extending COWW

[cstrickland]

Ok I tried to look for this but my search might have needed some help. I have a small amount of COWW that I would like to extend , but I still want to be able to heat treat. How much pure lead can I add to the COWW and still be able to heat treat ?? I unfortunately do not have access to a PMI to determine the current trace% of Arsenic, so that I can calculate. I would like to go at least 50/50 but as stated I do not know haw this would affect the abilty to heat treat.


thanks
charlie

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

What will you be using the alloy for?

[cstrickland]

What will you be using the alloy for?

casting boolits !

[slim1836]

casting boolits !Rifle, pistol, shotgun slugs, hunting, target, etc...?

[xacex]

I think what Nocturnal Stumblebutt was trying to get at was what type of firearm, rifle or pistol, and Hi pressure loads or low pressure loads. If you have acess to other lead such as roofing lead, or SOWW you will mix only a small portion of COWW for low pressure calibers such as 45 ACP, but your 308 is going to require at least 50/50 with a gas check and water dropped if you intend on going over 1800fps. Going over 2000fps requires more hardness because of the pressure. I use 50/50 in 9mm, but also P/C so the metal is somewhat annealed. The hollow-points explode on impact and the base goes through 4 jugs of water.

[cstrickland]

Rifle, pistol, shotgun slugs, hunting, target, etc...?

sorry not trying to sound ike an *** as I know you are trying to help, but it is irrelevent to my question . I will be using it for all of the above possible. I just want to know if someone knows how much I can reduce it with pure lead before it effects heat treating

[cstrickland]

I think what Nocturnal Stumblebutt was trying to get at was what type of firearm, rifle or pistol, and Hi pressure loads or low pressure loads. If you have acess to other lead such as roofing lead, or SOWW you will mix only a small portion of COWW for low pressure calibers such as 45 ACP, but your 308 is going to require at least 50/50 with a gas check and water dropped if you intend on going over 1800fps. Going over 2000fps requires more hardness because of the pressure. I use 50/50 in 9mm, but also P/C so the metal is somewhat annealed. The hollow-points explode on impact and the base goes through 4 jugs of water.

yeah I know and I am not trying to be a smart *** and they are trying to help but it is irrelivent to my question . as stated I just need to know how much you can cut it with pure lead before it affects heat treating.

[shadowcaster]

I am not able to give you exact numbers on how much to cut your COWW, but as long as you have some antimony present hardening will occur to some degree. I personally would start with a small test batch 50/50 mix, and see how it works. Thin the next batch down further and so on.

Here are some statements taken from: http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

This is an excellent read and may help you find your answer.

) Antimony is the key to heat treating with the optimum being 4%.

) The lower the antimony content the slower age hardening from heat treating will occur.

) Arsenic is a catalyst to a greatly improved strength/time curve in heat treating & quenching lead/antimony alloys.

) The composition of wheel weights is nearly ideal for responding to heat treatment, (lead/antimony/arsenic).

Shad

[cstrickland]

I am not able to give you exact numbers on how much to cut your COWW, but as long as you have some antimony present hardening will occur to some degree. I personally would start with a small test batch 50/50 mix, and see how it works. Thin the next batch down further and so on.

Here are some statements taken from: http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

This is an excellent read and may help you find your answer.

) Antimony is the key to heat treating with the optimum being 4%.

) The lower the antimony content the slower age hardening from heat treating will occur.

) Arsenic is a catalyst to a greatly improved strength/time curve in heat treating & quenching lead/antimony alloys.

) The composition of wheel weights is nearly ideal for responding to heat treatment, (lead/antimony/arsenic).

Shad

Shad thanks for the feedback. I have read throgh a lot on LASC.us but still had the same question . I believe my answer will depend on the amount of trace arsenic, and how much the blend lowers that, but I currently have no way to tell when I have went to far, except as you say to do several small batches and test. I just figured someone here would have some experiences that could pass allong.

thanks again

[Gtek]

Mr. cstrickland, may I refer you to a little saying about Honey and Vinegar. There are some great guy's on here and with your low post count they/I do not know your level of question. All above were questioning you to find your caliber and it has appeared small. The vast majority of us do not have access to a spectrum analysis device. But if you were to do some more research you will find that the antimony content is a variable in COWW varying between manufacture year, company, etc. I believe these kind gentleman spending their time to respond was attempt to educate you in what you may not really need to be concerned about. Your question is a very open ended one with many variables. Would you like to rephrase your question Sir? Gtek

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Ok I tried to look for this but my search might have needed some help. I have a small amount of COWW that I would like to extend , but I still want to be able to heat treat. How much pure lead can I add to the COWW and still be able to heat treat ?? I unfortunately do not have access to a PMI to determine the current trace% of Arsenic, so that I can calculate. I would like to go at least 50/50 but as stated I do not know haw this would affect the abilty to heat treat. thanks, charlie
Yes you can
50-50 will still heat treat just fine.
Good Luck,
Jon

[cstrickland]

Mr. cstrickland, may I refer you to a little saying about Honey and Vinegar. There are some great guy's on here and with your low post count they/I do not know your level of question. All above were questioning you to find your caliber and it has appeared small. The vast majority of us do not have access to a spectrum analysis device. But if you were to do some more research you will find that the antimony content is a variable in COWW varying between manufacture year, company, etc. I believe these kind gentleman spending their time to respond was attempt to educate you in what you may not really need to be concerned about. Your question is a very open ended one with many variables. Would you like to rephrase your question Sir? Gtek

Gtek thank you for your response and concern , but I understand sugar and vinegar and did not use vinegar, and I certainly do not feel I was nasty or disrespectful to anyone here. I even made sure I stated I understood everyone was trying to help in the replies . As far as rephrasing my question I would polity say NO I do not wish to , as my statement still stands. needing to know what I am casting really has no relevance to my question.

even though I have a low post count I understand the different factors to casting a usable bullet for my situation . now had I asked how to get to a certain hardness or what hardness or alloy I needed for a certain situation then that would be another matter.

sorry but I have stated it as politely as possible and hope you do not get offended

[cstrickland]

Yes you can
50-50 will still heat treat just fine.
Good Luck,
Jon

Jon thank you for the response as I seem to have upset some here

[Gtek]

I never have had onion skin, maybe I misread the tone. If you wish- please direct yourself to a wonderful bit of information called " FROM INGOT TO TARGET " by Mr. Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate. Really smart Mr. Fryxell is a Ph.D. chemist. Please see page 28 - Lead-antimony, and try on his explanation. Gtek

[cstrickland]

I never have had onion skin, maybe I misread the tone. If you wish- please direct yourself to a wonderful bit of information called " FROM INGOT TO TARGET " by Mr. Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate. Really smart Mr. Fryxell is a Ph.D. chemist. Please see page 28 - Lead-antimony, and try on his explanation. Gtek

Gtek thank you for the suggested reading I really do appreciate the suggestion

thanks
charlie

[500MAG]

I never have had onion skin, maybe I misread the tone. If you wish- please direct yourself to a wonderful bit of information called " FROM INGOT TO TARGET " by Mr. Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate. Really smart Mr. Fryxell is a Ph.D. chemist. Please see page 28 - Lead-antimony, and try on his explanation. Gtek
Here is a great reference to Dr. Fryxells work:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[slim1836]

sorry not trying to sound ike an *** as I know you are trying to help, but it is irrelevent to my question . I will be using it for all of the above possible. I just want to know if someone knows how much I can reduce it with pure lead before it effects heat treating
Sorry, I misread the post, definitely not trying to instigate anything. My apologies if it came across as such.

Slim

[cstrickland]

Sorry, I misread the post, definitely not trying to instigate anything. My apologies if it came across as such.

Slim

Slim absolutely no apologies necessary my friend. As I stated I know everyone is just trying to help and I appreciate the community. Please accept my apologies if I came off harsh it was not my intentions. As I stated I was not trying to be an butt.

[cstrickland]

Here is a great reference to Dr. Fryxells work:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

500 thanks for the link . yep that is where I was but just have not made it through the site yet. Lots of good info over there.

[runfiverun]

Charlie.
I use a mix of 25% soft lead to my ww's as that is the approximate amount of stick on ww's I ended up with back when I was scrounging ww's.
it works well for me either air cooled or water dropped.
going 50-50 and heat treating then waiting a month or more should yield a bhn in the 15-16 area.
some of my boolits seem to respond to the heat treating better than others, and I end up adding more hard alloy to those particular molds that don't respond to get the same bhn.

[el34]

Charlie, does it matter to you what hardness increase you'll get with heat treating? A teaspoon of salt in Lake Michigan will make it saltier but not by much.

[cstrickland]

Charlie, does it matter to you what hardness increase you'll get with heat treating? A teaspoon of salt in Lake Michigan will make it saltier but not by much.

Maybe. I would not want to cut it so much that I can not heat treat to say 21 ish bhn. I will probably start at 50/50 and do say a 1/4 lb batch and see where it is at after a week

[Defcon-One]

Not enough information and personally, I did smell a bit of Vinegar, but I'm glad that is over!

The only answer that will be right is, the more you cut the Antimony, the less affective the heat treating will be. You've gotta find that line for your application/s. In other words, 50% pure to COWW will get you a good solid hardness for your pistol and large caliber rifles going slow, 25% pure to COWW will be better for the hotter loads. For Magnum loads or higher velocity rifle your gonna want pure COWW or harder. (All heat treated of course.)

There is also the issue of water dropping from the mold or oven treating. The oven treating is more controllable and might get you a bit more hardness, but it is a lot more work and you'll need to experiment to find the ideal temp.

The better your answers, the better their answers will be. Also, nothing is irrelevant. If they asked you, it was relevant whether you thought so or not!

DC-1