How to KILL Rust??

[nicholst55]

Okay hive mind. We've got a VERY expensive 3-barrel .50 Ballistic Test Fixture here, with three HUGE Bartlein bull barrels on it. Chrome moly steel, unfortunately. The boys shot it with LC 43 M33 Ball ammo, and IF they cleaned it at all, they cleaned it like it was non-corrosive ammo despite me telling them otherwise.

I didn't see it for about a week afterwards, and by then it was rapidly becoming a rust bucket. I flushed the bores with water the best I could (kind of difficult, owing to the configuration), scrubbed the bores with a bore brush and more water, then patched it (and patched it and patched it), until the rust was mostly gone. A few days later I punched it again, and got more rust. I swabbed the bores repeatedly with a baking soda slurry trying to kill the rust.

One bore is pretty clean; the other two are still rusting pretty badly. Yesterday I swabbed the bores with straight Ballistol (I HATE that smell!!), and then they took it out to shoot it again.

I'm pretty limited on what methods or equipment I can use - this belongs to Uncle. I'm going to hit it with a 10/90 Ballistol/water solution when they bring it back, but I expect it will still be rusting from the first times it was fired.

I know how to clean following corrosive-primed ammo. What I need to do is to KILL the rust.

Suggestions?

[Pb2au]

Offhand I would say to use the old reliable 50/50 mix of ATF and either acetone or kerosene. I have found that stuff more or less dissolves rust, plus leaves a film of sorts behind to coat the metal. It would take a bit of soaking time to really dig into the offending rust, but it should work like gangbusters.
I wonder if naval jelly might be an option? Let's see what the rest of the kids have to suggest.

[groovy mike]

Breakfree or similar rust remover, swab dry and then soak with motor oil would be what I would try.

[nicholst55]

Breakfree or similar rust remover, swab dry and then soak with motor oil would be what I would try.

I tried CLP, too; neglected to mention that. I'm thinking about trying some Birchwood Casey Blue and Rust Remover, and the ATF/acetone mix.

[Chook]

Well I don't know how easy that rig is to handle, but I have used Evapo-rust to restore old car parts that were rusted. It is a non-toxic, safe product that removes only the rust and won't touch the steel. It DOES remove bluing however, as I soaked a corroded blackpowder barrel in it, and it removed the rust bluing/browning right up to the edge where the liquid was. Do a search for it, amazing stuff, and when you're finished with it, you can just pour it away.

[ElDorado]

Try some Kroil, too.

[smokeywolf]

Anything that removes rust is almost certain to also remove bluing. Rust and bluing are both a form of oxidation.

[nicholst55]

No bluing to worry about; the barrels are in the white. Unfortunately the thing weighs about 350 pounds and is 5 feet long, so its pretty difficult to maneuver - even being mounted on casters. I've got plenty of Kroil, so I'll try that after I swab it out with Ballistol and water. If that doesn't work, I'll buy some Birchwood Casey Blue and Rust Remover.

[oldred]

Before using Kroil, tranny fluid or any oil you need to STOP the rust chemically and not just cut off the oxygen from getting to it. Get a phosphoric acid solution (don't be afraid of the word "acid" here as this is the same stuff found in soft drinks) such as "Oxpho" (been around just about forever for this purpose) or any number of different brands of the same Phosphoric acid solution that can be found at most home suppliers, Lowes, Home Depot, etc or most auto parts stores and paint suppliers. This stuff works like magic on rust! First it dissolves any rust already formed and stops the rusting process plus it leaves a rust resistant Phosphate coating on the metal surface, you need to STOP this rust but oils will only slow it down and do little or nothing to remove any that has already formed. The Phosphoric acid solutions I am talking about are just for this very purpose and have been used for this for over 75 years-it works!

[M-Tecs]

Evapo-rust has a federal stock number. You can find it on their web site.

[John Boy]

Ballitol is nothing more than mineral oil - forget using it ...
As long as you have no pitting - wrap steel wool on a jag and coat it with the acetone:ATF mix. Do about 40 swabs refreshing the 50:50. Let it sit for an hour or so to break the rust. Patch the bore good. Then with a loose patch, swab the bore with Eezox and let it sit over night

[Dan Cash]

Breakfree or similar rust remover, swab dry and then soak with motor oil would be what I would try.

Break Free is useless where corrosive primers are concerned. I would try either the ATF/KERO mix or some old time Rifle Bore Cleaner if you can find some. An Army Marksmanship Unit or Marine equivalent should have some.

[drhall762]

Any dilute acid will remove the rust.

[oldred]

Any dilute acid will remove the rust.

Yes it will but Hydrochloric (Muriatic) acid or Sulfuric acid will set in motion a chemical reaction that is hard to stop and will lead to further rusting, sure it CAN be neutralized but doing so is not as simple as just rinsing it out. Nothing beats the Phosphoric acid solution I mentioned earlier and these products are made and sold expressly for the purpose the OP wants, they have been around for years and are well proven to remove rust and leave a rust resistant Phosphate surface on the metal. Evapo-Rust works also but it is a chelating compound that takes a long time to work and generally requires being either totally submerged in the solution or having the solution flowing over it, in both instances it takes quite a long time in order for it to work and even then it does not leave a rust resistant surface. The Phosphoric acid solutions are cheap,easy to find and work like a charm!

[nicholst55]

Okay, I'm convinced. I'm heading to Home Depot and buying some Phosphoric Acid. It would take weeks to order anything through the supply system, so I'll just buy the stuff myself.

[MtGun44]

Naval Jelly, which is a dilute phosphoric acid and soap (to cut oils and wet the surface)
and the viscosity increased so it will stay put a while when wiped on.

This will chemically neutralize the rust and stabilize the surface. All the
oils are fine but AFTER chemically solving your problem.

Bill

[pdawg_shooter]

I have had good luck with a mix of..1/3 Kroil, 1/3 atf, and 1/3 Mineral spirits.

[oldred]

I have had good luck with a mix of..1/3 Kroil, 1/3 atf, and 1/3 Mineral spirits.

That mix will cut off the oxygen, just as would regular motor oil, but would do very little to stop the rusting process chemically, also any rust removed would have to be done by mechanical means such as wire brushing since most oils do not dissolve rust. Penetrating oils such as Kroil, WD40, PB Blaster, etc are more solvent than oil and will, to some degree anyway, loosen the fully oxidized metal but do little or nothing to the still active rust which is the main problem. The reddish brown material we all call "rust" is actually iron oxide or completely oxidized iron (basically the ash left over from the oxidizing/rusting process) and this is usually fairly easy to remove however the dividing layer between that oxide and virgin metal is still in an active state trying to combine with oxygen molecules, basically it can be thought of as burning and it's this "fire" that needs to be extinguished in order to stop the process. Completely removing the oxidized iron and the actively oxidizing layer then protecting the surface from further contact with oxygen is the way to stop rust but oils are only part of this equation, they block contact with oxygen and can be helpful in slowing or sometimes even halting the process but only so long as they are on the surface in a heavy enough layer since the actual rust remains active. Chemical removal or mechanical means of removal such as sanding or sand blasting needs to be done before using any method such as oils or paint are used to block oxygen contact, in a nutshell first the "fire" needs to be extinguished before steps are taken to prevent it from reigniting.

[pdawg_shooter]

That mix will cut off the oxygen, just as would regular motor oil, but would do very little to stop the rusting process chemically, also any rust removed would have to be done by mechanical means such as wire brushing since most oils do not dissolve rust. Penetrating oils such as Kroil, WD40, PB Blaster, etc are more solvent than oil and will, to some degree anyway, loosen the fully oxidized metal but do little or nothing to the still active rust which is the main problem. The reddish brown material we all call "rust" is actually iron oxide or completely oxidized iron (basically the ash left over from the oxidizing/rusting process) and this is usually fairly easy to remove however the dividing layer between that oxide and virgin metal is still in an active state trying to combine with oxygen molecules, basically it can be thought of as burning and it's this "fire" that needs to be extinguished in order to stop the process. Completely removing the oxidized iron and the actively oxidizing layer then protecting the surface from further contact with oxygen is the way to stop rust but oils are only part of this equation, they block contact with oxygen and can be helpful in slowing or sometimes even halting the process but only so long as they are on the surface in a heavy enough layer since the actual rust remains active. Chemical removal or mechanical means of removal such as sanding or sand blasting needs to be done before using any method such as oils or paint are used to block oxygen contact, in a nutshell first the "fire" needs to be extinguished before steps are taken to prevent it from reigniting.

Been working fine for me for almost 50 years now. If it aint broke don't **** with it.

[oldred]

Been working fine for me for almost 50 years now. If it aint broke don't **** with it.


Didn't say it didn't work for you but what you listed is nothing but oil and solvent, as long as rust is kept under oil it won't continue to grow but it's still lurking waiting for the chance! Mineral spirits and the solvents in the Kroil will loosen the completely oxidized iron, the reddish brown residue we call rust, but it will not remove the still active part of the surface nor will it stop the reaction except to starve it for oxygen. With just light surface rust with no more than light pitting all the rust can usually be removed by wire brushing or steel wool then a good oiling and the problem is solved but with heavier rust and pits, that usually don't work so well since brushing and/or rubbing with steel wool cannot abrade the material out of the bottoms of these pits nor will solvents remove this rust and this problem will be much more of a problem when inside the bore! Solvents do allow oil to wick into rust but again that just cuts off the oxygen and the hidden rust is still lurking waiting for the chance to become active again.

[waksupi]

Heat the barrel a bit, and pour boiling water over it. That converts the rust, to rust bluing. Buff with 0000 steel wool, and it's cured.

[pdawg_shooter]

Didn't say it didn't work for you but what you listed is nothing but oil and solvent, as long as rust is kept under oil it won't continue to grow but it's still lurking waiting for the chance! Mineral spirits and the solvents in the Kroil will loosen the completely oxidized iron, the reddish brown residue we call rust, but it will not remove the still active part of the surface nor will it stop the reaction except to starve it for oxygen. With just light surface rust with no more than light pitting all the rust can usually be removed by wire brushing or steel wool then a good oiling and the problem is solved but with heavier rust and pits, that usually don't work so well since brushing and/or rubbing with steel wool cannot abrade the material out of the bottoms of these pits nor will solvents remove this rust and this problem will be much more of a problem when inside the bore! Solvents do allow oil to wick into rust but again that just cuts off the oxygen and the hidden rust is still lurking waiting for the chance to become active again.

I spen 24 years as a FFL holding gunsmith and had a bunch of neglected firearmes come my way. That mix cured them all.

[500MAG]

82175
Works great

[John Allen]

I agree on the acid. I have used acids to clean metals myself. Make sure to start off with a light acid mixture. I have had problems when using a pure acid on certain metals. I am sure someone else will chime in here on whether or not I am off base here.

[John Allen]

Heat the barrel a bit, and pour boiling water over it. That converts the rust, to rust bluing. Buff with 0000 steel wool, and it's cured.

Another great idea.

[uscra112]

So far only oldred has it right. Everything else is either a bandaid on a bullet hole, or risks further damage to the metal.

Hard to do in a rifle bore, but the electrolytic method is also good.

[oldred]

I spent 24 years as a FFL holding gunsmith and had a bunch of neglected firearms come my way. That mix cured them all.



The OP asked how to KILL rust not just how to put it in hibernation and that's all oils do to it. I have been fighting the rust demon for over 40 years (on a lot more than just fire arms) and he is an insidious and diabolical adversary that takes a lot more than just oil to completely stop, no matter what the "mix" of oils and solvents or the brands used in the end they are still just oil. No one said scrubbing down rust with a brush and oil would never stop rust and in fact I said that light rusting can be removed with wire brushing and solvents but not heavier or pitted rusting, these can be held dormant with oils but only so long as the oil is present, remove that oil and it WILL become active again. Oil does not "cure" or "kill" rust it simply puts it in remission unless the rust is COMPLETELY removed first!


Just another note about using acids other than Phosphoric, Hydrochloric (Muriatic) acid can also induce Hydrogen embrittlement in steel making it more likely to crack. I don't know for sure how much damage a light solution of this acid would do if only in contact for the few minutes it would take to remove rust but for sure it would not be good for it! Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acids will etch right down into the surface of the metal and become VERY difficult to remove or neutralize (although with enough effort it can be done ok) leaving the surface very much prone to further rusting even if it looks perfectly clean at the time. I know some rust bluing solutions contain Hydrochloric acid but the amount is extremely diluted and not nearly strong enough to use as a rust remover, basically it would be a good idea to never let Hydrochloric or Sulfuric acids come in contact with any part of a firearm.

[oldred]

82175
Works great


Yes this does work and it works pretty good but you can buy a quart of Ospho for about the same price and they are both Phosphoric acid solutions, the Birchwood Casey also contains trace amounts of Sulfuric and Oxalic acids so after use it might a good idea to scrub the surface with a soda/water solution to neutralize any acids that might be left, it does however also leave the rust resistant Phosphate like the other rust removers.

[Capt. Methane]

If you have trouble finding phosphoric acid solutions pick up coil cleaner from someplace like NAPA-it is for cleaning/removing corrosion from air conditioning coils but the active ingredient is phosphoric acid and it is intended to be removed and neutralized by rinsing with water...aluminum can be pretty susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement so this is a product that should not lead to that problem.

[BeeMan]

The same citric acid many have started using for brass cleaning will also remove rust (red iron oxide) from iron based alloys, i.e. steel. At the right concentration, citric acid will remove the rust without affecting the non-rusted steel underneath.

[longbow]

Here's another vote for phosphoric acid/naval jelly. It kills rust and removes it, even in the pits and micropores. You do have to wash off, dry and oil or rust will bloom almost immediately on the raw steel.

Cold blue should stop the rust from starting up again but probably isn't necessary a long as the bore is oiled after rust removal.

I have used naval jelly and automotive type products containing phosphoric acid on neglected boolit moulds, abused/neglected tools and other steel items with very good success. Haven't had to do a gun bore yet.

I wouldn't argue with waksupi either as my understanding is that rust bluing is indeed stopped by heat/boiling water. I have not tried it myself.

Longbow

[oldred]

The boiling water trick would seem to work depending on how heavy the rust is but I wonder how much it would help for heavy rust in pits, maybe it would, certainly something to think about and worthy of a bit of experimentation. Going to have to give that one a try!


Some of the oil and solvent mixes mentioned might be good after the rust is dealt with but compared to the Phosphoric acid solutions they simply hold rust at bay as long as the oil is present. Consider this, if a rusty part is dipped in Phosphoric acid for a few minutes (maybe longer if the rust is heavy) and brushed lightly the rust will be gone right down to the bottoms of the pits and light rust doesn't even need brushing for this to happen! Now take the same piece and dip it in a can of oil for a few minutes or even a couple of days, hey leave it for six months, and when it is removed it will still be just as rusty as it was when it was placed in the oil -no worse but no better either! The point is no matter what kind of oil mix if the oil is removed the rust will become active again, oils are certainly good but the rust needs to be dealt with first.

[historicfirearms]

Any chance we could see a picture of the rig you are trying to stop the rust on? I'm not quite sure what it is, but it sounds interesting.

[220swiftfn]

The only thing that I can add to the discussion (beg pardon if it's been mentioned before) is this..... The old military bore cleaner and have the numbskulls that loused it up, clean it up......



Dan

[Newboy]

Corrosion-X will kill the rust.

[Outpost75]

On antique armored vehicles and vintage artillery we use THIS stuff!

http://www.gemplers.com/tech/mremovefaq.htm

[thekidd76]

^^I've used and had buddies who used this same stuff, and it works great. Wouldn't suggest it for the bore of a rifle, but works great on cars and motorcycle frames.

[oldred]

On antique armored vehicles and vintage artillery we use THIS stuff!

http://www.gemplers.com/tech/mremovefaq.htm

That would not work at all for the OP's purpose since it does not remove the rust, it "converts" it and not only leaves the rust build-up but adds a rather thick layer of the product itself (a synthetic latex material) which would hardly be acceptable on the outside of a firearm never mind inside the bore. These products do work fairly well and can be purchased under a number of brand names, one the most popular of which is the Permatex "Extend" brand which can be found at most auto parts stores or even at Wally World. These products do not remove rust or "convert" it very deep but they do change the chemical structure for a thin layer that becomes inert and blocks Oxygen from reaching the underlying rust which keeps it from growing. Still this product leaves a rather thick layer like paint and it is in fact recommended that the treated surface be painted after application in most cases. Actually these products work quite well and I have used quite a bit of it on farm equipment restoration and auto body rust, in the case of the auto body repair it only works if both sides of the rusty panel is treated and protected but it's still just a "bandaid" approach at auto body rust repair and I can't think of a single use for it on firearms.

[oldred]

Corrosion-X will kill the rust.


Corrosion-X is nothing but penetrating oil and is just a blend of light oils and solvents that wick the oil into the loose rust, while it works as well or maybe even better than most oil/solvent solutions in the end it is still just applying oil to the problem and rust/corrosion is held at bay only so long as the oils in the solution remain.


The theory behind the penetrating oil type treatments is that the aromatic solvents thin the oil and wick it into the rust then evaporate leaving the oil behind in a heavier form that has been "soaked" up by the rust. While this works to an extent it does not stop the underlying problem and that is the still active layer between the loose rust and the parent metal, this layer is still active and whether or not rust reappears is totally dependent on not losing that oily layer above it. Inside a bore it becomes impossible to maintain an oily surface and if there are microscopic pits containg active rust this will grow if it's given the chance, again oils are good BUT the OP asked how to kill rust and oils simply do not do that.

[uscra112]

Corrosion-X is nothing but penetrating oil and is just a blend of light oils and solvents that wick the oil into the loose rust, while it works as well or maybe even better than most oil/solvent solutions in the end it is is still just applying oil to the problem and rust/corrosion is held at bay only so long as the oils in the solution remain.


The theory behind the penetrating oil type treatments is that the aromatic solvents thin the oil and wick it into the rust then evaporate leaving the oil behind in a heavier form that has been "soaked" up by the rust. While this works to an extent it does not stop the underlying problem and that is the still active layer between the loose rust and the parent metal, this layer is still active and whether or not rust reappears is totally dependent on not losing that oily layer above it. Inside a bore it becomes impossible to maintain an oily surface and if there are microscopic pits containg active rust this will grow if it's given the chance, again oils are good BUT the OP asked how to kill rust and oils simply do not do that.

Listen to the man, y'all !

[nicholst55]

Any chance we could see a picture of the rig you are trying to stop the rust on? I'm not quite sure what it is, but it sounds interesting.

I'll see if I can sneak my camera into the shop and snap a couple of pix. Cameras aren't allowed without special authorization - never mind that everybody has a camera phone...

ETA: Here's a link to the manufacturer's website. Our fixture looks very similar to the one pictured at the lower left of the page's heading. If you link to their 3-Gun system, it shows a much different version. As I undeerstand it, ours was the only existing .50 BMG version made at the time (last year). We have significantly reworked it here at YPG, but you get the impression. I recommended that they switch the .50 BMG version to either chrome-lined or stainless steel barrels last year, but no action has been taken.

We use the fixture for bullet-impact testing on artillery ammo, among other things.

http://www.bosik.com/3_barrel_gun.php

[nicholst55]

Updated with link to manufacturer's website.

[andremajic]

Tannic acid will bind to the iron oxide and convert it to ferric tannate. It's used by museum personnel to preserve arrows and ancient steel parts as they're uncovered. It's also one of the main ingredients to most anti-rust products, like evaporust.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tannic-Acid-Powder-Laboratory-Chemical-100g-/310744765259?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4859d4d34b#ht_2659wt_1170

(You could make your own from tea leaves, tree bark, with acetone and a double boiler/distiller, but that seems like a bit of work)

Soak the parts overnight in the tannic acid that's been disolved in distilled water. The finish is fragile, and the deactivated iron will flake off if you brush it with a stiff bristle.

If you wanted to make it more durable for a finish, you would need to add phosphoric acid to the mix, and well as other ingredients to help the ingredients penetrate deeper like wetting agents. Since it's inside your bore, you WANT it to flake off, so I would use some steel wool wrapped around an old worn out brush to knock it off.
You may need to repeat the process if it's got heavy scale to get deeper down, but if it's light just one treatment should work well.

I was thinking of using this with experimentation for rust bluing, but the finish is not durable. But it will really help if you're trying to REMOVE rust.

Using electrolysis will also remove the rust in a non-destructive method. Baking soda and water mix applied as an electrolyte solution with a steel rod wrapped every 4 inches with electrical tape to keep the rod from shorting out. Plug the bore, add solution, energize, wait, and then scrub the rust that deposits on your rod off with a piece of rough steel wool. Repeat until no rust is deposited on your rod. Search for electrolysis rust removal on youtube.
Brownells and midway sell a rust removal system that consists of a battery pack, some wire, and a rod and some "special solution" for 135.00 but I'd rather just use the stuff sitting around my house instead.

Andy

[oldred]

Using electrolysis will also remove the rust in a non-destructive method. Baking soda and water mix applied as an electrolyte solution


All good info, very good info in fact, BUT the electrolysis method uses washing soda (Sodium Carbonate) instead of baking soda (Sodium BI-Carbonate). Backing soda can be used if washing soda is not available for some reason but the washing soda works a LOT better!

[contender1]

Google a product called "rustpissesme off"
A gun engineer developed this stuff.

[nicholst55]

Tannic acid will bind to the iron oxide and convert it to ferric tannate. It's used by museum personnel to preserve arrows and ancient steel parts as they're uncovered. It's also one of the main ingredients to most anti-rust products, like evaporust.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tannic-Acid-Powder-Laboratory-Chemical-100g-/310744765259?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4859d4d34b#ht_2659wt_1170

(You could make your own from tea leaves, tree bark, with acetone and a double boiler/distiller, but that seems like a bit of work)

Soak the parts overnight in the tannic acid that's been disolved in distilled water. The finish is fragile, and the deactivated iron will flake off if you brush it with a stiff bristle.

If you wanted to make it more durable for a finish, you would need to add phosphoric acid to the mix, and well as other ingredients to help the ingredients penetrate deeper like wetting agents. Since it's inside your bore, you WANT it to flake off, so I would use some steel wool wrapped around an old worn out brush to knock it off.
You may need to repeat the process if it's got heavy scale to get deeper down, but if it's light just one treatment should work well.

I was thinking of using this with experimentation for rust bluing, but the finish is not durable. But it will really help if you're trying to REMOVE rust.

Using electrolysis will also remove the rust in a non-destructive method. Baking soda and water mix applied as an electrolyte solution with a steel rod wrapped every 4 inches with electrical tape to keep the rod from shorting out. Plug the bore, add solution, energize, wait, and then scrub the rust that deposits on your rod off with a piece of rough steel wool. Repeat until no rust is deposited on your rod. Search for electrolysis rust removal on youtube.
Brownells and midway sell a rust removal system that consists of a battery pack, some wire, and a rod and some "special solution" for 135.00 but I'd rather just use the stuff sitting around my house instead.

Andy

I think I'll just stick to the phosphoric acid, rather than mixing a witches brew of stuff that will probably get me in trouble if I get caught. ;)


Google a product called "rustpissesme off"
A gun engineer developed this stuff.

Their web page comes up for me, but it's blank.

[Newboy]

Old red,

You sound like you are knowledgable about the Corrosion-X, but I have used it a lot in the past on corroded electrical and electronic components, and have found that it removes the oxidation, not just cover it with oil.

[contender1]

****. I know the engineer and I have used their stuff.

Ok, here is where you can contact them;
Targething Inc
Garrettsville Oh.
440-548-2442
Speak to Amanda.

They have a two part easy to use solution that is designed to "remove corrosion damage to chambers."

If you have a bit of trouble getting to Amanda,, her father has been in & out of the hospital lately. Have patience.

[oldred]

Old red,

You sound like you are knowledgable about the Corrosion-X, but I have used it a lot in the past on corroded electrical and electronic components, and have found that it removes the oxidation, not just cover it with oil.


That's just the solvents at work on the Copper and Aluminum oxidation (like contact cleaners), Corrosion-X is good stuff for what it is however it's effect on iron oxide is to loosen the fully oxidized iron (red rust) with solvents and wick the oils into the remaining rust to leave a layer of oils which act like any other oil at smothering the rust. This works fine as long as the oils remain and in most cases they will remain a very long time unless removed with more solvent or exposure to conditions that erode them from the surface, certainly they would not remain effective inside a gun bore such as the situation the OP has.



Consider this, if light rusting has started to appear on a firearm, and I think probably most of us have had to deal with this, a light rubbing with steel wool and your favorite oil/solvent concoction will remove the VISIBLE rust. Then as long as the surface is kept oiled, like we usually do on our firearms (after all who doesn't?) then the rust is not likely to return but that does not necessarily mean it has been eliminated. If we then either neglect the gun and allow the the oily surface to wear off or if we inadvertently wipe it off with solvent the the very first place rust is going to reappear is where it had been treated before! Don't misunderstand, I am not knocking the products and they, along with most of the other oil suggestions, are really good at preventing rust from starting or smothering rust that may already exist but they do not "kill" or permanently stop the rust by removing and/or rendering inert the still active part of the oxidizing iron. Unless the active part is removed, not just the visible red rust we can see, the rust is still lurking under that oily layer and will become active again if it is allowed to come into contact with oxygen which it will do if the oily layer is compromised.

[Janoosh]

Thanks Oldred..lots of great info there.....now to the point....shouldn't what caused the rust in the first place be addressed? Coating over the rust problem is just burying the initial cause...isn't it?..

[gwpercle]

Good old fashion Navel Jelly will remove and kill rust but it also removes blue , most paints and plastics. But it will do the job. Hardware stores usually carry it. Good luck.

Gary

[oldred]

Thanks Oldred..lots of great info there.....now to the point....shouldn't what caused the rust in the first place be addressed? Coating over the rust problem is just burying the initial cause...isn't it?..


Well that's what I have been trying to say, don't just cover up the problem and keep it at bay eliminate it instead! That's what Phosphoric acid will do, eliminate both the reddish brown loose rust (actually the left over residue from the rusting process) and halt the actual rusting process going on in the still active part of the metal under the rust we can see. Of course what caused the rust in the first place needs to be dealt with also but this is usually due to neglect of proper cleaning/oiling and allowing unprotected metal to come into contact with coorsive agents, be it corrosive loading components, salts from handling or just plain old moisture.


Of course Phosphoric acid products CANNOT be used on a blued surface as they will instantly remove any bluing they come in contact with! If the rust is light enough to remove with fine steel wool or just by brushing then oils/solvents and vigorous scrubbing can usually solve the problem as long as the necessary scrubbing is not so severe as to ruin the bluing, when light rust is removed in this manner it becomes even more important to maintain the oily surface in the rusted area than it will for undamaged areas. If the rust is so severe as to require heavy abrasion or pits are involved then drastic measures are called for anyway but my point all along has been to not confuse holding rust at bay by smothering it with oil and actually eliminating it by chemical means.

[oldred]

Good old fashion Navel Jelly will remove and kill rust but it also removes blue , most paints and plastics. But it will do the job. Hardware stores usually carry it. Good luck.

Gary


Good old fashioned Navel Jelly does indeed work like a charm and has done so for many years! Navel Jelly is Phosphoric acid in a gelled form so that it will cling to surfaces without running off and I have used this stuff to remove some very heavy rust on tractor parts, it's one of those long used Phosphoric acid products I mentioned at the beginning of this discussion.



A hint for better results when using Navel Jelly on heavy rust, apply a thick coat then cover it with plastic sheeting like a trash bag or even food wrap. This will keep it from drying out so fast and you definitely don't want to allow it dry on the surface as this will leave a coating that will be a real PITA to remove!

[historicfirearms]

Thanks nicholst55 for the link, interesting job you have.
I'm an airplane pilot and my boss swears by corrosion-x. He uses it in all the airplanes he works on as a corrosion preventative. During the 100 hour inspections on my work plane, he will spray the stuff into the empanage, wing spars, etc. The smell is a little overpowering for the first few flights, especially when it's hot out.

[oldred]

Fellas Corrosion-X is nothing but Mineral oil and solvents, the solvents evaporate (some quickly and some take a much longer time) but in the end what is left is Mineral oil. The stuff works pretty good at dissolving corrosion from Copper, Aluminum or even brass but spray some on rusty iron and you can wait until the cows come home and the rust will not disappear! As far as a preventive it works and works well but so does motor oil, the motor oil is a lot messier however. Just like motor oil if the Corrosion-X is removed later the rust will become active again.

[gcollins]

Hi All,
First off I only read about half the post's, so if someone has already posted it, I am sorry!
Here is what I use, and let me say right off, I know Jack $$$$ ! I get a box of baking soda (I keep on hand all the time) I use any kind of clear glass 1/2-1 pint size jar ect. Fill the jar 2/3 full of distilled water and start adding the baking soda until you get a light milky color. ( This is your kill solution) you need to be care full with the next solution Cider Vinegar, Get 3 cleaning rods out, on one of them put a barrel bush on (I use a cordless drill on the handle end that has the brush on it) on another put the biggest swab that you can force down the barrel, and on the last put on the right size swab.
Here we go, put some of the cider vinegar into another size container like you have your kill in!
I take my rod that will go down the barrel with a lite resistance and dip it in the vinegar and swab the barrel hoping you are getting the inside soaked good and none on the outside, after about 5 mins. Next I take the rod that has a brush on one end and a electric drill on the other. Start working up and down the barrel, Then using the kill swab that you have soaked will the baking soda milk, and kill the vinegar solution, and do a clean up GOOD CEAN UP and then inspect it.
With out having the problem in front of me, all I can say is, maybe you have something around that you can use as a test item, and play with it! Don't do this unless you have tried it on a old junk barrel, or a small pipe that has rust and pitting in it.
What works for some, might not for others!
G

[oldred]

Yes that will work and the kill solution will neutralize any acids left on the surface, as the old saw goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat" (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean???) however a true rust remover solution based on the Phosphoric acid will not only work faster it does not need the follow up neutralizer and it leaves that rust deterring coating that the Vinegar (which contains Acetic acid) does not. That is not to say that your method does not work and I'm sure it does just as Coca-Cola has been used in years past to remove light rust from chrome car bumpers, it's the Phosphoric acid in the cola that does the trick and the Acetic acid in the Vinegar.

[oldred]

Since the baking soda solution was mentioned (good suggestion BTW) I am going to get slightly off topic here to comment on another common firearm problem relating to rust and that's cold blue solutions. I think most who have used these solutions have been plagued with the tendency to quickly rust unless the solution is washed off after bluing, if just wiped and oiled rust is almost sure to follow in short order, and even when rust does not occur the color changes in a couple of days if not in just a few hours! Years ago I had this problem when I attempted to blue a barrel and lock on a ML so I reasoned that the rusting must be caused by left over acids and a base solution such as baking soda might solve the problem, it did just that and I was also pleasantly surprised to find the color holds MUCH better if this is done within minutes of using these cold blue concoctions. I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't make this suggestion in their product use instructions since it makes a noticeable difference in how well this stuff works but most of all it eliminates the follow up rusting that often occurs if the gun parts are just treated with the bluing and then simply oiled as most instructions suggest.

[waksupi]

Since the baking soda solution was mentioned (good suggestion BTW) I am going to get slightly off topic here to comment on another common firearm problem relating to rust and that's cold blue solutions. I think most who have used these solutions have been plagued with the tendency to quickly rust unless the solution is washed off after bluing, if just wiped and oiled rust is almost sure to follow in short order, and even when rust does not occur the color changes in a couple of days if not in just a few hours! Years ago I had this problem when I attempted to blue a barrel and lock on a ML so I reasoned that the rusting must be caused by left over acids and a base solution such as baking soda might solve the problem, it did just that and I was also pleasantly surprised to find the color holds MUCH better if this is done within minutes of using these cold blue concoctions. I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't make this suggestion in their product use instructions since it makes a noticeable difference in how well this stuff works but most of all it eliminates the follow up rusting that often occurs if the gun parts are just treated with the bluing and then simply oiled as most instructions suggest.

I've used cold blues, and can't think of any that didn't specify to wash with clean water after application.
One of my favorite uses is for French Grey color. I apply the cold blue, then buff it back with 0000 steel wool.

[oldred]

I've used cold blues, and can't think of any that didn't specify to wash with clean water after application.
One of my favorite uses is for French Grey color. I apply the cold blue, then buff it back with 0000 steel wool.


Yes they all do, or at least the one's I've seen say to wash with water but I am talking about washing with a water/baking soda solution. My theory, and it's just that but it sure seems to work, is that just washing with water does not go far enough and the soda neutralizes any acids they may have etched into the surface. Plus it seems to "fix" the color at whatever it is at the time of application, the color holdout seemed to me to be much better after the soda treatment but I have no explanation of why this would be so if in fact it is. In any case I had a lot better long term results when the cold blue was rinsed with the soda solution as opposed to just plain or soapy water.

[gcollins]

One quick trick, if you Cowboy Action Shoot, and want that new pistol to look old, take it apart and put all your springs in another place (you might want to leave the spring that holds back the case ejector) You will need a tray deep enough that the cylinder is covered and fill with cider vinegar. Keep an eye open and check your parts to make sure you don't over do it!! Keep your baking soda bath close, and always give those parts a good scrubbing with Hot Soapy water!
G
G

[uscra112]

Brownells and midway sell a rust removal system that consists of a battery pack, some wire, and a rod and some "special solution" for 135.00 but I'd rather just use the stuff sitting around my house instead. Andy

Good Lord ! $135.00 for something you can do for under ten bucks at home ? I'm thinking they must have been reading that quote from P.T.Barnum!

BTW washing soda works much better.

[gcollins]

122, You are right! I am sure that every one has or knows where a (old cell phone charger or any transformer that you can plug in the wall socket, that doesn't put out any more than 9 volts). Peel the 2 wires apart, and strip them
back around 1 inch, then attach a alligator clip to each one. You will need to come up with a non conductive tub or container that will hold water and is deep enough to put your part in. I fill my container as deep as it needs to be plus some! I always put in a couple table spoons full of salt in the water and stir until it is all mix in. I attach
a 6 penny nail to one of the clips and place it in the salt water where
it won't touch the part, then I attach the other clip on the part (on a place that will be hard to see where it was clipped) put the part in the water, Making sure the part cannot touch the nail!! Plug it in and watch it start fessing! You will need to move the part around in the tub of water, so you can get a even electrolytes job done. Then put it in a soda water bath, and then hot soapy water rinse and dry!
G

[andremajic]

Good Lord ! $135.00 for something you can do for under ten bucks at home ? I'm thinking they must have been reading that quote from P.T.Barnum!

BTW washing soda works much better.

I totally agree.

However, if you put baking soda in the oven at 350 degrees for about 20 minutes it removes most of the hydrogen and becomes washing soda.

Then again, if you add washing soda back to water, it hydrates it again.

Or you could buy a 25 lb bag of washing soda at pool supply stores named "ph up" or something to that effect.

[andremajic]

122, You are right! I am sure that every one has or knows where a (old cell phone charger or any transformer that you can plug in the wall socket, that doesn't put out any more than 9 volts). Peel the 2 wires apart, and strip them
back around 1 inch, then attach a alligator clip to each one. You will need to come up with a non conductive tub or container that will hold water and is deep enough to put your part in. I fill my container as deep as it needs to be plus some! I always put in a couple table spoons full of salt in the water and stir until it is all mix in. I attach
a 6 penny nail to one of the clips and place it in the salt water where
it won't touch the part, then I attach the other clip on the part (on a place that will be hard to see where it was clipped) put the part in the water, Making sure the part cannot touch the nail!! Plug it in and watch it start fessing! You will need to move the part around in the tub of water, so you can get a even electrolytes job done. Then put it in a soda water bath, and then hot soapy water rinse and dry!
G

I wouldn't use salt as it is VERY aggressive. Museums use the washing soda as electrolitic solution. It's slower, but it is safer to use.

[andremajic]

I think I'll just stick to the phosphoric acid, rather than mixing a witches brew of stuff that will probably get me in trouble if I get caught. ;)



Their web page comes up for me, but it's blank.

How is tannic acid and distilled water a witches brew? Pretty simple recipe.

How is washing soda and distilled water a witches brew? These are both 2 ingredient recipes, and very mild to steel.

Phosphoric acid etches both good and rusted metal, that's why it's an ingredient in metal preparation solutions, because it leaves the surface rough and pitted which allows primer to stick better.

I can see the barrel makers reading this thread and rubbing their hands in glee....[smilie=b:

I'll keep the phosphoric acid for the OUTSIDE of my firearms when parkerizing. Not in the barrel.

[oldred]

There is no way scrubbing a rifle bore with something as benign as Phosphoric acid is going to harm anything unless the solution is just applied heavily and left for an inappropriately long time, proper use (just common sense use like most other products) is as safe as anything you can use. After all this stuff is so mild you don't even need gloves to handle it and in fact it's the same acid found in lower concentrations in colas and other soft drinks, the only way anything is going to be damaged would be to soak the surface and leave it unattended for an obviously unreasonable amount of time!


Again Phosphoric acid is not for regular cleaning and it WILL destroy bluing but if rusting has already started bluing may not matter, certainly not inside a bore and other than damage to a blued finish I can't think of a thing this stuff will hurt on a firearm.

[andremajic]

There is no way scrubbing a rifle bore with something as benign as Phosphoric acid is going to harm anything unless the solution is just applied heavily and left for an inappropriately long time, proper use (just common sense use like most other products) is as safe as anything you can use. After all this stuff is so mild you don't even need gloves to handle it and in fact it's the same acid found in lower concentrations in colas and other soft drinks, the only way anything is going to be damaged would be to soak the surface and leave it unattended for an obviously unreasonable amount of time! Again Phosphoric acid is not for regular cleaning and it WILL destroy bluing but if rusting has already started bluing may not matter, certainly not inside a bore and other than damage to a blued finish I can't think of a thing this stuff will hurt on a firearm.

Yes, I understand that if you leave it in the bore a short time, the damage won't be much, but if you leave it in long enough to dissolve the rust, it will do an equal amount of etching to the good steel.

The main body of the conversation on this subject is referring to what to do if you have rust pitting in a barrel, not regular cleaning. Pits cause leading and jacket fouling. Even minor amounts of roughness will lend to fouling. That's why barrel makers lap the imperfections out of the bores.

If you want to be scientific about it, get a piece of steel and polish it down until you have a mirror surface, then brush phosphoric acid one side of it. Even after a short time, you will notice roughness.

Just my .02
Andy

[oldred]

Yes, I understand that if you leave it in the bore a short time, the damage won't be much, but if you leave it in long enough to dissolve the rust, it will do an equal amount of etching to the good steel.

This statement is nonsense, if you leave it long enough to remove the rust you just remove the rust and nothing more, any "etching" at this point is only microns deep, we are talking about PHOSPHORIC acid here not Hydrochloric or Sulfuric acids!


The main body of the conversation on this subject is referring to what to do if you have rust pitting in a barrel, not regular cleaning. Pits cause leading and jacket fouling. Even minor amounts of roughness will lend to fouling. That's why barrel makers lap the imperfections out of the bores.

I think I said more than once this was not for regular cleaning and the original topic is HOW TO KILL RUST which is exactly what I have been talking about from the beginning and which Phosphoric acid does an excellent job of. As far as the normal Phosphoric acid leaving roughness that simply is not a problem, rust itself by it's very nature and effect on the metal, is of course going to leave some roughness but this is metal deterioration due to oxidizing (the very reason for the treatment in the first place!) not the Phosphoric acid. Simple Phosphoric acid properly applied to a clean non-rusted surface will do little more than dull it.


If you want to be scientific about it, get a piece of steel and polish it down until you have a mirror surface, then brush phosphoric acid one side of it. Even after a short time, you will notice roughness.

No after a short time you will notice dullness not roughness, BIG difference there!

A LIGHT polishing with a buffing wheel will easily restore the polish which it would not do to a deeply etched or rough surface, I do this regularly when removing bluing and the "etching" you refer to is nothing more than dulling! I have spent over forty years using this stuff to clean delicate antiques and it's about as easy on the surface as anything available for rust removal. A part of this dulled surface that you seem to think is etching is actually nothing more than the grey Phosphate coating left after the treatment. Believe what you like but Phosphoric acid solutions have been among the most popular "go-to" chemicals for nondamaging rust removal for over a hundred years and they still work just as well today.