Range update with 750 grain .69 conical musket boolit.

[littlejack]

Hey fellas:
Here a while back, I posted that I had loaded and shot a few .69 cal musket boolits.
I was checking for pressure signs at that particular time. All was well.
Forward to last week.
I finally cast up and loaded enough to go to the range a check for accuracy. Well to make a long story short, the big 750 grainers did NOT do well at all.
The load was as follows.
Hull-- Remington Nitro 3" mag.
Powder/charge-- BlueDot/38 grains.
Wad-- Helix-Cushion Driver 18, with 2 Nitro OPW for bullet support.
.69 caliber (actually dropped .688) caliber musket bullet, sized to .677.

I had to resight to begin with, as at the last session, one of my scope rings broke. I had to re-mount the scope, and get the brute to hitting the paper.
OK, the groups were 9" at 50 yards. Is that "Minute of Buffalo" or what? At 100 yards, shooting at dirt clods, the boolits were all over the place.
Anyway, the wads looked good. The recoil wasn't that bad, or else my shoulder had gone numb.
I have read elsewhere (maybe on this site) that shotshell slugs (should) be shaped with straight sides, and a
broader front/nose. This conical boolit definitely has the radiused upper, and a 3/16" meplat.

I do not really know if I should proceed further with my slug loads and this .69 cal. conical boolit. I have had good success with the Lyman Sabot Slug, and also with my .680 round ball load. I was just looking to load a heavier slug to catch up to the weight of the old Paradox loads. I guess there is really no need for such a behemoth lead slug for the lower 48.
However, it WOULD be a dandy for close range work on the big bruins in Alaska. If one has the nerve
to stand there eyeball to eyeball with one.
Regards
Jack

[hubel458]

Is this smooth bore. If smooth not to bad with other stuff added.
...Roll or fold crimp?

Were was OPW wads put? I used the 69cal right in the bottom of
CD 18 wad cup. It has its own seal and its cup bottom is strong enough for the slug
if you don't use too fast of powder..
Use more of a slower powder that fills case to bottom of the
wadcup seal and get the speed up a little..Like 4759

If sealing is not perfect and seal part looks burnt
add a BPGS seal under the wad seal as they will fit
into each other. That is the only seal to add to that.
Or you beef up the seal like AJAY does with a 20 ga
card in the underside middle of the seal.

One thing that is a factor is the crush part of wadcup
can get cocked off like all wadcups made for shot when
used that way for slugs and can affect accuracy.

Now I really do like those 69cal slugs and I glued
the slugs in a few of the HCD wad and tested them
in smooth bore. Got 3 shots in 3 inches at 30 yds.
If they are locked together I think the cushion
cocking has less bad effects.Ed

Have my own cheap Brenekke style.Ed

[littlejack]

Hey Ed:
The barrel is a Hastings rifled, mounted on my 870 Remington. I put the two opw's in the shot cup to keep the base of the cup from pushing into the hollow base of the slug. I will load some up without the opw, and try them.
Jack

[hubel458]

Please try slower powder. We used up to 90 gr of 4759
with 730 gr slug and it lab tested safe at 12ga magnum pressures.

Does the seal on the bottom look ok, IE in good shape.

Also if you read our sabot testing with barrels like some of the Hastings
they may be tight fit as some Hasting made in EU are .005" smaller than
the NEFs and Savage in 12 ga. That may be a factor. They solved
things with slower powder.Ed

[littlejack]

I checked the fit of the CD 18 wad in the hull when I first received the wads. I split one hull down the center and removed half of it to reveal the wad seal to the inner wall fit. The fit looked perfect to me.
The seals look good after firing. I forgot to reply on the crimp. It is a 6 point fold.
I think I may have some 4759 powder. I will check tomorrow. I don't know if I can get enough in the hull, and still be able to crimp the end.
You mentioned the crush part of the wad getting "cocked" upon firing.
Maybe one could cut off the seal section and seat it on the powder charge. Then, use a fiber wad to take up the space of the cushion part of the wad. Then, use the cup part (minus the cushion) to set the slug in for spin in the barrel. That would get rid of the boolit being tipped when leaving the muzzle. Everything would be pushing on flat surfaces.
I have the fiber wads. I will load some rounds up as I described, and give them a whirl.
Oh yea, I slugged my barrel when I received it, and it mics at .727
Thanks for the help ED.
Jack

[hubel458]

If you cut stuff off the bottom of wadcup, you might discard it, and
just use another seal like X12X or BPGS and 1/4" felt wad.
Fill with good load of 4759, start at 70 gr, and compress
hard down on the felt. In stop frame pictures in 12ga FH
thread those white felt wads compress perfectly straight.
And sabot is headed perfectly downrange.Ed

[littlejack]

Thank you for the information Ed. I will do some more testing in the near future.
I will give another range report, after I have tested.
Thanks again and regards
Jack

[littlejack]

Ed:
I looked in my powder cabinet, and I had no 4759 powder. I did have some AA 5744, that I had loaded some cast boolit rounds in rifle loads.
I have loaded my next test loads with the BlueDot powder, but I have switched to stacked wads rather than the HCD 18 previously used. I used the seal and cup from the wad, and added a 3/8" fiber wad in place of the cushion section. The height of the stacked seal,fiber filler, cup and .070 nitro in the cup match the height of the original HCD 18 height.
Now I just need some dry weather to go try them out.
If they look promising, I will buy some seals from BPI, and a can of 4759 powder if I can find it.
Jack

[littlejack]

Well, I am deeply disappointed.
I went to the range this morning. I had loaded up 10 of these brutes with the .69 caliber musket bullet, to fire for effect. These were the stacked wad loads, as was stated in my post #8 above.
Now, before I talk about the accuracy, let me say a little about the "felt recoil". It was stiff-----very stiff. It did feel to me, to be more recoil than the loads I fired with the HCD 18 wad. I do not believe I will have to exfoliate my upper torso for a few days.
The loose skin particles (and some that were NOT loose) have been left on the shooting bench. ---------------That is all I have to say about that.--------------
I fired at 25 yards first, to check for impact. The first two slugs hit 10" apart, but did hit the paper.
I then stretched it out to 50 yards. With the first three shots, there were no holes in the paper. This is shooting with a scope.
I couldn't tell where they were going. I picked out a stick at about 75 yards on a dirt bank, and shot all around it. Approximately a 5' group. Yes, I said "five feet".
I may try paper patching some of the slugs to bore diameter as cpileri suggested. The wad I found, DID have a slight dimple in the base of the cup. The fiber filler did also have the dimple on one side, and the tit that dimpled the base of the cup. I did not find the nitro under the slug wad.
I do believe that the pressure of these loads (stacked wads) was higher (more recoil), than the previous loads with the HCD 18 wad. There was light flattening of the primers, but no ejector marks.
I will do another update when I get some more loads put together.
Regards
Jack

[cpileri]

Sorry your loads didnt work out. Look on the bright side; you now know what doesn't work. Seriously.
Anyway, cool if you paper patch; i am reeeally interested if that works.
At the rate i'm going, you will certainly test it out before i do.

Although, i do need to ramp it up a bit. Ajay is getting frustrated with so few testers and deer season is coming.

C-

[littlejack]

C, I may as well keep on testing until I have no options left. Then I can just go ahead and load the Lyman slugs that I know will work.
Jack

[OnHoPr]

Littlejack have you ever thought of using a lead sled for that type of testing. It is unnecessary for that type of recoil just for testing trying to get accuracy. On game you won't notice the recoil but on the range you will. Is that hastings barrel rifled or smooth and are shotcups staying in fair shape? In my particular gun a few different powder seals have caused inaccuracies also. I have had problems with certain shotcups that were not concentric in petal thickness too.

[littlejack]

OnHoPr:
Yes, the barrel is rifled. The wads, and dissected wads to utilize there cups, seem to be doing very good. There is no burn-by of the powder on the seal section. The fit of the seal in the nitro case, is as perfect as one can get. The rifling impression look very good, and the petals are intact. This slug/wad combination is a little big for the bore (.727 groove), but everything stays intact when fired. Nothing is pinched in two.
After doing some cyphering, I believe there will be too many wraps to paper patch this slug. It drops at .688, and to get it to .730 is more paper than I care put on this slug.
I will try dropping the powder charge on the stacked wad combination, and see if it has any effect on the accuracy.
I suppose, there was a reason that this type of slug was NOT used in shotshell slug loads.
But it was a learning experience, interesting and I enjoyed it.
Jack

[longbow]

Yeah. paper patching from 0.688" to 0.727" is a bit much I think.

I paper patched Lyman Foster slugs from as cast 0.705" to bore diameter of about 0.729" (smoothbore) and had to use a thick brown paper or it just took too many wraps. Accuracy did improve bunches but I got frequent fliers so gave up on that. My suspicion is that either the rough hull interior or opening the crimp was damaging the patch.

Have you recovered any slugs? I found that the Lyman Foster slugs were slugging up unevenly if unpatched and the skirt was distorting badly. Just wondering if your Minies are suffering from skirt collapse. If so, you might try turning the hollow base pin down to make a thicker skirt. I found I had to go about 1/8" thick or better using ACWW or the skirts would collapse/bell/distort depending on the slug.

In fact most hollow base slugs I have recovered both shot by me and others have badly distorted skirts. They may give reasonable accuracy but they are certainly distorted and that applies to home cast as well as factory rounds. I have lots of recovered slugs to prove it.

Oven heat treating wheelweights also solved collapse for my slugs if skirts were a bit thin.

If you have the mould you might try casting some of wheelweights then heat treat and retest. If they fit a rifled bore well then they should shoot well unless they are suffering form skirt collapse or they are just too long for the rifling twist to stabilize.

Longbow

[Greg5278]

I tried those slugs years ago, and it wasn't worth the trouble. You best bet, and not an easy one is to use a sleeve around the Slug made from 16ga plastic hulls. You will have to Mic a few brands to see which brand will fit the bore. I used older Federal Purple ones, and seem to recall that I could get 2 sleeves per cut Hull. You can also use some PSB buffer in the Hb of the Slug. Those changes shoud get you to under 3-4" at 50 yards. I would just buy the copy of my Slug Mold, as made by Tom at Accurate Molds. A Member here had it cut after trying ones I cast. It has been an easy one to get to shoot with under 1" groups at 50 Yards possible. Years ago a LE Sniper shooting my loads at 100 yards with a Tarhunt bolt Gun was firing groups of about 1" with the worst groups being 1 3/4" at 100 with a fast 880Grain slug.
Greg

[Hogtamer]

Greg, how about a pic and more info on that slug you cast!

[littlejack]

Longbow, I recovered some of these slugs that my brother and I shot into seasoned fir fire wood. The skirts were fine. I do not believe that the skirts would collapse shooting them in a wad/sabot. If shooting a bore size slug with smokeless powder would be a different story.
BUT, if a person had a bore size slug of .730, and stoked the boiler with black powder, that may shoot real well?????????

Greg, I do not understand what a sleeve from a shotshell case would do better than my wad cup of proper size. Both are of plastic, and are used to perform the same purpose (shim away the side to side gap) of my undersize slug.
1. What size are your slugs from your mold by Accurate Molds?
2. Would you be willing to sell me some of your slugs to try out?
Regards
Jack

[Greg5278]

My slugs are cast from Molds made by Mountain Molds. I do have plenty of other custom molds too, I forget how many 12ga molds I actually have. I can try and help with getting you some Samples.

The reason I mentioned the shotgun hull sleeve is that has parallel surfaces. Most wads have tapered petals that can cant the slug in the forcing cone. Over the last few Years, more wads with even petal thicknesses hev been availble. I have been using the CSD series wads for some of my undersize slug designs in the .660" diameter range. I usually knurl the slug OD with 2 Files to retain the slug in the wad until it goes through the Target.

My Truncated slug design from MM weghs 770 grains with Lube. It has a .500" diameter Metplat and casts well in Wheelweight with 2% Tin.
I can be Heat treated for additional penetration. I have recoved some from seasoned hardwood trees that squated slightly, but didn't have any expansion. For extreme penentartion my 1043gr TC slug was tested at the Linebaugh Seminar. It went through 49" of wetpack, and 42" of wetpack after hitting a Beef Femur.
Greg

[cpileri]

I can highly recommend Greg and his slugs!
Check out all my "Test" pages for results w his slugs (more to come soon, i hope).
C-

[cpileri]

Greg asked me to post some pics of his wares on this thread.
I will do what I can from here tonight, and post links if i can; then tomorrow i will line up a bunch of them and post a nice pic.
Only pic i can do from where I am, the 1043gr slug (link below if pic doesnt work out):


Here is a link, reply number 6 in the thread, to a lubed and rolled in hexagonal boron nitride 1043gr Greg slug:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?214295-Can-you-get-in-troubel-over-patching&p=2405618&viewfull=1#post2405618

[cpileri]

its hard to see, but this 1043gr slug is hardcast lead, truncated cone w a .50" meplat and a solid base. 3 lube grooves.

C-

[cpileri]

Here is one of Greg's 880gr Truncated cone, not sure of the meplat dimensions. 3 lube grooves much deeper than the 1043's, and still a flat base. its the one in the foreground, ahead of a bunch of factory THUG slugs from BPI:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?214113-The-science-(or-lack-thereof)-of-wad-column-building&p=2408218&viewfull=1#post2408218


C-

[Hogtamer]

Carl, did you ever test those thug slugs???

[cpileri]

They are loaded and ready for the next range trip, and i plan to post up one of my picture-heavy test threads afterwards.
C-

[cpileri]

OK, here is the line up of Greg's slugs which he asked me to post:

83897
Left to right, back to front:
First one (back left) is .730" 575gr lead slug shown lubed and hollow base visible on the one laying on its side, then .737' 605gr shown w hollow base, next .739" 760gr lead (flat base), then .739" 775gr lead, then .730" 880gr lead, last in back is 1043gr lead. front row is (left) 595gr lead 16ga slug in csd wad w card fillers in wadcup- weighs 670gr w attached wadding), middle is .730" 770gr copper turned slug, and on right front is .60" hardcast round ball weighing in at ~313gr.

C-

[cpileri]

Here is a close up of the slugs more to the weight you are wanting:
83898

they are labeled, but just in case of image mess-up: the .739" (i.e. unsized, Greg makes them as cast, or sizes them to .730 or .727, i believe) 760gr, the .739" 775gr, and the .730" 880gr; annd in front the copper .730 770gr.

In the post above this one, I wiped all the lube off the 1043gr so you can get a better look at it.

C-