Tin + Lead vs. Tin + Lead + Antimony

[Ryan_Coke]

Hello!

This is my first post and hopefully an easy question...

Newbie alert: Very interested in casting my own boolits but to date my total number made is zero.

I have lots of plumbers lead, a small amount of Wheel weights and 100 lbs of 63/37 bar solder.

Been looking at the charts/curves for hardness of lead alloys and it seems that I can get the same hardness at least two different ways.
One is Tin + Lead and another is Tin + Lead + Antimony.

I don't have any antimony.

What are the pros and cons to just using tin + lead for 9mm?

Cheers

[NewbieDave007]

First, you do have Antimony in your WW.

Second, look at the calulator in the link below.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators

I haven't cast yet, so I'm not knowledgable to answer your question, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the tin won't bond with the lead or something without the Antimony. Either way you should read the another thing.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

Hope that helps.
Dave

[lwknight]

If you are not looking for hot loads, a 20 to 1 mix might do pretty good.
Two rubs about that.
1. An auto loading pistol requires a certain velocity to cycle.
2. A tin/lead alloy might start out hard enough but will age soften and in a couple years get really soft. That would be awesome for a big heavy slug on big game but probably won't work out so well in the 9mm.

One way to get antimony is from clip on wheel weights that are not zinc or steel . Another more costly and reliable is to buy the 30% "superhard" from rotometals.com. The superhard is actually cheaper antimony than buying pure antimony and its already alloyed. You just need to cut it down to desired formula.

Back to clip weights. They are about 3 percent antimony and you could cut 50/50 with lead and add 2% tin. Then you would have to drop then in water right out of the mold while still hot to harden them.

Personally, I buy the stuff and cast a 2-6-92 tin/antimony/lead for a 15-16 bnh which for me works great in my 9mm

[shadowcaster]

If you are not looking for hot loads, a 20 to 1 mix might do pretty good.
Two rubs about that.
1. An auto loading pistol requires a certain velocity to cycle.
2. A tin/lead alloy might start out hard enough but will age soften and in a couple years get really soft. That would be awesome for a big heavy slug on big game but probably won't work out so well in the 9mm.

One way to get antimony is from clip on wheel weights that are not zinc or steel . Another more costly and reliable is to buy the 30% "superhard" from rotometals.com. The superhard is actually cheaper antimony than buying pure antimony and its already alloyed. You just need to cut it down to desired formula.

Back to clip weights. They are about 3 percent antimony and you could cut 50/50 with lead and add 2% tin. Then you would have to drop then in water right out of the mold while still hot to harden them.

Personally, I buy the stuff and cast a 2-6-92 tin/antimony/lead for a 15-16 bnh which for me works great in my 9mm

While you may get the 20 to 1 mix to work, you may have some headaches along with it. 9mm can be a tough customer.

I agree with lwknight... find some more WW's and water drop or go the Superhard route. The range scrap that that I use comes in right at 15 bhn, and with out adding any tin makes excellent boolits for my 9mm.

Shad

[jsizemore]

2% tin added to lead will give you a BHN 8. 5% tin added will give you BHN 10. 10% tin added will give you BHN slightly less then 11. From 10% and higher added tin you stand the chance of tinning your barrel and you'll play heck getting it out.

2% tin + 3% antimony + 95% lead will give you a BHN 14 which just so happens to be Clip On Wheel Weights ,COWW, with 2% tin added, a great all around casting alloy for general use. Use what your gun likes.

[Defcon-One]

Unfortunately, with the 9mm harder really is better. You need the Antimony. Like jsizemore above, I use 2% tin + 3% antimony + 95% lead. That is pretty close to Clip On Wheel Weights with 2% tin. You can't do much better!

My rule is 25:1 Lead/Tin = Hollow Point Handgun Bullets
2, 3, 95 = All other Handgun Bullets
Lyman #2 = Rifle Bullets (gas checked!)

Those three alloys do it all for me!

[runfiverun]

i'd go the superhard route mix it to approximately ww alloy with the soft lead, then mix the two ww like alloys together.

[Trey45]

Surprised no one has suggested water dropping your bullets from the mold to aid in hardness.

[Ryan_Coke]

Thanks for the many responses, Great forum!

I have heard before that 9mm is difficult to cast and am not surprised to hear many of you suggest adding antimony.

Don't have enough wheel weights to get the % antimony needed so I will order $100 of super hard from roto to get the free shipping. Seems like more than I need right now though.
Thanks for the links, that calculator is very cool and the 182 page instruction book will keep me busy for quite a while :)

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

The purpose of the tin is to ease the surface tension of the melt and make it flow better. This fills out the mold and gives the edges,
lube grooves and crimping grooves sharper definition. Adding more than 2% tin overdoes it and more or less wastes it.
Tin is not cheap so the less you use, the better you come out financially. Antimony, on the other hand, is very difficult to alloy since it
melts at a much higher temp than either tin or lead. What it actually does is form a solution with the molten tin/lead, kinda like sugar
and water. Wheel weights are not the easiest to deal with since they are not always consistent in composition. A good starting point is
about 95% clean WW's (by weight), 2% tin and 3% antimony. This should get you where you need to be. Make small batches until you
find how you need to mix it so you dont tie up needless material. Once you have found a recipe, go to it. Adjust your alloy by varying the
amounts of lead or antimony. Tin does not add appreciable hardness, antimony does.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[sthwestvictoria]

These two tables are from the Lyman Cast handbook 3rd Ed:
82301

82302

However I just use the COWW with 2%tin as above posters suggest, air cooled for 30-30 or oven heat treated then quenched for 35whelen.

[lwknight]

That recipe is old school. It assumes that wheel weights are 6% antimony.
These days 3% is the best you will find and will never make #2 or hardball from that
unless you add some more antimony somehow.

[white eagle]

skip the ww totally try and get absolute known products when trying to produce an alloy if you don't your just guessing
in lieu of ww try and find isotope lead a form of clean ww not exact mind you but closer quantities in the alloy

[Rattus58]

The purpose of the tin is to ease the surface tension of the melt and make it flow better. This fills out the mold and gives the edges,
lube grooves and crimping grooves sharper definition. Adding more than 2% tin overdoes it and more or less wastes it.
Tin is not cheap so the less you use, the better you come out financially. Antimony, on the other hand, is very difficult to alloy since it
melts at a much higher temp than either tin or lead. What it actually does is form a solution with the molten tin/lead, kinda like sugar
and water. Wheel weights are not the easiest to deal with since they are not always consistent in composition. A good starting point is
about 95% clean WW's (by weight), 2% tin and 3% antimony. This should get you where you need to be. Make small batches until you
find how you need to mix it so you dont tie up needless material. Once you have found a recipe, go to it. Adjust your alloy by varying the
amounts of lead or antimony. Tin does not add appreciable hardness, antimony does.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

What do you do when you can't get wheel weights and you have only almost pure lead?

Aloha... :cool:

[RobsTV]

Seems strange to see the term WW so loosely thrown around as if WW means COWW as a general rule. The above posters are correct when they specifically mention COWW for WW with desired antimony. But, about half the WW I get are SOWW.

So just in case there is any confusion, SOWW do not have any antimony and are closer to pure lead.

You have 10 tons of WW and still not have any antimony to speak of. Sorry to be anal but please try to differentiate when discussing WW's.

[jmort]

"What do you do when you can't get wheel weights and you have only almost pure lead?"

"Skip the ww totally try and get absolute known products when trying to produce an alloy if you don't your just guessing"

I use "Magnum shot" at $2.00 per pound delivered which is 5% antimony and probably has some arsinic. Another option is Missouri Bullets "Hardball" 96/2/6 which is around $2.32 per pound delivered. The Magnum Shot would be good for the OP, as he has tin. Either way mix 50/50 with soft lead and add tin to get to 2%.

[shadowcaster]

Surprised no one has suggested water dropping your bullets from the mold to aid in hardness.

The OP only has a small amount of COWW's, therefore not enough antimony for water dropping to do any good. More antimony is needed.

Shad

[mikeym1a]

So, you are a newbie. That is expected with no experience. I could give advice on alloys, ratios, etc, but, I am only going to suggest that you get the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook #3, and read it, especially the section on lead and its alloys. I have looked at the #4 handbook, but prefer the #3. I find it clearer. There is a lot of info there, it is well laid out, and can help you. Get one, read it, and then come back and ask questions if you are confused. We'll try to further that. [smilie=1:

[Four-Sixty]

Don't forget "From Ingot to Target"... I believe chapter 3 has some wonderful (and free) info on alloys.