My experiences with cast in the 5.56 so far...

[Patrick L]

For about the last year I've been tinkering with cast boolits in the AR 15. I used to say that I cast for every gun I own except the AR, so I thought I'd remedy that. The recent shortages of components also got me moving on this.

First off, let me establish a baseline. My AR is a mid 90s Colt Match Target HBAR. It is basically stock, it doesn't have a free floated barrel or much of anything done to it. It has a 1/9 twist barrel, and I shoot 55gr FMJs almost exclusively because they're cheap and shoot better than I can. Although I really don't use it as my primary match rifle, it primarily gets used for our reduced course NRA Highpower matches. My son actually uses it more than I do. With my standard handload of 24 gr IMR 4320, a CCI 400 primer, and a Remington (usually) bulk 55 gr FMJ it shoots about like this:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff109.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff109.jpg.html)


This is a 20 shot group fired in two strings of 10, rapid fire, at 100 yds slung and prone. I shot this target actual under match conditions. This particular one was shot with a scope since my son enjoys shooting the optics class so the scope was on it that day. I usually prefer irons. This is about how well I can shoot the gun. This group spans about 2 inches for 20 shots. The black bull is 5 inches. Not stellar by the standards of todays super ARs, but it satisfies my needs. This is what I have been trying to duplicate with cast in the AR. Sadly, it has not happened...

I began with some boolits that forum members provided me to try out. Some SAECO 221s and some from a Group Buy Mihec mold. I subsequently acquired the Mihec mold in a rerun, the 22 NATO, which is a 64 gr spitzer. Really a beautiful mold and boolit. I focused on IMR 4895, since many posters had claimed good results with that, plus I have about 25 lbs. of it. Remember the shortages! Well, my experiences matched those I had with cast in the Garand about 8-10 years ago. It was no mean trick to get a load that functioned the rifle, but they didn't shoot for squat. Loads that functioned didn't shoot well. For example, I settled on a load of 23 gr 4895 with the Mihec boolit sized .225, lubed with LBT Blue Soft, and a Lyman gascheck. Although others reported their ARs were functioning with loads in the 17-19 gr range, I found I needed to get up to around 22 gr or so to get the rifle to cycle and lock open on the last round. My best efforts at 50 yards looked like this:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1096.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1096.jpg.html)
This is a bench shot group. Remember it is 50 yards, not 100. Best efforts at 100 were very dissappointing:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1093.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1093.jpg.html)

At least on this target 5 are in the black and all 10 are on the paper. Keep in mind this is my best effort. Many other targets were worse. It didn't matter if I shot from the bench or slung & prone, or with irons or a scope.

I then took a step backwards, and dug out the new Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. In their notes on the cartridge they state that semi autos might be problematic. I picked a more "suitable load, 10 grains of 2400. Of course I had a single shot rifle with this, but at least it started looking promising:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1092.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1092.jpg.html)

This is a 9 shot group(something was weird with one round, it wouldn't chamber). And the one low round was a called jerk. This is starting to get somewhere. Of course, we are single loading this. But I like bolt actions anyway, my primary Highpower rifle is an 03A3 shooting cast. Then it hits me;"Hey, my father-in-law has a Savage Bolt Action .223!" I borrow it and do this from the bench at 100yds:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1091.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1091.jpg.html)

This is a 20 shot group shot from the bench with iron sights. On the first shot the trigger totally suprised me, that's the low flyer. This is getting to where I want to be!

So that's where I'm at so far. With cast in the Garand, someone eventually turned my onto the Bob S loads, which is how I finally got function and accuracy. I don't have that with the AR and cast yet. But, I'm thinking maybe a .223 bolt gun might be in my future. Maybe a nice used Remington 700 with a heavy varmint barrel? I don't know, but its a work in progress, that's for sure.

[Jack Stanley]

I had a very nice Remington Varmint Special that was great with cast . I let it go to a friend of mine who had worn the barrel off his 22-250 in an attempt to eliminate woodchucks from the county . Lots of good rifles out there just waiting for a new home .

Jack

[Gray Fox]

For a less expensive bolt gun you might look at the Savage Model 25. Mine has a laminated stock, 24 inch heavy fluted barrel with recessed crown and the AccuTrigger. I haven't tried cast in it since I have no mold, but it likes the Remington 55 grain BTFMJ bullets a lot.

[GabbyM]

If you look at the Rem 700 barrels Brownells keeps in stock. You'll see they always have heavy #3 varmint barrels in 223Rem with a 1:14" twist. Simple reason for that. As an old prairie dog shooter I know for a fact the light 50 to 53 grain bullets traveling very fast is what connects with the two inch wide critters at 400 yards. 1:14" twist barrel is the best way to send them down range. Ballisticians figured that out way back when.

[Patrick L]

OK, this is all nice about .223 bolt guns, but no comments about the topic at hand, namely my lack of success with cast in the AR? That was sort of what I was looking for.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I used 17-18g of surplus 4895 and a 62g cast in my 1-7 M4 Style and groups looked basically the same as yours.Sometimes i get round 3 MOA groups other times weird flyers.I just loaded them up to save money for the kids shooting the gun and really didn't feel like fine tuning it.My 308 Saiga,SKS and FN FAL shot better with less work.

[Larry Gibson]

PatrickL

Were you using a dacron filler with the 4895 loads?

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I did some recent experimenting with my Contender rifle in 223 Rem and my son's AR in 5.56 with the 45gr Lyman round nose and H4895. Mainly I was testing the Hi-Tek coating but did get some decent groups from my son's AR at 100 yards, scoped from the bench. Think the top load was 24.5grs of H4895 for about 2,700 fps and less than 3" groups.
Your lube is a very good one that should protect the boolit up to 3,000 fps from my experience. I have shot the 45gr boolit in my 22 K-Hornet and my Contender 223 at that velocity with decent accuracy. Both of these barrels will shoot into .5 moa with jacketed so the 1.5" to 3" groups I think could be better.
The groups are shot with linotype alloy so that may be a factor. A little more velocity may not hurt either.

[GabbyM]

OK, this is all nice about .223 bolt guns, but no comments about the topic at hand, namely my lack of success with cast in the AR? That was sort of what I was looking for.

Well I was trying. How your bolt locks up doesn't' matter. My 1:12" twist AR shoots cast just fine.
With a 1:9" twist your accuracy range will be 1,800 to 1,900 fps.
If you want to seriously shoot cast in an AR. Get a 1:14" twist barrel with 223 REM chamber. Not a NATO chamber. Then there are some very nice wildcats. 6x45 and 25/223.

You should be able to get under two inches at 100 yards with a 9 twist.

[Patrick L]

HARRYPOPE, did those loads cycle the action? I couldn't get the gun to cycle that light.

Larry, no filler. I plan to load on a progressive, so I don't want to deal with that.

Leadman, you think more velocity? I was thinking maybe I was pushing mine too fast and that was the problem. Like the pictures show, the slow loads that didn't cycle started to shoot OK.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, no filler. I plan to load on a progressive, so I don't want to deal with that.

Sometimes we have to do what needs to be done. I load cast loads with dacron on a Dillon 550B also and find it no problem to pull the case out after charging at station 2, insert the Dacron filler, re-insert in station 2 and then rotate the shell holder. However if you are using a more progressive loader like the 650 it could be a pain. If so then I suggest trying a slower powder for greater gas port pressure while keeping velocity lower such as AA4350, H4831SC or RL19.

Larry Gibson

[Wilkie]

For about the last year I've been tinkering with cast boolits in the AR 15. I used to say that I cast for every gun I own except the AR, so I thought I'd remedy that. The recent shortages of components also got me moving on this.

First off, let me establish a baseline. My AR is a mid 90s Colt Match Target HBAR. It is basically stock, it doesn't have a free floated barrel or much of anything done to it. It has a 1/9 twist barrel, and I shoot 55gr FMJs almost exclusively because they're cheap and shoot better than I can. Although I really don't use it as my primary match rifle, it primarily gets used for our reduced course NRA Highpower matches. My son actually uses it more than I do. With my standard handload of 24 gr IMR 4320, a CCI 400 primer, and a Remington (usually) bulk 55 gr FMJ it shoots about like this:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff109.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff109.jpg.html)


This is a 20 shot group fired in two strings of 10, rapid fire, at 100 yds slung and prone. I shot this target actual under match conditions. This particular one was shot with a scope since my son enjoys shooting the optics class so the scope was on it that day. I usually prefer irons. This is about how well I can shoot the gun. This group spans about 2 inches for 20 shots. The black bull is 5 inches. Not stellar by the standards of todays super ARs, but it satisfies my needs. This is what I have been trying to duplicate with cast in the AR. Sadly, it has not happened...

I began with some boolits that forum members provided me to try out. Some SAECO 221s and some from a Group Buy Mihec mold. I subsequently acquired the Mihec mold in a rerun, the 22 NATO, which is a 64 gr spitzer. Really a beautiful mold and boolit. I focused on IMR 4895, since many posters had claimed good results with that, plus I have about 25 lbs. of it. Remember the shortages! Well, my experiences matched those I had with cast in the Garand about 8-10 years ago. It was no mean trick to get a load that functioned the rifle, but they didn't shoot for squat. Loads that functioned didn't shoot well. For example, I settled on a load of 23 gr 4895 with the Mihec boolit sized .225, lubed with LBT Blue Soft, and a Lyman gascheck. Although others reported their ARs were functioning with loads in the 17-19 gr range, I found I needed to get up to around 22 gr or so to get the rifle to cycle and lock open on the last round. My best efforts at 50 yards looked like this:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1096.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1096.jpg.html)
This is a bench shot group. Remember it is 50 yards, not 100. Best efforts at 100 were very dissappointing:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1093.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1093.jpg.html)

At least on this target 5 are in the black and all 10 are on the paper. Keep in mind this is my best effort. Many other targets were worse. It didn't matter if I shot from the bench or slung & prone, or with irons or a scope.

I then took a step backwards, and dug out the new Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. In their notes on the cartridge they state that semi autos might be problematic. I picked a more "suitable load, 10 grains of 2400. Of course I had a single shot rifle with this, but at least it started looking promising:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1092.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1092.jpg.html)

This is a 9 shot group(something was weird with one round, it wouldn't chamber). And the one low round was a called jerk. This is starting to get somewhere. Of course, we are single loading this. But I like bolt actions anyway, my primary Highpower rifle is an 03A3 shooting cast. Then it hits me;"Hey, my father-in-law has a Savage Bolt Action .223!" I borrow it and do this from the bench at 100yds:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/223%20Cast/GunStuff1091.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/patrickl_01/media/223%20Cast/GunStuff1091.jpg.html)

This is a 20 shot group shot from the bench with iron sights. On the first shot the trigger totally suprised me, that's the low flyer. This is getting to where I want to be!

So that's where I'm at so far. With cast in the Garand, someone eventually turned my onto the Bob S loads, which is how I finally got function and accuracy. I don't have that with the AR and cast yet. But, I'm thinking maybe a .223 bolt gun might be in my future. Maybe a nice used Remington 700 with a heavy varmint barrel? I don't know, but its a work in progress, that's for sure.

Great work up! Great Info! I am also working up loads for 5.56. I found 19.0 grains of H4895 under a NOE 55 grain cycled my AR well. I was shooting at a 12" steel gong at 100 yards and got hits every time. (Me needs for shooting don't require as much accuracy as some.) I am currently working up a load using H4198. I think it burns a little too quick. I am up to 16.9 grains under the 55 grain NOE. This load doesn't cycle the AR. I also loaded 16.5 grains H4198 under a 70 Grain NOE bullet. This did cycle well and gave me "Minute-of-Gong". My chrony was on the fritz testing the H4198 so I don't have speed numbers.

[Patrick L]

Larry,

I have IMR 4831 in my inventory, do you think that would be worth a try? In fact that's what I ended up with for my Bob S Garand loads. I tried the H4831SC but found that, in an identical load, it left a lot of unburned powder.

What do you think might be an appropriate place to start. As I said, my rifle doesn't seem to cycle with loads as light as others have reported.

[silverjay]

I just went through a similar exercise with a basic bushmaster using IMR4064 and was able to get to similar groups as your FMJ loads. Did not use any filler and seated well short of the lands because of the bullet design. Used the NOE 62 grain with GC.

[Larry Gibson]

IMR 4831 is a little faster burning that H4831 so it might work a bit better....only way to know is to try it. With cast in the ARs with slower powders the object is to lengthen the pressure curve for sufficient gas port psi for functioning while keeping the velocity down for some accuracy. The problem is that the psi doesn't get high enough with some of the slow burners for them to burn efficiently. They work best with the heavier cast bullets which you have. Silverjay found success with 4064 which ignites fairly well and burns cleaner. It is bulky and doesn't require a filler but getting those long sticks of powder into the .223 case is a pain to me, especially when the Dillon 550B press is used.

Suggest you try the IMR 4831 and if that doesn't work try progressively faster burning powders in the future when you can. I suggest AA4350 next, then RL19, then Varget, then IMR 4064 and then H4895. With any of those if load density gets below 80% I do suggest the Dacron filler be used.

Larry Gibson

[Good Cheer]

Anybody worked up low velocity head shot accurate rabbit and squirrel loads in 5.56 chambers?

[Larry Gibson]

Anybody worked up low velocity head shot accurate rabbit and squirrel loads in 5.56 chambers?

Yes.

Larry Gibson

[mikeym1a]

Yes.

Larry Gibson

AHHH! not fair. Can you give us a hint?? [smilie=s: