357Mag cast SWCs not accurate

[357Ruger]

I've tried several quality cast SWC boolits in my numerous 357Mag revolvers for accuracy. With the SnS Casting's 158gr FP I have loads that will consistently stay under 3inches at 50yards for 12 shots. Some of my guns will keep them under 2.5 inches.

No such luck with any Cast SWC boolits. I'm looking at 5-6inch groups at best.

What is really confusing are my groups with swaged SWCs by Zero, Remington and Speer will shoot as well or better (slightly more consistent) than the cast FP from SnS.

I get great accuracy with cast SWCs in my 44, 45 and 10mm revolvers. Any reason why SWCs should be giving disappointing accuracy in over a dozen Ruger and S&W revolvers?

Most of these loads are running between 700fps and 950fps with the slower loads powered by WST and Trail Boss with the faster loads using Power Pistol. Keep in mind I'm getting excellent accuracy from my loads using various swaged SWC and the cast SnS FP boolits.

[Char-Gar]

Cast SWC bullets are no less or more accurate than any other type of cast bullet in the 357 Magnum round. The causes of your inaccuracy does not rest with the SWC bullet design. There could be numerous reasons, that would take a small book to deal with and that book has already been written, several times in fact.

[detox]

My 158gr RCBS Cowboy and Lyman Cowboy moulds shoot verygood using Bullseye and N32C. I will test these against my new 150gr RCBS Keith style boolit mould. Hopefully the Keith SWC does better or just as good

I will also try 2400 with these boolits

[kweidner]

I too like 2400 in my .357. All mine shoot swc fine. Just out of curiosity what kind of crimp die ar you using?

[357Ruger]

I too like 2400 in my .357. All mine shoot swc fine. Just out of curiosity what kind of crimp die ar you using?

I use a Redding Profile crimp or Lee taper crimp. I have 4 of the 38/357 Redding Profile crimp dies and only one has enough clearance to size .358 boolits without squeezing them down to a smaller diameter. I contacted Redding about this hoping to buy more profile crimp dies to fit my various press set-ups. They were less than helpful and pretty much told me I should buy RCBS dies if I wanted to shoot cast (got it in an email).

[Larry Gibson]

So what cast SWC? A picture of your cast?

What alloy?

What Lube

What sizing?

What loads?

Larry Gibson

[Win94ae]

I only have the Lee 158gr SWC mold and it does well for me and my S&W 686, even with a bore constricted by the frame.

[JWFilips]

I have a Pre-27 S&W .357 mag It has a large throat (.359") so I use the Lee 158 gr SWC TL boolit as dropped ( approx .359") The first time I introduced this gun to thes bootlits I shot this target. The Black bull is 1.125" dia Hand held rested at 25yds 12 shots
82796
Since then I have shot this boolit at 50yds with great success in this gun I would have to say a SWC boolit is very accurate if you tune it to the handgun

[MtGun44]

Larry nails it. Without design, sizing and lube info nothing useful can be said.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

I would take Redding's advice and get an RCBS 357 Magnum seating die with a roll-crimping capability. I believe your "bullet" problems will depart forthwith.

[bobthenailer]

I personaly have owned well over 12 , 357 mag hand guns and 1 rifle . over the past 30 years
loaded in 357 mag cases with a fed SPP and 4.0gr of bullseye powder, with these cast bullets sized @ .358 dia.
Saeco #052 ,388, 390, 354, 396, and RCBS-150gr swc have all grouped 1 inch or under at 25 yards from a bench with a red dot sight or a scope installed . my SS pistol will normaly do that at 50 yards with every bullet except the 052 Wc bullet

[357Ruger]

So what cast SWC? A picture of your cast?

What alloy?

What Lube

What sizing?

What loads?

Larry Gibson

Larry, I don't cast and have tried the SnS, Dardas, and Laser Cast 158gr SWC bullets. They are ordered at .358 size and that is what my micrometer measures. I've stuck with these three makers because most of the others I've tried (different bullets) had largely varying weights.

The SnS FP bullet with 5.6grains of Power Pistol will print under 2.5 inch 12 shot 50 yard groups with several of my guns (686s, 27s, Sec Sixes and GP100s).

Zero or Speer swaged 158gr SWC bullets with 3.5grs WST will also shoot under 2.5 inches for 12 shots at 50 yards in several of my guns. No such luck with any cast 158gr SWC I've tried using either load or going through the work up ramp with these two powders or any of the following. Bullseye, WW 231, Unique, Trail Boss, or Clays.

I own too many 357 revolvers that I have developed great cast loads using the SnS FP or swaged loads using the Zero and Speer bullet for me to believe there is a problem with the guns. I'm wondering if there is some method to loading cast SWCs that I'm missing. I've been reloading successfully since the mid-1980s so I do have some experience.

[357Ruger]

I would take Redding's advice and get an RCBS 357 Magnum seating die with a roll-crimping capability. I believe your "bullet" problems will depart forthwith.

I've experimented extensively with various crimp levels and dies and have found as long as you don't over crimp and deform the bullet it is hard to measure any discernible accuracy difference.

I did buy the RCBS cowboy dies and they seem to be a step above regular RCBS dies. Still no improvement with SWC bullets. I've owned RCBS dies that would shave lead off the bullet unless the case was belled excessively. Thought the dies were **** but through much trial and error figured out the seating stem was the culprit. RCBS replaced that on a 44 and 357 die and the problem went away.

[Larry Gibson]

OK, you shoot commercial cast; and you only get 5-6" accuracy at 50 yards at best.....now you know why most of us who want better than that cast our own. If you want to try for better accuracy with commercial cast SWC's try to find some with true flat bases instead of bevel based cast SWC's. The SnSCastings 158 FPs you are using have flat bases.

I do not believe any different crimp is going to matter.

Larry Gibson

[GP100man]

If there`s a difference in the front driving bands (dia. & thickness) it`ll make a world of difference.

Examples:

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_1181.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_1181.jpg.html)

The boolit on the far right has to be pushed harder to reach the same level of accuracy as the 1s on the left .
The front band on the right boolit only usefulness is to provide a crimping groove as it`s dia. barely engages the rifling.

The left boolits front band is .357, not quite large enuff to fill my bores but large enuff to engage the rifling & thick enuff to endure the forcing cone .

[357Ruger]

OK, you shoot commercial cast; and you only get 5-6" accuracy at 50 yards at best.....now you know why most of us who want better than that cast our own. If you want to try for better accuracy with commercial cast SWC's try to find some with true flat bases instead of bevel based cast SWC's. The SnSCastings 158 FPs you are using have flat bases.

I do not believe any different crimp is going to matter.

Larry Gibson

Larry, Thanks!

Here I am trying to figure out why the cast SWCs don't shoot as well and didn't even notice the base difference. Guess that doesn't say much for my observation techniques.

I will see if I can find some flat base commercial SWC bullets or I may be taking up casting after all.

Scott.

[9.3X62AL]

I've experimented extensively with various crimp levels and dies and have found as long as you don't over crimp and deform the bullet it is hard to measure any discernible accuracy difference.

I did buy the RCBS cowboy dies and they seem to be a step above regular RCBS dies. Still no improvement with SWC bullets. I've owned RCBS dies that would shave lead off the bullet unless the case was belled excessively. Thought the dies were **** but through much trial and error figured out the seating stem was the culprit. RCBS replaced that on a 44 and 357 die and the problem went away.

Those RCBS dies shave lead because the expander spud is too &^*$ small. Since you have a mic, give the expanders a measurement and see what they say. I'll bet at least one and possibly more are at .354". Cases expanded with a spud that small will reduce bullet diameters--you don't even need a taper crimp die to ruin castings if you use an undersized expander spud's evil work product to squeeze them down ahead of time. They're "pre-disastered" for you before they get to the seater die.

[Hammerhead]

Under 1,000 FPS the swaged bullets rule for accuracy.
Speer, Hornady and Magnus swaged SWC's out shoot any cast SWC at sub-sonic speeds IME.
The Magnus LSWC-HP is an especially nice bullet. Sharp shoulders and meplats and a real hollow point. I think the soft nature of the swaged bullets allows them to slug up or shrink down to fit the throats and bore.

I might try 2400 or similar with the cast bullets and turn up the speed.

[BCRider]

I'm thinking that 9.3x62 may be onto something. Why not use a bullet puller to pop a couple of loaded rounds apart and measure the bullet diameter? Also measure along the length of it. The taper crimp is likely doing it's own part in reducing the bullet diameter and thus messing up your accuracy.

[357Ruger]

OP here with an update. I've found my bevel base bullets (all commercial cast) will actually shoot when stoked with 13grs of 2400. For some reason they don't want to shoot well at target velocities, at least for me. The commercial flat base bullets I'm shooting seem to work well at both speeds.

I'm starting to think the hard cast bevel base work over a narrower range. You guys who cast your own probably make them softer which I think might improve their performance at target levels.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think hard-cast commercial bullets do much "bumping up", but there might be several tenths or as much as .001" of expansion going on ahead of that 13.0 x 2400 load you are shooting. You are likely in the 28K-30K PSI toll-free dialing area now, so if the alloy is going to become pliable those sorts of pressures might start the music for you.

FWIW, my "pet" 357 load uses 13.5 grains of 2400 behind Lyman #358156 and gives 1225-1250 FPS from my 686 x 4". This SWC boolit uses a Hornady gas check, and shoots WONDERFULLY. It is a duplicator of current W-W 158 grain JHP velocities and trajectories; this was my agency's former issue duty load in this caliber.

[rintinglen]

Hard boolits shot slow shoot poorly. I'm betting the Commercial cast boolits you have tried are all "hard cast" boolits with a brinell hardness of 17 or higher. Those swaged bullets are much softer, and so for lighter loads are superior. Now, were you to crank up the speed (and pressure) until you get up around 1200-1300 fps, those soft swaged bullets will layer the bore with lead, while the hard cast boolits start to come into their own.

[Old Caster]

I think your problem is not only too hard of a bullet but too hard of a lube. Sometimes a hard bullet might shoot at target velocities but I think everything has to be perfect. I once shot some .451 Dardas 200 grain SWC's in my Les Baer ACP in the Ransom rest and up until that point I never got a commercial cast bullet to perform like I wanted it to. I accidently bought the .451 bullets because at that time .451 was their default size when ordering on line. After great results, I ordered again and got .452 (which is what I meant to get to begin with) and also .453. The .451's grouped around 2 inches for 10 shots at 50 yards, the .452 was on the order of 4-5 inches and the .453's were around 6-7 inches. Since that time I got Saeco's bevel base and flat base cast bullets to be a bit under 2 inches at 50. Of the several times I tried the flat beat the bevel but not by enough to argue a point for the flat base. Each time it was about 1/4 in difference and there is no guarantee that if I tried it again the results would be the same because that is too close for me to call.

For 38's I settled on RCBS 150 as the most accurate bullets I could cast. Lyman .358277's are pretty good also but I like the quality I can get out of the RCBS better and consequently use it. If I use hard lube, I need to get up around a minimum of 830 fps or the accuracy just isn't up to par but with NRA 50/50 which is a soft lube, I have no problem being a little slower than 750. My best load with soft lube is 3.5 grains of 231 behind either the RCBS or Lyman bullet. If you would like, I could send you some lubed RCBS bullets to try so you can make a decision towards your next move. I used 38 cases for this load but it won't matter much if it is in .357 cases. I do not agree that a soft bullet can't be fired in the neighborhood of 1200 fps without leading. BPCS shooters shoot around 1250 all the time with no antimony in their bullet and they usually are of an alloy of between 20 - 40 parts lead to one part tin.

[wv109323]

I found that my cast bullets needed to be around 840-850 FPS to group well. I am using a Model 14 S&W in .38 special. My load is 4.6 gns of WW231. With that load I shot 9 rounds into 1 5/8" at 50 yards with a Ransom Rest. The first shot was low to the group but I wiped the barrel between different loads. 4.0 gns of Bullseye was 2 1/4". My mould is a NEI.

[357Ruger]

I appreciate all of the input guys.

Old Castor, thanks for the offer but I have plenty of swaged bullets for the target loads and will save the "Hard Cast" bullets for upper end loads.

[Old Caster]

My point was, do you want to try some of the soft cast bullets with soft lube as slower velocities to see if that works for you.

[357Ruger]

My point was, do you want to try some of the soft cast bullets with soft lube as slower velocities to see if that works for you.

I wouldn't mind trying them but if they did work where would I get more? Unless you have bullets for sale or know where I can purchase more it would be like tasting something good but not being able to have any more of it. If I'm not getting the point (which is quite possible) send me a PM.

[Old Caster]

I would give you some to try if that would help you but am not interested in making bullets for sale. Too many easier ways to make money. If they work well for you maybe it could get you started casting also. If you just want to try some commercial soft 38 bullets to see if they make a difference for you, I think Missouri Bullets sells them and while I have never used any of their products I have heard good things about them. The biggest reason I cast is because my bullets shoot better than what I can buy because I get to control everything from size to alloy and mold.

[detox]

Load your SWC so that front band touches forcing cone inside cylinder. This lines up the boolit better when fired. I also get better grouping when i make the boolit go faster (800 vs. 1100) by adding more powder. My load using SWC boolit:150 SWC RCBS plain base boolit over 11gr of 2400 and standard CCI 500 primers = 1150fps. I use Lyman #2 alloy 15bhn. When testing you want a Firm tight hold on pistolgrip and downward pressure on sand bag.

[kevmc]

Load your SWC so that front band touches forcing cone inside cylinder. This lines up the boolit better when fired..

This may mean that the crimping groove is out of the case........???
Taper crimp on the middle band>>>????

[detox]

This may mean that the crimping groove is out of the case........???
Taper crimp on the middle band>>>????

Roll crimp will work by crimping on middle band. Longer untrimmed brass may fit into crimp groove. If your brass is short you may have to trim more to crimp onto band. Trim about ten cases and test to see if accuracy is better.

[Hammerhead]

disregard