220V Electrical Outlet Question

[Beau Cassidy]

Help this 'ol boy out. I have a 220V 15 amp planer with a 3-wire cord. That is how it came from the factory. I don't have 220 in my garage so I am depending on my 15KW generator which has an L14-30 outlet. The instructions call for a 4-wire cord to be hooked up to the receptical. Last night for the first time I connected the 3-wire cord to the recepticle and plugged it into the running generator. The planer tried to come on but the magnet switch(?) would not completely turn it on. I could feel the electrical hum in the starter box. Any questions on what I need to do?

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20130924_195901_zpsc3477eff.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20130924_195901_zpsc3477eff.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20130924_195925_zpsd4b88d71.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20130924_195925_zpsd4b88d71.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20130924_195931_zps969dc4cd.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20130924_195931_zps969dc4cd.jpg.html)

The planer in question...
http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20130923_205000_zps75dac850.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20130923_205000_zps75dac850.jpg.html)

[Zymurgy50]

How did you wire the plug?
The ground (green wire) is the odd shaped one the 2 brass spuds should be the 2 110v legs, and the silver spud should be neutral.
open the panel on the generator and check to be sure.

[DCM]

First thing, do you have your black and white wires hooked to the plug terminals that are Not the hooked or silver ones? The hook should be the ground and the silver one should be the neutral.
Next question is what size motor is on the planer, starting current may be an issue but the 15KW genset should handle a fairly large motor.

[Beau Cassidy]

Hooking up the wire I went green wire to green screw, black wire to brass screw, and white wire to silver screw. I don't recall a place to put a 4th wire but then again I wasn't looking. The planer motor is a 3 HP. The generator motor is 30 HP. It is a new generator and I have never been inside of it.

[454PB]

I agree with DCM. Since you're using 3 wires (no neutral), leave the silver blade empty. Connect the ground wire to the blade with the locking hook and the two hot leads to the remaining blades. 15 KW is way more than enough to run a 15 amp planer.

[Dean D.]

Your 3 wire cord is designed for 110v applications, you really should buy some 4 wire cord. 4 wire cord will have one each; red, black, white and green wire. Red is a phase (110v hot leg), Black is a phase, White is the neutral and Green is your case ground. You can bubba wire it with a 3 wire cord but it's not really a good thing to do. JMHO.

[StratsMan]

<<Full Disclosure: I'm not an electrictian, but I have wired up a couple of motors>>

Holy Smokes!!! Not only do you need to wire the plug correctly, but it needs to match what's at the other end: the motor!! If you truly have a 220v, single phase motor (sounds reasonable) then how are the wires connected at that end??? Right now, you're only powering one leg of the 220 volts, so your motor is trying to start on 110 volts. Not gonna get far... but if it you're using green, black and silver at the motor, then rewire only the plug, you'll have a mess in your motor 'cuz you'll hook a hot wire directly to the neutral...

Bottom line: make 'em match before you plug it in.... best bet is to get a 4-conductor wire, as recommended earlier....

[Beau Cassidy]

Trust me. It's 220 and I took it out of the shipping crate. It's new as new can be...

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/DSC03646_zpsf0e7fea1.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/DSC03646_zpsf0e7fea1.jpg.html)

[Beau Cassidy]

I am a little skittish about not hooking up a neutral. I think I might have to go buy some 4-wire cord. I wonder why it came this way?

[Uncle Jim]

Your ground is also your neutral.

[TreeKiller]

Lets see the end of the wire that comes from the plainer before you put the plug on.

[turmech]

Your 220v appliance does not need a neutral. Your generator receptacles have the capability to provide 2 110v legs (which when used together gives you 220v) and a neutral. This is so the generator could power applications which needed a neutral (like a panel box). Ignore the colors on the planner plug as they are not relay relevant in your case. When you have 3 conductors as your planner plug has you will have white, black, and green. Treat the white as it was red and hook it to the other 110 leg of the plug. Even if you switch your planner plug to a 4 wire cord you will have no place at the planner to connect the neutral wire.

Reading through the thread it would appear that the way the plug got wired initially would have attempted to run the planner on 110v. This most likely did not damage it but it could have.

[smoked turkey]

I'll take a stab at this question. It sounds like your planer has no 110 (120 VAC actually) requirements. It is set up for two hot legs and a ground. This is like electric stoves and dryers used to be configured with a three wire cord. Now most of that equipment requires a neutral or 120 volts. Probably timers, clocks, etc. So now we use four wire cords/plugs for the newer stuff. Back to your planer, I agree with the post that you could leave off the neutral since your equipment does not require it. I would wire the green wire on the green screw and the other two wires on the two brass line screws. Nothing goes on the neutral plug screw. Your gen set should be plenty adequate for your planer, but starting a motor such as yours has a locked rotor (starting current) of possibly four times running current. In this case 60 amps. You can check this out on machine info. I did not see it on the name plate in your photo. Just look for LRA current and you will see what I am talking about. This is not small draw on your generator. If it doesn't spool right up when you hit the start button, then its too much for the generator and not good on your motor and I wouldn't do it. I recommend rewiring your shop for your larger equipment. You need it in the long run for other tools that you either have now or will have such as table saw. band saw, etc.

[popper]

Yes, wire it to the house power correctly before you burn out the planer and generator.

[turmech]

Well, just seen I said PLANNER about 3 or 4 times. Sorry guys

[lylejb]

here's the diagram for l14-3082739

In your case, the white wire on your cord should be used as your second black wire. you don't have a neutral, so don't connect anything to the neutral lug (silver on your plug)

.
If you connected the wires by color (black to black, white to white) like you would think it should be, you are feeding 110v, not 220v to your motor.

The real problem here is your cord is color coded like a 110v cord.

I learned this the hard way when wiring my 5hp 220v air compressor. It also had the 110 v colored cord.

[Beau Cassidy]

10-4. I will take apart this evening and reconfigure the plug. I hook I up as per the directions with the plug.

[Lloyd Smale]

as was said you dont need a neutral with 220. Two hots and a ground.

[oneokie]

I am a little skittish about not hooking up a neutral. I think I might have to go buy some 4-wire cord. I wonder why it came this way?

Because it was intended to be connected to a 3 prong plug and used with a 3 conductor recepticle in a building.
(think AC recepticle)

[gwpercle]

Call a "real" electrician , have him come to your house and install a properly grounded 220 volt receptacle in your garage for the planer. The receptacle has to match plug, no jury rigging will make it work safely. No worries about grounds, the planer will run correctly, you won't have to worry about shocking yourself or burning costly fuel in the generator. You will also have a properly fused breaker in your panel to avoid the house burning down thing. Wire size needs to be correct for the amps too.
Gary

[Beau Cassidy]

I understand the need to wire the house for 220. Unfortunately I dont own the house and the breaker box is in the basement. The planer will see limited use until I buy a house

[Dale in Louisiana]

Quite a bit of overseas-made equipment is built to the European power system where the standard voltage is 220. In their systems, control components are also 220 and are wired between the two live conductors. For you technical types, they get this from a 3-phase, 220/380 volt system.

American specifications will often use 230 for the power (like a clothes dryer: The heating element is 230, the controls and drive motor are 110), but will tap voltage from one leg to neutral (115 volts) for control components.

That's why your plug only had three wires. To make it work with the American system, you need the tow hots and the ground. The neutral has no function in that situation and is not needed. If you wired to another NEMA four-prong plug, you'd use green to ground and the other two wires would go to the brass 'hot' terminals.

dale in Louisiana

[Beau Cassidy]

Well I got rid of the silver prong and went green and brass/brass. The planer fired right up. It was a good feeling to see it go. I appreciate everyone's help. I was convinced the generator had a problem. Unfortunately I live in a house that I don't own and running 220 is not an option right now but it for sure will be when/if I ever buy another place. The planer will certainly not see much use right now.

[DCM]

Your ground is also your neutral.
No it is Not.
That would violate NEC 250.6 & 250.25(A)(5)

Edit: The use of the ground as a neutral is a very dangerous practice as it raises the safety ground above zero potential & places current on the ground, but who cares if it kills the person that has to work on it anyways?!!

Sadly NEC 250.140 exception still allows it in very limited applications, that do not come anywhere near the O.P.s question.

[DCM]

The use of the white as a hot conductor is allowed by the NEC and is standard practice in many residential, commercial & industrial applications.
NEC article 200.7(C)(3)

[frankenfab]

If you happen to have 2 different 110 circuits in the basement that are from different sides of the breaker box (right and left) you can make a junction box with a 230v plug and run a cord from there to each different 110 volt outlet and get 230 for your planer. That is providing that you don't exceed the current limit of either 110v circuit or the wires.

Probably not to code or some such, but I would do it for a a temporary means. Not advising anyone else to do so.

[Beau Cassidy]

No it is Not.

Well thanks for bringing that up. I didn't think ground was neutral but 1- I am not an electrician and 2- I don't claim to be so I don't have a dog in that fight. To me, neutral would indicate it as part of the "active" circuit and ground not so much so. I guess that is the way to put it.

Sadly the garage only has one outlet in it. I will probably go get a 4 wire cord to put on the planer to be on the safe side when using the generator.

[Catshooter]

Beau,

You're asking a very technical question in a very technical field. Not saying that you can't understand the answer; I'm sure you can.

However, this is a gun board. There are lots of electrical boards that you could get intelligent help from.

The question you've asked is equivalent to I'm loading my 300 Win Mag and the book says 87 grains. Since all I have is Red Dot I can just reduce that back 10% and be good, right?

This is a gun board and the proof is in the big majority of the answers posted. There's about five or six that are good, the rest vary from very risky to very dangerous.

If I understood your last post you got the motor running with just two wires, correct? If so, that will work for the motor but you've no grounding path. You can very easily be that path which I promise you will give you no pleasure.

If you don't have an electrician friend, go find one who will fix it up right for a rack of beer. Or at least go online and educate yourself until you know what to do.

It's not just your life you're toying with. What if after the planer kills you, your wife/daughter/son/whoever comes along and grabs you to see what's the matter with you?

This is 34 years of commercial/industrial electrical experience speaking to you here.

I hate electrical questions on this wonderful board. There's always a handful of irresponsible fools who say 'Well I'm not an electrician, but . . . " I know they do it out of a spirit of helpfulness but people can die from electrical mistakes. Eighty grains of Red Dot will give you a good chance of getting killed too, it's the same thing. It's a highly technical answer, and the answer matters!!


Cat

[smoked turkey]

Just let me speak to the above post that seems to indicate that the answers given here on electrical questions are from "irresponsible fools" who know nothing on the subject, that there are a number of very good answers to the initial post. From post #23 it appears that the question was answered in a satisfactory manner such that the equipment is up and running. I appreciate this site for its helpfulness to those of us who are interested in getting our questions answered. Questions on mechanic work, plumbing, cooking, medical concerns, gardening, etc, the list could go on and on. This makes this a very interesting site to frequent. And yes even some gun type questions, reloading, casting, and shooting questions are asked and answered by some folks who have more knowledge than people in the industry that get paid to answer technical questions. I am convinced that the people here have a similar knowledge base in virtually any area you can think of. I hope we don't limit our selves to gun only topics. Not trying to be contrary here, just stating how I feel on the subject of questions on non gun related things. Thanks for letting me speak my thoughts,

[waksupi]

Heck, I'd rather be killed by something hare brained from my buddies, than the government!

[Dale in Louisiana]

Industrial electricity since 1977, former field engineer and supervisor for a major electric utility. Senior technical guy for five states of an interstate gas pipeline, providing technical support for thirty compressor stations. I know a bit about electricity. I've also worked overseas, so I know a bit about European/Chinese electricity (in Chinese electricity, the current flows sideways...)

Since a lot of my technicians are not from electrical power backgrounds, I do a LOT of instructing on the subject. I also used to instruct at an industry trade school in my spare time.

So let's talk about this 'ground versus neutral' thing real quick.

The GROUND conductor is (should be) green, bare, or yellow with a green stripe. It NEVER is meant to carry current under normal circumstances. It is there to provide a low impedance (okay, you can say 'resistance' but that's a technical point) path for current to flow if something goes wrong. You've all heard 'electricity always takes the path of least resistance'? It doesn't. It takes ALL the paths, high resistance, low resistance, whatever. The ground conductor is there to make sure that MOST of the current doesn't flow though YOU.

The NEUTRAL conductor is (should be) white. It is grounded. If you measure resistance between the neutral conductor and the ground conductor, the measured resistance should be almost zero. The neutral conductor is made to carry current. If you break a neutral conductor while it's doing this, you're holding onto a HOT conductor with lethal voltage present. This little fact kills a lot of people who THINK they know what they're doing.

So how does this work? Let's take a simple 240/120 device found in most homes, the clothes dryer. Your dryer plug should have FOUR wires, a green ground, a white neutral, and usually a red and black, the two 'hot legs'. It's fed by a two-pole breaker in your breaker panel. between the two breakers, or the two hot legs, you'll read 240 volts. From either hot leg to neutral you'll read 120 volts. Since neutral is also grounded, between a hot and ground, you'll read 120 volts.

Inside the dryer, there are several devices. One of them, the heating element, is connected so it receives 240 volts, getting that from the two hot legs. The rest of the components are connected between a hot leg and the neutral, so they get 120 volts. when the dryer is running, let's say for sake of discussion that the heating element is drawing fifteen amps of current. That means that BOTH hot legs are seeing fifteen amps. Now, lets say that the controls and the motor draw five amps. That means that ONE hot leg sees an additional five amps.

This means that under normal operating conditions, one hot leg is drawing fifteen amps, one is drawing TWENTY amps, and the neutral is seeing five amps. The neutral is at ground potential, which means essentially zero volts to ground. However, if you cut the neutral, then that end of it that is no longer connected back to the power panel will see 120 volts to ground, sufficient to kill under the wrong circumstances. Also, when you do this, all the 120-volt components will stop working in properly designed equipment. In some equipment, they'll burn up instead.

What makes this fun is stuff from overseas, as per the original post. In order to make it operate in Europe where the system is 220 volts with NO neutral, then the control components are also 220 volts. In this case, there is no need for the neutral conductor, but the ground conductor MUST be in place for safety reasons.

dale in Louisiana

[Catshooter]

smoked,

If you read my post you'll see that I said there are some good answers in this thread. Dales, just above is an excellent example. He knows what he is talking about.

The post that states that the ground and neutral are one and the same is the reverse.

In post #23 the OP states that he got the motor going by dropping one conductor, maybe. It may appear to you that he is now safe and good to go, but you'd be making an assumption not based on facts.

It's not my intent to flame posters here trying to help. But this is one of probably three or four of such threads that I've seen, all with terrible advice. Along with good, no doubt. But which one is the OP going to take? If he knew what was right he wouldn't be asking.

So I'm sorry if you don't like my post. But I'll do it again regardless.

I do agree with you Waksupi! :)


Cat

[Catshooter]

Now that I think about it a post like Dale's is much smarter than mine. Took him quite a while to type all that.

I think that's what I'll strive for next time.


Cat

[Dean D.]

Now that I think about it a post like Dale's is much smarter than mine. Took him quite a while to type all that.

I think that's what I'll strive for next time.


Cat

I agree Cat. I too replied to this thread and wish I had taken the time to elaborate more but I had just finished a 12 hour shift and was tired.

My background is not as an Electrician but rather 30+ years as a Power Lineman so I am slightly familiar with electrical theory and application. However, as a Lineman I am not well versed in the NEC. I did not know it was legal under code to use the white conductor as a phase in this application. Personally I abhor that practice but heh, that's just my view. Too many people assume the white conductor is a neutral AND a ground. Like Dale says, that gets folks in trouble. While it may be legal, I will never use the white conductor as a phase, I'll spend the money on the proper wire so I don't leave what I feel is a trap for those less than knowledgable on the NEC. JMHO, YMMV