Cast for CMP Vintage Military

[ckcadavona]

Does anyone have experience shooting CMP Vintage Military Matches with cast boolits? I'm thinking the best boolit would be 311299 or 314299 in any capable .30 cal rifle (US 30-06 variants, Finn Mosin/M39's, PU Sniper, I'd consider 7.5x55 rifles if I can find an appropriate boolit to fit.)

http://www.odcmp.com/nm/cmpgames.htm

Vintage Military 200 yards: Shooters begin with five sighting shots and ten shots for record in prone in a 15-minute time period. This is followed by 10 shots rapid-fire prone in 80 seconds. The final ten record shots are fired in the standing position with a 10-minute time limit.

Vintage Military Sniper 300 & 600 yards: prone, targets exposed for 20 seconds

[bruce drake]

It can be done and I've done it in the past with Mausers and Enfields but you'll have devil to pay with the wind if it picks up compared to guys tapping off the faster FMJs. If you know your hold offs for the wind with these older rifles you'll do better than me.

Bruce

[nhrifle]

The Lyman 314299 has worked in both my .303 No. IV Mk I Enfield and both my Springfields ( 1903 and 03A3). The high power matches I shot were in Lyden, Mass and we did not have the full distance available, so all three positions were shot at 200 yards. At that distance, I can clean a target, and often had to laugh when my spotters called on the radio to ask if I would stop punching the shot sighting disc through the target!

[Mark Daiute]

I found the 311299 sized for my rifle to perfectly adequate for the Vintage Rifle as well as the Springfield matches. They would shoot better than I can.

Amidst all of those rifles going off I could still hear the odd thwack my boolits make when they hit the backing. It was comforting, just like being back at my home range.

This year I shot the NOE 311284 pushed by 50 grains of 5010. The loads and my Krag were fine, nothing to blame but myself.

I've not shot the sniper match.

[birddog1148]

I shot surplus this year at Perry, hoping to shoot my own next year.

[Larry Gibson]

You can do quite well in the 200 yard CMP Vintage Military matches with cast but if you plan on more than "having fun" in the sniper match with cast bullets then PP'd should be considered, if you want to use cast bullets at all, given the 300 and 600 yard ranges.

Larry Gibson

[birddog1148]

PP'd? Not familiar with that.

[avogunner]

I found the 311299 sized for my rifle to perfectly adequate for the Vintage Rifle as well as the Springfield matches. They would shoot better than I can.

+1
I use the same for my Garand and 1903 in our "As Issued" matches. We shoot at 200yds and cast is more than suitable for that range. I don't shoot sniper matches or longer ranges so it's probably best to follow Larry's advice.
Good Luck

[Baja_Traveler]

PP'd? Not familiar with that.

Paper Patched...

[jonk]

I have shot cast several times in the vintage at Perry. It always gets a stare to hear, "Bang! Bang! pop..." people think I had a squib.

Got a bronze anyhow this year with my Argentine 1891 using 25 gr of 5744. Could have been a silver, but a wind was picking up. The big 200 gr bullet moving at 2000 fps bucks the wind fine; the 5 foot long gun? Not so much...

[madsenshooter]

It's something I'll be doing once I use up the 168gr match bullets I got a couple years ago for .18 ea. I have a good 2000fps load for my K31 that shoots a consistent 1moa at 100yds. It's so consistent I quickly tire of shooting. It's a 168gr Eagan over 25.7gr of SPP210. Also have lots of bullets to try in my Krags.

[fortrenokid]

Just my 2 cents worth. I enjoy our Vintage Bolt Rifles and note that 1903A3's and Swiss K-31's tend to be the winners. Surprisingly, Mosin Nagants do very well. Surprisingly? Despite crude-looking open sights, those rifles have a well-deserved reputation for accuracy but are notoriously slow in the rapid-fire stages and watching guys try to use stripper clips during rapid-fire stages is "educational".

Cast bullets will work fine but "j-word" bullets will give an edge, particularly at longer ranges. The late Frank "Old Duke" Marshall wrote many an article for the Cast Bullet Assn, among others, and absolutely swore by the Lyman 311284 for his Springfield '03's. I tried 'em and liked 'em but the accuracy wasn't as good for me as for Frank. On occasion, I noted some slightly oval bullet holes which indicated to me that the bullets weren't stabilizing as well as they should and this is strange considering the 1-10" twist of the 03 barrels.

What works best for me? The Lee 170gr flat nose. This bullet, incidentally, looks remarkably like the Lyman 311041 (sheer coincidence, I'm sure!). For reasons unknown to my simple mind, this bullet -- cast of linotype, gas checked, and tumble lubed in liquid alox -- gives great accuracy in my DCM 1903A3. The flat nose of the bullet further aids by punching nice clean holes, not wad cutter clean but good nonetheless, in the target which show up well in the spotting scope. I use the Lyman start load of SR4759 which has given me great accuracy and a fairly mild recoil to boot.

Those are the loads I practice with. At the actual match, I use the "j-word" bullet (175gr Sierra Match King) with the same charge of SR4759. It's not all that much more accurate, particularly at the 100-yd ranges we typically use, but gives just enough of an edge to add to confidence. Big Bonus: the two loads shoot pretty much to the same point of impact so I can practice with the Lee 170 grainers and shoot the 175 SMK's without having to adjust the sights.

A big, big added bonus to using cast bullets is the minimal wear and tear on the barrel, particularly some of the WWI and WWII vintage rifles that have softer iron in the barrels. Any "j-word" match shooter has a pretty good idea of how many rounds his barrel will fire before needing to replace it with a new one. Cast bullets? Especially those shot at low-to-moderate velocities? Perhaps in theory you can wear out a barrel with cast bullets but it's more likely that the owner will wear out long before the bore has any issues. I know of some rifles (and heard anecdotally of more) used almost exclusively with cast bullets that are on their 2nd and 3rd owners and still shoot just fine.

[upnorthwis]

Not sure why XC matches are different around the country. In Wisconsin we shoot max. 5 sighters and 20 shots slow fire prone in 20 minutes. Then 10 shots rapid fire prone and rapid fire sitting in somewhere in 70-80 sec. And finally offhand 10 shots in 10 minutes. Was only person shooting cast in the last match. M96 6.5 x 55 Swede 20 gr. 4759, SEACO #264. Wind? What wind. Managed a 457-3 for the win.

[leadman]

I shot a couple of these matches with the 311041 in my Remington 2 groove 1903a3 and did better than with jacketed in my Garand. The rapid fire was fun since I am a lefty but I still had time to spare when done. My load was 19grs of SR4759 for just under 1,700 fps. My spotters said they could see the boolit all the way to the target. LOL

[zomby woof]

I shoot cast at our twice a month local CMP matches. I still shoot jacketed at Perry. Carbine, bolt, vintage and Garand

[WineMan]

I tried a 314299 at 500 M (metallic silhouette) in a 30-06 M1917. Pushed by IMR 4350 it was clocking about 2,200 fps. I used that rifle as it had the most sight elevation adjustment of my ought sixes. Accuracy was not good and leading was an issue. Bullet fit was good and I used filler and Speed Green lube. I dropped that project and went back to a more moderate 1,600 fps load and stayed away from long range cast.

Dave

[WILCO]

You can do quite well in the 200 yard CMP Vintage Military matches with cast but if you plan on more than "having fun" in the sniper match with cast bullets then PP'd should be considered, if you want to use cast bullets at all, given the 300 and 600 yard ranges.

Larry Gibson

Great advice Larry!

[Scharfschuetze]

For anyone interested in the Puget Sound area of Washington State, there is a 60 shot CMP offhand match at 200 yards for military rifles on February 15. First shot goes downrange at 0800 hours. The course of fire is three 20 shot strings. Score and pull between relays.

Cast boolits work great here for offhand shooting and old Springfields and M1 Garands are welcome.

For more info, here's a link:

http://pbrsc.org/

[Larry Gibson]

Scharfschueter

Remember back in the day we used to shoot the informal military rifle matches there? Between our Finn M39s, Swede 6.5s, M98 8x57s and M1903s we sure took our share of the booty (prizes) home.....what a lot of fun that was. Wish I could be there for the match.

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

Ha, ha! Yes those were the days.

I must report though that there was a huge sigh of relief from many a competitor when you bailed out for Arizona!

By the way, Charley Boardman from the Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Club says: "Hello!"