Downrange boolit energy? (a .357 question)

[LeadThrower]

I've seen plenty of statements about dropping deer (and elk?!?) with a 357 mag. Large game hunting with a revolver in CO requires 550 ft-lb at 50 yards...

How does one determine boolit energy 50 yards out? Muzzle energy is all I ever see quantified. I suppose there's an equation out there which ties muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient together to calculate energy down range, but I haven't seen it. Any suggestions? If a quantitative answer is hard to come by, I'd greatly appreciate hearing what has experience has taught you!

In any case, I have to lot of range time to put in before I'll even consider hunting with my 357.

Thanks in advance for any insights!

[454PB]

I agree. The .357 is a marginal cartridge for deer, and out of the question for larger game out of a handgun. Will it kill this game?.....yes, but usually after they have run off and hidden somewhere. There are tables in many of the reloading manuals you can use to calculate velocity and energy at various ranges.

[standles]

One equation that wil lget you that is F=MA

You may have to do a little derivations to make it suitable but it works :mrgreen:

[fourarmed]

Check the ballistic tables in the Lyman (or other) loading manuals. They usually give velocity and energy at the muzzle and multiples of 100 yards. Interpolate for 50 yards.

[44man]

Energy should not even be considered. It will do nothing but give you false hope. What counts is the frontal diameter and how far it will penetrate. In the case of the .357 that means after expansion. The majority of bullets or boolits lack the weight and meplat to start with and without the weight they peter out fast. Some are constructed too lightly. Anything over 50 yd's on deer is iffy.
Bullet selection is going to be where you need to look, not energy. You want a heavy bullet, some expansion without being explosive or opening more then needed and as much penetration as you can get. The .357 CAN do the job if you realize there are restrictions like distance and bullet construction.
This is why the .44 and up shines. Heavy boolits, wide meplats, no expansion needed with the right boolit, and complete penetration on most animals. But, you can also get in trouble finding game with these too if you choose the wrong bullets/ boolits. The energy and velocity is just not that important if you have the right boolit. Granted the right boolit going faster will disrupt more internal organs however a big hole all the way through is also effective.
My choice would be the .44 or larger for any big game hunting. Since you need to meet state requirements that are silly to start with because the wrong bullet with the required energy can give you nothing to eat, best to just go larger.

[MtGun44]

44 man is saying wise words.

Think of a handgun as a power drill. You need to drill a deep hole, and
wider is better. Expect zero shock, kinda like an arrow, just damaging
parts that are needed to live. Placement is everything.

I have seen a number of whitetails taken with .357 and it worked just fine.
Where you would get into trouble is using a light expanding bullet, like
a 110 gr HP or 125 hp. A 'hunting' hollowpoint like 158 Hornady XP is intended
to balance expansion and penetration for hunting applications rather than
self defense applications like the light factory HPs. Federal's factory 180
WFN 'Cast Core' is very accurate in my guns and would be a good choice
from factory ammo, IMHO.

A keith SWC would do a great job on penetration but will leave a smaller
hole than the .44 or .45. Put the bullet thru the heart or two lungs and
you can guarentee a dead deer. A hollow point Keith 173gr mold would be
great (read Glen Fryxell's articles) with a careful selection of alloy, but the
molds sell for gold prices used and are out of production.

Bill

[Old Ironsights]

ARRRGH!

Please Please PLEASE differientiate between .357 out of a revolver (psudo-sucky) to .357 out of a RIFLE.

If the .357 were so bad, why the heck are we on C358-180-RF #4?

Yes, the .357 is a 100 yd (+/- a very little) big-game rifle cartridge. But jeez. Put a decently placed 180gr Boolit through somthing at 1000fps (1800 MV) it's gonna die sooner than later.

[kawalekm]

Hello Leadthrower
My Hornady reloading manual gives energies at distances from the muzzle. For a 158grain 357 bullet at 1800 fps from a rifle, the energies remaining at 50 an 100 yards are 857 and 645 foot pounds respectively. From a handgun at 1300 fps the remaining energies are 465 and 388 footpounds respectively. Realisticly, people are talking about hunting with a rifle. From personal experience though I have shot a deer with a 150 cast SWC and which shattered the deer's heart and then exited. Keeping the range close is the key!

[LeadThrower]

Folks,
Thanks your for the well-reasoned answers, and thanks to kawalekm for the data. I'll be doing a lot of research and will punch many holes in paper before I think about using my 357 to bring home dinner, large or small. It's nice to have the benefit of your insights early in this effort!

I've read some of Glen Fryxell's articles but will seek out the one to which you refer, MtGun44.

-- Eric

[MtGun44]

When looking for Glen's article, look for hollowpoint alloys, he has a good
handle on the expansion that you get with different alloys. IIRC he
has had pretty good results with hard alloys that shatter the HP off
making a mess locally and then penetrate with the remaining bullet
as a wadcutter.

I have never used lead HPs in hunting, just big .44 Keiths and they
did just fine when located well. Only when misplaced did the animal
run very far. Even then, only 40- 50 yds to dead, full exit - and I mean
misplaced like 3" from intended location of impact. That's the warthog
in my avatar, by the way.

Ft-lbs really isn't very meaningful in hunting. Bullet performance is critical,
and the Keith designs work very well and penetrate far beyond what
most folks would expect.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

One deer with the 357 Magnum revo, used the Speer 146 grain HP half-jacket (talk about OLD SCHOOL.......) running about 1375 FPS from a S&W 586 x 6". This from a treestand at about 15 yards, bullet went through and through, and the critter fell as if struck by a two-step krait.......step, step, collapse. I think the 357 Magnum IN A HANDGUN needs to be viewed in the context of archery tackle, and maybe recurve instead of wheelbow. Be willing to pass on marginal shots, and place your shot well when taken.

NO ARGUMENT that the 41 and 44 Magnum are superior deer-taking implements. That debate is a total non-starter. But I hark back to times in my mid-20's when I was a 2-caliber reloader, a young deputy turning wrenches in a garage on my days off for spare money with two young children to bring up. All I had for a magnum revolver was a 357 Magnum, and the 308 rifle--and had to scrimp to get those. The revolver was my duty gun, also. I would venture to say that a lot of folks are in similar circumstances, and it's not my place to tell them a 357 Magnum revolver shouldn't be used to hunt deer with. I say this thinking back to that young deputy, and in the context of archery tackle being used to hunt deer successfully in great numbers. Assuming good placement, it would be a tough argument to posit an arrow being more lethal than a 160 grain Keith SWC or 180 grain round flatnose (or Nosler Partition) at full-potential velocity from a wheelgun. You won't see or hear me decrying the 357 Magnum as a deer-taker. That dog won't hunt in any field I'm working.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

9.3X62- Well put sir. I can atest to "having to do without" and making do with what I have. A surpising number of non-traditional calibers have been shown to be sucessful when used with some common sense. I think most people would be highly surprised by how many deer have been taken with the lowly 22LR. Of course you'll never get the poacher to fess up.[smilie=1:

Everett

[44man]

Old ironsights, PLEASE, Leadthrower said REVOLVER! :coffee: Sure, the 180 gr out of a rifle extends the distance but he didn't ask about that.
But I grant you that you said one magic word---180 gr boolit. Good penetration, just need a little expansion to widen the hole.
Remember that he is faced with goofy regulations that have no bearing to fact.
I see the same problem with broadheads these days. Most states require a cutting diameter large enough to kill and recover game. But if you are an archer, look at some of the tiny heads being used today because the speed freaks can't tune their bows.
Any good bow or the .357 will kill game very well, it just takes some knowledge for each.
I laugh at the fast bow guys and their super light arrows and tiny heads. They quote energy figures like it means something. But that silly arrow will stop RIGHT NOW when it hits a deer. A slow, but heavy arrow keeps on going all the way through. Speed it up and nothing stops it, same as a gun. The tiny head does NOT cut enough, same as a little boolit without some expansion. The boolit also needs some weight.
I have just shot my 230th deer with a bow. I want the arrow deep in the ground on the other side of the deer, energy be damned. I also want 2 holes from my revolvers.
Revolvers and bows are very close to what they need to kill. However, the bow needs a larger hole because of the lack of transmitted energy that disrupts organs. We all will agree that the larger the boolit diameter and the faster it goes, the quicker it will kill and if the boolit is large enough, the velocity is not that important as long as we get the penetration. Balance!

[Larry Gibson]

I've seen quite a few deer killed with the .357 out of a revolver. Never saw one shot in a vital area that didn't die sooner than later. What bullet is best depends on the barrel length, i.e velocity. Out of 4" barrel the faster (1400 fps) 125 SP/HPs kill quicker at pentrate just fine, even through the front legs. Ount of 6" barrels the 140-150's SP/HPs kill a little quicker and out of the 7 1/2-8 3/8ths barrels the heavier bullets do well. Deer are just not that big, even out west, through the heart lung area. I've not seen any of the 125s fail to penetrate at least through to the off side with the deer dying quickly. Hate to say it but the expanding jacketed bullets killed quicker than any regular cast SWC bullet because they did more damage. That includes the Keith SWCs and some of the wider ones. I've used cast WCs (can't get any wider Meplat than that) cast hard and loaded to 1400 fps that plowed right through shoulder to shoulder of a couple deer. They died but it took longer than with a 125 Winchester HP at 1450 fps. Now on the other hand a 358156 cast of 3-5% antimony lead shot and HP'd (1/8th" drill) to about 1/2 the depth of the bullet nose and pushed to 1450 FPS (6" barrel with 2400) with kill deer shot in the heart lung area all day long with the best of the big boys because it expands nicely, most often penetrates through and through and does a lot of damage in between. The distance that I shoot deer with handguns is about 75 yards with a iron sighted revolver and that is with a rest or sitting position, even with my .41 and .44 magnums. Off hand 50 yards is about max for me. That distance is short enough that I don't get to exited about retained energy. My concern is putting the bullet in the heart lung area. Past that and I can't do it with any amount of certainty. I start them off with enough velocity that they get there with enough velocity/energy at my practical revolver ranges so i don't worry about it.

The .357 with true magnum loads has all the power needed for deer. I do not believe it is marginal. What I do believe is marginal is the shooting ability of most handgunners with .44+ magnums. Most can shoot a .357 well with a little practice. Many with the .44+ magnums can't shoot them well even after a lot of practice. I've watched too many show up at the range and also watched the "Dirty Harry's" show up on police ranges with .44s when I was a LEO firearms instructor. Someone who can shoot the .357 well but can't quite handle the .44 should look at the .41 magnum, perhaps they will do well with it. If not stick with the .357 and put the bullet in the deer where it belongs and the deer is dead in short order.

As mentioned; rifles and Contenders with 10"+ barrels are another story as are longer barreled and scope revolvers when shot from a rest.

Larry Gibson