US-Krag needs a new barrel

[Cosmiceyes]

I bought a US-Krag barreled action,and I need to get it re-barreled.I need some experienced help as to what rate of twist,amount of groves,to make it a Military Shooter. I have a Redfield no drill peep sight needing a mounting screw,and a aperture.I know I will have to send it to whomever to get it all done. I have a nice stock that I bought from Great American Gunstocks in Yuba City Calif. It is 90 something percent done,select grade for a total price of $197.00.

[frnkeore]

It's hard to beat a 6 groove Douglas barrel in a 12 twist.

If you want to shoot in Military matches, you won't be able to with a replaced the barrel.

http://www.douglasbarrels.net/

Frank

[captain-03]

Try here for a new barrel:

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=catalogList&cat=BAR

[GBertolet]

I have been told that the Criterien Krag barrels are the best for replacement. They are indexed pretty well, as when they are screwed up tight against the receiver, the extractor cut is at 12 O'clock and the headspacing is usually good from the gitgo. At least that is what the experts say on the Krag Owners Forum. http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1373472264

[Syntax Error]

I wonder if anyone makes Norwegian Krag replacement barrels these days?

[JHeath]

It sounds like you haven't assembled and fired the rifle yet. What makes you think the barrel is no good?

[Bent Ramrod]

Frnkeore has it. Douglas .308 x 12." Mine will handle any weight cast boolit up to 311284 and 311299 at cast boolit velocities out to "mid-range." What's wrong with the barrel you have?

I heard some story once about a batch of Krags that came out of Springfield Arsenal that shot anomalously close on the sighting-in range. Turned out the guide on one of the riflng machines had come loose and slipped a little, with the resulting angle cutting a 12" twist instead of a 10" until they had tracked it down. They duly noted the 12" twist rifles shot more accurately than the normal run of the mine, and then reset the slipped guide back to 10." "Problem solved!"

[UBER7MM]

I thought a 30-40 with a heavy bullet / boolit would be best served from a 1/10" twist barrel. The members on this thread from a few years ago says 1/12":

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-112066.html

I hope this helps

[Cosmiceyes]

It sounds like you haven't assembled and fired the rifle yet. What makes you think the barrel is no good?

How about 5 out of aligned holes drilled all over the barrel with some filled with JB-Wield where the rear sight would go. All the threads are boogered up,and they used JB-Wield to hold rear sight automotive screws in place. A nice hack saw cut in the top of the barrel also. Here is a picture of the mess.
82395

It is also covered in some black coating that's coming off in patches.

[Cosmiceyes]

It's hard to beat a 6 groove Douglas barrel in a 12 twist.

If you want to shoot in Military matches, you won't be able to with a replaced the barrel.

Frank

Why wouldn't I be able to replace the barrel,and compete. The AR boys do it all the time. Everything will be original configuration but the twist. AR-boys change to heavy match grade barrels,and not much about their guns have any semblance of the original form.
I am glad I can get a Douglas! I have 4"200th Year of American Liberty"Rugers with Douglas barrels. :)'s

[Char-Gar]

In days gone by, it was common to take an 03 or 03A3 barrel, cut off a section in the rear, rethread and rechamber back to 30-40. But these days such barrels are not cheap anymore. I recently rebarreled a Krag with a new 03A3 barrel, but I had it for 30 years and it only cost me $15.00.

[Char-Gar]

Frnkeore has it. Douglas .308 x 12." Mine will handle any weight cast boolit up to 311284 and 311299 at cast boolit velocities out to "mid-range." What's wrong with the barrel you have?

I heard some story once about a batch of Krags that came out of Springfield Arsenal that shot anomalously close on the sighting-in range. Turned out the guide on one of the riflng machines had come loose and slipped a little, with the resulting angle cutting a 12" twist instead of a 10" until they had tracked it down. They duly noted the 12" twist rifles shot more accurately than the normal run of the mine, and then reset the slipped guide back to 10." "Problem solved!"

That story has been around for a long time, but when I heard it, the rifles were 03 Springfields and not Krags. At any rate a 1-12 twist if very good for cast bullets in 30 caliber and will handle 180 grain jacketed very well. I am building a good 03 Sporter for my son and I had E.R. Shaw rebarrel it back to 30-06 and used a 1-12 twist barrel.

[JHeath]

How about 5 out of aligned holes drilled all over the barrel with some filled with JB-Wield where the rear sight would go. All the threads are boogered up,and they used JB-Wield to hold rear sight automotive screws in place. A nice hack saw cut in the top of the barrel also. Here is a picture of the mess.

Oh.

I would try shooting it anyway, assuming it is safe and does not disrupt your project. It could be a once-in-a-lifetime tack driver. If you have a broad sense of humor, you could enjoy having a sleeper at the range. Or you might decide to stash the old barrel for a future project where cosmetics do not matter.

Good or bad, you throw it away without testing it, you are throwing away information. The barrel is worth little, but the information could be worth a lot.

[madsenshooter]

Why wouldn't I be able to replace the barrel,and compete. The AR boys do it all the time. Everything will be original configuration but the twist. AR-boys change to heavy match grade barrels,and not much about their guns have any semblance of the original form.
I am glad I can get a Douglas! I have 4"200th Year of American Liberty"Rugers with Douglas barrels. :)'s

Depends on what type of competition you're figuring on getting into. The Criterion barrels are perfectly legal in NRA/CMP competition, although a barrel with a 12" twist may not be legal (sorta goes against "as issued"). Where Criterion barrels or other brands are not legal is in Cast Bullet Association military rifle matches. With the CBA it has to be an original GI issue barrel. I tried to get them to change as there are a lot of other milsurps other than the Krag that Criterion makes barrels for, but some of the older management thinks that either finding a new USGI barrel or making the one you have shoot is part of the game.

Obviously, like new Krag barrels aren't going to be easy to come by. Though I don't doubt some old parts supplier has a few somewhere that he's forgotten about.

A Douglas blank long enough to get a 30" Krag barrel out of would be pretty pricey (if that's the length you need) and then you'd have to get it machined to the proper contour, threaded, extractor groove cut, front sight dovetail cut, and finally rear sight holes drilled and tapped. All that is done for you with the Criterion, and all you need to finish the job is to have the front sight brazed or soldered into the dovetail. I used to think about a Douglas barrel myself, until I saw it'd take an extra long blank and a lot of machining.

[Larry Gibson]

The Criterion barrels are perfectly legal in NRA/CMP competition, although a barrel with a 12" twist may not be legal (sorta goes against "as issued").

I think it's still legal as that is not and "external modification" to which the "as issued" determination generally applies.....always exceptions though.......

Larry Gibson

[mikeym1a]

I think the Numrich #35 catalog list a replacement barrel for the Krag. Wasn't cheap. Don't know if they still have any, though. Their online search engine is the pits. You need the catalog to get the part number, and then look online to see if it's available. The barrel was a repro.

[madsenshooter]

Lots of indexing problems reported with the Numrich barrels, back when they had them. Sights leaning and such.

[Cosmiceyes]

Oh.

I would try shooting it anyway, assuming it is safe and does not disrupt your project. It could be a once-in-a-lifetime tack driver. If you have a broad sense of humor, you could enjoy having a sleeper at the range. Or you might decide to stash the old barrel for a future project where cosmetics do not matter.

Good or bad, you throw it away without testing it, you are throwing away information. The barrel is worth little, but the information could be worth a lot.

I wouldn't throw it away,but I know that the Krags need a longer boolit to feed correctly as somewhere in the 190-200 grain cast. I enjoyed so much hunting with the original carbine I had,and would continue with this new build. I like the original stock,and do not the fancy ones. From child to middle age eyes the military attracts me. Like the Ford model "A"'s. The barrel on the action is 22 inch,and was a original 24 as it serial number starts with 454xxx. So both the barreled action,and just bought complete Krag are NRA modified carbines with 1905 front sights cut 22 inches.
82585

[Cosmiceyes]

The Criterion barrels are perfectly legal in NRA/CMP competition, although a barrel with a 12" twist may not be legal (sorta goes against "as issued").

I think it's still legal as that is not and "external modification" to which the "as issued" determination generally applies.....always exceptions though.......

Larry Gibson
In what type competition Larry? What do I have the luxury of doing?

[Cosmiceyes]

Try here for a new barrel:

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=catalogList&cat=BAR

A very good option. Need a qualified gunsmith to have it changed out. That is where I "know" I would need a who does anyone know,and trust? :)'s

[Cosmiceyes]

Depends on what type of competition you're figuring on getting into. The Criterion barrels are perfectly legal in NRA/CMP competition, although a barrel with a 12" twist may not be legal (sorta goes against "as issued"). Where Criterion barrels or other brands are not legal is in Cast Bullet Association military rifle matches. With the CBA it has to be an original GI issue barrel. I tried to get them to change as there are a lot of other milsurps other than the Krag that Criterion makes barrels for, but some of the older management thinks that either finding a new USGI barrel or making the one you have shoot is part of the game.

Obviously, like new Krag barrels aren't going to be easy to come by. Though I don't doubt some old parts supplier has a few somewhere that he's forgotten about.

A Douglas blank long enough to get a 30" Krag barrel out of would be pretty pricey (if that's the length you need) and then you'd have to get it machined to the proper contour, threaded, extractor groove cut, front sight dovetail cut, and finally rear sight holes drilled and tapped. All that is done for you with the Criterion, and all you need to finish the job is to have the front sight brazed or soldered into the dovetail. I used to think about a Douglas barrel myself, until I saw it'd take an extra long blank and a lot of machining.

PM sent

[Syntax Error]

People who collect US Krags - would you say their barrels by and large are in good condition if you find a rifle, or are they usually pretty messed up?

[Larry Gibson]

In what type competition Larry? What do I have the luxury of doing?

Download the current NRA High Power rules, especially those that apply to older service rifles and milsurp rifles. Most local matches that have milsurp matches follow those rules concerning rifle modification, sometimes loosly though.

I've no idea what matches are available in your area but I have competed in many milsurp matches in the PNW in which Krag rifles were very much in attendance.

Larry Gibson

Here's the CMP rules; note that rebarreling is allowed.

4.0 Firearms, Ammunition and Equipment
This section of the Rules defines the rifles and pistols that may be used by
competitors who participate in CMP As-Issued Military Rifle and Pistol
events.
4.1 As-Issued Military Rifles
As-Issued Military Rifles that are used in CMP-sanctioned matches must comply
with these rules.
4.1.1 General As-Issued Military Rifle Requirements
The following rules apply to all as-issued U. S. and foreign military rifles
unless specific exceptions are noted in these Rules:
• All as-issued military rifles must be rifles that were commonly issued to
U. S. Armed Forces or to foreign military personnel.
• The rifle must be in as-issued condition, with a standard stock and
sights.
• The rifle must conform to the weight and dimensional specifications of
the standard-issue service rifle. Weights, including bayonets, may not
be attached or added to the rifle, but issue oilers or cleaning kits may be
placed in the stock.
• Commercial or replica versions of as-issued military rifles are not
permitted.
• Rebarreling with a barrel of as-issued dimensions is permitted. A
replacement barrel must have the same exact contours and cuts as the
original as-issued barrel.
• Only government-issue parts or government or commercial parts of the
exact same weight and dimensions may be used.
• Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular
military personnel, except that the internal diameter of rear apertures
may be modified. Adjustable apertures, interchangeable inserts and
lens inserts of any type are prohibited. Special purpose sights designed
for sniping or competition are not permitted.
• Rifles may be accurized only by the careful assembly of standard parts.
• Flash suppressors, cheek pads, recoil pads, or stock extensions are
prohibited.
• Bayonets may not be attached to As-Issued Military Rifles during
competitions.
23
• Stocks must be as-issued stocks or replacement stocks with the same
dimensions. Laminated stocks and stocks made of synthetic materials
are prohibited. Broken or cracked as-issued stocks may be repaired
with the use of epoxies or other chemical adhesives, provided the
original as-issued stock dimensions are not changed and no epoxy,
adhesive or reinforcing material is used in or on any of the bedding
surfaces for the rifle action or barrel.

[Cosmiceyes]

Thank you Larry! :)'s

[bob208]

I have a few krags have looked at a lot more over the years. I have seen quite a few worn bores. in fact about half of all the krags I have seen were well worn. I believe that the ones with the real nice bores had been back to the arsenal. it was a common problem it was a combination. of the powder and the bullet gilding metal.

I have seen and shot some rifles that were almost smooth bore out to the rear sight. they still shot pretty good.

[Multigunner]

Cupro-Nickel fouling sealed corrosive primer reside away from cleansing with solvents but not from moist air.
My Krag carbine had such a thick layer of metal fouling and so much rust under it that when I tried to clean it the metal fouling came up from the grooves in long curled strips that tore the bristles off bronze brushes.
I looked around for a gunsmith who could fit a new barrel but in those days none anywhere near would touch a Krag. The square cut threads were not something most gunsmiths could cut, and not common for machine shops. I think they were more worried about liability than anything else.
I finally traded the Carbine to a collector who swore he'd only put it on display and never try to fire it.

Years later a company making replica Krag barrels had advertisements in Shotgun News.

I've heard that relining a Krag barrel is an option, due to its low working pressure. I've heard of owners of early production Garands having shot out barrels relined so as to retain correct era markings.
Some Gew 98 rifles were relined to 7mm , and these seem to have held up okay.

The solvent used to remove Cupro-Nickel fouling was extremely poisonous, and could ruin a barrel if air got to the steel while the solvent was at work.
They mixed the stuff on site as needed and only Non Coms or designated personel were allowed to use it.
They plugged the chamber then stretched a short piece of rubber hose over the muzzle. The solvent was poured in till it partly filled the rubber hose. They checked every so often to make sure the level never dropped below the muzzle, otherwise a corroded tide line would form at interface of solvent and air.

As usual improper cleaning killed more barrels than anything else.

[Buckshot]

.............One of the first things I made when I got a REAL lathe was a Krag action barreling nut (for lack of better nomenclature :-)).

http://www.fototime.com/7755569DC1090D2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AF0B9C80F77D8E0/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/05DD4E041636E96/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E802FCD0E8185CF/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/BC9C6548FC68881/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AFAA00BBB05054B/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/77D4C8B8E6232AD/standard.jpg

The last photo shows the action nut complete except for slitting, and then threading for the two 1/4-20 'cinch bolts'. The Krag action is, as compared to most other common bolt actions a fairly spindly affair with more air then steel in a couple critical positions. Especially where one might want to clamp a common action wrench. Hense this all encircling nut.

............Buckshot

[skeet1]

If I needed a new barrel for my Krag I would go the the new CMP Custom Shop. You guys might like to check out their prices for barreling a karg, 1903 or M1. They look good to me. http://www.thecmp.org/sales/customshop.htm

Ken

[Cosmiceyes]

If I needed a new barrel for my Krag I would go the the new CMP Custom Shop. You guys might like to check out their prices for barreling a karg, 1903 or M1. They look good to me. http://www.thecmp.org/sales/customshop.htm

Ken
This is a splendid idea! Thanks for the link. I liked their barrels from a earlier link,just didn't know where to really go for the complete gunsmith! :)'s

[Cosmiceyes]

.............One of the first things I made when I got a REAL lathe was a Krag action barreling nut (for lack of better nomenclature :-)).

http://www.fototime.com/77D4C8B8E6232AD/standard.jpg

The last photo shows the action nut complete except for slitting, and then threading for the two 1/4-20 'cinch bolts'. The Krag action is, as compared to most other common bolt actions a fairly spindly affair with more air then steel in a couple critical positions. Especially where one might want to clamp a common action wrench. Hense this all encircling nut.

............Buckshot

Your machinist abilities,and knowledge base are something to be proud of. I envy you! The mold you repaired works great! I owe you a beer! :)'s