First time using sawdust

[aspangler]

I tried sawdust today as a flux when I smelted some WW. Worked good but it tended to go to the bottom of the pot. It did what I wanted it to do and get the metals back in the mix but it was a little dirty when I got to the bottom of the pot. Bottom line, it works and is cheap. I cast 55 ingots of pure and 46 of WW for about a total of 100 lbs today. Not bad for a morning.

[shadowcaster]

I really like using sawdust, it does it's job well. I too used to find the pot to be a bit dirty at the bottom until I started doing my final scrape and stir with a steel spoon with a flattened tip. It brings all of the fine dirt and crud up from under the melt and off the bottom and sides. Makes for cleaner ingots which = cleaner boolits.

Shad

[waksupi]

Yep. Need to stir more. Your alloy is being cleaned. Sawdust is not sinking. Specific gravities, you know?

[Wilkie]

I like to light the smoke on fire from the sawdust......best flux on the planet. Smells better than the other fluxes do as well!

[Marcduper]

Hey guys,

Has anyone tried finely shreaded office type paper as a flux?

[lwknight]

Paper will have a lot of clay in it and none of the good stuff in saw dust that the guys like.
For example: Resin.

[Boyscout]

I tried shredded paper one time and it didn't seem to work nearly as well as pine sawdust.

[**oneshot**]

I put enough sawdust to cover the top of the pot. Let it start to smoke a bit then light it then let it burn itself out. I then use a soup laddle to scoop and pour. Scrape the sides and bottom with a metal spoon, skim the top, start pouring or casting.

[Defcon-One]

I stir it while it is burning and after. It gives me the cleanest metal that I can get. I can really see the difference.

Best day of my smelting life was a few years back when I dumped the parrafin wax and started using Pine Sawdust that I had from woodworking projects as my fluxing agent. Free and easy to replace without going anywhere, smells good and it works really well.

[ballistim]

One of the first things I discovered on this forum was the use of sawdust as a "flux", and wish I'd known years ago. I first used it to smelt scrap into ingots and noticed how well it worked. I definitely noticed that I lost less tin and antimony by the hardness of the ingots compared to what was cast using oil & wax, and also noticed less heavy material in the dross left over from the top of the melted alloy. I use wood shavings from my table saw that are mostly pine, and stir with a wooden stick and this will be my way of fluxing from now on. I also noticed how well it works in the pot when casting boolits and keep the layer on top as others have mentioned. I am sold!

[Browningshooter]

Sawdust is the best in my opinion. Just have to stir and scrape a little more.
- will

[1bilmr59]

What is best my planer or table saw. The saw is fine the planer is larger.

[nvbirdman]

A guy near me was cutting firewood for commercial sales and had a pile of sawdust so I took a coffee can there and asked if I could fill it up. I think I have a lifetime supply.

[retread]

I use planer shavings because I can isolate them easily. The saw dust from my table saw is always of mixed of things, including particles board and other nasty stuff. I have the same question as 1bilmir59, should I make the effort to collect good sawdust or are my planer shavings equally up to the task?

[DBH45]

I would like to obtain some Pine sawdust but there are no Lumber Mills in my Town or cabinet shops listed. Any idea where I can obtain some?
Thanks

[303Guy]

How well wood do pine chips/pieces work? What about stirring with a piece of pine? I tried pine sawdust not too long ago for the first time and not only is it a reducing agent, it is a flux. Wax and oil are not fluxes, they are reducing agents and it seems one needs a flux. The difference in yield was quite remarkable.

[Sensai]

I use planer shavings because I can isolate them easily. The saw dust from my table saw is always of mixed of things, including particles board and other nasty stuff. I have the same question as 1bilmir59, should I make the effort to collect good sawdust or are my planer shavings equally up to the task?

I have sawdust, planer shavings and lathe shavings available. I have not noticed a big difference in the three as far as fluxing goes. I mostly use the stuff from the lathe because I love turning perfectly good wood into funny looking round things. Theoretically that shouldn't be as good as the sawdust because of surface area and the fact that it's hardwood rather than pine, but I can't tell the difference except for smell. They all three work much better than anything else I've tried.

[NewbieDave007]

I would like to obtain some Pine sawdust but there are no Lumber Mills in my Town or cabinet shops listed. Any idea where I can obtain some?
Thanks

Go to something like a Wal-Mart, go to the pet section and buy the pine bedding. Somewhere around $3-4 for more than you will need for a while.

[imashooter2]

I like chain saw chips the best.

[Love Life]

I have a friend who cuts firewood for money. I have him save me the saw dust and chips. 100% good pine.

[shadowcaster]

Go to something like a Wal-Mart, go to the pet section and buy the pine bedding. Somewhere around $3-4 for more than you will need for a while.

+1

At my local Walmart I get a 10 pound bag for under 3 dollars.. works great and is already dry.

Shad

[TES]

Find any flooring company that offers sanding and get that. It is finer and dry. They will give it to you for free. Only get the tailings from wood not a refinished floor that has old polyurethane finish mixed in as well.

[cbrick]

Last weekend Goodsteel stopped by my place for a visit. While here he mentioned that he had access to a fancy machine at work that would tell me the percentages of what's in my alloy. I flux exclusively with saw dust and I'm a bit anal about it, plus no wood sticks under the melt just saw dust on top and a stainless spoon to bring everything up to the saw dust. I flux when making ingots from the WW, I flux the pot when I add an ingot to it and I flux after heating up the pot (I keep it full).

We all know that WW alloy is scrap alloy, even new weights are made from used weights and who knows what else such as batteries, it has to have such things as copper, aluminum & more in it. Being anal about the fluxing seems to pay dividends. Here are the results from Goodsteel from samples I gave him cast of clip-on WW with 2% pure tin added.

Pb= 95.1%
Sb= 2.6%
Sn= 2.2%

That's 99.9%, the report didn't say but I assume a good part of the remaining .1% is arsenic. Yep, sawdust does flux not just reduce and it seems it does it very well. Any possible other contaminants were well under 0.1%. It's free, it's plentiful and it works as well as it's billed to work. Gotta love the stuff.

Rick

[jmort]

That is hitting the mark, no doubt. Very nice and useful alloy. Very clean as well, foundry clean. Wish I had access to free lead/coww. If you don't have a handy neighbor like Goodsteel, Rotometals will do an analysis for $50.00. I'm going to try it to test my fluxing skills. You got an A+.

[geargnasher]

Simple chemistry.

I've gone as far as reducing the oxides that my sawdust has removed using more powerful agents and determining the sg of the metal so produced, last time I did it the results were slightly under seven. Must have been a lot of aluminum in that batch.

Gear

[jsizemore]

Last weekend Goodsteel stopped by my place for a visit. While here he mentioned that he had access to a fancy machine at work that would tell me the percentages of what's in my alloy. I flux exclusively with saw dust and I'm a bit anal about it, plus no wood sticks under the melt just saw dust on top and a stainless spoon to bring everything up to the saw dust. I flux when making ingots from the WW, I flux the pot when I add an ingot to it and I flux after heating up the pot (I keep it full).

We all know that WW alloy is scrap alloy, even new weights are made from used weights and who knows what else such as batteries, it has to have such things as copper, aluminum & more in it. Being anal about the fluxing seems to pay dividends. Here are the results from Goodsteel from samples I gave him cast of clip-on WW with 2% pure tin added.

Pb= 95.1%
Sb= 2.6%
Sn= 2.2%

That's 99.9%, the report didn't say but I assume a good part of the remaining .1% is arsenic. Yep, sawdust does flux not just reduce and it seems it does it very well. Any possible other contaminants were well under 0.1%. It's free, it's plentiful and it works as well as it's billed to work. Gotts love the stuff.

Rick

Maybe next time you could compare pre-flux and post-flux samples?

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

Was already mentioned but worth going over again. If you use pine sawdust, make sure its from pine lumber and not plywood or particle board. The ply/part has resin glue in it and lets off some very obnoxious fumes. I'm not sure they are not harmful as well.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[TES]

Jerry I miss SC. What part?

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

North Augusta, just across the river from Augusta GA

[cbrick]

Maybe next time you could compare pre-flux and post-flux samples?

That would be interesting BUT . . . There's always a "but" isn't there. I took all 800 pounds of my clip-on WW and blended it all into one homogenous lot fluxing away as I went a few years back. Down to about 500 pounds of that now.

I do have another sample I would like for him to test. Many, many dozens of fluxing's it took to fill up two coffee cans with the ash, I melted out the metal from this used flux and made a four pound ingot with it. Wish I would have thought about that ingot while he was here, I would love to know what's in that. Gotta be a lot of lead given the size & weight of it but what else is in it? Curious minds want to know.

Rick

[jmort]

"...but what else is in it?"

Yes, it would be nice to know what was in there.

[jsizemore]

I would donate a SFRB full of sorted COWW to a "scientific" look at alloy content before and after. If we could get some others from around the country to donate, maybe we could prevail upon Rick to conduct the experiment.

[cbrick]

I would donate a SFRB full of sorted COWW to a "scientific" look at alloy content before and after. If we could get some others from around the country to donate, maybe we could prevail upon Rick to conduct the experiment.

Hhmmm . . . Rick is confused. I don't have the equipment to analyze the alloy, that was Goodsteel that took it to work with him that did this, I only supplied the sample.

Rick

[Bohica793]

I would like to obtain some Pine sawdust but there are no Lumber Mills in my Town or cabinet shops listed. Any idea where I can obtain some?
Thanks

Go to Home Depot or Lowes to the section where they cut lumber. Take a couple of plastic bags with you and ask for their sawdust. They usually are happy to get rid of it.

[jmort]

Is $3 or $4 too much for a large supply of pine wood/pet bedding/pet litter? You will get a mess from home depot and 100% pine for a small amount of $$$.

[jsizemore]

That would be interesting BUT . . . There's always a "but" isn't there. I took all 800 pounds of my clip-on WW and blended it all into one homogenous lot fluxing away as I went a few years back. Down to about 500 pounds of that now.

I do have another sample I would like for him to test. Many, many dozens of fluxing's it took to fill up two coffee cans with the ash, I melted out the metal from this used flux and made a four pound ingot with it. Wish I would have thought about that ingot while he was here, I would love to know what's in that. Gotta be a lot of lead given the size & weight of it but what else is in it? Curious minds want to know.

Rick

Sounded like Goodsteel was in close proximity to you and you are "anal" about your fluxing with a proven clean alloy. Since your down to 500lbs, it sounded like a win-win for you and the rest of the board.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

"Go to Home Depot or Lowe;s to the section where they cut lumber. Take a couple of plastic bags with you and ask for their sawdust. They usually are happy to get rid of it."

Be careful about using this sawdust. If there is a plywood or particle board sawdust in there, the glue will release some nasty fumes that MAY be dangerous to your lungs as well as stink. Lowe's and Home Depot are not always careful with what they cut. Better to find a home or job site where the crew is framing and cutting studs from 2x4. That's the kind of sawdust you want and need. Most likely they would be glad to have you cart it off.

[Garyshome]

Great stuff! Got a whole pile of it under my table saw![That's where i store it] and the price is RIGHT!!!

[bangerjim]

Wood saw dust (any kind) works. Just do not use man-made wood products due to the chemicals in there. I use walnut/alder/pine.

On smelting, the last time I use wood and a hunk of paraffin candle wax. The two together do the final cleaning/fluxing and reduce any tin and others back in there. Final pours are 100% clean.

banger

[cbrick]

Banger, if you drop the paraffin wax from your flux the only things you'll miss is the extra smoke and extra gunk in your pot. The sawdust both reduces and fluxes while the wax can only reduce, it cannot flux. Using just saw dust your alloy will be just as clean and as a side benefit so will your pot.

Rick

[capt.hollis]

Man this must be the penny pincher thread , lol. Just go buy some chipped pet bedding material for pets . A 10 lb sack will last forever ! $7 , and you won't be having to sweep up sawdust, and looking for a builder , lol. You guys.

[brassrat]

Someday I may know wth you guys are doin. :razz:

[cbrick]

Sounded like Goodsteel was in close proximity to you and you are "anal" about your fluxing with a proven clean alloy. Since your down to 500lbs, it sounded like a win-win for you and the rest of the board.

Goodsteel is about two hours from me, he was passing through this area when he stopped by. From here we drove over to winelovers brand new house & donated some lead to the sand birm backstop he put in.

Anyway, please explain what sort of testing you had in mind and how you wanted to go about it.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel is about two hours from me, he was passing through this area when he stopped by. From here we drove over to winelovers brand new house & donated some lead to the sand birm backstop he put in.

Anyway, please explain what sort of testing you had in mind and how you wanted to go about it.

Rick

And a very good time it was! Wish I could have stayed a few days. I sure wish you guys were closer, there's no telling what trouble we would get into!

[oscarflytyer]

Tried the cedar pet bedding. Flamed up and smoked. Didn't care for the theatrics... I now just stir the pot well with a simple pain stick. Someone suggested that awhile back. Has worked very well for me. very simple, can get them dirt cheap or free. They last a little while. Combo flux and stir stick! ymmv

[jsizemore]

Goodsteel is about two hours from me, he was passing through this area when he stopped by. From here we drove over to winelovers brand new house & donated some lead to the sand birm backstop he put in.

Anyway, please explain what sort of testing you had in mind and how you wanted to go about it.

Rick

Test a pre-flux ingot and a post-flux ingot. Post results. We can't say the bad stuff was removed with sawdust unless we prove it was in there beforehand. No? Yes? Maybe somebody has done this before, I've never seen it. Maybe flux some with wax to judge it's value? Maybe someone else has some ideas.

[CountryBoy19]

I have a few questions re: procedure when fluxing with sawdust....

First of all, how much do you use for a pot of say 80lbs when melting COWW to ingots?
Do you flux before skimming the clips to try to get some of the metal and metal oxides to release from the clips? I've found that I'm always taking a lot of metal out of the pot with my clips... probably around 1/4-1/2 lb for every 80 lb pot I melt... I've found that fluxing before skimming the clips seems to help a small bit but makes it harder to skim the clips out then... it's also hard to stir the pot to flux with all the clips in it...

After the sawdust burns off and you start pouring ingots do you leave the ash on top to form a protective "barrier" to keep the metal from re-oxidizing? I do but every once in a while I get a small bit of ash in an ingot. Is leaving the ash on top doing more harm than good?

[mold maker]

I add a fist full of course pine sawdust to the cold pot of WWs. As they melt I stir and remove clips with a i/4" screen (kitchen tool frrom WallyWorld) strainer. With the clips removed I add a second fist full of sawdust and as soon as it is well charred I reduce the heat and stir vigurously with a large kitchen spoon (again from WW) and scrape the sides and bottom with a ss kitchen splatula. I use the same kitchen spoon to carefully remove the light weight floating dross, and imadiately start to fill ingot molds. If the surface starts to show oxides, I add a small amount of sawdust and again stir and remove.
Since I always try to start with the inch of material left from the last smelt and never remove that same ammount, I cant say how much sawdust I use or how much lead it processes.
The dross I dispose of is very light weight and thus can't contain much lead/tin/antimony.
All I can say is I have very clean ingots that work well in my bottom pour pots without stoppages or drips.

[cbrick]

Test a pre-flux ingot and a post-flux ingot. Post results. We can't say the bad stuff was removed with sawdust unless we prove it was in there beforehand. No? Yes? Maybe somebody has done this before, I've never seen it. Maybe flux some with wax to judge it's value? Maybe someone else has some ideas.

Could be interesting but we would first need to get Goodsteel on board and he would also need to get the folks he works with to do the testing.

I have never cast an ingot without fluxing but I think I have about 1/4 buckets of raw weights so I guess I could. I have never used wax to flux but I do have some beeswax & old paraffin candles so I guess I could.

I have never seen such a test posted here either, maybe it was done and I just didn't see it.

Let's see,
An ingot from WW not fluxed.
An ingot from WW fluxed with wax.
An ingot from WW fluxed with sawdust.
My ingot from alloy melted out of used sawdust flux.

What else? Open to ideas here.

Whatchya think Tim? Sound like something you would/could do? Could be interesting.

Rick

[cbrick]

And a very good time it was! Wish I could have stayed a few days. I sure wish you guys were closer, there's no telling what trouble we would get into!

Hhmmm . . . We are close, tis you that is far. :mrgreen:

Rick

[jmort]

"Could be interesting."

I'm sure it will be interesting. If Goodsteel can't do it, Rotometals could do four samples for around $200.00. If we get 10 people to chip in $20 or so it would happen.

[Airman Basic]

One problem I see, when I'm smelting wheelweights, all the carbon based junk on the weights and the bucket kinda fluxes the mix pretty well.

[MBTcustom]

"Could be interesting."

I'm sure it will be interesting. If Goodsteel can't do it, Rotometals could do four samples for around $200.00. If we get 10 people to chip in $10 or so it would happen.

How can you, a fully fledged booliteer, speak of spending money in such egregious quantities?
The battle cry of boolitry is to get it for free, or so close to it, that you are hated by some, and pitied by others.
If we needed a space station, we'd find somebody out there that just happened to have a spare they aren't using and would give us for a 12 pack, if we haul it out of their territory.
LOL!

In that spirit, I will gladly do this. However, I just schmelted my last 4 bucket's of WW's and I have none left, so I need one of you fellers to pony up the test subjects.
All I need is a dollop the size of a dime, or perhaps a 30 caliber boolit cast from the test media.

Just to be clear, I have a friend that does these tests for me, and I don't want to wear out that avenue, so I am willing to do this test but I don't want 10 folks asking me for free tests. If it were mine to do with what I pleased, that would be different, but as it is, I have to ask humbly, and hope I don't wear out my welcome savvy?

[cbrick]

1> I'll melt some clip-on WW's and only skim the crapolla of the top.

2>I'll take some of that same WW and flux with wax.

3>WW alloy fluxed with saw dust.

4> Some of the ingot I have that was melted out of used saw dust flux.

5> An alloy I have & used for 12 gauge slugs (soft) and also fluxed with saw dust.

I'll ship these to Tim (need mailing address) with each sample marked with a magic marker as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I'll keep notes on which is which and post the results when I get them from Tim.

Also, instead of making enough of each of these to put enough in the pot to cast 30 cal boolits, then drain & clean the pot, melt more alloy & pre-heat the mold, start all over 5 different times, I'll just pour 1 pound ingots as I prepare each and send them. Is all that ok Tim?

Am I missing anything? Anyone have other/better ideas?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

It would be best to take the samples as the smelt is in progress. Just stick your ladle in there, swish it around, pull it out, and pour a small puddle on a piece of clean steel about the size of a dime.
Put it in a ziplock bagy and write the particulars on it. Continue with the next sample etc.

[jmort]

This should be good, no pun intended. Very interested in the results.

[fecmech]

pour a small puddle on a piece of clean steel about the size of a dime.
Turn an aluminum pop can upside down and pour in the depression, makes a nice clean test piece.

[MBTcustom]

Not so much. I need a flat bottom, and I will trim the top flat with a clean file.
Otherwise, I'm going to clean my Kurt vice with acetone, and smash the sample flat before I file it.

[Reloader06]

:popcorn:

[cbrick]

Oops . . . Hold everything. I knew I had about a 1/4 of a 5 gallon bucket of weights & I do but . . .

There's always a but isn't there?

I just went out & dug out the bucket . . . All that's in the bucket is stick-on weights.

Gonna need somebody with clip-on weights to cough up some. All of the clip-on weights I have are in 5 pound ingots that were well fluxed when I did the smelting.

Rick

[jsizemore]

Rick, How much COWW's do you need?

[jsizemore]

One of the problems I thought of originally was if the sample was too small or from a particular part of the country it would'nt truly represent the entire country. I was worried that the sample WOULDN'T be contaminated with undesirable elements that might be encountered across the country. I live in a mid-atlantic state with a large population growth. I'm sure I have WW from everywhere on the eastern seaboard and east of the Mississippi. I'd be glad to send a MFRB of sorted COWW to draw a sample. If we could get a few folks to make a small donation each from out west our cross country test would be complete. Or intentionally contaminate the sample before fluxing. What do ya think?

[cbrick]

Well, enough to cover the bottom of my smelting pot deep enough that it could be fluxed, stirred & then ladled out. How much is that? Dunno, I've never tried dealing with a small quantity like this, when I fire up the smelting pot it has 80-100 pounds in it. Don't need anywhere near that much but how much is in the bottom that it can be worked with?

Rick

[jsizemore]

MFRB or LFRB?

[cbrick]

I can cover the saw dust fluxed alloy, already have that. All of my weights came from in & around the Los Angeles area including truck tire stores so there is a pretty good chance they are from all over the country. We need enough for un-fluxed WW and fluxed with wax.

Rick

[jsizemore]

PM on the way.

[geargnasher]

I just smelted down all of mine a few months ago, all I have is sorted truck weights and a few stickies or I'd be glad to volunteer samples from and 80lb batch of clippy weights. You guys are going to do us all quite a service if this comes to fruition.

Gear

[cbrick]

jsizemore just sent me a PM, he is sending a medium flat rate box of clip-ons. If we could get another medium box from a different part of the country to blend it all together & see what comes of that.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

If twer me, I wouldn't blend it Rick. Leave the two batches separate and let's do the same test to both batches. It's a little more of a PITA, but it would tell us a lot more if we had two different batches.

[Reloader06]

Let me see what I have outside tomorrow morning. How much do you think you'll need?

Matt

[MBTcustom]

I would think a small flat rate box would do it.
Rick?

[cbrick]

If twer me, I wouldn't blend it Rick. Leave the two batches separate and let's do the same test to both batches. It's a little more of a PITA, but it would tell us a lot more if we had two different batches.

I agree but I was thinking about the imposition of you & your friend at work. Leave them separate it is.

Rick

[Echo]

I would like to obtain some Pine sawdust but there are no Lumber Mills in my Town or cabinet shops listed. Any idea where I can obtain some?
Thanks

Any Lowe's or Home Depot or whatever that has a saw will have a garbage can full of sawdust to give away.

[jsizemore]

MFRB of COWW headed to Rick. Can't wait to hear the results. I'm glad we have all these resources available.

[jmort]

Thanks are in order to goodsteel, cbrick, and jsizemore. This is all good.

[cbrick]

Just got a PM from jsizemore, he sent 40 pounds. wow, that was generous of him.

I'll split that up into different lot's and use different fluxing for each lot such as no fluxing, fluxing with wax, saw dust etc. and send the samples off the Goodsteel.

If anyone else has any other ideas/suggestions on fluxing I'm all ears. We have one shot at getting this right and we all stand to learn a lot from this.

Rick

[jmort]

My suggestion would be to use some stock and standard pine shavings/dust and bee's wax. Common products readily available to everyone at low cost.

[cbrick]

40 pounds of well sorted & pretty clean clip-on wheel weights arrived yesterday from jsizemore, thank you sir, that was very generous.

Today I spent 7 hours creating samples to be tested. I should get them to the PO to go to Goodsteel tomorrow.

Here is what will be tested, 8 different samples from 3 different alloys. Once we get the results back I'll post what each sample is, how it was processed & the test results of each.

All clip-on weights were from the same source so it was all melted at once. From this there is a sample with zero fluxing, nothing more than crud & clips moved out of the way and a boolit ladled. There are samples from this fluxed with wax, saw dust & Marvalux. After the initial melt & that sample taken without flux the melt was poured into ingots. Some of the ingots were re-melted & another flux done & then that alloy poured back into ingots. Fresh, un-fluxed ingots for the next sample etc. thus each sample has only one type of fluxing done to it.

Next, I had a four pound ingot of mystery alloy that I had melted out of used saw dust flux a few years back, I fluxed that ingot when I made it but not today, I melted it & poured a sample.

I had about 50 pounds of raw stick-on weights & 2 samples came from this, one with no fluxing just the crud moved out of the way and a sample poured & a second sample that I fluxed with sawdust.

Hope I didn't miss something obvious, this is a golden opportunity for a good education for all of us and a huge thank you is owed to Goodsteel and his friend at work.

Rick

[Rooster59]

Great ideas for this newbie melter/caster.

One thing, my sawdust sometimes contains treated lumber too. Should I avoid treated and only use untreated pine dust?

[cbrick]

I've used plywood a great many times with really good ventilation but I think even I would avoid the pressure treated stuff. Just can't be good aside from how really horrible that stuff smells burning, I got some in the yard burn pile once, unforgettable experience.

Rick

[jsizemore]

Great ideas for this newbie melter/caster.

One thing, my sawdust sometimes contains treated lumber too. Should I avoid treated and only use untreated pine dust?

Treated lumber is treated with either
Old treatment-chromated copper arsenate
new treatment-copper azole
I know old timers that burn either in outdoor furnaces or fire pits. I don't hang around when they do. After a day of cutting treated lumber I've got burning around my eyes from the fine sawdust.

[BruceB]

BEWARE pressure-treated wood products (and maybe even some other types of "treated" wood.... perhaps exterior-grade plywood?).

In at least some of the "treatments" involved, ARSENIC is a major component. I worked at a Canadian gold mine where arsenic was a major by-product, to the tune of many tons per year, and we sold it by the truckload to wood-treating plants in the USA..... many truckloads.

This was basically pure arsenic tri-oxide....having THAT in the atmosphere of your casting shop would not be conducive to a long and healthy life.

[Baryngyl]

I was wondering about wood pellets for a pellet stove, going to try them on my next melt.
They can be had for around $4.00 to $6.00 a 40 pound bag at a lot of stores.
They do not contain any glues or anything, just compressed saw dust.



Michael Grace

[cbrick]

The deed is done! 9 samples sent off to Goodsteel and are in the loving, caring hands of uncle Sam's civil servant's, they said he would have them on Monday. Then whenever his friend at work has the opportunity/time to do the testing and we will know what they really make WW's out of and what 3 completely different flux type do to it.

Whatever the outcome it will probably change little in my casting, I'm more than pleased with both how my alloy casts and shoots in a wide variety of firearms plus I have over 500 pounds of it but . . . Well, curious minds just have to know.

Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be.

Rick

[geargnasher]

:awesome::awesome::awesome:

Gear

[MBTcustom]

It aint done yet.
Everybodies really going to be scratching their heads if the sawdust makes no difference whatsoever. It could be that it just helps all the crud mix really well and has no effect on the elemental components of the alloy at all.
The plaguing problem with every facet of cast boolits is that we need to run million dollar experiments on a shoestring budget. I think God set it up that way to give us a hobby that never gets boring.
I mean seriously, can any of you see dropping cast boolits and picking up stamp collecting?

[btroj]

Only if I can find a way to get stamps to cycle in my 1911

[Reloader06]

"Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be."

Absolutely. Thank You too Rick.

"I mean seriously, can any of you see dropping cast boolits and picking up stamp collecting?"

Ah..... NO

[cbrick]

Everybodies really going to be scratching their heads if the sawdust makes no difference whatsoever. It could be that it just helps all the crud mix really well and has no effect on the elemental components of the alloy at all.

That's not likely though. Look at the results of my tested WW that was fluxed with sawdust, 99.9% Pb/Sb/Sn (post #23 in this thread). We all know that WW's are made from scrap alloy's including old WW, batteries and who knows what else. For the sample to come out 99.9% . . . well, something got it that way.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That's true, but that was not a full spectrum analysis. The machine has two ways of measuring an alloy. The first way is where you tell it to look for certain alloys, and ignore anything less than .1% and it will roll it into the other numbers as an average. The FSA gives you the full monte and will let you know every element present down to .01%. The guy goes and takes three measurements of each sample and gives an average of each figure. That's why I was asking him specifically if he would mind doing the FSA on these samples, and was hoping he wouldn't mind, because it is a royal PITA for him. Fortunately, he's a very patient analytical type and a first rate feller, because like he said, "He likes science".
When he did your sample, he assumed I wanted my usual test. Back when I felt I had a good feel for things, I quit asking him for the FSA because I was not concerned with the 1% of the alloy that covered half the periodic table, and was only looking for the holy trinity (PB, SN, SB) to get my alloys dialed in.
Sorry about that Rick. I didn't want to ask him to do the test again on your alloys (beggars cant be choosers ya know) and I thought we were only after the tin/antimony content anyway, so I let it go.

[cbrick]

Well, we'll soon know. This should answer a lot of questions and probably create some new ones.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That's always the way it goes. Everything is so cut and dried when you have just a fuzzy understanding of what you are looking at. Turn up the resolution and you start seeing a whole new world!
I am working towards having the highest tech shooting lab in the country someday. I want to have my own lead tester, a high speed video camera, Ohler shooting lab, and the most precision rifle shop in the country. If I had those tools all in one spot, I could learn more about the cast lead boolit in a year, than has been found out in the past 100 by the shooting sports industry. I really want to do that. If I had the capability, I would write it down and post it so that everyone could make use of the data.
But as usual, I'm a broke philanthropist. LOL!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be. Rick

THANKS !
awaiting anxiously !

[jsizemore]

I'm not under the delusion that any of this will change how an oldtimer treats his favorite fluxing procedure. Folks will hold onto the notion that " I've always done it this way, so that's how it's going to stay" regardless of evidence to the contrary. I'm behind this to help the new caster wade through all the conflicting ideas about what works and what is wasted effort. There's enough vague info out there, however well intentioned, to confuse even the brightest beginner. Look at all the various meanings for the word "flux" and it's easy to understand how someone will be confused and stop casting in short order.

[cbrick]

No, anyone happy with the results they have been getting for years probably wouldn't/shouldn't change their methods. My main interest is what was in the original alloy and what wasn't in that alloy after each of the various fluxing's. In other words, what does various fluxes do or not do and how well does each do it.

As for the make up of wheel weight alloy, this is one sample from the eastern seaboard region. Odds are very good that another sample from the very same mfg.'s would vary somewhat. Wheel weights are not made from a specific recipe, they are made from what the mfg. has on hand at the time the specific lot of weights are made based on market prices, availability, scrap on hand etc. In reality though it should still give a reasonable idea of the alloy, at least reasonable for boolit casting and percentages should be ball park close for the alloy many of us use.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

All nine samples have been carefully prepped and given to the man that runs the tester for a full spectrum analysis.
I am completely unaware of which sample is which (I sure as heck hope Rick remembers!) so this should be a totally blind test.
I have smashed each sample boolit to .125 inches, then marked the sample number on the back, and filed the face of each sample and cleaned with electronics grade, pure alcohol.
The file was cleaned and scrubbed in alcohol and a clean brush between each sample to avoid cross contamination. (ie each sample was filed with a clean fresh surface)
Also, the precision vice jaws were cleaned between each crush.
This is the best I can do to set up an accurate test. There is not even a finger print on the test surface, and the guy testing will be wearing nitrile gloves to remove them from their sterilized envelopes.
I hope the results will be accepted with good will, and trust.

[rattletrap1970]

Boy I'd like to have him test my lead. Just so I have some kind of Idea where I'm at. I have a lot of lead from when I first got started in casting about 2 years ago or so. I think I'm better at the smelting process now, but I would be very curious how much (if any) zinc accidentally ended up in mine and how much more good lead I'd have to add for it not to matter. I mean, I think my bullets come out looking pretty good, but, I'm curious.


Last weekend Goodsteel stopped by my place for a visit. While here he mentioned that he had access to a fancy machine at work that would tell me the percentages of what's in my alloy. I flux exclusively with saw dust and I'm a bit anal about it, plus no wood sticks under the melt just saw dust on top and a stainless spoon to bring everything up to the saw dust. I flux when making ingots from the WW, I flux the pot when I add an ingot to it and I flux after heating up the pot (I keep it full).

We all know that WW alloy is scrap alloy, even new weights are made from used weights and who knows what else such as batteries, it has to have such things as copper, aluminum & more in it. Being anal about the fluxing seems to pay dividends. Here are the results from Goodsteel from samples I gave him cast of clip-on WW with 2% pure tin added.

Pb= 95.1%
Sb= 2.6%
Sn= 2.2%

That's 99.9%, the report didn't say but I assume a good part of the remaining .1% is arsenic. Yep, sawdust does flux not just reduce and it seems it does it very well. Any possible other contaminants were well under 0.1%. It's free, it's plentiful and it works as well as it's billed to work. Gotta love the stuff.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Sorry buddy, I think I just used up my last "gimme".
It's asking a lot to have him run 9 samples, but I think this is important enough to throw a hail marry.

[rattletrap1970]

Would this be something he'd take a small donation for? Or, If not, what is the name of the testing he's doing to find an outfit that won't break the bank finding out?

[felix]

Bravo! Hurray! ManyThanks! are all directed to the folks involved in this experiment. We on this board are indeed lucky to have such dedicated members who are capable and are able to participate in this endeavor. ... felix

[rattletrap1970]

Umm. did I miss something?

[cbrick]

Umm. did I miss something?

rattletrap, see post #53 from this thread.


Just to be clear, I have a friend that does these tests for me, and I don't want to wear out that avenue, so I am willing to do this test but I don't want 10 folks asking me for free tests. If it were mine to do with what I pleased, that would be different, but as it is, I have to ask humbly, and hope I don't wear out my welcome savvy?

Rick

[rattletrap1970]

I'm sorry I implied I wanted it done for free. But I believe I followd up that I'd pay. I would, if the opportunity came up, like to pay just to see if there are any major flaws in my casting material.

[cbrick]

All nine samples have been carefully prepped and given to the man that runs the tester for a full spectrum analysis.
I am completely unaware of which sample is which (I sure as heck hope Rick remembers!) so this should be a totally blind test.

What? :shock: You didn't keep track? :shock: :shock:

Well, just so happens that I wouldn't trust all 9 samples to memory so I kept careful notes as each sample was prepared and numbered.

Now if I could only remember what I did with those notes! :groner:

Rick

[cbrick]

Oh, and as a just in case or a oops or ah chit . . . Each sample was made from un-fluxed alloy and then poured into ingots after the sample was taken, each of those ingots was numbered the same as the sample and I have all the numbered ingots set aside waiting for the results.

If there are no problems I'll blend them all together and give them my usual saw dust fluxing (see post #23), box them up and return the alloy to jsizemore.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Now, some of these samples you sent are the same alloy having been fluxed correct?

[jmort]

"Anyone interested in these results should shoot a big thank you to jsizemore, Goodsteel and his friend at work. Without any one of them this would never have come to be."

Thanks to all concerned and cbrick
This is most interesting. Missed the recent posts, hence the belated thanks.

[cbrick]

Now, some of these samples you sent are the same alloy having been fluxed correct?

Yes, of course. That's the prime reason/purpose. You've not been paying attention huh?

All of the clip-on weights from jsizemore were melted into one sample. A sample was taken from this before fluxing, all of it was then poured into 5 pound ingots. A few of these ingots were re-melted and fluxed with one of the fluxes, this alloy was poured back into ingots and numbered the same as the sample. More un-fluxed ingots were melted and fluxed with a different flux, this was then poured back into ingots and numbered and so on.

That is how I managed to spend 7 hours and get 35 boolits (samples) cast. :mrgreen:

RIck

[aspangler]

WOW!! When I started this thread I had no idea it would turn out like this! Thanks to Goodsteel and his friend and to cbrick and all the others involved with this. I will be very interested in the results of all this testing. Thanks to all of you. This is a GREAT board and I am proud to be a member of it.

[cbrick]

I tried sawdust today as a flux when I smelted some WW. Worked good but it tended to go to the bottom of the pot. It did what I wanted it to do and get the metals back in the mix but it was a little dirty when I got to the bottom of the pot. Bottom line, it works and is cheap. I cast 55 ingots of pure and 46 of WW for about a total of 100 lbs today. Not bad for a morning.

Oh yeah, I've been meaning to reply to your OP. I can assure you that whatever you found on the bottom of the pot it was NOT sawdust. Nothing you could do could get sawdust placed on top of the melt to the bottom. Stirring with a charred wood stick may leave something trapped under the melt but you'll not get saw dust, fresh or burned to the bottom. Stir with a stainless spoon and bring the alloy up to the saw dust to eliminate whatever is on the bottom.

Rick

[Chill Wills]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Thank you to all for the time , $ and effort!

I assume that as this is a favor, we should be patient for a while....

Many thanks again!
Michael Rix

[wch]

[url]www.lasc.us/] "From Ingot to target":Fryxell and friends will teach you about fluxes and fluxing.

[cbrick]

www.lasc.us- Fryxell will teach you about fluxes and fluxing.

Glen is aware of this thread and like the rest of us is waiting to see the results, I received the following PM from him.

Very interesting! I look forward to seeing your results. I predict that the main difference observed with sawdust will be reduced levels of the electropositive metals, like calcium, aluminum, magnesium, etc. Glen

[MBTcustom]

I've read your stuff Glen. Since you're following this thread, I just want to take a second and tell you how much I appreciate "from ingot to target". You did us all a great service with that work, so on behalf of every booliteer who has benefited from your hard work, Let me say: "Thank you!"

[cbrick]

Disappointing results from the lead testing. Tim says his friend told him he did the full test on all the samples but I just can't wrap my mind around clip-on WW that has never been fluxed being perfectly clean. In fact none of the three different fluxes used did anything at all to the clip-on's. I don't know what might be learned from this but here are the results, what was tested and how . . .

Samples #1, #2. #3, #4 are all exactly the same alloy, clip-on weights from jsizemore on the eastern seaboard, different fluxing for each of the first four samples.

Sample #1 > All 40 pounds of the clip-on weights were melted in one batch NO fluxing of any kind, simply the clips & crud moved out of the way and a boolit poured by ladle. Clips & crud skimmed off the top and all of this alloy was then poured into 5 pound ingots & marked as not fluxed, sample #1.

Pb 96.32
Sb 2.89
Sn .79

Sample #2 > Three of the 5 pound un-fluxed ingots were melted and fluxed with beeswax. This was then poured into 3 ingots and ingots marked as Sample #2.

Pb 96.02
Sb 2.75
Sn 1.22

Sample #3 > Three more of the un-fluxed ingots were melted and fluxed with sawdust. The alloy was poured back into ingots & ingots marked sample #3.

Pb 96.36
Sb 2.63
Sn 1.00

Sample #4 > More un-fluxed ingots melted and fluxed with Marvalux, alloy returned to 5 pound ingots & the ingots marked sample #4.

Pb 95.98
Sb 3.03
Sn .99

Sample #5 > I had melted out of used sawdust flux a 4 pound ingot a few years ago. It was of course fluxed when I made the ingot, it did after all come out of used sawdust flux but it wasn't fluxed again, simply a boolit ladled from it.

Pb 94.05
Sb 2.77
Sn 2.32

Sample #6 > Is from straight stick-on WW with 2% pure bar tin added & fluxed with sawdust, the sample was a 12 gauge sabot slug that I had previously poured.

Pb 97.18
Sb .29
Sn 2.53

Sample #7 > I had a quarter bucket of stick-on weights from the west coast, these were melted and fluxed with sawdust.

Pb 99.58
Sb .12
Sn .3

Sample #8 > The same stick-on weights from sample #7 with NO fluxing. Simply melted and the crud pushed out of the way and the sample poured.

Pb 95.44
Sn .56
Sulfur 4.00

Sample #9 > A few years ago a friend on the west coast gave me a piece of ballast, I melted it down into 10 five pound ingots & fluxed it with sawdust. It was again fluxed with sawdust when the sample was poured.

Pb 98.33
Sulfur 1.67

As a comparison test, from post #23 of this thread is the results of my clip-on weights from the west coast with 2% Sn added and fluxed with sawdust that was the simple test, not a full spectrum test as this was supposed to be.

Pb= 95.1%
Sb= 2.6%
Sn= 2.2%

There are some things interesting here, the un-fluxed stick-on weights had 4.0% sulfur and fluxed with sawdust the sulfur was 0.0%.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Indeed, very disappointing for the purpose of our demonstration, but other things can be learned from these results. Check out the amount of tin in those COWW eh? I got chewed up one side and down the other a year ago for casually suggesting that COWW have barely 1% tin and often less than that.

I really apologize for the results, but honestly, the one we need to be looking at is the SOWW and the sulfur content. See, the feller brought down the results and I could see right off there weren't very many figures in the test. I asked him in the politest way I could if he had done the FSA, and he said he had, but that there was nothing really noteworthy in the test except the holy trinity. He said the graph was basically a flat line, except for one huge blip for Pb and two teensy weensy ones for Sb and Sn. He apologized and said he was very sorry, but he can't make there be impurities when there are none. He said the only trace that seemed like it might be worth mentioning was a tiny trace of gold, but it was not reproducible and was less than .2% when it did show up. I asked about sulfur, nickle, copper, cadmium, zinc? He said there was no discernible trace there at all.
From this I have to conclude that we just got a really clean batch of COWW. Maybe they have strict controls out there on the east coast that require new alloy or something? Who knows?
I do know that we needed an alloy that had large amounts of impurities in it, in order to see the effect sawdust had, and we assumed that COWW of any kind would give us that.
Welcome to my world! I had many many samples tested before, and the results were never what I thought they would be. In fact, only by keeping the strictest control of my alloy did I get to the point where I could mix a batch and it would come out reading what it was supposed to.

All I can do is apologize.

[geargnasher]

Like all the kids say today, "it is what it is". Thank all of you so much for contributing and doing this!

Not all boolit metal is sourced from wheel weights, and I can tell from my own, kitchen-counter chemistry that there is often stuff other than the Trinity in the filthy scrap lead alloys I scrounge up. I can tell by casting quality and by determining what's in the skimmed ash.

Gear

[jsizemore]

In post #62 one of my initial concerns was what if there wasn't contamination of the sample and then no results of various types of fluxing materials. I didn't persue this because I thought it would be dishonest to intentionally contaminate a sample if it wasn't what the regular caster would find at the scrapyard, or tire shop. I feel like an oppurtunity has slipped by and an end to the fluxing squabble is no nearer. It's like finding Bigfoot, an end to Government borrowing, the Bermuda Triangle and how you flux is still waiting to be answered. Good luck with your pet method.

[MBTcustom]

In post #62 one of my initial concerns was what if there wasn't contamination of the sample and then no results of various types of fluxing materials. I didn't persue this because I thought it would be dishonest to intentionally contaminate a sample if it wasn't what the regular caster would find at the scrapyard, or tire shop. I feel like an oppurtunity has slipped by and an end to the fluxing squabble is no nearer. It's like finding Bigfoot, an end to Government borrowing, the Bermuda Triangle and how you flux is still waiting to be answered. Good luck with your pet method.

Now now, not all of the alloy up yonder was uncontaminated. The clean alloy was clean before and after, which tells us nothing, but the stuff that had been contaminated with sulfur was greatly reduced. That's got to count for something.

[jmort]

Well I need to thank all concerned. Very excited to follow this thread. It may be an exercise in futility, but I'm thinking it might be worth sending "Sample # 1" to Rotometals. I just don't see how the alloy could be so clean across the board. Makes no sense and I mean no disrespect to goodsteel's buddy. So if cbrick will send #1 to RotoMetals, I'll pay for analysis. I'm betting there are far more elements in the alloy. If any others are willing to chip in, we could do #1, #2, and #3.

[Baryngyl]

I have always thought they would use a pretty pure or the same alloy all the time and not just what ever they can get a hold of for several reasons.
#1. They would need each mold for WW to throw a weight that weights close to what it is supposed to weigh.
#2. They would probably order a very huge amount at a time and order from the same place all the time and not be shopping around all the time for just what ever can be found the cheapest no matter what it is.

Probably a bunch of other reasons I can not think of right now.


Michael Grace

[MBTcustom]

I'm torn to be honest. Half of me is in full agreement with Jmortimer, but then again, it would suck to no end if the samples came back identical to what has been posted. That would be a real tough pill to swallow.
I should find out what kind of machine Rotometals has and what it's capability is. Ours just didn't have the resolution to see any impurities (I take that back, we couldn't measure the impurities), and we use that machine to proof test solder, to the satisfaction of the US government standards.
The guy said there were certainly traces of other elements, but so slight that he couldn't put a real number to them. Like he could test one spot and it would show traces of cadmium, zinc, gallium, and nickel less than .1% and then the next spot would show traces of copper, aluminum, gold, and cadmium, but again just enough that the machine can barely detect it. No reasonable scientist would accept those trace numbers, because they are unreliable.
Look at the variances in the above alloys #1-#4. all the same alloy right? Look at how the numbers fluctuate. There is a certain amount of error in those numbers. They're all close, but it's not so cut and dried that you can depend on the numbers down to less than .5%. In order to see an effect, we would need contaminates that equal greater than 1% in order to deduce a real reduction. The only samples that showed that were the SOWW's, and we do see a real reduction in the sulfur contamination.

FWIW, I have seen WW alloy that is much worse than this. All the samples I have tested were pretty much identical in the amount of tin and antimony present, but had as much as 1.5% contaminates! Like I have been saying for years, if there's one thing I know about WW metal it's that you never know what your going to get!

[btroj]

Is it possible to spike a sample? Intentionally add something like Al to a sample and see how much is removed by sawdust vs other fluxes?

Why depend on WW to give what we want to see when we can make it happen. I am not sure how much Al will readily melt into a lead based alloy but it shouldn't be hard to find out. 2 percent would be plenty. More heat than a Casting pot might be needed but someone with a torch, some Al, and a bit of lead can find out.

Just an idea.

[Wayne Smith]

Any Lowe's or Home Depot or whatever that has a saw will have a garbage can full of sawdust to give away.

Lowe's and Home Depot cut a lot of pressure treated. I don't want that stuff in my pot nor do I want to breathe the residue.

[MBTcustom]

Is it possible to spike a sample? Intentionally add something like Al to a sample and see how much is removed by sawdust vs other fluxes?

Why depend on WW to give what we want to see when we can make it happen. I am not sure how much Al will readily melt into a lead based alloy but it shouldn't be hard to find out. 2 percent would be plenty. More heat than a Casting pot might be needed but someone with a torch, some Al, and a bit of lead can find out.

Just an idea.

It would be much easier to get cadmium or zinc in there. I'm sure you are exercising your overactive sense of humor to poke fun at my above post. I was just trying to give an example of the difficulties described to me by the guy at work.

However, you do have a good idea. Problem is, I've never intentionally spiked an alloy with anything. Zinc is one idea, but it doesn't really alloy with the melt, and would be hard to measure.

[btroj]

No humor there Tim, I am using my old analytical chemistry brain. We often got spiked samples from customers. They used it as a way to decide if the lab was being "honest" or telling customers what they wanted to hear.

I don't know if zinc is easily removed by sawdust type fluxes. It certainly is easy to add to the alloy.

Is there a specific solder out there that contains calcium or something else that would be easily removed?

I think the fact the machine can't readily test below .2 percent concentration of a single impurity means we need to get the sample to start with well over that level of a single impurity. Rather than depend upon a wheel weight manufacturer to give us what we want why not build it ourself?

[btroj]

What if we mixed 25 percent cerrosafe with 75 percent wheel weights and tested both fluxed and I fluxed metal?
Cerrosafe is readily available, would mix with lead, I bet, and is rich enough in cadmium to give a strong reading.

[trapper9260]

btroj you are right make it our self that is what it is about anyways because for the WW is not being found like years ago because of the lead mix alloy.
On a different note I have use bee's wax then change to saw dust of what I could get after then I went to grounded corn cobs and it works also.From what I see is that if it produce carbon then have a good chance to clean your alloy for what I see.I also read some about it in the past also but do not remember where i read that.but thinking that for someone that can get corn cobs grounded that they can use that also,if they like and it works. For me that is.I also see the dirt on the bottom of the pot also at times but it is just what is in the mix of alloy.I can wrong in some I wrote.But that is what I see .

[whelenshooter]

Have you ever noticed cherry wood actually smells somewhat like cherries? We cut down a big cherry tree behind the church last year. I got some as fire wood and saved the sawdust. I noticed that when I burned the wood in my shop stove it smelled like cherries. Same thing as flux in my pot. Call me crazy but there you have it.

[MBTcustom]

The problem with cerrosafe is that it will alloy perfectly with the melt, and I don't think that the sawdust would reduce those alloys at all, rather it would just make sure they were in solution better?
Gear knows a lot more about this than I do. Where the heck is Geargnasher?!?!
I need to reread Fryxels article on fluxing and see if I can come up with an element that I can easily spike a sample with, that sawdust is reported to remove. Hmmmmmm

[btroj]

But we sort of WANT to see how it removes "stuff" alloyed perfectly with the alloy. Can it remove cadmium? Cadmium will alloy with lead but we don't really want it, can sawdust remove it?

I also think a zinc test would be interesting. Add 2 percent zinc to the melt and see if sawdust can remove any of it.

Removing to stuff not alloyed with lead is what Marvelux will do. It gets rid of stuff floating on the melt quite well, it doesn't do anything to stuff IN the melt, mixed into the alloy.

I think the cerrosafe test would also give some enlightenment on how fluxes act on tin. Do they remove it? What happens to a high tin alloy if we leave it for a while on a high heat? Does the tin "burn" out? What happens to same alloy if we flux with a variety of "stuff"? Does sawdust get that tin back into the melt?

I am sure Rick has some ideas.

[cbrick]

In sample #9, a lead ballast weight fluxed with sawdust two times shows a sulfur percent of 1.67%. That ballast alloy tested 8 BHN on an LBT tester. The stick-on weights with no fluxing had 4.0% sulfur and yet sulfur didn't show up in the same alloy fluxed with sawdust. Arsenic that most of us assume is in clip-on weights didn't show up in any of the samples, sulfur showed up only in the soft stick-on weights. In sample #6, stick-on weights with 2% Sn and fluxed with sawdust shows no arsenic or sulfur, .29% Sb and 2.53% Sn, it tests 9 BHN on the LBT tester.

Why sulfur in a lead alloy? The following is a quote from the article "The Myth of Arsenic" by CastBoolits own Wiljen on one of the very best cast bullet information sites on the internet . . . CastPics! Here is a link to the full article. The Myth of Arsenic (http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/GeneralReference/The%20Myth%20of%20Arsenic.pdf)

Grain refiners are chemicals added to a molten metal or alloy to check grain growth and are found in many metallurgical processes. Titanium, carbon, and boron mixtures are commonly used as grain refiners in aluminum casting operations.
Vanadium and niobium are commonly used grain refiners in steel manufacture. The most commonly used grain refiners have evolved over the years as improvements have been discovered. For example niobium is a better grain refiner in steel than is vanadium under most circumstances. Vanadium was the accepted norm for years, but is now being replaced by niobium in high stress applications as it yields greater strength.
So, if many different things can be used as grain refiners in aluminum and steel manufacture, why not Pb-Sb alloying.
A quick study found that indeed several different materials are grain refiners for Pb-Sb alloys. Amongst these are Arsenic, Copper, Selenium, and Sulfur.

There are a lot of little details that can be picked up from the results of this testing and yet it's disappointing for me because my interest in it wasn't as much "what is in WW's" but rather what does the various fluxes remove from the alloy. With the stick-on weights it seems that sawdust removed all of the sulfur and yet in sample #9 two fluxing's with sawdust didn't remove all of it?

The results of this testing will no doubt be a subject of discussion for a long time to come. jmortimer could have an interesting idea, test the testers and have Roto Metals also do a test of some of the samples. To test all 9 samples at Roto Metals would be $450.00 . . . Yikes! We'll have to see if we can get people on board for that.

Rick

[jmort]

I'm good for 10% - do we have 9 others? Might go 20% if we can 5 others. I'm about certain we will get some useful data, I'm counting on it.

[cbrick]

I'll match jmortimer. I really, really want to know the effectiveness of the various materials used for flux. To do that we need to know what was in it and what isn't in it after fluxing.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I can squeeze out $25 but that's about all I can spare. I still have all 9 samples, in their special baggies.

[jmort]

I would like to see this kind of detail, as I know there is more to the story:


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We use a New Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer.

You buy the test online, then you can mail us your sample and we will email you your report. If you want the sample back you need to supply your own UPS or carrier account number. Please call, if you have any questions.

Here is a sample report of a test

Ba < LOD : 0.137
Sb 5.895 ± 0.161
Sn 2.647 ± 0.098
In < LOD : 0.042
Cd < LOD : 0.034
Pd < LOD : 0.002
Ag < LOD : 0.017
Mo < LOD : 0.098
Nb < LOD : 0.041
Zr < LOD : 0.056
Bi < LOD : 0.272
Pb 89.782 ± 0.864
Hg < LOD : 0.112
Se 0.231 ± 0.073
Au < LOD : 0.162
Pt < LOD : 0.416
Ta 0.664 ± 0.140
Hf < LOD : 0.546
Ni < LOD : 0.112
Co < LOD : 0.087
Fe < LOD : 0.174
Mn < LOD : 0.200
Cr < LOD : 0.876
V < LOD : 0.805
Ti < LOD : 0.261

[btroj]

I can send in 45 bucks, no problem. Who is collecting money and what address do I send it to?

[mold maker]

Is there a PP address we can use to contribute? I can't afford much, but I do have an interest in this thread, and the results.
I have suspected for a couple years that the alloy they use is not consistant. As the use of lead for WWs draws to a close and is replaced, there is no reason to expect them to use an exact alloy. The weight doesn't need to be exact for this purpose, and within reason is good enough.
With the loss (EPA) of our last lead smelter (25% of US lead used) The price of imported lead from Mexico and China will increase. I'm sure if the US continues to produce WWs, the use of highly contaminated lead will result by economic necessity.

[MBTcustom]

I called Rotometals and asked how accurate their machine is, and how it works etc. They're tester is not in a vacuum controlled environment, and they just shoot the sample and email a report of the alloy. I asked if they test each sample three times and take an average, or how can they guarantee that level of precision? The lady told me no, they just shoot it with the gun and you get what you get. I asked if they test a different spot on the same sample would it not change? she said that unless the alloy is mixed very very well there will be differences.
I'm not thrilled about that.
Not trying to throw a monkey in the wrench here, but I went through this little learning curve a couple of years ago. My alloy kept coming out different every time, and the only numbers I could trust were the really significant ones.

Now, I'm looking at going at this from a different angle. I just called the folks that make the testing gun, and set up a meeting with the sales rep in december.
The guns are expensive, but it would be invaluable to have this in our hip pocket.
Question: how hard would it be for me to get together 1000 samples at $25 a pop?
:bigsmyl2:

[jmort]

That is a "toy" I would love to have. It appears we have enough members queued-up to do four samples. Unless anyone else is interested, I suggest we do #1 and #2 and #3 and a fouth suggested by cbrick. 1,2,3 would be common sequence used by members and would be the most useful. The "west coast sample" would be of interest to me as well. It makes common sense that every place on a sample would have a slightly different composition. That is a given. I still would like to know a little more about what we have here. I'm not concerned that RotoMetals does not utilize a "clean-room" for testing.

[cbrick]

Question: how hard would it be for me to get together 1000 samples at $25 a pop? :bigsmyl2:

Depends entirely on how patient you are. It'd be very possible that it could take a few years or more to get that many people that would pay to know. Are you willing to be out that much for that long? It would be pretty much a single use, single purpose tool. A foundry and or metals dealer could easily justify the expense using it daily in the normal course of their business.

I have tools that I could easily have lived without, were expensive and in reality get used very little. My bore scope is a perfect example, $800.00 and while I do use it and having it has been an education but do I get $800.00 of use from it? Maybe in a couple hundred more uses. For example, is your bore clean? Wanna bet serious money on that?

That's a lot of money Tim, think carefully that's not an $800.00 bore scope.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That is a "toy" I would love to have. It appears we have enough members queued-up to do four samples. Unless anyone else is interested, I suggest we do #1 and #2 and #3 and a fouth suggested by cbrick. 1,2,3 would be common sequence used by members and would be the most useful. The "west coast sample" would be of interest to me as well. It makes common sense that every place on a sample would have a slightly different composition. That is a given. I still would like to know a little more about what we have here. I'm not concerned that RotoMetals does not utilize a "clean-room" for testing.

Don't get in a twist, I was just reporting what I found out. I'm just thinking that in order to get a good feel for a reduction in contaminates, a sample would have to be measured a few times and averaged, and compared in the same way.
Regardless, the sales rep is a gun enthusiast, and said he would be glad to bring the gun by for a "demonstration". He said he always wanted to learn how to reload, and I explained the awesomeness of the cast lead boolit, so I think I can make it worth his while. LOL!
But dang I would love to have instant access to that gun without having to beg!

Don't mind me, I said I would slap some greenbacks on the barrel, and I will, I just wanted to tell you about another avenue I'm pursuing.
You don't make a rule out of one sample. One sample/test makes a strong theory. I want data that I can say yeah verily, thus sayeth the comprehensive evidence. It's worth a shot.

[jmort]

"Don't get in a twist"

Not sure how we got there, I'm not in a "twist," I'm just a pilgrim seeking answers. More information is more better. I am thankful for everything you have done. If I had the money I would have got me one of those Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t XRF Analyzers yesterday. I think waiting for your demo is a good idea. The demo may make any further testing moot. So far you have saved us a few hundred dollars as it is, not including your time and any chits you used up with your buddy. So no twist, just thankful for all the great members/moderators we have here. God Bless you all.

[MBTcustom]

I'm not suggesting we wait on my demo at all. The way my luck runs, the guy will forget I exist. I'm just saying that in addition to the RotoMetals test, I might be able to get yet another sample from yet another source. I just hope we can build a case on all this data that means something.
That, and I really wish there was a way for me to land one of those do-hickies, for cheap use by booliteers everywhere.

[cbrick]

Ah, a demo of the machine. :mrgreen: From your post #139 it sounded like you were ready to buy one and pay for it from boolit casters at $25 a pop, ya probably could if ya live long enough. :groner:

Rick

[Glen]

These are some very interesting results, and I wouldn't get downhearted about them at all. While the intent of the experiment was to learn more about the relative merits of various fluxes, there were other things learned instead.

1) the often quoted composition for WW alloy of 6% antimony and 2% tin clearly no longer applies (more like 3% and 1%)
2) these samples are almost certainly "virgin" alloy (i.e. not recycled), and would make very good bullet metal
3) in #8 and #9, I am surprised to see that much sulfur in the starting alloy, and since S forms strong stable compounds with Lead that offer zero benefit to the caster, it's good to see that "standard" fluxing methods are effective at removing it.

[cbrick]

That's interesting Glen but could you explain "strong stable compounds with Lead that offer zero benefit to the caster"? Not knowing anything about that it sounds like strong stable compounds would be a good thing but it offers no benefits? Time for some educatin I think.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Ah, a demo of the machine. :mrgreen: From your post #139 it sounded like you were ready to buy one and pay for it from boolit casters at $25 a pop, ya probably could if ya live long enough. :groner:

Rick

Hey, I can dream can't I? Im serious, 1000 samples is all it would take to pay for that thing, and then we would have it for all booliteers benefit from now on.
Like I said, I intend to make sure the guy doesn't feel it was a wasted trip, even if I have to reblue a gun for him LOL!

[cbrick]

Ok, I'm going to step up and volunteer Goodsteel to collect the funds and mail the samples off to Roto Metals. Isn't that generous of me? :mrgreen:

What say you all?

Rick

[btroj]

Seconded.


And Rick, I think Glen was speaking do lead sulfide, PbS. Very stable. As a compound and not elemental lead it must be viewed as an impurity. Sulfides tend to be very stable compounds, many metals are found in nature as Sulfides.

[MBTcustom]

Ummm, I think I would like to respectfully and gratefully nominate Rick instead. I've got my hands full just taking care of my business, and you know what it's like in my line of work this time of year!
That said, if you can't do it Rick, then I'll step up to the plate no problem.

I got an email from the guy that sells the lead testers, and he said that they would be in my area possibly in the next few weeks, and would be glad to give me a demonstration.
I informed him that I had the perfect sample with which to test the gun on, being samples that were fluxed and not, and I'm extremely curious to see if his gun can detect the impurities or lack thereof. I will be testing other things while I'm at it to see if I can justify financing this doo-dad for my business. It's a jaw dropper on cost, but it's also exceedingly useful for a whole plethora of applications.

[cbrick]

Seems this idea was dropped like a hot potato. Is there still interest?

Don't know if I should be grateful or my feelings hurt that I didn't get a second on Tim's nomination, think I'll settle for grateful.

So where are we on this testing?

Rick

[jsizemore]

Since our source of alloy was 'clean' then it might be that we need to intentionally contaminate it with some zinc and possibly some copper sulfate. We know the sawdust flux removes the sulpher from Pb. Would it work for the zinc and copper also? At our temps it might be a little too hard to get any aluminum in the mix. So, are you up to trying a little more testing? I have some zinc I can send if you don't have any. Maybe a small pack of root killer for the copper sulfate.

I still use a little parafin or dollar store wax when removing clips from the smelting pot before using sawdust and in the casting pot. Once I have clean alloy ingots then sawdust seems to make no difference in the bottom pour pot. If I didn't have parafin/wax then I wouldn't hesitate to use only sawdust during casting or smelting.

[jmort]

I'm still good and interested. If no one minds, I would like to call them and ask if we can get a discount for multiple samples and if so where do the price breaks hit, and how much is the break. Any objections to me calling Roto on Monday? I'll also ask if we can pay them individually in increments.

[Geppetto]

Guess i've pretty much missed this thread until today. With regards to testing a sample with an XRF and getting different readings, with something like a casting, i would fully expect to see some variations from spot to spot. And most of those types of tests are going to be a bit inconsistent in the residual contaminant elements. If you really want to get a good consistent reading of your contaminants, your best bet would be to have a lab perform an ICP-OES wet chem. In that case you are actually dissolving the sample and testing the liquid. This would probably be the best bet for a homogenous testing. However, you're not going to get 9 samples tested for $450.00. I would estimate at least $100 per test or probably a bit more. At work (metallurgical/failure analysis engineer) I would probably quote the test at around $150.00, but we outsource wet chems.

Just wanted to try and give some insight on the testing you are having performed.

Greg

[cbrick]

I'm not too convinced on the sawdust removing sulfur, we have one sample with 4% and totally removed with one sawdust fluxing. We have another sample that was fluxed twice with sawdust and it still has 1.67% sulfur. :veryconfu

A call to Roto Metals could be good explaining the testing being done on CastBoolits (send them the link to this thread if needed), might not be a bad idea to let it slip how much business they get from this site. :twisted:

Dunno if we should contaminate a sample or do a heads up comparison with the previous tests run on the same sample.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I'll contribute some cash to this, but I'd like to see some "known dirty" samples in the fray. Not zinc, though, we know when we have that and how to deal with it. My principle concern is calcium contamination due to the hazards of dealing with the ash after it absorbs moisture from the air. Aluminum seems to be an issue, too, from the metallic flake in the painted weights. If I don't sawdust-flux that stuff out (and it DOES come out, you can tell by the ash condition after repeated fluxings, and also from the way the alloy casts before and after fluxing), then I have troubles.

I'd like to see just three samples tested: One a wheel weight base with known aluminum and calcium contamination, the same alloy fluxed with paraffin/beeswax/similar, the last fluxed with pine sawdust.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I'm set up to meet with the alloy gun feller next week (still got my fingers crossed). should be interesting.

[cbrick]

I'd like to see just three samples tested: One a wheel weight base with known aluminum and calcium contamination, the same alloy fluxed with paraffin/beeswax/similar, the last fluxed with pine sawdust. Gear

Well, I don't have any more WW or way to know if there is aluminum or calcium contamination in it if I did have some. Are you volunteering to make the samples?

I have the original alloy sent by jsizemore in ingots marked with the sample number. Only the ingots from sample #1 are un-fluxed, about 15 pounds. All the rest has been fluxed with either wax, sawdust or Marvalux.

Rick

[jmort]

"I would fully expect to see some variations from spot to spot"

Of course, every spot would vary, but that does not zero out testing and getting general information.

I would rather not spend $100.00/$150 per test, or more. We are at $59.00 worst case. Dissolving a sample and testing would be nice, but I feel we can get useful information with the XRF gun. I'm thinking we should use some/all of the previous samples and add a couple as suggested if we can swing it. I will call Roto tomorrow. Only discussing the $$$ and discount, nothing more. We can iron out details later. We hopefully can find a "friend" at Roto for future reference.

[jsizemore]

I'd like to see just three samples tested: One a wheel weight base with known aluminum and calcium contamination, the same alloy fluxed with paraffin/beeswax/similar, the last fluxed with pine sawdust.

Gear

If you feel up to it, I can come up with a SFRB of COWWs to contaminate.

[geargnasher]

Well, I don't have any more WW or way to know if there is aluminum or calcium contamination in it if I did have some. Are you volunteering to make the samples?

I have the original alloy sent by jsizemore in ingots marked with the sample number. Only the ingots from sample #1 are un-fluxed, about 15 pounds. All the rest has been fluxed with either wax, sawdust or Marvalux.

Rick

All my clippy weights have been smelted, fluxed, and ingoted except for some truck weights, but I'll see what I can come up with. Pretty sure I can get something with calcium in the alloy, not so sure about aluminum, but I'll so some reading on intermetallics and see if I can make that happen.

Gear

[L1A1Rocker]

All my clippy weights have been smelted, fluxed, and ingoted except for some truck weights, but I'll see what I can come up with. Pretty sure I can get something with calcium in the alloy, not so sure about aluminum, but I'll so some reading on intermetallics and see if I can make that happen.

Gear

I picked up a bucket of WW's today, and still have that trash can of WW's. If you need some let me know.

[cbrick]

I will call Roto tomorrow. Only discussing the $$$ and discount, nothing more. We can iron out details later. We hopefully can find a "friend" at Roto for future reference.

Anything to report?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Fellers, I have good news.
A member of the forum (who wishes to remain anonymous) has access to several benchtop XrF testing machines. He has generously offered to help us with our experiments. We had a long talk today that began and ended with lead, but covered just about everything else in the middle. The upshot of it was, that he agrees that a way should be found to spike the mix so that we have real numbers to work with. He also offered to help with this process as necessary.
I will keep you abreast of progress, and ask for your help as needed.
This certainly is the break we have been needing.

[cbrick]

That is good news for sure.

Did he say how many samples he would be willing to test? I would like to see all 9 of the original samples tested plus WW from a different region & whatever you would like to spike a sample with. Would also like to see a blind test like the last one, samples numbered only so no preconceived notions come into play.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

That is good news for sure.

Did he say how many samples he would be willing to test? I would like to see all 9 of the original samples tested plus WW from a different region & whatever you would like to spike a sample with. Would also like to see a blind test like the last one, samples numbered only so no preconceived notions come into play.

Rick

The impression I got from our conversation was "as many as it takes".

[cbrick]

The impression I got from our conversation was "as many as it takes".

86582

[btroj]

What to spike it with, that is the question.

Cerrosafe or Woods metal would be a good choice. Low melt point, should mix with lead well, easy to obtain. Add enough to get 5 percent Cd and then flux well and see what happens.

Would be interesting to see if fluxing would remove any Bi too.

[jmort]

"Anything to report?"

Spoke with customer service/sales ("Dee Dee") and she said to contact El Jefe, "Ryan" via email, so I have done so and hope to have info today. Will post update ASAP.

[jmort]

Here is the news:

10 samples for $250.00
Sounds fair to me. If we can get some people to commit then we can confirm.
I'm good for at least $50.00

[btroj]

I can do 50 bucks

[MBTcustom]

Beats the heck out of $87 each.
I'm still good for $25. Sorry, we po.

[jmort]

We are half-way there, at least.

[MBTcustom]

Is there a time limit on these samples J? Should we wait until we get results from our member here, and use the store-boughten test to confirm?
I'm just thinking that we might have a much better idea what samples to send if we have already done some tests ourselves?

[cbrick]

I for one wish to do both the Roto and the very generous offer from Tim's anonymous friend.

I'll go in for $50.00. Curious minds just gotta know even if it changes nothing . . . Just gotta know. :coffee:

Rick

[tygar]

I have been using lube, usually paraffin or/and beeswax & kitchen matches for at least 40yrs. An old timer who got me into casting said use the lube & 4 kitchen matches, broken in half & keep stirring until the matches are all gone. Works great with good mixing & cleaning the lead. Same principal & sure works.

[jmort]

"Is there a time limit on these samples J?"

I believe not, so I agree, let's get more data, and then get the 10 tests for $250.00. The print outs on the tests will be very detailed.

[MBTcustom]

"Is there a time limit on these samples J?"

I believe not, so I agree, let's get more data, and then get the 10 tests for $250.00. The print outs on the tests will be very detailed.

Good. I would hate to do it the other way around and then wish we had sent something other than what we sent to be tested. We sure don't want to waste samples that cost that much.

[BNE]

Fellers, I have good news.
A member of the forum (who wishes to remain anonymous) has access to several benchtop XrF testing machines. He has generously offered to help us with our experiments. We had a long talk today that began and ended with lead, but covered just about everything else in the middle. The upshot of it was, that he agrees that a way should be found to spike the mix so that we have real numbers to work with. He also offered to help with this process as necessary.
I will keep you abreast of progress, and ask for your help as needed.
This certainly is the break we have been needing.

Gents, this guy is me. I was hesitant to jump in and offer because I can not open up a free testing service to everyone on the sight. The company I work for manufactures custom components for the high and ultra high vacuum market. We have three XrFs (Fischer model XDLM) and a lab full of other analytical equipment. The XrFs are used as a process control measuring device for different metalic coating and plating operations. I have discussed me doing some testing with my boss (he is the President) and he has no issues with it. So in short, I can do all the testing I want, but as a manager I will absolutely avoid any appearance of impropriety. Testing after work, etc. On the flip side, the company uses 60/40 Sn/Pb and we use a Pb/Ag eutectic alloy, so some of the questions we hope to answer can benefit my employer as well. So if done properly this is a win win.

Who am I?
Raised in SC
Ceramic Engineer from Clemson
Married for 20 years, 2 daughters, active in my Church,
Worked as a process engineer for 5 years, a design engineer for 6, and have worked the last 9 years as a production manager. Reloaded for 14 years, cast for less than 1 year!

Testing Concerns with an XrF:
Every time you make a measurement you will see variation. This has vexxed me over the years. I have tried to make a test specimen that we can use in the machine over and over for comparison purposes, but even if I take a sample, place into the machine and take measurement after measurement, it will vary. The sample below is from an as received ingot from one of our alloy suppliers. The bar was placed into the machine and I took five readings at the exact same spot.

Solder Bar from Stock: (60Sn/40Pb)
Sorting for Sn and Pb Only
Meas. 1 2 3 4 5 Avg Sdev Min Max
Sn% 61.3 61.48 61.27 62.36 61.33 61.55 0.461 61.27 62.36
Pb% 38.7 38.52 38.73 37.64 38.67 38.45 0.461 37.64 38.73

Based on this, it is my OPINION that readings of 0.5% or less are meaningless. This is only my opinion, and I am going to contact our technical rep. and have him teach me more details.
It will clearly measure differences in the alloys we use at work. When in doubt, we regularly distinguish between mixxed product. So even if the machine is not able to read down to 0.001% accurately, it is consistent enough to show a difference. (According to the manual this is typical of this technology, so I do not think we will do any better with the equipment Rotometals uses.)

I need to learn more details about this machines capability. I am contacting the technical rep. and I have started going through the manual. (Only 300 + pages!)

I would like to propose the following:
I think it would be best to take some known samples Pb and Sn and contaminate them heavily and then flux with different flux options. Taking measurements before and after each step. Given time, we can gain knowledge of what is really happening with parafin, bees wax, sawdust etc. I am happy to test the samples that have been suggested, but I think the more we can do with known samples, the better data we will get.

Is this what you gentlemen had in mind? Please let me know.

BNE

This site has been tremendously helpful to me, so I hope I can add to the knowledge.

[MBTcustom]

That sounds about right.
The big, fat, burning question on everybody's lips is: what to spike the alloy with?

BNE, we owe you a huge pat on the back, a hearty handshake, and a full mug of good german brew for the help you are giving us here.

[cbrick]

Is this what you gentlemen had in mind? Please let me know. BNE

Yes Sir, that is exactly what I had in mind and wish to learn. A huge thanks, we can all learn a lot from this.

Please don't hesitate to ask for anything that we may be able to help with.

Rick

[BNE]

That sounds about right.
The big, fat, burning question on everybody's lips is: what to spike the alloy with?


I'm going to start with Tin. We want to have it in the alloy and we worry about how to flux it back into the mix. I have access to a known high quality source, and this test is beneficial to my employer. I actually got scared when I read about scraping off the Tin oxide from the top of the mix and therefore depleting the Tin from the mix over time. We have a 40 pound pot on for 40+ hours a week. The first thing we do when we are going to Hot Solder Dip a part is scrape the crud off the top of the melt and throw it out! I can test this on a smaller scale and try to measure what effect this has on the ratio of Tin to Lead. (FYI, my first quick check of the 40 pound pot showed no difference between the ingot from stock and the melt in the pot.)

BNE

[rattletrap1970]

We talk a lot about testing our own boolits and ingots and source material, I'm also wondering what the alloy is of store bought (professionally made) lead boolits. I mean, we may be on a long road to remove materials that are in everyone's boolits and really have no functional effect detrimental or otherwise. I understand this is a learning exercise, and that its more of a test to see which fluxes remove what and how well. I would also be interested to see how close we are to stuff that folks buy.
I'm very interested in seeing how my material stands up, and how well my process has been since I got started. I only cast a couple hundred boolits every other month or so (just what I need at any one time). I have been melting down lead and casting it into muffin ingots since I got started. No rhyme or reason to it, just very careful about melt temp and sorting. But I'm sure there is variance from the first ingots till now. For that reason I want to get a large pot and melt everything I have together, then test it. Then I can split the batch and adjust and sequester the different alloys.
As far as that question "What to spike the alloy with?". My personal opinion is spike it with whatever you want to remove the most. I'd say zinc as that is likely to be the single most plausable contaminant.

[btroj]

I think that is the best methodology to use.

Order a few certified ingots from Rotometals then test the original ingot, a cast sample, a fluxed sample. Take some of that sample and spike it with cerrosafe. Sample I fluxed and variously fluxed samples.

I think having a sample with large, as in 3 to 5 percentage, impurities will give more reliable results than something with .5 percent impurities.

BNE, this is a huge contribution and offer. You also bring a level of experience with this sort of testing that can only help. Welcome aboard.

[cbrick]

We have a 40 pound pot on for 40+ hours a week. The first thing we do when we are going to Hot Solder Dip a part is scrape the crud off the top of the melt and throw it out! I can test this on a smaller scale and try to measure what effect this has on the ratio of Tin to Lead. (FYI, my first quick check of the 40 pound pot showed no difference between the ingot from stock and the melt in the pot.) BNE

That's interesting because, on page 6, post #115, sample #5 in the results of the last test sample #5 was from an ingot that I had melted out of two coffee cans of the sawdust ash from fluxing. I fully expected it to be tin rich since tin oxidizes on the surface first but the results showed that it was rather close to the original alloy that I had been fluxing . . . Sample #5 is 94.05% Pb - 2.77% Sb - 2.32% Sn. It was from an original 800 pound lot of clip-on WW all blended together. 2% pure tin is added to my casting pot not to the ingots of WW. I weigh ingots going into the casting pot on a digital postal scale and add 2% Sn by weight of the ingot. There is a bit more Sn and less Pb in sample #5 but that's pretty minor considering a 40 pound casting pot and 2-3 years of fluxing to collect that much ash plus the 2% Sn is added each time I add ingots.

On a side note, how would everyone feel about testing a couple of samples from a couple of different commercial bullet casters?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

On a side note, how would everyone feel about testing a couple of samples from a couple of different commercial bullet casters?

Rick

My first thought would be: "who cares?"
I know several commercial casters, and they basically use the same stuff we do (ie what they can get). Besides, if you're buying your boolits from a commercial vendor, then it seems strange that you would care what alloy is being used, when no special regard is being given to fit, or lube (which in my experience has consistently sucked wind)

The thrust of this entire forum, yay even this thread is to educate the boolit maker, not the boolit consumer.

[cbrick]

Just a curiosity thing Tim. I can say in all honesty that I have never bought a single cast bullet, I was casting before I ever knew anyone else sold them. What I was thinking of is Oregon Trail cast bullets and all the rumors about them using silver in their alloy.

Rick

[btroj]

Does anyone have some foundry hardball alloy to try? Does it contain what it is said to contain?

What happens if hardball is heated to 800 and skimmed every 5 min for a couple hours? Does it really lose tin?

Anyone have suggestions on a simple way to spike a sample with "impurities" to see if they can be removed by fluxing? Needs to be capable of adding at least 2 percent of each specific impurity to make sure the machine can detect it. I like cerrosafe as it contains Cd and Bi, both things that may be found in scrap lead. Can sawdust, or other fluxes, remove them?

[MBTcustom]

My thoughts on the matter are these:
At work, we too use eutectic 63/37 solder the pots. It is used to tin leads etc. and gets used every day, all day for a couple months, and then changed. I get the used alloy from the pots, and I have had it tested. After two months of constant scraping and dipping, the alloy measures about 60/40 after all that. It seems strange to me that a much more diluted alloy would lose any significant am out of tin from just a few scrapings during smelt.

[rattletrap1970]

I suggested checking retail cast boolit composition because I purchased a lot of them.. THEN got into casting. I've only been doing this for about 2-1/2 years or so. I've learned a lot from this forum and I apply a lot of the things I've learned in the 22 years that I've been a design engineer. Any checking retail boolits was merely to see what people accept as "the norm" and where we are by comparison.. That's all.

[MBTcustom]

This thread is about fluxing. And BNE offered to help us to that end and that end only. The composition of commercial cast boolits has nothing to do with the effect of various fluxing mediums.
This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to learn something. Lets not waste it by losing focus.

If your dying to know what's in some weird alloy that some obscure caster did, that benefits noone but the guy holding that alloy.

We are pulling out all the stops for this test because it will apply to EVERYONE.

[cbrick]

Well Tim, your completely off the mark.

Fluxing is what this is all about. Who said otherwise and why are you getting so testy? There has been a lot of conversation about polluting samples to see what FLUXING does or does not do and what to pollute the sample with. I suggested something like Oregon Trail bullets because they advertise silver in the alloy and you have been not too much short of on a rant since. Explain to me what the problem is because you seem to have one?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

What does flux do?
It reportedly performs two functions. It removes some things and returnes others to the melt and solves them in it better.
You can flux the heck out of a classic alloy of pb sn and sb and you expect it to never reduce those alloys. We need to find samples of known composition, and spike them with something that the flux is supposed to reduce. Which (stop me if I'm wrong) does not apply to dense solvable metals like silver, copper, nickle, gold, etc etc etc. These things solve, and will not get fluxed out. Furthermore, commercial cast will be fairy well fluxed alloy in the first place.
We need a contamination that the flux is supposed to reduce, (not return) and we need it to be 2% or more.
I'm not trying to be testy. I'm trying to keep us on track, and I just don't see what commercial cast boolits has to do with the experiment. Forgive me if I missed the point.
We have no way to measure how well an alloy is MIXED.
What am I missing?

[btroj]

Ok, first off a couple words need to be cleared up.

When we reduce something it means we are taking the oxide and returning it to the elemental metal. This is stuff we want like tin. We take tin oxide, reduce it, removing the oxygen, and get metallic tin.

We also want the absorptive qualities of sawdust. Adsorption is a surface effect in which a substance is bound to a substrate. This is where we think, or maybe hope, that stuff like cadmium, aluminum, and calcium are removed. These may well be metals dissolved into the alloy. They are not always things just mixed or suspended in the alloy but rather are actually part of the alloy.

An alloy is a mix of metals that can't be separated by physical means. We are using chemical means and alloys can be separated that way. Smelters do it all the time.

Using a known alloy, something like commercial hardball alloy, will give as good start point. We know, or are told, it contains 2 percent tin and 6 percent antimony. Both are in a high enough concentration to be a over the detection threshold for the machine.

My suggestion is to take this known alloy and test it unaltered.

Take the alloy and heat to higher than normal casting temp for a period of maybe 8 hours with skimming performed every 15 to 30 minutes. Retest this alloy. No fluxing at any point. Did the level of tin or antimony drop? Does oxidation make a relevant difference for our purposes in an extreme situation like this? Tells us how much melt temp and oxidation really matter- proof is better than assumption.

Take the known alloy and spike it with something containing metals we don't always want. Could be cerrosafe with bismuth and cadmium. Could be a copper or silver based solder. Test the spiked alloy both Unfluxed and after fluxing with various products. Does the fluxing alter the composition of the alloy in any significant manner? Again, we assume what happens but do we know?

We need a scientific methodology. Test the known, alter it, and retest. We need multiple samples. I suggest a minimum of 3. It wouldn't even hurt to have multiple people do the testing in separate locations. Think about it, of Rick, Gear, and I all do the same methodology and get similar results we have better evidence than of Rick alone does the testing.

This doesn't need to be difficult or painful. It needs to be well thought out, a method devised, and the protocol followed precisely. His is the chem major in me coming out. This is how scientific work is done and there is a reason for it. Unless the protocol is well prepared and followed properlY it can lead to results that are biased or are open to misinterpretations.

I am more than happy to work with BNE and others to develop a test protocol.

Let's not be testy, let's just test.

[MBTcustom]

I agree completely Btroj. You put it succinctly, and that's exactly what I am hoping for, and how we will make best use of this opportunity.
I'm not being testy, I just want to maintain a scientific method.

[jmort]

"I was thinking of is Oregon Trail cast bullets and all the rumors about them using silver in their alloy."


That would be interesting. I had some 'Laser Cast" boolits from Oregon Trails and sold them. They are way hard. The silver is a naturally occurring element that often exists in varying amounts in lead ore. Their claim about the "Silver Bullet" is hype, as again, silver is naturally occurring element. They may have a "richer" source for their lead, but silver should be present in many/most/all lead ores. I'm up for testing just about anything, including the Laser Cast bullets.

"Does anyone have some foundry hardball alloy to try"

Yes, I have some "Hardball" from Missouri Bullets. They sell some retail to off-set costs of their supply. I believe it is from Mayco.

I would donate some hardball if wanted. Also, I'm very interested in Magnum shot as a base alloy and would like to get a sample tested as well. For the money, Magnum shot makes sense. Not only the antimony content, but the arsenic as well. Great candidate for testing as it should heat-treat well and to my mind makes a great alloy to add some tin and soft lead to get a 94/3/3 alloy with arsenic. My ultimate alloy as it will heat-treat north of 20 bhn and will not be brittle and stay together on impact. It will do anything.

"I just want to maintain a scientific method"

Makes sense. I also want to use "methods/alloys" that are in use by common folk. Which I believe Cbrick did when he smelted/casted the original set of samples.

[BoolitBullet]

I have reptile bedding made up of coconut husks. What do you guys think of that?

[BNE]

Ok, first off a couple words need to be cleared up.

When we reduce something it means we are taking the oxide and returning it to the elemental metal. This is stuff we want like tin. We take tin oxide, reduce it, removing the oxygen, and get metallic tin.

We also want the absorptive qualities of sawdust. Adsorption is a surface effect in which a substance is bound to a substrate. This is where we think, or maybe hope, that stuff like cadmium, aluminum, and calcium are removed. These may well be metals dissolved into the alloy. They are not always things just mixed or suspended in the alloy but rather are actually part of the alloy.

An alloy is a mix of metals that can't be separated by physical means. We are using chemical means and alloys can be separated that way. Smelters do it all the time.

Using a known alloy, something like commercial hardball alloy, will give as good start point. We know, or are told, it contains 2 percent tin and 6 percent antimony. Both are in a high enough concentration to be a over the detection threshold for the machine.

My suggestion is to take this known alloy and test it unaltered.

Take the alloy and heat to higher than normal casting temp for a period of maybe 8 hours with skimming performed every 15 to 30 minutes. Retest this alloy. No fluxing at any point. Did the level of tin or antimony drop? Does oxidation make a relevant difference for our purposes in an extreme situation like this? Tells us how much melt temp and oxidation really matter- proof is better than assumption.

Take the known alloy and spike it with something containing metals we don't always want. Could be cerrosafe with bismuth and cadmium. Could be a copper or silver based solder. Test the spiked alloy both Unfluxed and after fluxing with various products. Does the fluxing alter the composition of the alloy in any significant manner? Again, we assume what happens but do we know?

We need a scientific methodology. Test the known, alter it, and retest. We need multiple samples. I suggest a minimum of 3. It wouldn't even hurt to have multiple people do the testing in separate locations. Think about it, of Rick, Gear, and I all do the same methodology and get similar results we have better evidence than of Rick alone does the testing.

This doesn't need to be difficult or painful. It needs to be well thought out, a method devised, and the protocol followed precisely. His is the chem major in me coming out. This is how scientific work is done and there is a reason for it. Unless the protocol is well prepared and followed properlY it can lead to results that are biased or are open to misinterpretations.

I am more than happy to work with BNE and others to develop a test protocol.

Let's not be testy, let's just test.

Agree 100%. I am probably to blame for Tim's "Testiness". I was hesitant to jump in because I didn't want to have everyone on the forum sending me samples. I have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into the place I work and we have turned it from a place that was months away from shutting down to a place that is booming. I plan to retire from this place and I will not jeapordize my job. So far no-one has asked me to do any testing other than what has been discussed on this thread. Lets stay on this target. I expressed this fear to Tim and he is defending this. Thank you Tim.

My other concern is whether I have access to the right equipment to give us useful information. I have sent emails to the Application Engineer for the XrF and to our solder supplier about the fluxes they sell. I have saved a LOT of time in my career by finding the person who knows something instead of figuring it out myself. THEN verify what they told me. (Ronald Reagan once said "Trust, but verify.")


I like the hardball test btroj is suggesting. I am going to mix a batch today and start holding it at 800F. As for sample prep,
I plan to empty the pot,
brush it down with a wire brush,
mix the alloys (~18 pounds) and adjust heat to 800F
Flux? or not Flux? ** Opinions Please **
Take a sample - (Probably a Lee 1/2 pound)
Hold Temp and start skimming every 15 minutes - No more fluxing
Pull samples every hour.

XrF.

[jmort]

"I have reptile bedding made up of coconut husks. What do you guys think of that?"

It would work. Why not get $3.00 worth of pine bedding? It will work better.

[BoolitBullet]

"I have reptile bedding made up of coconut husks. What do you guys think of that?"

It would work. Why not get $3.00 worth of pine bedding? It will work better.

Cause I have the the dirty lead and animal bedding (for my pets) now. I plan to get some shavings eventually. I was just curious if I was good to go now.

[jmort]

It will work, question is to what degree. I would try it in your circumstances.

[btroj]

BNE, I would be interested in a prolonged, higher than "normal" temp, no flux, just skimmed test.

Does excessive heat with lots of skimming and no fluxing really reduce the tin content of our alloys? This is a huge area of concern and some real world testing would be important to all of us.

I hope nobody reads into this thread with intention of asking you to test their alloy. Keeping this an open, shared knowledge, examination of what really happens to our alloys is important to all of us.

BNE, if you have specific suggestions for a test regimen PM me. I think a developed protocol could help and it should also, once shared openly, let everyone know what the goals and methods are.

[BNE]

Here is what I have started:

I used some linotype and Monotype and soft lead to make the "Hardball": (Units are in pounds)

Monotype 2.50
Linotype 5.50
Soft 10.00
TOTAL Weight:18.00

Should yield 91.8% Pb, 2.2% Sn and 6.0% Sb

I emptied my pot and scrubbed it down while it was hot with a brass bore brush. (This cleaned the pot, but destroyed the brush! I will use Stainless next time.)

I mixxed the alloy and poured a few ingots and stirred, then cycled a few ingots in and out of the pot to assure a good mix.

I did flux the pot with sawdust at this time. I scraped the top and kept the ash and whatever metal came off.

I DID NOT FLUX AGAIN.

I poured a one pound ingot as my "0 Hour" sample.

I then left it and went to rake / blow leaves... (this is optional ;))

I came back ~every 15 to 20 minutes and scraped the top "stuff" out with a stainless spoon. I kept each of these on a ceramic plate. (scrap from work) - A sheet of aluminum foil would probably work fine.

The first hour I had to turn the pot down each visit because the temp was 900F+! I was able to get it to stabilize at 800F after that first hour. (I should also mention that I have the pot under a small hood that pulls air over the pot and out of the garage. I will post pictures later.)

Each hour +/- 5 minutes, I scraped the top, kept the sample, stirred it, then using a stainless ladle, poured a small sample ~1/4 pound. I labeled each sample per the hour it was pulled.

I continued this for 6 hours.

I started doing the XrF testing today and was not able to finish. I should be able to stay late and complete the testing this week.

I think it would make sense if several others tried the same sample prep and sent me samples. Only a small amount is needed to actually test. A BB size sample will be enough. That will make shipping easier. If you want to send samples PM me and I will let you know where to send them.

[MBTcustom]

Now we're talkin! Good for you BNE! Very solid method!

[btroj]

I have some days off around next weekend. I may be able to do some testing like that. I need to see about a sample to spike too.

[MBTcustom]

If there is agreement on spiking with cerrosafe, I happen to have a few pounds of the stuff. Since time is at a premium around here, I would gladly donate to a person doing the spiking. I'm not sure what part of cerrosafe is supposed to be reduced by the flux, but if you think it's worth a shot then by all means. (honestly, I never even looked up what's in this stuff).

[btroj]

Cerrosafe contains bismuth, lead, tin, and cadmium. I would be interested to see if fluxing with sawdust would remove the bismuth or cadmium.

I don't know of a simple way to introduce aluminum to the alloy or I would try that instead. Anyone know of a tin or lead based solder that contains aluminum?

Ok, I found a product called alumite. It is a solder/brazing rod for zinc or aluminum castings. It contains zinc, aluminum, copper, and magnesium. It melts at 728 F.

It isn't horribly expensive to get a small amount. You guys think that is a worthwhile group of metals to investigate the value of flux on?

[MBTcustom]

I had never heard of alumite Brad. That sure sounds like a good idea!

[jmort]

Gentlemen, please check this out, we can get 20 samples analyzed for around $100.00
I can't do it now, but someone should contact this member, as this is a great deal.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?219570-Lead-analysing-service-4th-run
BNE could do his work and we can get more info for very little cost.

[BNE]

RESULTS TIME: (Please see Post #204 for the test preparation.)

Sample Prep:
Samples are labeled 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and then "Scrapings". I will explain "Scrapings" later.
0 = the initial sample after the alloy was melted and fluxxed with sawdust. (No more fluxxing after this.)
1 = the sample taken at hour #1
2 = the Sample taken at hour #2 etc. etc.

All samples were taken after the top of the pot was scraped and then stirred with a stainless, slotted spoon. All "Scrapings" were placed in order (top to bottom, left to right) onto a ceramic plate. Hourly samples for the test were pulled from the top of the pot with a stainless ladle.

XrF measurement:
I tested some samples using the "full spectrum" and convinced myself that only small amounts of impurities if any existed in the samples. ~.1% at max.
I then told the machine to evaluate Pb, Sn, and Sb only.
I measured each sample 5 times and then calculated AVERAGE, Standard Deviation, Minimum value, and Maximum value. The dwell time for each measurement was 30 seconds.

I contacted our Service Engineer for these machines and reviewed what I was doing and how I was doing it and he only suggested I increase the dwell time to 30 seconds.

Averages:
Hour Pb Sn Sb
0 91.8 3.4 5.6
1 92.1 3.0 4.9
2 92.3 3.0 4.7
3 92.4 2.9 4.7
4 91.6 3.2 5.2
5 92.7 2.9 4.4
6 91.6 3.1 5.4

I do not like posting numbers and not graphing them. I am not sure how to attach a file to a post, so I took a picture of the graph:
87509

I also took the "Scrapings" and analyzed them:

Scrape Avg:
Pb Sn Sb
1st 90.8 2.8 6.0
1Hr 90.9 3.0 6.1
6Hr 91.1 2.6 6.3

87510

Conclusions:
I have tried to be careful and thorough with this testing. Data collection can be tricky and just because a machine spits out a number does not mean it is correct. When my father was helping me with calculus, he would make me calculate the answer in my head BEFORE I plugged numbers into a calculator and have it spit numbers out. This way I could make sure that the numbers made sense. (his slide rule prevented this kind of problem, and yes, at 79 he still uses it.)

I view this data as ONE data point. It suggests that the mix did not significantly change even when the pot was run very hot, for a much longer than a normal casting session.

I suggest we make a few more tests and see if the results above hold true.

If you are willing to make samples, PM me and I will tell yo how to send them to me.

BNE

[btroj]

Shows me that tin does not significantly oxidize out of the melt at reasonable casting temps. Even after 6 hours the tin level wasn't significantly different. Don't know about you guys but I don't leave a pot sitting for that long when casting.

Great testing BNE. Nice to get some cold, hard numbers to show what happened in your pot.

I will do a test this weekend if time allows. Maybe run my RCBS at full tilt and see what happens.

I also will see about getting a small bit of something to contaminate some alloy with and see of sawdust can remove it.

Again, thanks for some enlightening data.

[MBTcustom]

I had the salesmen from the XRF place out to the shop day before yesterday and they were good enough to run all the samples that cbrick sent me. I asked lots of questions and we shot samples of brass, steel, and lead alloy's. Very nice gents.
What I noticed was that the XRF had trouble with less dense alloys like aluminum. The possibility of error was much greater, especially when solved in a lead based alloy.
One of the fellers said he would be glad to email me the results of the tests. If he comes through, I'll post the results.

Great method BNE. Very well executed tests sir!

[BNE]

I have some more data to add to the discussion. Mr. Goodsteel was gracious enough to send me the 9 samples discussed in post #115. I was able to XrF them today. The results are listed original data then my test results:

Sample #1
Pb 96.32 96.47
Sb 2.89 2.92
Sn 0.79 0.62

Sample #2
Pb 96.02 96.80
Sb 2.75 2.59
Sn 1.22 0.62

Sample #3
Pb 96.36 96.51
Sb 2.63 2.77
Sn 1.00 0.72

Sample #4
Pb 95.98 96.71
Sb 3.03 2.75
Sn 0.99 0.54

Sample #5
Pb 94.05 94.97
Sb 2.77 2.79
Sn 2.32 2.25

Sample #6
Pb 97.18 I can not find sample #6! I will scour my office for it, but I could not find it today!
Sb 0.29 I am sorry for this!
Sn 2.53

Sample #7
Pb 99.58 99.48
Sb 0.12 0.17
Sn 0.3 0.35

Sample #8
Pb 95.44 99.57
Sb 0.56 0.09
Sn 0.0 0.34
Sulfur 4.0 0.0

Sample #9
Pb 98.33 99.96
Sb 0.56 0.01
Sn 0.0 0.02
Sulfur 1.67 0.0

Comments:
While the measurements made were not EXACTLY the same, I would consider the readings for samples 1-7 to be the same. This is the nature of the beast with this type of equipment. You can measure the exact same spot on a sample 10different times and not get the exact same readings each time. This is frustrating, but it is still cheaper and MUCH faster than wet chemistry types of analysis. (I had a summer job years ago in a lab. It would take me 8 hours to get the weight % of one element in a sample.)

I was not able to measure the Sulfur content in Samples 8 and 9. I had the machine look specifically for Sulfur and it did not see it. I will post a picture of the spectrum so you can see the intensity peaks. Sulfur was flat. One odd thing about the machine is that if I tell it to look for an element, it will try to find it and if it does not see it, it will still show a value for the missing element even if it is negative. Not sure how Goodsteels guy found Sulfur, but I was not able to detect it.

Goodsteel was also kind enough to donate some Cerrosafe. I plan to mix known amounts of it into some samples and then see if any of it can be removed with different fluxxes. Unfortuneately I am travelling next week, so I will not be able to complete this testing for a while.

BNE

[BNE]

PS, How come my spacing on the numbers is not the way I typed them?? Sorry folks, I tried to make the data more clear than it looks now.

[MBTcustom]

I lost sample #6. There was only one sample and I lost the originals, so I went back to the bags cbrick sent and made more. Then, last week, I found the original samples (they fell behind the seat in my truck! LOL!)
Anyway, sorry about that BNE, I forgot to tell you we were one brick shy of a load.

[Certaindeaf]

Cerrosafe contains bismuth, lead, tin, and cadmium. I would be interested to see if fluxing with sawdust would remove the bismuth or cadmium.

I don't know of a simple way to introduce aluminum to the alloy or I would try that instead. Anyone know of a tin or lead based solder that contains aluminum?

Ok, I found a product called alumite. It is a solder/brazing rod for zinc or aluminum castings. It contains zinc, aluminum, copper, and magnesium. It melts at 728 F.

It isn't horribly expensive to get a small amount. You guys think that is a worthwhile group of metals to investigate the value of flux on?

I'd be leery of sending any aluminum out of my barrels.. aluminum oxidizes.. develops a coating or outer layer of aluminum oxide. Diamonds are harder but not by much.

[btroj]

Nobody is suggesting we use it in bullets, we are looking to see what, if any, metals are removed by fluxing with sawdust vs wax.

This is about removal of metals via fluxing. Before we can remove something it must be in the alloy, right? I proposed using a product to introduce a contaminant. At no time did anyone in this thread propose adding anything for the purpose of making bullets.

[Certaindeaf]

Nobody is suggesting we use it in bullets, we are looking to see what, if any, metals are removed by fluxing with sawdust vs wax.

This is about removal of metals via fluxing. Before we can remove something it must be in the alloy, right? I proposed using a product to introduce a contaminant. At no time did anyone in this thread propose adding anything for the purpose of making bullets.
Ah, I kind of suspected that.. I only read the last page. Looks like good work and a great thread. my bad!

[Old Caster]

BNE --Thank you for your help. Are there any bullets you need that you don't have a mold for that any of us could make for you. Do you need any brass that any of us might have in very copious amounts that we could share some with you. -- Bill --

[MBTcustom]

You know, I think back a year or so ago, I made the wild statement that COWW lead has less than 2% antimony and often less than 1% tin, and I caught a lot of static for saying that.
Interesting results in the previous pages for all the naysayers. Science is a real turd aint it?
So much of this sport started as science and has morphed into nothing more than a big fish story.

Got awful quiet in here once some real data started getting posted.
Keep it up BNE. We need to know what you have to say.
Thank you!

[jmort]

"clip-on WW with 2% pure tin added.
Pb= 95.1%
Sb= 2.6%
Sn= 2.2%"

You were right about the tin. Cbrick's web site has/had COWW 97.5% lead, 2% antimony, and .5% tin which was close. Numbers close enough to work with. Testing confirmed that he is an expert fluxer getting to 99.9% alloy with the remainder being arsenic it is presumed. You were also right to caution me against wasting money on testing as no caster in good standing would do so unless it was necessary. It was not necessary. All of this was very interesting.