125 gr. jhp hornady expansion with photo

[capt.hollis]

81846though this doesn't pertain to casting I do have a question. These are the hollow points I've just loaded, and not getting the expansion. It took 6 pieces of 3/4" rubber to catch these bullets. Not a good self defense round if you ask me . Just wondering what you all think ?
Thanks guys

[oldgeezershooter]

Those are designed to expand in tissue.
I shot some out of my .40 into a laminated beam and they went through five inches of doug-fir without expanding, the hollow points were filled with wood, same thing can happen with heavy layers of clothing.
But, if it hits a person in a normal situation it should expand.(Actually those aren't bad.)

[capt.hollis]

Not bad huh oldgeezer. Very good then, I was just planning on a little more flare, but what do ya do? I could hop the load up more to the high end . Im using a mid range data of 5.3 gr. of power pistol. I believe max is 6.0 gr

[mroliver77]

Best to use loose packed very wet newspaper to simulate flesh. It is a pain but is the closest to meat, cheap doityourself ballistic test media.

[capt.hollis]

Best to use loose packed very wet newspaper to simulate flesh. It is a pain but is the closest to meat, cheap doityourself ballistic test media.
Got ya there mroliver! Thank You

[MtGun44]

In wet pack, expect the expansion to match ballistic gelatin, but penetration will
be almost exactly half.

Bill

[mongoosesnipe]

i just use a garbage can filled with water for my balistic tests shooting down into the water from above, i carry gold dots, Winchester ranger in my autos and 158 lswchp in my snubbie

[historicfirearms]

i just use a garbage can filled with water for my balistic tests shooting down into the water from above, i carry gold dots, Winchester ranger in my autos and 158 lswchp in my snubbie

I tried that last year with a 55 gal drum. Firing down from my deck, about five feet above the barrel, and with an old blanket draped across the top of the water, the splash created from the 180 grain .309 dia boolit at 1700 fps was very refreshing. The best part was that I didn't have to bother to do anything with the water in the drum. It kindly found its way out of the new 40 cal hole at the bottom of the barrel. The boolit was eventually found under 12 inches of well hydrated soil.

[fryboy]

lolz @ "The best part was that I didn't have to bother to do anything with the water in the drum." i think i've been there before lolz

one can also line up milk ( or other jugs ) full of water ( always a hoot to watch ! especially if you add different colors of food die to said jugs ! )
for going thru rubber those actually look pretty good , especially the one by your pinkie !

[fouronesix]

The best (or most available anyway) ballistic media I've found is 100% water saturated phone books tied into 4-6" bundles then stacked in a simple OSB or plywood trough. The thing about ANY ballistic media is it will never duplicate the real thing- it will always be "apples to oranges". The best that can be done is comparative testing using exactly the same media and parameters for each test- then it will be "apples to apples". The down side to the wet paper thing is each time a round is fired, a new "stack" has to be used otherwise the previous shot damage will compromise the results of the following shot (s). That generates a lot of wet paper to dispose of.

Most conventional bullets- big or small, cast or jacketed, fast or slow can usually be stopped in the wet phone book paper media somewhere between about 5" and 24" of penetration. I've tested bullets/loads that have penetrated 40-50" of big game using the wet paper set up. With the comparative test into the wet paper at the same impact velocity yielding 12-16" penetration. One thing that must be done to make the comparative test somewhat valid is to duplicate the impact velocity in the comparisons. Ex: if the impact velocity in the game animal is 2100 fps then adjust the load so the impact velocity in the ballistic media is 2100 fps.

[Zymurgy50]

Around here the problem with using old phone books if finding enough to make a 3' stack. County wide phone books here are only 1/4" thick...

[runfiverun]

i was just thinking the same thing.
we use the same phone book as the next county over, and the one next to that.
it makes almost 1/2" white and yellow combined, and is only about 8"x 6".
i use newspapers.

i would rather my 9m bullets looked like the pics anyway, i'll take more penetration over more expansion in the smaller calibers especially.

[fouronesix]

We just finished the annual "new" phone book distribution here so there are, as in most communities large and small, excesses of old phone books available on a seasonal basis. Plus the phonebook companies always "overprint", so there are even excesses of new phone books seasonally. Not hard to find this time of year. Just have to plan ahead and gather them up when available.

And really, the type of ballistic media used doesn't matter as much as using the same media for each test. Not very valid if one time damp, loosely packed newspaper is used, then the next time dry phone books, then the next time 100% saturated phone books, etc. If simply looking for an expanded bullet might as well shoot into a dirt bank and recover the bullet.

[snuffy]

Bullet test media has come and gone for many years. The standard ballistic gelatin is expensive, has to be temperature controlled, and is a one-time-use media. (Can't be re-used). It also only shows expansion of the bullet, and penetration, no permanent wound cavity.

Gorge C. Nonte used something called dux-seal to test handgun bullets back in the 70's. It was a "putty" used to seal where a power wire or plumbing entered a building. He got some splendid expansion of the then new controlled expansion hollow point bullets.

Corbin offers a substance called sim-test. It's a vegetable based, water soluable, and re-useable.

http://www.corbins.com/sim-test.htm#top

It is said to nearly duplicate animal muscle tissue in density, and should give an idea of wound cavity dimensions.

Another test media that I have is no longer available. It's the bullet test tube.
http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

The media is a soft wax type material that again trys to simulate muscle tissue. It too is re-useable, melted after use, re-cast in a new paper tube. It was available for about 10 years, but the guys that invented it went out of business , haven't answered emails or their phone. They sold all existing stock to Brownells, now Brownells is sold out. They do however keep their web page active, tells me thay may start up again?

Anyway the test I have performed have been a real education;

81858

45 acp 200 HP (mihec) round HP.

81859

Same as above except a penta point.

81860

The two test above one another. You can see the round HP seems to have a bigger wound cavity.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/expansion%20test%20007.jpg

That's a speer "deep curl" 165 30 cal fired from a Springfield '06 @ 25 yards. Should have taken a wider angle to show the beginning of the wound cavity, which was larger than the deeper penetration. The deep curl is an outgrowth of the Federal fusion bullet, it too is a plated bullet with total bonding.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/expansion%20test%20014.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/bullets/websize/expansion%20test%20015.jpg

None of the different medias will give results like an actual animal or human target. because no two animals of humans will be the same. You just can't simulate the widely varied consistencies of actual bodies. Bones, hide, fabric, all vary form one body to another.

You CAN control what media you use, and how consistent it is. So, apples to apples in the same media is possible.

[fouronesix]

Here's the ballistic trap I use that seems to work. It is lo-tech and inexpensive. I bundle the phone books with nylon string (swelling with water will break cotton). Bundling allows easier handling and tracking/measuring of bullet path after the shot. I soak the bundles for a few hours in deep tub. I put a 5/8" thick piece of scrap OSB at approx. 4" behind the entry face to simulate bone. I make sure the bullet path (literally the bore line when shot at about 10 yards) is along the axis of the media. I duplicate this set up with each test. Then only one variable is changed at a time so the comparisons are valid. Included results of the last test I did of a 165 gr .308 Swift A Frame out of an '06. Loaded for media impact velocity of about 2400 fps.

[mongoosesnipe]

I tried that last year with a 55 gal drum. Firing down from my deck, about five feet above the barrel, and with an old blanket draped across the top of the water, the splash created from the 180 grain .309 dia boolit at 1700 fps was very refreshing. The best part was that I didn't have to bother to do anything with the water in the drum. It kindly found its way out of the new 40 cal hole at the bottom of the barrel. The boolit was eventually found under 12 inches of well hydrated soil.

Yeah it only realy works with defensive hollow points bullets that expand on contact and are only designed to penitrate about 12 inches but the are beautifully preserved that being said it doesn take much to exit the bottom I had 158 gr 38 semi wadcutters exit th bottom but every comercial defensive hallow point I have tested stops

[fouronesix]

Here's some tests using the same saturated phone book/OSB media in the same ballistic trap. Along with a comparison between a field recovered bullet and a media tested bullet.

I was pleasantly surprised by the performance of the 185 gr Lapua Mega out of the '06 as I haven't seen much feedback about this bullet. The 710 gr .69 minié out of an original M61 Plymouth rifle at no more than 750 fps impact velocity was also surprising.

And, an example of a .338 Rem Ultra Bonded comparing an actual field recovery with one that was tested in the trap. Some conclusions can be drawn and predictions made by media testing but the conclusions have to be broad and general. BTW, the Rem Ultra Bonded is one of the most accurate of the premium hunting bullets I have experience with. The 225 gr .338 UBs were shot out of a 338-06.

IMO, certain bullets driven fast out of mag rifles with higher impact velocities may not perform well- examples that have been tested using the above media indicate bullets like the Berger "so called" Hunting Bullet and the Nosler Ballistic Tip may come apart and/or behave poorly and/or penetrate poorly. This is also backed up with field experience and reports that agree with the media testing.

[Blammer]

That's a 125gr bullet you say?

The photo makes them look larger like 158gr or so.

[firefly1957]

Try Sierra JHC bullets i had better luck with them .

As far as testing i also will give water a nod i use gallon water jugs filling one and shooting it laying on its side and behind it i have DRY phone books to catch the bullet . Most defensive loads stay in the water and expand well a few go into the book i watch for the violence of the jug shattering for and idea of how well the energy is transferred . I 30-30 pistol load with a soft powder coated bullet at about 1300 feet per second will shatter the jug then go though 2" of dry book and be expanded to about .4 of an inch. This method is cheap duplicate-able and i can add jugs form more powerful loads.

[oldgeezershooter]

81927If you want a good jacketed self defense bullet, I swear by the Barnes XPB.

[KCSO]

Any bullet you carry for self defense needs to be tested in varying mediums. Some bulles will expand perfectly cay or wet pack and fail miserably if they have to go through cloth or leather first. Rubber is not a good test media unless you are shooting the Michlen Man. Of all the bullets we have tested the overall best in ALL media were the FMJ expanding slugs and they are no longer availabel.

[lksmith]

Haven't used the 9mm 125XTP but the 45 cal 230XTP and the 44cal and 45cal 240XTP have always expanded to nearly double in my tests and hunting from 700-1800fps

[oldgeezershooter]

Amazing what some of the newer bullets will do. Remember when they banned the "Black Talon" bullets?

[fishhawk]

Here is a simple cheap repeatable jell http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html

[firefly1957]

Something not mentioned i have found the 9mm jacketed bullet shoot very well in the 38 Special you can load the 380 bullets and use Lee factory crimp die to keep them in place .

[lksmith]

I use the same bullets for 380, 9mm, 38/357

[DCM]

As others have said soaked newspaper is good ballistic material for the average guy. Penetration will be less than "ballistic gelatin" but your expansion will be close.
I think there are a bunch of gelatin tests posted on brassfetcher.com.
Like Fishawks link too.
IMO penetration is key in any caliber, gotta get to something important to be effective, I get cuts and bruises at work regularly that very rarely slow me down, Exit wounds on game make for much quicker/cleaner kills IME.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

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