Is there a way to soften roundballs?

[Saint]

I am new to the board and have found great amounts of information so far but I need to know if there is a way to soften a mostly lead alloy. I picked this stuff up from my local gun shop and was told it is pure lead but when i tried to load in my c&b revolver i nearly had to stand on the loading lever. I live in an area where it is nearly impossible to get pure lead and I have an almost non existent budget. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[imashooter2]

Did you air cool the castings or did you water drop them?

[Buckshot]

...............If they weren't heat treated to begin with (and I can't see WHY anyone would) I doubt you're dealing with anything more then the normal hardness the constituent parts of the alloy cause. In other words for a WW alloy you have lead, antimoney and tin in that order of 'parts' of the alloy, melted and then cast you get say, an 11 BHN.

If perhaps in cooling in a mould it added some temper to the alloy, it would have been close to nothing at all. Maybe if you were to heat them just short of melting in an oven, and held it there for an hour then slowly lowered the temp over another hour (or two), and let them cool inside the oven for however long that took, you might see a tiny drop in hardness. I doubt it would be worthwhile. You would not be able to soften them below the natural hardness of the 3 alloyed parts.

Let your shooting buddys know you're in the market for pure lead. Put up a notice on the range bulliten board if there is one. If word gets around you're afflicted with the cast boolit illness you may find a few folks out there closeby who can help.

...................Buckshot

[Ohio Rusty]

Pure lead round ball are really what you need. I would also check with the plumbing shops in your area to see if they have pulled any lead pipe from houses that you can have. The phone company had phone lines with lead sheaths that is pure lead if you can find some of that. Also roofers used lead sheets called flashing that you might find by asking some of the roofing companies. They might even have some they stripped off a house. Those are a few more available sources for pure lead. There was a post a while back about annealing lead softer by putting the lead bullets in the oven and heating them and letting them cool on their own. That helps to take a bit of the hardness out of the metal. The best bet with alloys is yo use them for smokeless powder boolets and use pure lead for the muzzleloading hobby.
Ohio Rusty

[Ricochet]

What I would try to soften up those balls for use: Put them in a tray in the oven and heat it up to 450-475 F. A half hour or so after the oven reaches full preheat temp with the balls in it, turn off the oven and let it cool down slowly with the bullets inside. Don't take them out till you can do it bare handed.

[45 2.1]

What I would try to soften up those balls for use: Put them in a tray in the oven and heat it up to 450-475 F. A half hour or so after the oven reaches full preheat temp with the balls in it, turn off the oven and let it cool down slowly with the bullets inside. Don't take them out till you can do it bare handed.

The above method will get you dead soft round balls. Be aware though that the balls will return to previous hardness in about a week. You have about 2 to 3 days where they are usable like this. After you anneal a batch, once cool, put them immediately in the freezer. This will keep them annealed. Once you take some out, use them up. Anytime outside of the freezer will start the hardening process again.

[Trez Hensley]

Saint,
Where are you located? One of the recycling centers may have what you need. There is one in Portland OR that has 200# of sheet lead for 70c/lb or at least they did last week.

[Ricochet]

Haven't seen a bumper sticker lately saying "Muzzle Loaders Like to Have Dead Soft Round Balls." Wonder why?

[mooman76]

If they are pure lead like you were told, they should scratch easily with your finger nail. Are they the correct size for your gun? If you haven't done the C&B revolver before it does take quite a bit of force even with soft lead.

[testhop]

I am new to the board and have found great amounts of information so far but I need to know if there is a way to soften a mostly lead alloy. I picked this stuff up from my local gun shop and was told it is pure lead but when i tried to load in my c&b revolver i nearly had to stand on the loading lever. I live in an area where it is nearly impossible to get pure lead and I have an almost non existent budget. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

have you checked your mould it coull be over sized'
and anouther thing you know that you have to use a good bit of pressure to seat the slugs in a cap and ball

[montana_charlie]

this stuff up from my local gun shop and was told it is pure lead but when i tried to load in my c&b revolver i nearly had to stand on the loading lever.
You didn't actually say if you 'picked up' round balls, or lead alloy.
If you bought balls, take them back to the shop and tell him they are too hard.
If you bought alloy, you need to get some 'soft' stuff to add to it.

You can find lead sheathing and lead pipe at salvage yards...and sometimes on eBay.

So which is it you have?

CM

[Saint]

Hey guys thanks for all of the replies. I have been shooting the revolver for about a year now and previously I have purchased Hornaday or Speer roundballs and these load fine but finding the right size as well as a decent price can be next to impossible. Furthermore I prefer casting my own because at least to a point it kind of gets me back to the history of muzzleloading which makes people think I am crazy at my age. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah and for some reason, as big as this city is, pure lead is really hard to find. Today I went back to the shop that sold me the lead and found that although it is mostly pure they apparently salvage their own lead and a good portion of it is still WW. The mould I am using is a Lyman .454 which is the same caliber I have shot from the beginning. I don't water drop for any of my guns as all I own is 5 muzzleloaders and a Glock 9mm that I still have 5,000 rounds of ammo for that the original owner GAVE me with the gun. I took a small metal pipe and slipped it over the loading lever and put about 50 rds. down range today and it shot fine but I worry about bending my loading lever. Thanks again guys. P.S. anyone know of a good pure lead supplier here in Salt Lake. I don't do mail or internet order anymore as I have had a very bad experience that still keeps me from getting loans.

[waksupi]

I beleive my old C&B revolvers shot .451 balls.

[imashooter2]

My cap n ball .44 takes .451 balls as well.

[Pat I.]

Don't know much about cap and ball guns but would it be possible to run the balls through a .451 or .452 Lee sizer? I've run 36 caliber round balls through a .366 die I made for my Makarov and it worked, should be about the same thing I'd think.

[Ricochet]

The problem then is getting the partially cylindrical balls aligned with the chambers, and it doesn't solve the problem of shaving off lead from the longer bearing surfaces.

My cap & ball Walker replica shoots best with bigger balls, but they get hard to shave off past .454". (The chambers are .440".) Wheelweight balls are too hard to seat. Same with the Lee 452-160-RF I use in it; they need to be soft and are easiest to use unlubed, with lube over them like balls.

[44man]

Everyone talks about softening or hardening pure lead! :confused: You CAN'T do it. That lead has antimony in it, plain and simple.
Yes you can use harder lead in the C&B but the balls must be throat size or very slightly over or the lever will break or bend.
Everyone says WW's work in any muzzle loader too. I don't give a rats ---, you can't fit the ball and patch to the barrel properly for top accuracy.
Pure lead is the only way.
Show me groups with hard lead and patches with all the blow by, cut patches or burned patches. All I hear is talk, no proof. Better yet, come and show me how it works.

[floodgate]

Ricochet:

Those .440" chambers in the Walker replicas are intriguing! I ran into that with a pair with two-digit serials)ordered back in the '60's when they were first brought in by Replica Arms Co. in El Paso (later absorbed by Navy Arms). The Italian manufacturer (early Uberti???) copied them directly from a loaned original. When Colt started to have their replicas made, they ran into the same issue of sub-bore-diameter chambers; they checked a number of early original Walkers, Dragons, Wells Fargo .31's and the first Navies, and they were ALL made that way! My original and replica Remingtons, Starrs and the later Colts were more reasonable, and ranged from .451" to .457".

Those Walker replicas shot with .440" balls gave new meaning the the term "flying ashtray"; maybe "flying hockey puck" would be more appropriate! I, too have broken loading levers, both Colt and Remington originals, with too-hard balls. Fortunately, that was back when Bannermans, Dixie and Numrich had lots of "New Old Stock" parts.

For the amount most of us shoot with ML's, pure lead is not too expensive, even at Midway prices

Ah, the good old days....

floodgate

[Old Ironsights]

Saint: Make good friends with ALL of the X-Ray techs you can find.

Make sure they tell you when their Xray rooms are getting revamped &/or hospital/dental labs getting torn out.

Make sure you find out who is doing the demo then finangle a way to aquire the Xray Room lead sheeting.

One way to do this is to tell them you will do "heavy metal/hazardous waste disposal" for no cost.

Best lead around.

Another tactic: I know that Lead ishighly valued by Boaters in Salt Lake. Danged boats can't function without 3-4 tonnes of lead in the keel.

See if you can't scrounge a hundredweight or two from a boat salvage yard.

Go to it man. ;)

[waksupi]

I've been shooting WW's in ML rifles for over 30 years, and don't get cut patches or burned patches. And still have won my share of shooting matches over the years, along with lots of others shooting them. I've even got some of those wallet groups I used to carry around. Just because you can't do it, don't think it can't be done.

[mooman76]

If you can find a shop that does the Stained glass window and being Salt Lick you should be able to. The lead they use is soft lead and they should have scraps or old lead from replaced windows. There are also a few BP clubs there and if you contact one you may be able to buy some from them.

[Saint]

When I actually started shooting this pistol I had been using .451 however I found that it did not seem to get enough contact with the rifling to keep it from leading. I went up to .454 and there was almost no difference in the loading characteristics but the bore stopped leading and my groups at 50 yard closed in by a little over an inch. I have been using the same lead for months in my rifles and its working just fine but I prefer to shoot my pistols just because a guy on a motorcyle with a rifle strapped to his back is kind of a cop magnet however my pistol case fit in my saddlebags perfectly. I guess I am gonna have to get back in touch with the Mountain Men of the Wasatch and see if they can hook me up because this stuff is only gonna work for patched balls. Problem here in Utah is people are hoarding lead. May have to bite the bullet, no pun intended, and buy some online. Thanks again everyone.

Also, i got a really weird P.M. that I won't go into but I just want to say the fact that I live in Salt Lake City has nothing to do with my screen name, it is just a movie I really like.

[Trez Hensley]

Saint,
Send me your address and I can send you 20-30lbs of lead I've salvaged/smelted from roof flashings. Talk to the local roofers (call down the list) and ask them to save any they pull off when replacing roofs. I have a few hundred pounds that I got this way.

I'm still in collect mode. Casting will start soon I hope. Still haven't done it. I have a friend with a Magma Master Caster that he is going to trade to me. He tells me he bought it many years ago and only used it a few times, sweet! When it all comes together I'll be set with plenty of lead I've been collecting and smelting. It's been fun so far. I also have a couple hundred pounds of smelted indoor range scrap (check the indoor ranges in the area) it is pretty soft stuff (mostly 22 LR and jacketed lead cores).

Maybe someone can chime in and let me know which of these two would be better for the BP stuff, so I can send him the best stuff for his purpose. So far I don't have any BP guns so I will be alloying this lead (at some point) to make it harder.

Unless someone wants to trade a bunch of it for linotype or 50/50, 95/5, heck even clean WW ingots. You pay shipping, I'm not picky, (tongue in cheek)..........

trezandjolie@yahoo.com

[mooman76]

The lead you collect from roofing would be the best. It is the softest and near pure. 22's and range scrap may be soft but it will still have some other metals in it to harden and can be used also but dead soft os the best!

[mauser1959]

Contact your local roofers. lots of free lead for the taking , as long as they see a carrot after a certain amount; ie a 12 of beer of something. I know that I have way to much solft lead and not enough WWs. I guess that it just depends on where your at , and what you need. One other thing to look to is the old plumbers as they can no longer use lead for soldier and lots of them used to collect it for big jobs. One of my friends gave me over a 100lbs because they could no longer use it and in fact they did not even want it in the shop anymore taking up space.

[44man]

I know, me and you will forever argue about it. :mrgreen: It will work with shallow rifling. Not so with the proper .010" deep rifling. You need a small ball and a super thick patch and are depending on cloth to engrave the ball and keep the rifling. How can you engrave hard lead with cloth?????
If you have one of those funny guns with .004" rifling, it can be made to work.

[44man]

Here are two properly engraved balls. The left one is a .535 ball with a .020" patch (Not compressed, .0125" compressed.) and the right one is a .540 ball and a .012" patch. If you look close you can see the cloth weave engraved FROM THE BOTTOMS OF THE GROOVES. Either one of these will put 5 shots in one ragged hole at 50 yd's.
The bore of this rifle is .540, groove to groove is .560".

[mooman76]

Here are two properly engraved balls. The left one is a .535 ball with a .020" patch (Not compressed, .0125" compressed.) and the right one is a .540 ball and a .012" patch. If you look close you can see the cloth weave engraved FROM THE BOTTOMS OF THE GROOVES. Either one of these will put 5 shots in one ragged hole at 50 yd's.
The bore of this rifle is .540, groove to groove is .560".


I thought we were talking about a C&B revolver?

[44man]

Sorry, I answered that but it got off topic when Waksupi jumped on me again. I can't help but respond as it has been a long ongoing debate. I can't say he is wrong with the gun he might have but 99 out of 100 times, it is wrong. It is also wrong to use hard balls in the cap and ball unless the ball is downsized.
Plain and simple, soft lead works better. I, for one, will never recommend hard lead in any muzzle loader.

[mooman76]

44man
I agree soft lead is best but not always available to some folks. WW's will work in a pinch if soft lead is unavailable. I happened to get lucky and aquired a few hundred pounds a couple years ago so I have been remelting old for new!