30/30 winchester pushing the limits

[shredder]

Hello fellow addicts! Having been a member here and casting various lead objects to be hurled downrange for a good while now I need some answers.

First off:

Winchester 94, 20 inch barell full mag, 1975 vintage, excellent condition, like new.

Lee 170 grain FN( more accurate in my gun than the 150FN) over a charge of WIN 748.

Object: Hunting load
Alloy:WW with 2% tin
Velocity Target: 2100 FPS
Lube:Lithibee
Gas Check:Hornady
Sized: .309

So far I have loaded and shot 33 grains and 35 grains(MAX). The Lyman book lists 37.5 as max but at a velocity far above what I feel I need. I am looking to duplicate the classic 30/30 load ie. 170 lead FN@2100fps.

So, the question is-- Am I barking up the wrong tree? Can the boolits cast at this hardness perform the required task at this velocity? Should I go harder, softer, slower, faster(hope not)?

What say you of many years experience with the 30/30 in a 94? I need to hear actual experiences from the field with real rifles on real deer.

I am getting to be an old fart and I take pleasure in re creating the old days and enjoying my hunt on that basis.

[Loudenboomer]

Be careful pushing the limits we're only held together with 3 fingers and theory :)

[runfiverun]

if that load doesn't work on a deer I don't know of one that will.
high shoulder, neck, head, boiler room, all will lead to work starting.

the only thing i'd probably change is the diameter to .310

[Lead Fred]

My 30WCF rounds are the polar opposite from you.

I use a 165gr Ranch Dog flat nose, out of pure WW, water dropped.

I was using Reloader 7, but am currently trying SR4756.

I shoot them right at 1650fps, Why?
Maximum meat penetration.
Im working them down to 1450fps.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I use the 31141 at 184 grains weight sized, lubed, and checked in my m.94 with 31 grains of Varget in carefully prepped cases and have very good accuracy at 100 yards at approximately 2050+ FPS. No luck yet on deer , as other arms have apparentyl better luck with opportunities.

BvT

[KirkD]

As far as your cast bullets are concerned, I tried about 7 different cast boolits and found that as far as hardness is concerned, bullets made from pure wheel weights, but water dropped, gave the best accuracy. Water quenched ww gives a BHN of about 18. My bullets, of course, are gas checked. They can easily handle 2,200 fps.

[gnoahhh]

I think you're good to go right where you are. If anything, I would soften up the alloy a skinch and try that too. Can't have too soft bullets for hunting as far as I'm concerned. (If the alloy will sustain the speed of course.)

I normally use 170- 190's @ 1900 fps in .30-30 and .303 Savage for thumping deer, with alloys in the bhn 10-11 range and get plenty of penetration and expansion. No need to put up with more sturm und drang than necessary.

If a bullet of decent design gives plenty good field accuracy at .30-30 iron sight ranges, I pass on heat treating or water dropping them for added hardness and/or accuracy. I prefer maximum terminal performance over hair-splitting accuracy.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

What gnoahhh said.

[KCSO]

Used about the same load with 1/2 and 1/2 ww and lino to take a few deer and it works jus fine. Actually seems to expand as well or better than some jacketed loads.

[shredder]

Thanks for all the tips fellows. This is the first time I have ever tried to get a boolit up over 2000 fps, so I am a bit concerned over performance on game. Alloy hardness is certainly on my list. I have had success with softer alloy up to 1800 fps or so and that was certainly adequate to put a deer down last year with an 8mm KAR boolit.

[blikseme300]

My 30WCF rounds are the polar opposite from you.

I use a 165gr Ranch Dog flat nose, out of pure WW, water dropped.

I was using Reloader 7, but am currently trying SR4756.

I shoot them right at 1650fps, Why?
Maximum meat penetration.
Im working them down to 1450fps.

I use the same boolit at 1800fps with good accuracy and more than enough grunt to take deer and hogs here in deep south Texas. My experience has been that as I increased the velocity accuracy dropped off. Alloy used is 80% COWW and 20% lino.

[TXGunNut]

I was using Reloader 7, but am currently trying SR4756.-Lead Fred

Tried 2400? 14 grs should give you about 1600, Lead Fred.
My 35 Rem likes to go a bit faster for some reason but my other CB hunting rifle cartridges seem to be happier around 1600-1800 and it seems an ACWW GC boolit is pretty happy @ that speed also.

[shredder]

Nostalgia aside, I too have had best accuracy at 1400-1800 fps. I only want to go up to 2100 to duplicate the classic 30-30 load. There is really no reason to push that hard if the accuracy is not there. So far it has not been there for me....

The search continues.

[GabbyM]

Not knocking marlins. We have one. but since you have a Winny with real rifling and maybe even more important a 1:12" twist instead of the Marlins 1:10". You should be able to shoot fairly soft boolits at high speed. For a little ;over a year I've been burning through a pile of Saeco 150-FN bullets cast of BHN #9 alloy. As tested on a Saeco tester. You can cut into these with your fingernail. Haven't run them over a Chronny but with 26.0 grains of Rx7 under them they should be going over 2,000 fps.
I'd consider a BHN #9 to soft for deer at these speeds. They are going to mushroom all the way to the gas check then bust up. Remember guys a 150 grain is a short bullet. They work great for Illinois corn field country. Where we can't shoot deer with a rifle anyways. They are soft enough to avoid frequent ricochet. I've never observed one skip but we have plenty of rocks so it will happen.

Your alloy can vary depending upon the makeup of those scrap WW. You should be good to go. Perhaps even ideal. Been probably millions of bullets of that makeup sent through deer over the years. You'll get some expansion. Nose may loose a bit or bullet may hold onto it's mushroom. In a deer I'd almost guarantee a pass through ribs. With 2% tin ww alloy bullet will hold together pretty tough compared to straight WW. Your meet damage should be about right. Softer bullets will kill faster but take out a big slab of meet. Exit hole will likely be around half dollar to silver dollar sized after skinning. But the hole out the hide will be smaller. If you hit a deer in the shoulder you'll have a lot of damage. But we take the shot presented to us. Any way you look at it a 30-30 with a WW boolit will kill deer. It can not expand at all , mushroom perfect or frag out. End result is dead deer if it's hit in a kill zone. Biggest variable is the amount of meet left for the scavengers.

[w30wcf]

.......
Object: Hunting load / Alloy:WW with 2% tin / Velocity Target: 2100 FPS / Lube:Lithibee / Gas Check:Hornady / Sized: .309

So far I have loaded and shot 33 grains and 35 grains(MAX) W748. The Lyman book lists 37.5 as max but at a velocity far above what I feel I need. I am looking to duplicate the classic 30/30 load ie. 170 lead FN@2100fps. ........

Shredder,
Lyman must have been using a slow lot of 748 because Winchester / Hodgdon shows 32.0 grs. as max. giving 2,145 f.p.s. with a 170 gr. bullet (24" barrel). I have found, at least in my .30-30 leverguns, softer alloys at higher velocities give better accuracy with slower burning powders.

My choice has been H-414 or W760 (same powder) in the .30-30. 35 grs will push a 180 gr. cast bullet to a tad over 2,100 f.p.s. in my 336A (24") with good accuracy using air cooled w.w.+2% tin.....for the first 6 rounds or so. After that, groups will start to get larger. In other words, hunting accuracy is great.

A mix of w.w. and Lino (50/50) and accuracy is maintained for as many rounds as one wants to shoot in a range session.

If your unsized bullet is .310" or larger, try not sizing the bullet and just running the gas check in the sizing die far enough so that the diameter matches the bullet diameter and trying that over 32 grs. of 748.

I'm not familiar with lithibee lube. Is it a good lube for 2,000+ f.p.s. loads (??).

Good luck,
w30wcf

[fixerupper]

My 30WCF rounds are the polar opposite from you.

I use a 165gr Ranch Dog flat nose, out of pure WW, water dropped.

I was using Reloader 7, but am currently trying SR4756.

I shoot them right at 1650fps, Why?
Maximum meat penetration.
Im working them down to 1450fps.

Yup..... Love that RD Bullet. That and the 311440. Im becoming more and more of a proponent of big meplat harder bullets in the ThuddyThuddy. My microgroove Marlin likes em harder..... tho I drive mine around 1800 ish.

[1Shirt]

It has been my experience with hand loads over many years, that with both cast and jacketed, seldom is the best accuracy achieved at max vols. Max vols also are hard on brass, use more powder, etc.etc.etc.
1Shirt1

[OnHoPr]

Quote Originally Posted by shredder View Post
.......
Object: Hunting load / Alloy:WW with 2% tin / Velocity Target: 2100 FPS / Lube:Lithibee / Gas Check:Hornady / Sized: .309

So far I have loaded and shot 33 grains and 35 grains(MAX) W748. The Lyman book lists 37.5 as max but at a velocity far above what I feel I need. I am looking to duplicate the classic 30/30 load ie. 170 lead FN@2100fps. ........
w30WCF quote: Shredder,
Lyman must have been using a slow lot of 748 because Winchester / Hodgdon shows 32.0 grs. as max. giving 2,145 f.p.s. with a 170 gr. bullet (24" barrel). I have found, at least in my .30-30 leverguns, softer alloys at higher velocities give better accuracy with slower burning powders.

IMO I'd have to agree with w30WCF on that one with the powder charge. I like to push mine as fast as possible with accuracy for a couple of reasons. One, the faster they go the less wind deflection along with less trajectory there is and the other is somewhere in the 2100 to + fps gives me shots pass a couple hundred yards. In you ponder a couple hundred yard shot in more open woods, hitting power & speed is about the same as Lead Fred's concepts in actuality its just that LF likes to get up close and personal first. Most 30-30 loads produce tunnel wounds instead of hydrostatic shock anyways even though the ft lbs of energy are slightly different. The effects of a harder boolit with a big meplat and the softer boolit will be debated for I hope more centuries.

[shredder]

w30WCF- That load of 37.5 grains of 748 is from the current Lyman cast bullet handbook. They show loads for 2 different 170 grain cast one tops out at 35 the other 37.3. Velocity is listed as 2355 with 37.3 grains which is quite a load in the old lever gun. Over the top for what I am trying to do.
I have 760 too, but never thought of it for this task. Might have to give that a try.

[shredder]

It has been my experience with hand loads over many years, that with both cast and jacketed, seldom is the best accuracy achieved at max vols. Max vols also are hard on brass, use more powder, etc.etc.etc.
1Shirt1

You are so right on that. My most accurate loads have followed that pattern as well.

However for once in my life I am going to go just a bit over the line and see what I can do to get well past 1800 with accuracy.[smilie=l:

[w30wcf]

w30WCF- That load of 37.5 grains of 748 is from the current Lyman cast bullet handbook. They show loads for 2 different 170 grain cast one tops out at 35 the other 37.3. Velocity is listed as 2355 with 37.3 grains which is quite a load in the old lever gun. Over the top for what I am trying to do.
I have 760 too, but never thought of it for this task. Might have to give that a try.

That load recommendation first appeared in their manual going way back to 1980 and they have just repeated in each successive manual since then. They really should update with currently produced powder. If you try W760 you might just find success........ Tap the side of the case with the nose of the bullet to settle the powder before seating it or pour the charge slowly through the funnel so that it settles.

w30wcf

[TXGunNut]

It has been my experience with hand loads over many years, that with both cast and jacketed, seldom is the best accuracy achieved at max vols. Max vols also are hard on brass, use more powder, etc.etc.etc.
1Shirt1

I've only run into a few exceptions to that, 22-250 and 44 Mag. They seem to be happiest at the top end. I have a few max loads for .223 and 30-06 that perform very well also. I even have a pretty warm 45 Colt load that is very accurate but I'm convinced one could build an accurate 45 Colt load for anywhere from 700 fps to 1400 fps.
But yes, max loads are hard on brass, guns, shoulders and component budgets.
OTOH I think a good-fitting GC boolit of proper alloy should have no problem reaching 2100 fps in the thutty-thutty. I thought I could get there with RL-7 powder, no luck yet but my "new" rifle hasn't been to the range yet. I think RD boolits like to go fast, thinking the Lee will too.

[geargnasher]

748 is a good one. I think since Hodgdon is in charge now they test each new lot of ball powder and throw it in a 748, H335, Ball C-2, or H380 can depending on how it happens to burn. I've seen a LOT of lot-to-lot variance in the past few years, bringing me to rework some pet loads over a chrono to restore accuracy/performance.

Anyway, air-cooled WW with a pinch of tin will do well up near the top with slower powders in the Winchester. I would size the boolits as large as will chamber, the '94 I'm playing with now will take a .311" but not a .312", it was made in 1966 but wasn't fired until this year and then only with cast. It shoots like a laser beam with my Marlin ammunition which is just above a starting charge of RX7, a 311041 @.311" out of water-quenched 50/50 WW/pure plus one percent tin, and the proper compression of BPI Original shot buffer. That one is good for a shade over 2100 fps once I got the exact compression and case prep procedures dialed-in.

Gear

[shredder]

That load recommendation first appeared in their manual going way back to 1980 and they have just repeated in each successive manual since then. They really should update with currently produced powder. If you try W760 you might just find success........ Tap the side of the case with the nose of the bullet to settle the powder before seating it or pour the charge slowly through the funnel so that it settles.

w30wcf

Interesting. I am going to have a session with 760 and see if anything gets better.

[shredder]

748 is a good one. I think since Hodgdon is in charge now they test each new lot of ball powder and throw it in a 748, H335, Ball C-2, or H380 can depending on how it happens to burn. I've seen a LOT of lot-to-lot variance in the past few years, bringing me to rework some pet loads over a chrono to restore accuracy/performance.

Anyway, air-cooled WW with a pinch of tin will do well up near the top with slower powders in the Winchester. I would size the boolits as large as will chamber, the '94 I'm playing with now will take a .311" but not a .312", it was made in 1966 but wasn't fired until this year and then only with cast. It shoots like a laser beam with my Marlin ammunition which is just above a starting charge of RX7, a 311041 @.311" out of water-quenched 50/50 WW/pure plus one percent tin, and the proper compression of BPI Original shot buffer. That one is good for a shade over 2100 fps once I got the exact compression and case prep procedures dialed-in.

Gear
Water quenched 50/50 with a pinch of tin. Wonder how hard they would be? Thanks for posting that gear, you have been where I am attempting to go. I am a little surprised at the use of BPI buffer with a load of this density, but after a few years of cast boolit experimentation nothing should surprise me anymore. In this game it seems to be all in the details

[GabbyM]

Best way to get more speed from a 30-30 is to load it with Hodgdon LeverEvolution powder.
Gives you more velocity with less pressure. Powder likes cast bullets of 170 grains and heavier in the 30-30.

Water dropped 50/50 alloy is a tried and true hunting boolit alloy. Expands well and is malleable enough to hold together.

[Huntsman]

Best way to get more speed from a 30-30 is to load it with Hodgdon LeverEvolution powder.
Gives you more velocity with less pressure. Powder likes cast bullets of 170 grains and heavier in the 30-30.

Water dropped 50/50 alloy is a tried and true hunting boolit alloy. Expands well and is malleable enough to hold together.

It just so happens I picked up a couple lbs of the LeverEvolution. Before that I was using Accurate 5744 (20grs) and Lyman #2 alloy. Now I'm back to water dropped, gas checked boolits with IMR 3031. I was unsure of the LeverEvolution powder thinking it was too hot or fast, but I guess if your boolit is gas checked then there's little room for worry.
It won't hurt to try, Thanks GabbyM

[williamwaco]

748 is a good one. I think since Hodgdon is in charge now they test each new lot of ball powder and throw it in a 748, H335, Ball C-2, or H380 can depending on how it happens to burn. I've seen a LOT of lot-to-lot variance in the past few years, bringing me to rework some pet loads over a chrono to restore accuracy/performance.

Anyway, air-cooled WW with a pinch of tin will do well up near the top with slower powders in the Winchester. I would size the boolits as large as will chamber, the '94 I'm playing with now will take a .311" but not a .312", it was made in 1966 but wasn't fired until this year and then only with cast. It shoots like a laser beam with my Marlin ammunition which is just above a starting charge of RX7, a 311041 @.311" out of water-quenched 50/50 WW/pure plus one percent tin, and the proper compression of BPI Original shot buffer. That one is good for a shade over 2100 fps once I got the exact compression and case prep procedures dialed-in.

Gear


+1 Except I use 3031.

[GabbyM]

It just so happens I picked up a couple lbs of the LeverEvolution. Before that I was using Accurate 5744 (20grs) and Lyman #2 alloy. Now I'm back to water dropped, gas checked boolits with IMR 3031. I was unsure of the LeverEvolution powder thinking it was too hot or fast, but I guess if your boolit is gas checked then there's little room for worry.
It won't hurt to try, Thanks GabbyM

Here is Larry Gibson's thread from a couple years back. Five pages on H-LVR powder.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?115657-LeveRevoltuion-Powder

[geargnasher]

My clippy weights, straight, air-cooled, come about about 13-14 bhn. 50/50 with pure lead and 1% additional pure tin, cast from a mould hot enough to put a light, even, satin frost on the boolits (about 430F mould temp) and 700-ish alloy, dropped IMMEDIATELY from the mould into a bucket of room-temperature rainwater (mineral free), come out between 19 and 21 BHN depending on caliber, after an aging period of three weeks to a month. The older they get, the better they shoot. Two-three months is a good "full maturity" estimate.

I've found that this alloy is more or less "armor piercing" on flesh until you get it up to about 2K fps, but that's where it starts to shine. It also shoots more accurately than higher-antimony, air-cooled alloys do at high velocity. Good expansion without disintegrating or over-expanding on bone, excellent penetration, high weight retention, and high-velocity accuracy capability, it's a "win" all the way around for pushing the upper end of things in a hunting load.

Gear

[randyrat]

IMR 3031 and it smells good to boot

[bandit7.5]

You be very careful pushing the limits of a 94 Winchester they are waaay more limited than a real Marlin.

[jlchucker]

What 1shirt says .

[gwpercle]

Cast boolits don't need the speed a J-word does. Hard brittle boolits at higher speed tend to fracture, not optimum for preventing meat damage. After a lot of reading and some shooting/hunting I'm starting to think the 30-30 works best with softer ( 50/50 ACWW and range lead) 170 gr GC boolit at 1600 to 1800 fps. I certianly get better accuracy from my Model 94 at those speeds and believe the softer boolit my behave better on game.
Probably the truth is what my Paw-Paw told me long ago "it don't much matter what you shoot em with , what matters is where you place the boolit" the old man maybe had it right.

Gary

[Lead Fred]

I was using Reloader 7, but am currently trying SR4756.-Lead Fred

Tried 2400? 14 grs should give you about 1600, Lead Fred.


2400 isnt one of the powders I stock. I have many pounds of Reloader-7, and just got some 4756 in a trade

[TXGunNut]

2400 isnt one of the powders I stock. I have many pounds of Reloader-7, and just got some 4756 in a trade

I'm not having very good luck getting the RL-7 to go fast in 30-30.
Hope the 4756 works out for you.

[rintinglen]

I've fired 1,000's of heat treated wheel weight 311-041s using 34 grains of 748. It was my ram load for years while shooting lever action silhouette. I needed the hottest accurate load to knock over those heavy, hard set rams at 237 yards, which was the distance to the ram line at my old gun club. That was what I settled on after much experimentation.
Size .310, use a LEE FCD, and be prepared to buy more brass--4 firings and you are done...unless you like case-head separations.