T/C Seneca .32 woes but then...

[james6600]

I have had this Seneca for 30yrs and never did much with it, last squirrel season I thought I would scope it cause I don't like wearing my glasses. So after some research I found it was no longer the $100 gun I thought it was and locked it back up. Last month I figured I would put on my glasses and use it anyways. 50 shots later accuracy was less than desirable so I checked T/C's web site and they claim 30-50gr start to max loads and a 1n30 twist "wow". Starting over working a load up trying pyroRS,pyroP,GoexFF and Shocky's FFF which absorbs moisture like mad even in the plastic container it comes in, I found 35gr of GoexFF was best at a 6" group at 25yrds, some squirrel rifle. Time to try something different, I ordered .015 & .020 patches .310 & .315 RB's and some felt wads as I have heard they help sometimes, 80 shots later I'm out of Goex, Shocky's is inconsistent from having to beat it against the table to get it to pour and Pyrodex is well Pyrodex.
Friendship IN bound, 3 hours later I pick up 5lbs Old Ensford FFF, back home I start with 28gr, felt, .015 patch and .310 ball, two KAWHOOMS later the 3rd ball barely went down the fouled barrel. Cleaning and starting over with 20gr I tried every combination possible, now grouping 8" at 25yrds I try two maxiballs, 2nd shot missed my 14"X14" target. Now I'm PO'ed, I start packing up thinking of posting it forsale or trade for a .62 smooth bore on this forum, I see I have 5 more patches still out I thought what the heck. I dropped to 15gr loaded a .310 ball and a .015 patch took aim and CAARRAKK, now that was a clean burn sounded like my 25-20wcf, I loaded two more and they slid down the barrel with ease. Not expecting much I walk to the target and on the way back a Chessie cat would have been proud of the smile I was wearing, one shot dead center the other two 1-1/4" high in one ragged hole. Then I swab the barrel drop to 10gr and try the last two before dark, one went 1/2" left of center the other an inch above the first, now I found my powder range and its moment of squirrel. If I can repeat this tomorrow it will be time to check the 50yrd range for drop.

[Mk42gunner]

I have often wondered why people want to magnumize the little .32's, they are meant for squirrels and rabbits these days. Just how much more power than a .22 does it take?

One of these years I will finish my .32.

Robert

[GARD72977]

I know each barrel is different but I bet that 1/30 twist is spinning the heck out of the ball. That may be why it likes the small powder charges. I have played with my 32 crocket a little and I likes Swiss 3f. I bet you gun would really shoot a maxi well.

[james6600]

I get the round balls worked out I will play with the Maxi's, they would be fun on non edible game. I will have to find a mold if I shoot many they are expensive. The only thing I can figure on the fast twist is they were built when Maxi's were popular and they designed the barrel for them. I have never been a Maxi fan but at longer ranges they would be fun on coyote with a 32 or 36. I agree MK42 I think 30-50gr is out of line and I was glad when my powder charge was that low.

[DIRT Farmer]

I used the senecas for teaching 4-H shooting sports for several years. As all of the instructors donated to the club I cast the balls for the guns. I had a .319 mould and we cut the patches at the muzzle with .015 ticking. The 32s seemed to like 20 grains, we used Goex fffg and swabing was required every shot for good groups.

What day did you buy powder, I worked the magazine friday? Let us know your results with Olde Ensford.

[GARD72977]

Im really wanting to build a fast twist 32 for maxis. just want to plink with it. Thinking about a underhammer buggy rifle.

[james6600]

I purchased powder last Saturday. On the patches, I think my barrel is 3/4" and the patches cover the end of the barrel, when I start the ball I have to fold the patch over top of the ball to get the ramrod to fit. I was thinking that might be my accuracy problem because I haven't been able to find any spent patches but centrifugal force would open them up don't you think? Is that common or are my patches to big?

[Alan in GA]

A local gunshop purchased a 'batch' of SENECA rifles in .45 caliber years ago. Just recently they put them out on the used rack and one guy reportedly [salesman said] bought TWELVE of them, having 'first pick'. I bought TWO and even though the stocks have many handling marks the bores are excellent!...a surprise for sure! They were property of the Georgia DNR and used for training classes so most of the 'marks' came from students handling them, not shooting it seems. One was complete and the other was missing a hammer [ouch!]. Quick trip to the local muzzle loading shop and thank the Lord they had an old T/C parts stash and there I bought a new Seneca hammer for $30....GLAD to pay it as there must not be many parts out there left [factory burned?].
I actually had a Seneca .45 for a year or two back around 1975. Also had T/C Hawkens but interest in muzzle loaders comes and goes with me...LOL.
I am looking forward to shooting round ball [and Maxi's if I can find some!] with these two complete Seneca rifles. One is a #3,XXX and the other a #9,XXX so they are EARLY production rifles.
And yes, they are worth much more than what we paid....seems that now they are getting scarce the asking prices are UP THERE [$300 plus??].
Great little rifles in any caliber!!!

[curator]

The small caliber muzzle loaders are often quite fussy about how you load them and with what. I have a T/C Cherokee .32 which gave me fits until I worked through all its peculiarities. Mine insists on a tight ball/patch combination. I use the Lee mould that makes a .319 round ball and a .016 pillow ticking patch. This is very tight and requires a "fitted" ball-set and short starter. I cut the patches at the muzzle and use the "Dutch Shoultz" dry-lube system. 20 to 22 grains of Goex FFFg is the "sweet spot." Accuracy is outstanding IF I weigh all the balls and reject any that are .2 grains lighter or heavier than the average of 49 grains. For consistent accuracy over a course of fire, the barrel must be wiped after each shot with a 3/4 inch-square cotton/muslin patch lightly moistened with plain water. Failure to wipe the bore the same way each time results in degraded accuracy as barrel/bore condition is critical with these pea-shooters.

[james6600]

curator, can you expand on fitted ball set.... and more detail on "outstanding accuracy" (please put in to numbers)? I am curious on the Dutch Schultz system but the web site doesn't convince me and I wont come off my money until I have a better understanding of his methods.

[waksupi]

curator, can you expand on fitted ball set.... and more detail on "outstanding accuracy" (please put in to numbers)? I am curious on the Dutch Schultz system but the web site doesn't convince me and I wont come off my money until I have a better understanding of his methods.

I was hesitant too. Glad I spent the money.
Dutch must be 85 or so now, but will still answer emails, assuming he is still kicking.

[Bent Ramrod]

What Waksupi said. Dutch doesn't have any deep dark olde-tyme muzzleloading secrets, but he has a course of optimization of powder charges, patches, lubes and (most importantly, at least to me) bore conditioning, that lets one track down the variables and nuances systematically and get the best performance out of each. The cumulative result looks like you're wiping and loading pretty much like you were doing when you started, but the results are much better. If you get off track, you fire him off an e-mail, describing your problem, and he usually replies within a day. Good advice, too.

So far, I've followed about half his advice and cut my patched round ball groups at 50 yards in half. (4-1/2" with some wild flyers to 2" with occasional closer flyers.) Cut out about 80% of the hassle I was going through as well. Got the materials ready to follow the rest of his advice, and am just waiting for a calm day to try them.

[Squeeze]

I just had a .32 built from a Knight Mountaineer. Its still in load development stage, but at a good 40 yards ( bit far for a .32 unless calm day) heres a target from still sight in scope/load test

82714
Shot L-R top, L-R bottom, then middle. Few more range days and ill be drilling holes 5-7 shot groups. With my .32 cherokee and peeps, I can easily match those. But i should be able to tighten up these after some fiddling. that was a .315 PRB with an ox yoke .010 factory patch and BH209 some 15gr, to 20 gr, 25 for last 2 seemed to tighten up. (1-36 twist barrel)

[curator]

A "fitted" ball-set is made with the parts that contacts the ball having the exact curvature of the ball. The "short" part of the short starter is exactly the correct length so that when smacked hard enough to contact the muzzle face, the ball is started flush. That way the patch is cut as small as practical but the ball is not scraped or cut by the patch knife. As far as accuracy, 5-shot groups of 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards from a bench rest is my average as long as wind doesn't become a factor. Having a peep-type rear sight might help shrink these groups somewhat but I am working with the original sights on my Cherokee. Cross winds really affect these little balls. Dutch's "Method" is actually a system of precisely worked-up variables done in a scientific way one at a time. It is simple common sense applied to factors most shooters don't consider, but each do effect accuracy in a cumulative way.

As a professional scientist (retired) I am amazed that shooters do not approach their sport with a more scientific treatment. Tradition and country lore has often lost the essential details that made things work in the old days. Much of what one reads on the internet sites is based on something other than science. As a teenager, learning about shooting muzzle loading guns, I had a helpful old timer carefully explain how a hickory ramrod made from a tree under which a silver dollar was buried during the Spring full moon, would solve my problem with the occasional flier. He was serious and had correctly made hickory ram rods for sale. Looking at his targets restored my skepticism.

[james6600]

I just ordered Dutch Schultz's book.

[pietro]

the patches cover the end of the barrel, when I start the ball I have to fold the patch over top of the ball to get the ramrod to fit.

Is that common or are my patches to big?



The patches you're using are waaaay too big - and (since I've seen no mention of it) they should be lubricated before loading (spittle's OK), or the balls will be hellish to ram home.

The proper size patch should cover the powder-side half of the ball, plus a little more - just enough to grasp the rifling, with minimal patch on the muzzle face of the ball.

If the ball(s) have a casting / sprue mark, the ball should be loaded with the sprue /mark towards the muzzle for best accuracy - commercial balls are rolled smooth, all around.




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