Derimming 22LR- tearing the case

[steady1]

I just started swaging . I'm using a Rock chucker supreme and Corbin 22LR dies. I seem to be having rims tear off about every 15th casing. I am using all different brass found at the range. Is that normal? Even after cleaning the derimmed brass cases, I find several out of 60 or so that have small tears that did not tear off completely.

How is the best way to get the torn case off the punch?

I have read and learned a lot from you guys on this site. Tnx

[clodhopper]

I take the punch out of the press, lay it on a steel surface, and tap tap tap on the case with a small hammer.
Eventually the tapping stretches the brass enough for it to slip off.
Make sure the rim is lubed before running it slowly through the die.
I have had the worst problems with winchester .22 mag brass.

[Utah Shooter]

Would need a bit more clarification on how you prep your brass to answer your first question. The best way to get the case off the punch is like this...

82660

When you lower the ram the washer pushes it off the punch. I do not think that you are going to find a better way to get them off your punch than that!

[marten]

Make sure your punch is lubed, but not too much as it will exacerbate the problem.

[kweidner]

Make sure your die is set deep enough to push the jacket so it does not stick out from the inside taper of the de-rim die. My corbin derimmer means nearly all the way down. Problem is mechanical advantage becomes a problem on RC. That is why I use my Herters model 0 just for derimming. It's a big honking press and I have it set in swage mode. I occasionally tear em off but maybe 1 or two every 400. Also +1 on the lubing the punch more. Are you cleaning with SS? The inside needs to be just as clean as the outside. No primer compound at all left inside case before you derim.

[bullet maker 57]

I agree with all of the above. I found that lubing the 22s before derimming was the key. I fill a rotary tumbler 3/4 full and put 4 small smears of swage lube around the inside of the drum. Let it run for 10 mins. That solved my problem of tears. I can derim hundreds without a problem.

[Zymurgy50]

Just a guess, but I would bet that the brand of cases that are giving you the most problems are either Federal or CCI. These 2 brands tend to be a thicker brass and require more force to de-rim. The dimensions of the Corbin tooling are such that the Winchester and Remington brass runs much better through the de-rim die.

[Smokin7mm]

Lots of good info. I use a swaging press as opposed to a reloading press but I do slip a washer over the punch to ease removal if a rim tears off. I just made a littd devise that slips under the washer and around the punch and as I lower the ram it pulls the washer up (kinda like a wheel puller). Another thing that I found out is if you are using any of the "wet" methods of cleaning the brass (ultrasonic or SS pins). Make sure you brass is COMPLETELY DRY inside and out. I was in a hurry one time and took the brass out of my ultrasonic cleaner and shook all the water out. I let them dry overnight. I started derimming and I was popping the heads off probably 75% and tearing another 10%. Not a very good yield. I was trying to figure out what the cause was and I noticed slight moisture in the popped off heads. They were basicly "hydraulicing" that moisture and rupturing the case. I normally place them under a shop light with a 100 watt bulb for several hours to help dry them out. It was getting late and I didn't want to leave the light on all night so I just let them set all night figuring that would be enough. It wasn't. Once I dried them properly they derimmed just fine.

Bret

[sprinkintime]

Steady1; If you can use a stripper as in figure #3 that is the way to go.
Sprink

[steady1]

Thanks guys, good info. I tried something different tonight before I came in to the internet. I was trying to put the ram up on one steady pass. I was having lots of tears on all brass. Federal was my biggest pain.

Tonight I ran each piece in 3 short strokes (2 partial, then a full 3rd stroke). Lube top, push up to start the rim to fold. Back down, and relube by my fingers. Up again on another short stroke, easy on the handle.. Back down with a finger lube the a final stroke once the rim was almost all the way folded from the second partial stroke. I got 100% cases without tears and none came off on the punch like before. Even the federals went thru without problems, they were still tougher to get swaged.

I got a system now that is working well on this stage. I will try the washer idea. Will I have to get a special hole drilled or a standard size available at hardware store?

[steady1]

Yes, Rem works much better than others. I got lots of Federals tho

[Sitzme]

You will have to find an undersized washer and drill it out. You will need either number sized drills or a tapered reamer to get the size right.

Also, how fast are you stroking the ram? You seem to be having way too much trouble. I also am new to this process but have only had problems with 2 in about 2500 done recently. I used Imperial sizing wax for reference but I think others use lanolin sucessfully. I use steady pressure and there is a slow period when the case head is being ironed out. Then it moves quicker while being pushed the rest of the way out. Mine eject out the top into a modified Lee sizing die case.

Can you measure your punch and a sized cartridge and post here? Someone may also be able to add insight based on the sizes.

[Smokin7mm]

It shouldn't be that difficult and should be able to do in a single pass. I have both reloading press mounted set up as well as a set up for my walnut hill swaging press. The reloading press doesnt have the leverage thus the reason I use my swaging press but it is all done in one stroke. Several possibilities but you never mentioned what lube you were using. The lube best suited for swaging is the lanolin/castor oil mix as the lanolin handles the pressures of swaging best. The castor oil helps thin it a little making it easier to apply. Are your cases coming out of the die with any linear scratches? It is possible that your punch is on the large side causing excessive force and thinning of the brass to get it through. Hope you work out your issues.

Bret

[Prospector Howard]

There you go, Corbin punches. I'll bet it's .199 - .200 sized. If it is, I say it's too fat. steady1, I'd suggest you go back and read two threads. They are on page 3 titled; Derimmed .224...Firing Pin Holes, and What have I Learned ? 22lr->.224. There's some good info in there for you. Smokin7mm is right, mic your punch and see if it's too fat; and also the lanolin/castor oil mix is excellent lube.

[steady1]

Punch is 0.1985 Using standard Corbin swag lube, lanolin.

RC press takes lots of pressure if die is set too low. I get pretty tired in the arm after 60 or so. I am being slow and steady on the press, but only getting about 40 cases per hour.

[-Mischief]

Make sure your punch is lubed, but not too much as it will exacerbate the problem.I had the same problem with my Larry Blackmon De-rimmer and my BTsniper De-rimmer...both of them told me NOT to lube the punch. #1 - no reason to if properly setup and #2 - it lubes the INSIDE of your hull.

I have no experience with Corbins stuff but it shouldn't tear the brass if it's properly adjusted. Please post a pic of the BOTTOM of the die. That may help us to give you further instruction.

[Lizard333]

Punch is 0.1985 Using standard Corbin swag lube, lanolin.

RC press takes lots of pressure if die is set too low. I get pretty tired in the arm after 60 or so. I am being slow and steady on the press, but only getting about 40 cases per hour.

Something is definitely wrong here. You should be able to do 30 or so a MINUTE. Make sure die is properly set up. You should be using all if your leverage at the bottom of your stroke. Right before it cams over, adjust accordingly. Back the die up until your getting this result.

[steady1]

WaHoo Lizard. I worked on the sweet spot of the die and the press ram. I got 56 pellets out in 30 min. Minimum lube and problems. I continue to learn. Wiped the casings down and they appear to be clean derims. Easier on the arm too.

Tnx guys!

[Utah Shooter]

There you go, Corbin punches. I'll bet it's .199 - .200 sized. If it is, I say it's too fat. steady1, I'd suggest you go back and read two threads. They are on page 3 titled; Derimmed .224...Firing Pin Holes, and What have I Learned ? 22lr->.224. There's some good info in there for you. Smokin7mm is right, mic your punch and see if it's too fat; and also the lanolin/castor oil mix is excellent lube.

Sorry! I have to disagree with you on this point. My punch is at .1995 and I must say I think it is wearing out. The only way to get the rim line completely out is for the tightest tolerance possible.

Not only that but you are also leaving out that measurements of the die insert that removes the rim, this should also be in the equation. Not just the diameter of the punch.

[ronaldod]

I agree on that one from Joe. Had to replace mine punch today. Every 5-6 case got stuck. After replacing the derimming was going again like before. Need to get those cases cleaner.
Is there any one who knows the perfect way to get the dirt out of the cases before derimming. I tried cooking and wet tumbling. Found out that cooking was the best way. Allways open for new ideas. Is ultrasonic a good option ?

[Salmon-boy]

I just polished out a plate/punch combo and hit one out of 10 which tore through the firing pin strike...

All others seemed fine with the exception that it took some work to get the case off the punch.. Do I need to reduce the shank of my punch?

[MUSTANG]

Suggestions:

(1) Try annealing your 22LR cases before derimming. Corbin recommends annealing before derimming.I do mine in electric oven set on "Self Clean" - search Cast Boolits for options on annealing. You will find a variety of opinions on pros and cons by members of when to anneal (pre or post derimming).

(2) Make sure you clean/polish 22LR jackets before derimming (particularly after annealing). Make sure the inside of the 22LR cases are VERY Clean. In addition to powder residue, you have to get rid of dirt that may have collected inside at range, plus the ground glass compound must be removed that is used to help ignite the 22LR primer charge in the rim area.

(3) Adjust the derimming die up and down in the rock chucker press until you get the position where derimming takes the least effort in your Rock Chucker.

(4) Sort all of your 22LR jackets into groups by headstamp (e.g. Rem/F/C/ Super-X/etc..) This way you can validate if problems are encountered in a specific 22LR case type.

(5) In addition to lubing the outside of the 22LR case; also place a slight amount (touch) of lube on the Punch before placing a 22LR on the punch. You can accomplish this by a slight swipe up or down the punch with an Index finger and thumb having just a touch of lube on them.

Mustang

[Smokin7mm]

I agree on that one from Joe. Had to replace mine punch today. Every 5-6 case got stuck. After replacing the derimming was going again like before. Need to get those cases cleaner.
Is there any one who knows the perfect way to get the dirt out of the cases before derimming. I tried cooking and wet tumbling. Found out that cooking was the best way. Allways open for new ideas. Is ultrasonic a good option ?

I use an ultrasonic cleaner and it works very well in removing all the residues.

Bret

[Smokin7mm]

I just polished out a plate/punch combo and hit one out of 10 which tore through the firing pin strike...

All others seemed fine with the exception that it took some work to get the case off the punch.. Do I need to reduce the shank of my punch?

So is this a die you made yourself for derimming? Might be the lead in radius causing too much initial force to get it inside the die causing tears. Also if homemade, did you taper the end of the punch slightly? The brass once ironed out in the rim is slightly thicker in that rim area. The punches I have are slightly taper at the end (maybe .001-.002 smaller).
I do not anneal prior to derimming. I tried it but got more cases stuck on the punch as they do not have any springback and tend to form to the punch and not come off.

Bret

[Salmon-boy]

So is this a die you made yourself for derimming? ...
The punches I have are slightly taper at the end (maybe .001-.002 smaller).
Bret

Thanks! It's a completely homebrew concoction. Just a steel plate (3"x5" or so) with a hole drilled and reamed to the correct size, chamfered for a lead-in and then polished. The punch is tool steel turned to size and rounded at the end. It is completely cylindrical (no taper, I'll have to grab my mics and measure it again).. The punch is set into an arbor press and cases are pushed through the plate.

The tear was just a very minor hole right where the hammer struck the case.. If I can get a good shot of it, I'll post a photo.

< EDIT >
Ok, so I spent the afternoon working on 2 punches.. Talk about finicky business!! 120grit emery cloth can be far too aggressive some times.... I'll happily await the die I purchased from Lafaun!!

[Prospector Howard]

That's only if you believe you HAVE TO get the rim line completely out to make quality bullets. I don't believe that at all. From what I've seen here, most of the manufacturers derim dies are .220 ID. If you have a punch at .199+ and you can barely get a Remington case through without tearing it; and then you try to put a thicker Federal through---you're going to have problems!
Sorry! I have to disagree with you on this point. My punch is at .1995 and I must say I think it is wearing out. The only way to get the rim line completely out is for the tightest tolerance possible.

Not only that but you are also leaving out that measurements of the die insert that removes the rim, this should also be in the equation. Not just the diameter of the punch.

[303british.com]

I agree. I took a couple of my punches (Corbin) down 0.002 inches and I have no problems with Federal cases now, using the slightly smaller diameter. I took some crocus cloth and put the punch in my drill press to turn it. I have far, far fewer problems with tearing or punch throughs. When the distance between the punch and the side of the die is too narrow, then you are going to have several problems.

First, if the die/case/punch combination is too tight, you'll have a devil of a time pushing it through. This leads to more tears, punch throughs and stretching. It also means you have to exert more force on the case to push it through. This will tire you out and will put additional strain on the equipment.

Corbin says their punches should last for at least 5,000 cases, but this is dependent on how well you clean the cases before derimming and the die/punch fit. The thicker the punch, the more wear. The trick is finding the right diameter punch for several off the thicker cases like Fedderal and CCI, and using the thinner punches when derimming them. Mine mic at 0.197 inches. This works for me and I suspect will work for everyone else.

There are different manufacturer's derimming dies, so any internal differences between makers might mean altering the 0.197 diameter punch.

[Randy C]

:popcorn:

[Utah Shooter]

That's only if you believe you HAVE TO get the rim line completely out to make quality bullets. I don't believe that at all. From what I've seen here, most of the manufacturers derim dies are .220 ID. If you have a punch at .199+ and you can barely get a Remington case through without tearing it; and then you try to put a thicker Federal through---you're going to have problems!


Have to....? Of course not. Clearly you do not get the line completely out and you are still making bullets.

I do not have to replace my fishing line every year either just to fish. But if I want to eliminate the though of an 8lb Largemouth snapping my line because it was put on 2 years ago I would think it better to switch it every year. Make Sense?

Another topic I would like to add is, why do you use so many different jackets at the same time to make projectiles? If you think about it you can use a thinner 22lr case until your die and or punch is worn a bit then use the thicker cases and be able to get similar results.

Not all of us are settling for "Plinkers" made from the 22lr case.

[303british.com]

I agree on that one from Joe. Had to replace mine punch today. Every 5-6 case got stuck. After replacing the derimming was going again like before. Need to get those cases cleaner.
Is there any one who knows the perfect way to get the dirt out of the cases before derimming. I tried cooking and wet tumbling. Found out that cooking was the best way. Allways open for new ideas. Is ultrasonic a good option ?

I boil the jackets in a pickling pot first to get most of the crud out. I wash them a second time in an ultrasonic. That gets 98% of the grit out from inside the case. You'll never get 100%.



...Another topic I would like to add is, why do you use so many different jackets at the same time to make projectiles? If you think about it you can use a thinner 22lr case until your die and or punch is worn a bit then use the thicker cases and be able to get similar results.

Not all of us are settling for "Plinkers" made from the 22lr case.

Even with washing the cases, over time, I get a ring on the punch from what little bit of grit remains inside the case after cleaning. I've never tried to cut it off and smooth the end over so that I can continue to use it, but I might.

WRT the punch/jacket fit, I think that in some cases, it is far too tight. This is not a jacket making punch, but Corbin makes core seating punches in two different diameters for VB and RF jackets because of the different jacket thicknesses.

I do not believe that it's necessary to crush the side of the jacket against the die. As I posted earlier, it's tougher to push the RF case through which wears on the operator and the equipment.

[Prospector Howard]

You're making alot of assumptions about the quality of the bullets that I'm making, and using so many different jackets "at the same time" to make projectiles. The point I was trying to make was that some of the manufacturers of the dies seem to be supplying one punch in a size that's so large that the customer has to fight with it. Then you have to try to improvise, like you're idea of using the thinner cases first; and then when the punch wears down, use the thicker cases. Why not just have two different sized punches in the first place? For some reason they haven't figured out that the different brand cases are not the same thickness at the case head. As I've said (and 303british and Zymurgy50) previously, the Federal and CCI cases are thicker than the Remington and Winchester. It's just alot better idea to have two different size punches if you plan on using all the different brand cases. Personally I have saved tens of thousands of Federal cases (I do prefer Federal) that I've shot myself over the years so I don't have to rely on range brass. Some people do use range brass and all the different brands, and this is where some of the problems come from; and why this thread got started in the first place. 303 and some others here understand that you don't have to crush the case against the side of the die with a punch that is excessivley large to make good quality bullets. My rifles don't care one bit (and shoot just as good of groups) about that little line that's left there after derimming with a punch that's a little smaller diameter.
Have to....? Of course not. Clearly you do not get the line completely out and you are still making bullets.

I do not have to replace my fishing line every year either just to fish. But if I want to eliminate the though of an 8lb Largemouth snapping my line because it was put on 2 years ago I would think it better to switch it every year. Make Sense?

Another topic I would like to add is, why do you use so many different jackets at the same time to make projectiles? If you think about it you can use a thinner 22lr case until your die and or punch is worn a bit then use the thicker cases and be able to get similar results.

Not all of us are settling for "Plinkers" made from the 22lr case.