Cast testing with the Wolverine starts tomorrow

[MT Chambers]

Tom of Accurate molds sent me a beauty today, a 4 cav. .301"-80 grain flat point....the Daystate Wolverine .303 uses a .303" pellet but with out a leade cut in the barrel, cast bullet sizing is critical but the cast bullets miked .300" out of pure lead and were a good tight fit in the barrel and the bolt closed on them. Tomorrow I'll try them on paper, then I'll hollow base some, and then hollow pt. and hollow base others. With the std. 51 gr. pellet, shots on gophers have been successful to over 125yds, and I'm hoping that Tom's new pill will extend that range some. I also have some .301"-160gr spitzers to try as well, I'll report any successes here!!

[roachcreek]

Have you miked your barrel to get groove diameter?

Is that a choked barrel?

What is the velocity you will be shooting these bullets?

These questions should always be answered before even considering a mold. Choked air gun barrels do not shoot well, the choke needs to be removed if your Daystate has one.

Bullet diameter is critical to successful accuracy. Your bullet needs to be .001 over groove diameter for best accuracy, if your under groove diameter, which I suspect if you can chamber them without a lead, well....... good luck.

The problems is that unlike fire arms, air guns lack the power to bump up a solid projectile to groove diameter I have never been able to chamber a .001 over groove diameter bullet into a barrel with my thumbs, pushing it in with a hard object distorts the base and accuracy suffers. This is why us cast bullet shooters cut a lead for bullets with the needed over .001 groove diameter

I hope it turns out well for you because cast bullets give a air rifle a new dimension in accuracy at long range and power. But these issues I bring up are crucial for best accuracy, believe me I learned all this the hard way, through my open wallet. Read that I wasted a bit of cash on undersized and way oversized molds for a air gun barrel that had a too slow twist.

A good way to find out how heavy a bullet your air gun will shoot is to double or triple load pellets until you get to the weight your prospective bullet will be, in a 25 bore I use Kings, two of them equal a 51 grain bullet. Your not doing this for accuracy, just to chrony that mass of lead coming out the barrel. It is hard to get good accuracy in cast bullet air guns under 800 FPS, so unless your achieving that velocity again accuracy will suffer.

Having said this I don't think I would even consider putting enough pellets in that barrel to equal that 160 grain spitzer. In the end you still have to deal with twist rate, one of the many reasons air gun barrels do not work well with cast bullets being as they are far too slow in twist rate. A good example is the AirForce Condor 25 caliber factory LW barrel's twist rate of 1-16, I use either a 1-14 twist or a 1-10 for the really long and heavy bullets.

The TAG forum has a wealth of information on cast bullet shooting, you might want to visit the "Other Guns" section there, especially the .257 bullet guide, and although it deals with the 257 bore, the physical issues cover all bore sizes.

Nonetheless, good luck.

[MT Chambers]

Negatory, the Wolverine is a very nice hunting rifle, and will be used as such, accuracy is such that no changes to the barrel will be made, this rifle is a 1 holer out past 100yds. The cast bullets, if accurate enough, will provide a bit more knockdown and range on larger predators like our wolves and coyotes.

[roachcreek]

The thing is with pellet rifles is that you can have a cast bullet rifle or you can have a pellet rifle, but unless you have two barrels, one for each type of projectile, your not going to have both.

I full understand what the Wolverine is and it's quality. But quality alone does not make up for undersized slugs and a power plant that can't throw 160 grain spritzers fast enough to stabilize in that barrel.

With the 80 grain perhaps, but I think your still undersize in groove diameter if you can chamber them now.

From what I and others have learned about shooting cast bullets in air guns is the information I posted above about groove diameter and the fact that the bullet needs to be .001 over groove diameter.

Have you slugged the barrel? Does it have a choke?

Good Luck.

[MT Chambers]

I have many bullets/options to try including the Hollow base versions of each, have to put off shooting till tomorrow as I'm going duck and goose hunting this eve.

[roachcreek]

I am curious to how you will put a hollow base on them.

[Pakprotector]

I am curious to how you will put a hollow base on them.

Mee too, especially one hollow/thin enough for the air charge to spread enough of it out. How far are you turning it up? 100 FPE does not go so far on 90 grain boolits.
cheers,
Douglas

[MT Chambers]

Well the Wolverine proved itself again, .300" cast bullets grouping approx. 1/2" at 50 yds., slightly larger then Daystate Emperors, these are cast bullets shot " as cast" and almost went right through a saw blade that I had set up for shooting, the cast showed quite a bit more damage then the diabolo pellets at 50 yds. Next I'll take it out in the field and see the diff. in drop out to 150yds. or so. Swaging the hollow base and hollow point should bump the bullet dia. a bit, so I hope that it won't prove to be a negative. I have definitely found the perfect boolit for the predator hunting that I do, usually within or close to town limits, so I have to be very mobile and can't tether tank at all, 12 accurate shots are usually enough from the truck or out in the bush.
For those new to the game, I don't know how these would work in the slightly less powerful FX Boss or all the new .30 Bullpups, I'm also trying to find a good cast boolit for my .25 cal. as the 51 grain RN. that most are using doesn't group well, I'll have to hollow base that bullet as well. If anyone wants to try either the .30 or .25 cast boolits, I will gladly send them to folks to try. I'd like to see how cast boolits work (.25) in some of the better springers.
Specially milled Star dies (milled at the bottom) accept the Lyman nose punches, which are used in a special die (upside down) that is fully adjustable, forming a completely sealed swage die, and one of many diff. sized/tapered pointed Star punches(specially made) are used to form the hollow base and because of the adjustments, are completely consistent. Forming the hollowpoint is as easy, swap out the Lyman top punch for a flat punch and send bullet through die base first. This can be done for any boolit you make, any cal., pointed or otherwise, providing you are using a soft alloy like my current 30-1 mix.

[Pakprotector]

I also have some .301"-160gr spitzers to try as well, I'll report any successes here!!

Do please also recognize the level of integrity required to make experiments valuable and report any failures as well.
cheers,
Douglas

[roachcreek]

Pictures or it didn't happen, that is why I have utube video's of my 502, 552, 615 yard cola can shots and my shot on the 280 yard gong and enough picitures of 5 shot groups past 280 yards to put the terminally insomniac victims to sleep.

Shooting at a hole in a saw blade is not a through test of a undersized bullet in a bore, or any other kind of accuracy I now of. I usually do several 10 shot groups at extended range to test bullets in my cast bullet guns, extended meaning 260 yards or more. 10 shot groups while not nearly as pretty as three or 5 not to mentioned the fore mentioned hole in a saw blade, tell us truly what a rifle and bullet combination will do.

Chrony results would be nice also.

It is just not you and ego or pride, your going against what has worked for and not worked for everyone I know that has tried this cast bullet thing in air guns, including those who have tired different barrels on custom 30 caliber air rifles shooting the JSB and the Emperor pellets and reported about it on the Yellow forum.

I tried cast bullet in air gun barrels including a false start with .251 bullets in .255 barrels for two years, and at times I shot great groups, but never repeatable. Until I tried fire arms barrels on air guns I was just wasting money in a search for true accuracy.

So if your get others to do this and it fails, they have wasted a lot of money. That is a lot of responsibility.

[MT Chambers]

You have to stick with it and like most guns, you need the full range of sizers, if they are necessary, I was very lucky with the .300" mold, and bullets are a good fit(very tight).....tighter then any of my Shuetzen rifles that are all breach seated, in fact I'm thinking of making up a breech seating tool for hard to seat, soft cast boolits in my .25 and 30 cal. airgun.
Since my airguns are meant for hunting, the sawblade penetration test is very telling and has nothing to do with accuracy.......today the gun goes out with me hunting and I'll try some 100yd. + shots, also ring out my 50/90 Sharps in preparation for Elk and Moose hunting.
I'll post pics when I learn how, I was born when there were no computers and have absolutely no knowledge of them.

[bitterman]

MT Chambers,

Good luck with your en-devour. I am also going down the bullet shooting airgun with my .30 (.308) airgun shooting about 130+ FPE using 68 grain Me Hollow Points but have a lee 309-120 and Veral Smith 75 grain super flat point mold.

Bore and Grove diameters are very important for getting a gun to shoot. Also you said the castings were hard to seat... this means your barrel is not inlet correctly for the projectile you are shooting. I know I had this issue and SeanMP fixed me up!

Good luck with your molds would love to see pics!

This is my .308 airgun build by Mike aka Bluesdaddy

83231

Bruce

[MT Chambers]

THANKS, I've been casting for 40 years or more, and I have over 200 molds, and am determined to make the Wolverine work without changing the leade/throat, my 80gr. Accurate mold bullets are shooting very well with some flyers at 100yds., I have send samples to some folks and will wait until I hear their results, I won't post the results as there seems to be so much anger out there in airgun land.
In my shuetzen shooting experience, bullets that are hard to seat because they are not tapered are not any less accurate, just hard to seat!

[bitterman]

I wish you the best.

With airguns the inlet is critical... the wolverine is setup for the pellets... not a longer cast bullet. MY gun was setup that way also.. but its now fixed.

I don't think there is much anger.. so many good people just there to help! Casting for an airgun is definitely different than a powder burner... at least that is what I am learning....

Size of the projectile is also very critical... most guys are using from .0002 to .001 larger lead than the grove diameter. Custom sizing dies are often needed every .0002 or so to see what shoots the best. Small changes can be a big difference for groups at long distance if you are looking for sub MOA groups.

I got some lee .308 dies to open up myself as needed. I know .309 work not bad so know that is on the large size based on my grove diameter.

1/2" at 50 is a good start I bet you will get there very soon! Sounds like a good head start.

Bruce

[Pakprotector]

Accurate mold bullets are shooting very well with some flyers at 100yds., I have send samples to some folks and will wait until I hear their results, I won't post the results as there seems to be so much anger out there in airgun land.


Not anger, just scepticism born out of experience. I hate to tell you that your refusal to post ALL the results just adds to an already high level. Patiently awaiting the complete report.
cheers,
Douglas

[MT Chambers]

I repeat, any more results will be sent to folks that have contacted me for samples or information otherwise, as I said before, I have no knowledge of computers and don't even have a camera, I will answer any questions via PM, I will not answer to anyone driven by anger, egotism, or otherwise.....as far as I'm concerned this thread is closed, as I don't care about anyone's scepticism!

[Pakprotector]

Closed or not, I am just here to help. PM me your address and I'll send you a fine camera. Send it back with the pics and I'll have a look and see how that compares to what you are claiming. Do make sure to photograph this 'one holer past 100 yards' performance you mentioned...that must be some shooter indeed.
cheers,
Douglas

[MT Chambers]

You are not helping anyone here, your ego is in the way, if you take the time to read the threads you will see that the Wolverine mentioned produced the great groups at 100+ with the factory Emperor pellets and that is why I wouldn't consider altering the barrel, that may be for another gun, another time. I just wanted to get my cast bullets to group well and I have done that. I think that you are so full of yourself that you fail to even read what others have to say, so let's close this now so that I can go hunting and you can get back to being your own best fan.

[Pakprotector]

yep, I read the claims...saw no pix of emperor pellet groups or cast boolit groups...just a bunch of claims. Thanks for making them though. You blame my ego for wanting to see how closely your claims match reality...my goodness, but you sir are quite mistaken.
cheers,
Douglas

'believe none of what you hear and half of what you see'. I will equate reading stuff on the 'net with hearing for the time being. That there is nothing to see is easily fixed if you take me up on my offer. Don't worry, I won't be sending you the D600.

[melloairman]

You are not helping anyone here, your ego is in the way, if you take the time to read the threads you will see that the Wolverine mentioned produced the great groups at 100+ with the factory Emperor pellets and that is why I wouldn't consider altering the barrel, that may be for another gun, another time. I just wanted to get my cast bullets to group well and I have done that. I think that you are so full of yourself that you fail to even read what others have to say, so let's close this now so that I can go hunting and you can get back to being your own best fan.
I have been told as well that a choked barrel will not shoot cast bullets well with out removing the choke . But that was told to me by ones that refuse to alloy their lead . I have two LW air rifle barrels in 25 caliber that are choked . I use 10-12 bhn range lead for my casting for them . And have no leading problem at the choked portion of the barrel as I did when I used 5 bhn lead . Marvin

[MT Chambers]

Marvin: It is a diff. discipline but Steve Garbe, one of the best shooters out there using soft cast bullets, or semi-soft, in his shuetzen and bp rifles always talks about how much more accurate "choked" barrels are for him. Now I'm not in his league, and can't speak for him but if I understand him right, the pull through or patch gets tighter where his barrels narrow a bit, so I'll go with him and say that it's a good thing for cast bullet users.
Does the harder alloy cause any problem seating the bullet into the barrel?

[longbow]

Out of curiosity, why would a choke adversely affect accuracy? I can see it reducing velocity if fairly tight but I can't imagine they are more than a few thou restriction anyway. If the boolit is sized concentrically as it goes through the choke then it should leave the muzzle centered and flying true.

If rifling twist is too slow for a long boolit I understand that but why a choke would create inaccuracy baffles me.

So, educate a dumb old guy... what is the problem with a choke and boolit shooting?

What about round balls through a choked barrel?

I am thinking about one of the lower cost guns and want to cast for it is why I ask. I certainly won't be in Wolverine price ranges!

Longbow

[melloairman]

My 25 caliber Condor has a LW choked barrel with no lead cut in . But no bolt as well . The bullets are pressed into the barrel by hand . I use a tooth brush handle to press the bullets into the barrel . I have no problem as long as the bullets are no larger than groove diameter and the bhn is no more than 12 . 15 bhn and more effort than I like to use is needed . If a bolt action is used with no lead then a lot will depend on the tolerances of the bolt action and what it will take . My PB with the same barrel type with a poor quality bolt action will not take the bullet if it is much over land diameter . That is why at this time I size to land and allow the choke to do the sizing. But I have a idea to try when I get to it .
The reason that a choked barrel can cause accuracy problems is they will lead up after a very few shoots with pure lead or very soft lead . As well as shear the lead to the base of the bullet which will cause a accuracy issue .I eliminated both of those problems when I went to 8-12 bhn lead in my Condor . With the bullets still sized to groove at the receiver and still going through the choke . I normally will shoot 120 shoots through it at the range and when I get home clean the barrel . I have not shoot RB through a choked barrel . But I would think that with the low contact area they have it should work . Most of my rifles are BB with non choked TJ barrel liners . Except for my Korean made rifles and they are non choked as well . The Koreans have a wide land very narrow shallow groove and 10- 12 bhn is about all they will take . But with my TJ barrels I can and do shoot up to 22 bhn with no lose of energy or accuracy when the bullets are sized correctly . I normally stop at groove diameter but I have never gone more than .001 over groove . There really is not much difference in casting for air than powder . Although some PB need the harder alloy were as with air once you get past 8-12 bhn there is really no benefit that I can think of off hand . I use it because I have so much of it in range lead free that it makes since for me to use it . Marvin

[longbow]

What weight boolits are you using in the Condor?

Wouldn't a light coat of lube solve the choke leading issue?

I'd be curious to know more about MT Chambers boolits and rifling twist too. I better reread. He seems to be getting good results with choked barrel as well.

I better not hijack the thread here. Just trying to learn what I can from guys who have done it.

Longbow

[melloairman]

A light coat of lube will not solve the leading or at least it did not for me . I use spray dry moly or dry slide for a lube . Remember no heat to burn a soft lube away . It really is not a sin to alloy your lead for a air rifle and eliminate the leading problem as you would with a PB. I was casting a 52 grain bullet for my 25 calibers out of a RCBS mold . The bullet was accurate but the mold weighed way more than I liked for the use I give a mold . I now cast a 64 grain out of a LBT mold the picture in my avatar . Fly's at 850 fps on 3000 psi . And there are ways to make a choked barrel work with cast bullets if you pay attention to what you are doing . Marvin