance between action and block.

I think 4 inches would be good enough. As for vibrations I think the norm for BR shooters is to adjust velocity to deal with nodes. I think we could well do the same.

Make a block with a hole maybe .040 larger than the barrel and bed the barrel to the block for full contact? Don't want to torque the block down enough to squeeze the barrel but if the barrel was a bit rough under the block it would hold the bedding well.

Another advantage is that the recoil lug could be totally eliminated as the bedding block would handle that chore too.

[Love Life]

Here ya go!! Courtesy of my favorite Tacticool LRP site!

http://forum.snipershide.com/elr-beyond-1000-yards/142463-killing-prairie-dogs-3-125-yards.html

[btroj]

I'm going to assume either a left port/eject, or the fired case comes out with the bolt. A solid action would less flex, yes?

Looks like a Savage long range target action to me. They have a small port.

So, does this have you thinking LL?

[btroj]

Here ya go!! Courtesy of my favorite Tacticool LRP site!

http://forum.snipershide.com/elr-beyond-1000-yards/142463-killing-prairie-dogs-3-125-yards.html

That is the article. I have that issue around here somewhere.

[Love Life]

Not much thinking going here. I've got a .243 coming I need to wring out so everything else is getting put on the back burner.

[geargnasher]

Part of the challenge with BR shooting is tuning the load for time of day, ambient temps, etc. Those folks work within very narrow zones, and the good ones can predict exactly how much powder to use and when. It's all about consistency and group aggregates. Everyone is shooting the same thing, prepping their brass about the same, and the velocity ends up being whatever it is for the class and caliber.

I for one want a more versatile rifle, to load with a variety of powders, boolit weights, try for different velocities, experiment with alloy, lube, and a variety of other things. This has all been done before, but not by me. Some things one must learn for themselves.

If all I wanted was to sit and punch tiny holes all day long I would have gone a different route.

Gear

[Love Life]

Not sure what you're looking for there Geargnasher. A properly set up rifle (Like you have) should accomplish the goal you posted. You may not be bugholes in all environs, but I bet you'll be sub MOA in all environs.

[MBTcustom]

I think he's probably out behind his bluing shed wailing and pulling out his hair.

He was kind enough to offer to turn out a couple of steel pillars for me and this is what he gets. Really Tim, THANK YOU, I'm going to do it the old-fashioned way and be happy. Looks like I'm going to place an order with Brownell's tonight since I can't seem to find that Devcon stuff cheaper anywhere else.

Gear

Actually, I was out in the shop breathing dark cutting oil smoke. I'm turning down a machine gun barrel to screw into a Mosin Nagant rifle that will end up being suppressed.
Before that, was a levergun barrel that is going to be suppressed also.

Point is, your going to have to dig a little deeper if you're going to get my goat.
If you got the money honey, I got the time.

[btroj]

Not sure what you're looking for there Geargnasher. A properly set up rifle (Like you have) should accomplish the goal you posted. You may not be bugholes in all environs, but I bet you'll be sub MOA in all environs.

I agree. The BR guys tune for bug hole groups, I would be very satisfied with the .25 inch groups they gripe about. Heck, if I can get in the .5 inch range on a consistent basis I will be happy.

Tim, how tough would a barrel block be to make? What kind of cost? Just curious.....

[cbrick]

Ok, time to catch your breath on this stuff so a little thread drift is in order. :mrgreen:

Tim, how much do want to blue that Blackhawk you said you wanted to blue when you were here? Hhmmm . . .

Rick

[Love Life]

Tim, to caveat on the thread drift, when are you gonna make a sweet case prep tool like cbricks?

[btroj]

Ok, time to catch your breath on this stuff so a little thread drift is in order. :mrgreen:

Tim, how much do want to blue that Blackhawk you said you wanted to blue when you were here? Hhmmm . . .

Rick

Thread drift? Where?

Yeah Tim, when are you gonna make a case prep tool like that?

[cbrick]

He must be a couch potato, just sittin around all day getting nuthin done. :mrgreen:

Rick

89991

[Love Life]

That picture is cruel. I have been cranking along today with my Wilson trimmer....

[btroj]

Rick, nobody likes a tease. That is just cruel. I hope he over polishes your revolver and dishes out every screw hole on it!

Does my jealousy show?

[Love Life]

^^Nice!!!!!

[cbrick]

Cruel? I don't understand, I think it's quite nice. See all that brass around the machine? You would never guess how fast it turns 414 Super Mag brass into 41 mag. Or uniforms primer pockets, flash holes, chamfers & deburs, outside neck turns, inside neck reams.

Did I mention that I can uniform a 1 hundred round box of primer pockets with attached Sinclair tool in 10 minutes. Geez, what's cruel about all that? :mrgreen:

[Love Life]

Rick, nobody likes a tease. That is just cruel. I hope he over polishes your revolver and dishes out every screw hole on it!

Does my jealousy show?

Then he'll have Colt quality!!

[btroj]

Cruel? I don't understand, I think it's quite nice. See all that brass around the machine? You would never guess how fast it turns 414 Super Mag brass into 41 mag. Or uniforms primer pockets, flash holes, chamfers & deburs, outside neck turns, inside neck reams.

Did I mention that I can uniform a 1 hundred round box of primer pockets with attached Sinclair tool in 10 minutes. Geez, what's cruel about all that? :mrgreen:

I'll send you some brass to trim up for me.......

That is one sweet machine. Making 414 into 41 mag is no small job for a trimmer. Think of how many blisters you don't have because of that thing.

[MBTcustom]

Weeeeeeeell I'll tell ya. I just happen to have a nice little motor here that a forum member across town gave me. However, I got to looking at it, and I think I might just build an adapter so that I can attach the Forster to my milling machine. I'm going to make a set of jaws for my vice that will clamp several different case heads, and simply attach the cutter to my milling machine spindle. Do away with the base on the Forster altogether.
*Yawn*

Rick, I charge $175 for bluing a rifle or a pistol, depending on how high you want it to shine.
Some people need something......special.
Take this Colt Python. It belonged to my client's deceased FIL and it had been cleaned with vinegar or something that severely damaged the finish. Said he wanted my best work.
When I delivered it back a few weeks later (OK, it might have been 7), his wife burst into tears.
89994
Here's the latch:
89995

[btroj]

I Think that qualifies as polished.

Dang it Tim, you are competing with the mould guys to empty my wallet. Good thing I don't buy many moulds.....

[MBTcustom]

Well, I'm still learning about all this, but we have some very talented forum members that have run the bluing tanks for some of the most renown manufacturers in the business. One feller in particular ran the bluing tanks for Dan Wesson, and was good enough to spend some time with me and tell me a few things, and I really do try to follow instructions.
I use the buffing wheels with a light hand, and do my best to make sure that your average enthusiast couldn't tell that it had been reblued.

[Doc Highwall]

That would be me with the bluing tanks at Dan Wesson.

[btroj]

He must have listen well Doc, looks like some darn nice work there.

[MBTcustom]

Indeed it was. Thanks again Doc! You sure helped get my feet under me.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I got a similar notion years ago. I had a hundred and twenty-some new 7.65x53 Argentine cases given to me. I just ran a few of the cases thru a 308W FL die. My old gunsmith used to make single flute reamers in his spare time. Took him about an hour, and you could get a chamber and arbor press dies out of one. The gun shop he worked at had purchased about fifty M1919 Browning machine gun barrels years back for like $10 apiece. We built all sorts of 30 caliber rifles with them. Fun, but not any more accurate than a 308W. Then, we went to a necked down 8x57. The idea was to use a Loverin style bullet and enclose the entire body in the neck. It was the most accurate of the iterations we played with. The cartridge did not need any throat, the ogive was short enough not to require one. The stock was an old Bishop BR stock, with the 3.5" wide fore end, and the rifle weighed about 19-20 pounds empty with an old 24X Unertl.

[MBTcustom]

Weight= poor mans accurizer.

[nhrifle]

And a little more thread drift... Tim, that's some darn fine work on that pistol!

[geargnasher]

Not sure what you're looking for there Geargnasher. A properly set up rifle (Like you have) should accomplish the goal you posted. You may not be bugholes in all environs, but I bet you'll be sub MOA in all environs.

By the time I posted that the context was lost somewhere on the previous page......I just meant that I'm not trying to build a "one trick pony" here to excel at one thing, it's a test bed for a lot of theories that are strong points of contention here on the forum regarding lube, alloy, and high-velocity cast boolits.

Lots of people get very tiny groups at cast. Some get tiny cast groups at long range. Very, VERY few know how to get tiny groups, very fast, at long range. I've been trying to learn the tricks, and have been given some basic pointers that weren't (though they should have been) intuitive to me, and have been working with that for the past couple of years. I've done some things with some guns that 99% of the people on this forum won't believe if I posted them. What Tim and I want to do is blow the doors off the mystery, pin down some specifics, and make high-velocity, accurate cast boolit shooting more practical for those wanting answers to such. We're both a bit tired of people coming up with all sorts of excuses why it isn't possible, or that anyone who says you can't do such and such with such and such a twist because of such and such is barking up the wrong tree.

We know some things limit the accurate velocity potential of factory rifles: Crooked chambers (there are ways around that, to a point, but it's a PITA). We know that neck clearances are excessive with typical brass and factory chambers (there are tricks around that, depending on what cartridge it can be simple or very complex to overcome), we know that case capacity has a lot to do with getting HV accuracy, but there are ways to fool powders and twist things around where we still get what it takes for a good launch. We know that it takes a good crown to get good accuracy, no way around that one. We know how to fire lap constrictions, reverse-tapers, and irregularities out of bores, we know how to fix bedding issues with factory and some military rifles. We know how to tune loads to match harmonic nightmares like the M1 or the Swede. We know how to balance alloy toughness and flexibility to survive launch and acceleration. We know a little bit about CORE and lube characteristics affecting performance. We know how to fit cartridges to our chambers, how to fit boolits to throats, how to achieve consistent neck tension, how to make concentric ammunition, and how to properly pre-load the headspace for consistent origination of harmonics (ignition plays a big role in that, too). We also know the mechanics of casting good, consistent boolits, how to seat primers and uniform pockets and flash holes for ignition consistency, and how to tune a load based on the shape of groups on target. We know how to modify our tooling to achieve the all-important objective of static fit, and how to establish static fit and build a load so that proper dynamic fit is achieved and an undamaged boolit emerges from the muzzle. I'm sure there's a LOT we don't know about, but right now we know about the challenges that factory and military rifles present to the cast boolit shooter both accuracy-wise and velocity-wise.

The object I have with this rifle, and Tim and I have discussed at length, is to eliminate the known artificial obstacles in the path of achieving high-velocity accuracy with cast boolits so we can see what's REALLY going on, and where the real limitations are.

Some will argue that excessive rotation from too-fast twists kill your groups past a certain point. Yup, no chit. Been dealing with that for years. But I'm not content to leave it at that. I know what really causes the problem, and am going to show why with this rifle. It's difficult to show others clearly with, say, a Marlin lever gun, what exactly it takes to shoot 5/8" groups consistently at 2100 fps. I won't even go into what I did with the Swede last year because nobody will believe it anyway (not as good as what Joe did, but I know why: Didn't have a boolit that fit quite right in the throat).

Another point is boolit lube. If you can't control or eliminate a thousand other variables, it's tough to pin down just what changes what or make any sort of informed generalization about a lube ingredient if the gun is uniquely sensitive to such things. How many times did one of us come up with a lube that worked great, only to find several other people, with different guns and different loads, found it sucked? I want a rifle that makes no compromises. If I change a percentage of one ingredient in a lube formula and the groups suddenly fall apart, I want to chrono the load and see that the lube changed the barrel time slightly and it fell out of a node, then adjust powder and see if that's the reason why the lube fell apart rather than assuming it just made things too slick or too grabby or whatever the suspicion was. If the change made to the lube makes it worse even after re-tuning the load (possible only with a predictable, stable, well-built rifle), then I have stronger data that the change was a bad one in general. Eliminating variables with the test platform is the only way I know to make the Lube Quest easier.

I also want to prove to people, definitively, that x amount of neck clearance has x effect on group size, when taken as a single point. I want to show how poor boolit and case fit, even in a good rifle, won't shoot well past 140K rpm. I want to show how just exactly what most people are doing wrong that limits them in both velocity and accuracy with their cast boolits. Essentially, my intentions are to tear the lid off of the secret can of cast boolit knowledge that either has been tightly sealed, or so well blended with the other cans that few can figure it out. Will everyone benefit from what we learn and show with these rifles Tim is building for us? I'm sure not many will. But some will. Being able to lay out the basic necessities of accurate, fast cast boolit performance should be helpful to the few who seek it, and it should no longer be necessary for a secret apprenticeship of years with a master to be the only way to learn. The problem in the past has been the format of knowledge, and how to convey it. There is a difference between technical writing and academic writing, and none of us that I know of who are willing so share what we know are particularly good at either, though most lean toward the academic. Academic articles of HV cast are fine and dandy and give for lively conversation and get the thoughts flowing, but they don't TEACH. Teaching a subject, or writing about it in an instructive manner, is the field of technical writing. Not much exists on "how to" shoot HV cast. Tim has built the foundation of a rifle which I believe will speak for itself and help shed some much-needed light into some dark corners of our hobby. Using this and a factory Savage .308 I've obtained for the same purpose, together with a "right and proper" lightweight sporter .30-06 with a factory twist that hopefully Tim will have time to rebarrel next year, I hope to put all this together in a technical way so that any intelligent, dedicated cast boolit shooter can learn how to get more out of their rifles than they ever imagined before. Plus, it's as good and excuse as any to buy guns, shoot them, and waste a lot of time typing on the internet. :-P

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Very well said Ian. However, I see this as just the first step in a long journey.
If I can experience some success in this business venture of mine, I intend to move to a bigger spread in the country and set up shop like I mean it.
I have a granite surface plate here (that squatted the springs on my truck rather well) that I would like to build a rail gun on. Absolutely eliminate any semblance of human error, but for now, these four rifles I am building are a first step.
They are meant to be a trophy to the recipient. My personal "thank you" for all the help I have received, and others have as well. The MBT "Golden Boolit Award" if you will.
Like you say though, I hope that these rifles will be used to learn and to help each recipient to do what they were already doing even better, and I swear to you on my knees that I did absolutely everything I could to build accuracy into the rifle. I may know more tricks here in another 5 years, but for now, each of these is to be a personal 1 in a million.

[cbrick]

That would be me with the bluing tanks at Dan Wesson.

Back in the day when Dan Wesson ruled the Long Range Revolver competition in silhouette they were the finest factory bluing I had ever seen. They shot pretty well too . . .

Rick

[runfiverun]

about 4 cc is in the ball park.
you'll gain or lose a little with your case thickness.

look at the picture gear posted of the finished case, it has a bit more going for it than just case capacity.
the neck length, case taper, and shoulder angle give the round a couple of other advantages.
like not speeding up a powder and effectively directing the gasses in a straighter line.
the case being longer and slightly thinner than the 308 has some ignition advantages too.

[geargnasher]

Got the steel pillars from Tim and bedded them tonight per Ernie's method, lookin' good!

Step two is to clean that up and bed the receiver around the screws and recoil lug. Perhaps tomorrow if I have time.

Might get to shoot it this weekend yet.

Gear

[btroj]

Sounds good.

Don't forget the moleskin on the stock or you will be wearing band aids for Christmas dinner.

[geargnasher]

I inletted the stock today at lunch, relieving all the material around the pillars and bedding area and clearancing for a thicker layer of epoxy behind the recoil lug. A little plasticene, JPW, mix mix mix, dab dab dab, squishhhhh, wipe wipe wipe and she's sitting in repose in the gun vise right now waiting for the chemical magic to finish happening. Action screws were snugged to about 20-inch-pounds, loosened to just zero, and retightened to three inch pounds.

Gear

[tomme boy]

Gear, have you ever tried the Q-Tip and WD-40 trick for cleaning up epoxy? Spray a q-tip with the WD-40 and while the epoxy is still soft, it wipes right up. You have to keep changing the tips, but it cleans up real nice.

[geargnasher]

Got it all detailed and put back together, WOO HOO! Now just to drag the gun vise out to the garage and check the crosshairs before final-torquing the scope rings.

After taking wifey to dinner I'll load some ammo so I can hopefully head to the range tomorrow.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ack. Back from the frozen, arctic blast of a range. Not even going to post target pics, best five-shot group was about an inch and a half, worst over three inches. Same exact load as last go with the factory stock and a cheap 3x9 with a loose windage screw.

So, I don't know. Either the lube doesn't like 38 degrees, something's way off with the new stock and pillar bedding, the new T-36 is having problems, or the wind that blew the scope adjustment cover caps off the bench several times was affecting groups. I don't think the wind blasting hard from 1:00 is the issue here, I was getting vertical AND horizontal dispersion, just random. Could have done better with my revolver I bet, but I'd had enough of being cold.

I'll try it again on a better day with a different lube.

Gear

[runfiverun]

could be the bedding too.
i have seen it take 20-30 shots for a newly bedded rifle to settle down.

[btroj]

38 degrees and windy? In Texas? And you were outside?

Hard to say what happened. Lube could be an issue but I haven't ever seen a lube that shot poorly in cold after the barrel warmed a bit if that lube did well in warmer weather.

Sometimes I just decide it wasn't my day and move on to the next day.

As my wife puts it, sometimes you are the pigeon, sometimes you are the statue. You had a statue day.

[geargnasher]

The last group was in fact the best, it actually came in just over an inch, but it took two hours to get 30 rounds downrange due to a rather green and annoying RO at the range. Rather than observe the line and make assessments of those needing to check/post targets in groups to minimize cease-fire time, he stopped us for every single one, right on the spot. I managed to get off five un-interrupted shots during a particularly steady blow, but even that didn't heat the barrel. I could feel the cold wind blowing through the action from the muzzle with the bolt open, which it was most of the time. This was weird, usually when benching a long string at the range I'm pondering pouring a bottle of cold water through the bore every ten shots or so to keep it from blistering the finish on the fore-end.

I'll check action screw torque again. I actually set the scope up at the range and torqued everything to spec on the spot, I just couldn't get a good reading on it here at home. Ever try to level the crosshairs on a 36-power scope in a 14' room?

Gear

[tomme boy]

If you have a 1-piece base it is really easy. Take a set or two of feeler gauges and stack them under the scope at the flat of the center of the scope. Keep stacking or taking them out as you tighten down the scope rings. Perfect level every time. As long as the reticle was put in square anyway.

[Love Life]

Odd. It was 61 degrees with a 1-2 MPH half value wind here at 5,000 ft elevation. We need to swap weather and we'll both be shooting better!! Seriously, the Mirage has been brutal here.

[geargnasher]

Two-piece base, action screw holes not drilled exactly right per Savage Precision, and no flat places on the action to judge from. It was FUN getting the action bedded straight, the action screws aren't perfectly aligned, either. The scope bases are level with the stock, but the bolt raceways are off a few degrees. The other difficulty is the super-fine crosshairs. But I'll say that all was worth it the first time I lined up on a the 1/8" diamond in the middle of the 1" orange pasties at 100 yards, and didn't have to lug a spotting scope to the range.

I still need some Tacticool stock tape and a better rear bag, the bag I have is too wide at the base and too short so it's difficult to snuggle up to the buttstock from a bench.

Maybe what I need is a LRT bipod!

Gear

[Love Life]

I hate bipods, but they do come in handy. How is the clarity on that weaver?

[geargnasher]

Very good if you have time to get the focus fine-tuned. It's great on the bench but I'd want a side-focus if I were shooting prairie dogs with it. I could easily tell that the lube stains around the boolit holes were being very consistent from 100 yards, but I also noticed the sharpness fluctuating as the target backer (A piece of cardboard stapled to a pair of 1x2s stuck in a steel stand, the range standard) swayed toward and away from me a few inches in the wind. For less than $450 bucks I don't believe you'll beat it or even come close.

Gear

[alphapredator]

Any thing else going on with the 30 xcb?

[runfiverun]

waiting on the rifles and stuff, Tim still has to make a living.

[btroj]

waiting on the rifles and stuff, Tim still has to make a living.

Pretty much. We are back burner to making a living. Least we should be.

[Love Life]

It'll be worth the wait. Trust me.

[btroj]

That is one thing I am certain of.

I have another build in mind. Please don't tell my wife.

[Love Life]

I'm snitching.

[cbrick]

I have another build in mind. Please don't tell my wife.


I'm snitching.

To late, I already left her a text message. :mrgreen:

Rick

[btroj]

Thanks guys, I knew I could count on you.

Rats, nothing but a bunch of rats

[DCM]

Thanks guys, I knew I could count on you.

Rats, nothing but a bunch of rats

I have a very good friend locally, every time he steps on his crank(pretty often) we tell him not to worry, we won't tell anybody... we will tell Everybody. So welcome to the club.

[btroj]

I broke the news to her. She wasn't too amazed at all. Maybe I finally have her broken in?

[runfiverun]

broken in ??? doubtful,,, wore down? maybe..
I told the wife I was all but done buying new rifles,,,, I was just gonna have the ones I do have, rebuilt into what I really wanted.
I think she only heard the first part of what I said..

[btroj]

And women say we have selective hearing.......

My biggest problem is that I need to convince my father that his Mod 70 would like a new barrel and stock........

[MBTcustom]

And women say we have selective hearing.......

My biggest problem is that I need to convince my father that his Mod 70 would like a new barrel and stock........

PM me his phone number. I'll convince him for ya!

[geargnasher]

Yes, it will be worth the wait. Tim's rifles SHOOT.

BTW, Brad, I've been working all day and will be at it again tomorrow earning some OT, but I did get my throat slugs lined up and some measurements taken. Once I get the taper figured right I'll update Tom and see if he can get the next iteration of the 31-185G drawn up. You OK with 185-ish grains? It seems perfect to me in the configuration and case capacity, right between the ideal .308 and 30-'06 weights.

Gear

[Love Life]

When I mention a new gun purchase, the Mrs. asks if the bills are paid. I love that woman!!


P.S. Tim's rifles shoot very well.

[btroj]

Gear, that sounds about perfect. Working some OT? I haven't done that in years. I used to get about a day a month when I was younger. I don't miss that.

I'm pretty sure dad will let me use the rifle. He can't shoot it any more anyway. About 5 years ago he suddenly went blind in his right eye and he is a righty. I found some offset scope mounts but they just didn't work on that rifle. They are perfect on my daughters Rem 700 in 300 savage so he used that for hunting now. Right shoulder, left eye. Isn't bad to do at all. He uses the same with a red dot on his shotgun for turkey.

Because he can't use it I'm pretty sure he will be game. Neither of my brothers are hunters or shooters so they aren't interested in it anyway. I just gotta ask.

The wife won't mind. Much. She is really pretty good about this as long as I make sure she is taken care of too. A trip to Paris next year should take take of that obligation.

[runfiverun]

a 185 at 24-2500 fps won't have too many uses other than hunting or making holes in paper...

[btroj]

What other uses are there?

[Love Life]

Rebarrel that Winchester and shoot 800 yd groups like these...

[btroj]

It won't be shooting that far, I'm looking at a pure cast bullet shooter. I really think a 358 Win is the way I will be going. It is a long action so a 35 Whelen would fit but I like the powder capacity on the 358 Win.

[btroj]

Oh, that is some dang fine shoot LL.

Looks like you know your way around a trigger.

[MBTcustom]

What we aught to do is a 358XCB. I'm not kidding. Just a little bit more powder capacity would put 3031 right in the drivers seat for 2400FPS.

[btroj]

35 Whelen run in 1/4 inch short? Sound like a neat idea. The longer neck sure wouldn't hurt.

3031? I have never, ever used it. Hard to believe in 30 years of reloading but I just haven't. I would probably look at RE 15 pretty hard.

[geargnasher]

What we aught to do is a 358XCB. I'm not kidding. Just a little bit more powder capacity would put 3031 right in the drivers seat for 2400FPS.

So, have you given up sleep altogether, or cloned yourself? :kidding:

PS, don't forget my Model 70 needs a new barrel in amongst all those projects you keep dreaming up! Guess I'd better get to barrel shopping before the "good idea faery" dumps another bucket of pixie dust on you....

Gear

[runfiverun]

yeah speaking of model 70's.
I got a push-feed action I need to send your way to have a purple 7mm barrel screwed onto it.
and a stock found and glued to that...and a bolt handle,,,,, and maybe a trigger.

a 35 XCB would be pretty dang good too...

[MBTcustom]

So, have you given up sleep altogether, or cloned yourself? :kidding:

PS, don't forget my Model 70 needs a new barrel in amongst all those projects you keep dreaming up! Guess I'd better get to barrel shopping before the "good idea faery" dumps another bucket of pixie dust on you....

Gear

That would be a very good idea Ian. The sooner the better.

[felix]

I wonder if we shouldn't make these Mosin actions work for these single-shot projects. The actions are dime a dozen, and prolly still are. Jumptrap, a member here some time ago, did a destruction test with one and just couldn't make it budge with any overload tried. Massive pistol powder amounts. He used the string and tractor tire concept for the firing. Question, can the bolt-face be modified easily/cheaply? ... felix

[felix]

3031 is an excellent 30 caliber powder, and is very versatile with various payloads and GUNS. ... felix

[MBTcustom]

The big hurtle with the Mosin is that extractor. It's made for the Russian cartridge in the first place which is rimmed and larger than the 308/06/mauser cartridges. A custom extractor would have to be fabricated/modified for each one. I'll have to do some pondering to see if I can come up with something.

Hey Brad, your barrel is in the lathe.

[runfiverun]

I seen a 7mm made up on the 348 win case a number of years ago, it mocks the win wssm round super close in velocity.

anyway a super good barrel [properly chambered], a good trigger, on a mosin action modified to single shot, most likely wouldn't need a case change.
if good brass could be found....

[btroj]

The big hurtle with the Mosin is that extractor. It's made for the Russian cartridge in the first place which is rimmed and larger than the 308/06/mauser cartridges. A custom extractor would have to be fabricated/modified for each one. I'll have to do some pondering to see if I can come up with something.

Hey Brad, your barrel is in the lathe.

Awesome!

Thanks for the photos. Wife was sorta like, yeah? So what.

Women.....

[swheeler]

I seen a 7mm made up on the 348 win case a number of years ago, it mocks the win wssm round super close in velocity.

anyway a super good barrel [properly chambered], a good trigger, on a mosin action modified to single shot, most likely wouldn't need a case change.
if good brass could be found....

Sounds like the 7mm Gradle

[MBTcustom]

Well, at long last I am getting after the Technicolor 4X4.

As with all the XCB rifles, I took my time setting up the barrel in the lathe. Kriegers are such a pleasure to work with! Makes it really easy to get things perfect. Even for Kreiger, this barrel is exellent.
Here I am turning the tenon and cutting the threads with the barrel set up in the superbearing:
97510

97511

Perfect fit, with exactly .010 space between the bolt face and the end of the barrel. The bearing surface for the recoil lug will be cut later:
97512

Next, I reamed the chamber stopping .020 short of perfect headspace, using my self-designed true-floating reamer holder. After reaming, I cleaned the chamber and the reamer very well, slipped the reamer back in the chamber and satisfied myself that I had reamed a perfectly tight chamber by checking deflection and comparing measurements taken from the rear of the chamber to the corresponding location on the reamer. Then the barrel was turned with the indicator placed on the shank of the reamer, in order to observe that the chamber was not only tight, but perfectly straight. This is one of the best ones yet as the needle barely quivered as the barrel and reamer were turned. I'll be conservative and call it .0004 runout.
97513
So what does all that mean for Brad?
Means that sucker's going to shoot. That's what it means.
I might also mention that I checked the runout in the middle of the barrel with the barrel at rest and under no external stresses, and noted the high spot on the outside of the barrel, how much it was, and where it was. When this chamber was cut, that measurement was identical while trapped and fixtured in the lathe, as it was at rest. This means that I imparted no strain on the barrel whatsoever by holding and turning it in the lathe. I take great pride in my ability to do this!

Finally, I made the recoil lug, and surface ground it. I had to flip it about 7 times, but I got .000050 TIR that I was after. It's flat and parallel, and made of the same material that the barrel is (416 SS)
It was machined from billet, from a piece of certified steel
97516

Good times.
Now that I am satisfied with the flatness of the lug, I will proceed to cut in the bearing surface for that piece.

[runfiverun]

Sounds like the 7mm Gradle

yep that's it.

[338RemUltraMag]

What variables would need to be considered to make an 8mm version? Would give numbers smack between the 30 and 35, I could get in on that!

[btroj]

An 8 mm version would be very similar to an 8 x 57. This is basically an 06 reamer run in short to give a case the same length as an 8 x 57 but with the shoulder, neck, and throat of an 06.

To do an 8 mm version one needs an 8 mm 06 reamer and an 8 mm barrel.

I think a 35 makes more sense but I don't own an 8 mm or any moulds for one so there isn't a saving there. I just like the 35 cal bullets available and think it makes sense to go 35.

[MBTcustom]

An 8 mm version would be very similar to an 8 x 57. This is basically an 06 reamer run in short to give a case the same length as an 8 x 57 but with the shoulder, neck, and throat of an 06.

To do an 8 mm version one needs an 8 mm 06 reamer and an 8 mm barrel.

I think a 35 makes more sense but I don't own an 8 mm or any moulds for one so there isn't a saving there. I just like the 35 cal bullets available and think it makes sense to go 35.

Not exactly Brad. 8mmXCB would have a longer neck than the 8mm Mauser cartridge, as well as more properly designed throat, and also it would get that inherently close tolerance fit between the FL sizing die and the chamber of the rifle.

The only variable to consider is neck diameter.
If you want such a thing to be built, we can make it happen. My vision is to have a whole line of XCB reamers in all different calibers.

[338RemUltraMag]

Tim,

I would Love an 8mm version, something easy like the 30 XCB, I would want to use a .321 bore because of the available slow twists (1-16 comes to mind) that will stabilize a 323471 at 1900 fps. I was going to have my local smith do this as an 8x57 but you guys would know how to ring out ALL the inherent accuracy for a cast boolit round.

As for my bore choice... Well... an 8mm vs 35 cal debate isnt for here but you can hazard a guess as to what size I will take.

As a final question, I want a very accurate rifle but hate scopes, could this be made up as a surplus look alike (based off of a M48) OR would the results be easier to come by if it were made like a varmint style rifle?

Can open sights be fitted to said rifle?

Now lay it on my, How far off kilter am I?

Joshua

[felix]

Just what we were talking about last night, Tim. You know what to do. ... felix

[runfiverun]

josh... 1900?
a 1-16 would be on the slow side for that, a 1-12 would be better suited for the 1800-2300 zone.
if you had a particular boolit in mind then the rifle 'could' be throated to it.

I'm thinking one boolit design.
one case design.
one throat design.
just different diameter holes.

that would simplify everything, and really help drive home the concept of fit, and function.

[338RemUltraMag]

That was MY thought as well, I will cut me a 323471 boolit mold, then have the rifle throated cut and made FOR that boolit.

I ran the numbers through the stability calculator and 1-16 will stabalize that pill at 1900 fps, I plan to shoot at full speed. The barrel company also offers a 1-14 twist bore which may be better suited as it offers stability down to 1300 fps.

I woukd like to start with a military action and work from there, either making it a sleeper target rifle in military dress or make a varmint rig from it with the ability to run a scope as well.

[runfiverun]

the 14 should stabilize 125 [and maybe 150] jacketed when pushed into the 2800+ range which the 8 version should easily be capable of.

[MBTcustom]

Tim,

I would Love an 8mm version, something easy like the 30 XCB, I would want to use a .321 bore because of the available slow twists (1-16 comes to mind) that will stabilize a 323471 at 1900 fps. I was going to have my local smith do this as an 8x57 but you guys would know how to ring out ALL the inherent accuracy for a cast boolit round.

As for my bore choice... Well... an 8mm vs 35 cal debate isnt for here but you can hazard a guess as to what size I will take.

As a final question, I want a very accurate rifle but hate scopes, could this be made up as a surplus look alike (based off of a M48) OR would the results be easier to come by if it were made like a varmint style rifle?

Can open sights be fitted to said rifle?

Now lay it on my, How far off kilter am I?

Joshua

Well, I can certainly make you a rifle that closely resembles a military mauser, but you have to understand that it would drive the cost up tremendously!
If you want iron sights, that can be easily aranged, as thats exactly what I will be producing for Lamar. However, if you are after irons AND glass, thats also percectly doable, albeit slightly more expensive. It just depends how much you want to invest in the project. Anything is possible.

[MBTcustom]

BTW, I agree with Lamar. I wouldnt go any slower than 1-14 twist.

.338 Federal on steroids? What a novel idea!!!

[338RemUltraMag]

Tim,

What would be the difference between the two labor wise? If I were to provide all of the materials? Opens are where it is at, but I would like it D/T for a scope for my "golden years" lmao

I am more interested in a very nice cast shooter than what it looks like.

[MBTcustom]

You're putting the cart before the horse. Sight's and looks are just extra's. Start a rifle build with an action. That's the pivotal thing that marries the barrel to your shoulder. Next decide on a barrel. If there is one place you do not want to cut cost, that would be the place. Get the best barrel you can possibly beg, borrow, steal, purchase, or bribe (or any combination of those options!)
A rifle with a good barrel will never do too badly, but there is just so much you can do with a good smith and a tricky hand at the reloading press to apologize for dropping the ball on that critical component.
Next, plan on getting a good trigger. That makes all the difference.
The stock is the last of the really foundational necessities for an accurate rifle. It's worth getting something that is not plastic. Wood is good, laminated wood is better, fiberglass is the best.
Once you get all of those things lined out, and set in your mind, then is the time to discuss sights.
Let's swap a few more PM's and we'll get you lined out. You're on the right track now.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming......
LOL!

[Love Life]

Real men shoot 4.5 lb triggers...

[MBTcustom]

Iron Finger speaks!

[338RemUltraMag]

Now on to the design of a 8mm XCB, new thread or hammer it here!

[Love Life]

I did lighten the trigger though.

If you move into the 8mm realm I am definitely interested. I'd be amenable to going in on the reamer. My question is what would you gain from an 8mmXCB when the 8X57 is already a well balanced cartridge? Wouldn't the quality of the build eliminate a lot of the "Doh's" of a factory or milsurp?

I have a Remington Classic in 8X57 that was much easier to get going with cast than my milsurp was so in my mind a donor Remington action (which I have) with a Krieger and your 3,200 lb magic wand would make the 8mm and cast a slam dunk-ish deal. Am I off there?

[338RemUltraMag]

The only thing I can see doing is making it an 8mm-06, it gives the longer neck and allows 200 gr boolits 2600 fps or 220's at 2500.

Lower pressures and longer neck, never a bad thing.

Also only pacnor and douglas offer slow twist 8mm barrels

[Love Life]

Call Bartlein. They use CNC and cut just about anything. Even gain twist...

Krieger is showing a 1 in 14 8mm straight contour in stock right now. Inventory number O15. Chrome Moly (takes a fine bluing!!) and 6 groove rifling.

[338RemUltraMag]

Where the H ya find that? I must have horrible vision!