Fireproofing and reinforcing a cheap gun safe, thoughts?

[destrux]

I've been going over my options for better securing my guns against fire and theft on a limited budget. Right now I have them cable locked to a floor anchor in a cheap harbor freight "executive" safe, which is really just a basic sheet metal gun safe.

I was always happy with that setup, till my dad lost his backup keys and let the batteries die in his identical safe. It took me about 15 minutes with a hammer, chisel, and sawzall to cut a hole in the side of the safe big enough to take the contents out.

I don't have $1000 to spend on a basic 20 gun fire safe though, and my house has narrow doors which really limits my options.

I was thinking how I could reinforce my existing safe and I think since it's already in the basement (which is climate controlled and water tight) the best way to shore up the sides, top and back is going to be to build around it with cinderblocks and pour 5000psi concrete into the voids, along with some rebar. I will probably cover the safe with fire proof drywall under the concrete to give it some insulation from heat in a fire.

I'm not really sure the door needs reinforcement, it seems pretty solid, but it's not fire proof. I'm planning to make an outer fireproof door countersunk into the concrete outer "bunker" that will be a separate from the main safe door and put two or three layers of fire check drywall in outer door in a steel frame between inner and outer layers of 20 gauge sheet metal. That should give about a 45 minute fire rating, I hope. I was going to seal that outer door with some fireplace seal rope I have laying around.

I think I can do the whole project for less than $200, easily... maybe much less than that.

Anyone have any thoughts on how this might work, not work, or anything to add?

[halfslow]

Put the fireproof box or wall on the outside of the blocks to protect them from the fire.
I would use concrete blocks, not cinder blocks.

A Hardi board wall is rated for 2 hours:
http://www.jameshardiecommercial.com/pdf/jh-wa-120-02-2-hour-steel-stud.pdf

You will have to think about the fire door in front of the safe, but I think this is an inexpensive solution you have come up with.

[merlin101]

If your going thru all the work of blocks/concrete ect. Why even use the safe you have? I'd be thinking of going bigger, like a gun ROOM!!
BTW I have a pretty decent gun safe I picked up a few years ago at the local tractor supply, they are stocking up on them right now and mark them down for black Friday. $600 can get you a nice safe.

[destrux]

I've been keeping an eye out for a good deal on a safe, even a used one. I just haven't had any luck. I never thought of Tractor Supply though.

I'd love a gun room, but it would cost a lot more to do a whole room. Just not in the budget.

[destrux]

That hardi board stuff looks pretty good. I think I saw a big pile of that at the local surplus builders store too.

[mongoosesnipe]

most of the fireproofing in gun safes is gypsum aka drywall

[Cane_man]

gypsum drywall

[geargnasher]

I bought one of the Tractor Supply "safes", they are very poor for security or fire protection, but will deter petty burglars provided they don't bring or find much in the way of tools. IIRC the fire rating is 30 minutes.

I don't remember their handle, but a member here had a thread going a few years ago involving added fire protection for a residential security cabinet, he added drywall panels all around and stored plastic jugs of water on top which would, theoretically, melt and douse the safe with water in the event of a fire.

Gear

[OuchHot!]

Just an unrelated "by the way". Years ago, I knew a very skilled metalworker who built a very nice "burglar proof" gun cabinet in his basement. He stored his cutting torch next to it...... If you have plasma cutters, sawzalls and so on, you might make them a bit hard to find.

[destrux]

I don't have much in the way of metal cutting tools at my house, but that is good advice.

I found a fairly nice Cannon safe on sale at Walmart for $450. I'm saving the funds to buy it. It's got a 45 minute fire rating. I'll be keeping the cheap safe I have and using it to store my reloading equipment.

[r6487]

go to the sturdysafe.com website, look at how they insert the 2400degree ceramic wool and glass in between the inner and outer walls of their safes. build you block walls and insert this stuff around your safe and insert it in your spot then build the outer door with this same stuff to protect the safe door.

[imashooter2]

Plumb a fire sprinkler over the safe and you have fire protection about as good as it can be.

[sparkz]

Build a Block and cement room in basement with a "live sprinkler in it" and use a steel door (jamb poured in place) place your safe in the room bolted to floor, Put good door knobs and a hasp lock on door, can go more with an expandable gate over the door (kinds used for shops and lock that too)
Put alarm switches inside room with a motion sensor inside room,

No thing you can build a Good skilled tradesman turned thief can't get into But ya can slow them down and make a stand against a fire,

I know your thinking Hey Patrick a bit much,,,
I was robbed of a Colt 1911-A1, and Ruger SBH, and a 32 junk gun but kicker was the 2 Stens FULL AUTO with all the Clips and ammo and all wife's jewelry 300.00 and better, all loaded into her purse dumped into kitchen sink and Done & Gone!!
They took a Pipe Wrench and twisted the door knobs and Dead bolt off door and there in,,
Cook County, Illinois Police where called and a year later on my birthday Had found the Ruger,,
I have that gun now If it could talk I would listen,, So you might see how I might be a bit bitter about thieves,,

so in short, You can not build or buy a safe that will keep them from stealing your stuff,,
But make it hard as posb and hope there lazy and worried your coming home any Minuit with your carry gun
fire two shots one warning
Note; Its between you and God what shot was the warning shot....

Patrick

[LUCKYDAWG13]

just an FYI i had a house fire a few years ago i had more damage dunn
from water then from the fire one of my safes was a home made wood cabinet
that my Dad made along time ago the outside of it was burnt the guns weren't
hurt by the fire but the water damage was real bad you see the local police department
held on to my guns for a few days (our house was unlivable ) they rusted Bad in just a few days i had a lot going on that week like finding a place for me and my family to live
so think of water damage too

[Kalahe]

I'm sorry guys that I bump the dead old topic, just have a few interesting observations from personal experience, perhaps someone will need this information in the future.
Not an expert, but FWIW:

1)If you can manhandle a safe into the house with a couple of guys and a hand truck, a couple of burglars with a hand truck can leave with it. You want to bolt it to something.

2)I have occasionally heard of apparently targeted burglaries where the thieves came expecting to move a safe. Having it in a discreet place where every plumber, electrician, or carpet cleaner won't see it is probably nice, and don't blab a lot about it. In fact, the worst case scenario if word gets around that you have a gonzo safe is that people come by while you're home, planning to convince you to open it.

3)A safe that is truly burglar and fire resistant is going to need to be installed on a concrete slab - we're talking a few thousand pounds (and a few thousand dollars). One exception is floor safes installed into the slab - since the surrounding concrete protects everything but the door, they are much cheaper, if you DIY the install. But no home safe offers the security of a safe deposit box.

4)If you want to have a large safe up a flight of narrow stairs or whatever, people make knockdown safes. 'Zanotti Armor' is one vendor. The scuttlebutt is that they are just as secure as similar one-piece safes (but more expensive; it's a niche market. Do research floor loadings for the bigger ones.

I have a Cannon "12/24" firearm wall safes (https://secretstorages.com/best-wall-safes/) It is loaded with documents and other valuables.
It is large and heavy enough (especially loaded) that it is not going anywhere quickly. It comes with a bunch of shelves that are adjustable making it very versatile for storing a variety of things.
My wife and I moved it ourselves. It was very heavy, but we took our time and got it in place with a hand truck, I am very skilled and experienced with a hand truck and moving large items on them from working in a warehouse many years ago. My safe is not hidden, it stands in the corner of my bedroom.
A safe the size of mine if left unbolted from the frame/floor could be moved out with a determined thief, but not within the typical response time of local law enforcement to alarm calls.

[xs11jack]

I think you should be careful about counting on a sprinkler system over the safe. If the building about the safe collapses on to the safe it could damage the sprinkler.
Ole Jack

[RogerDat]

If a safe is not bolted down, and that means in anchors to a concrete floor or into braces under the rafters it can be opened in minutes. YouTube has several videos of it being done. Safe on back means door seam is facing up. Two pry bars, one smaller like 4 foot, one longer. Insert one, insert the other, put full weight on the longer one. Move smaller one down. Thief can walk around the safe spreading that seam until the bolts are free. Takes a few minutes but less than 5 in many cases.

Bolted down it can't be tipped, thus the long sides can only be pried by strength alone. Which brings us to second point. Wrap it in a corner, in a closet, in a nook. Someplace where there is no "swing room" to move the long end of a pry bar without hitting a wall. You can be strong as an ox but if the seam you want to pry is 2 inches from the wall then you can only move the lever of your pry bar 2 inches.

Moisture absorbing packs, fire proof safes will tend to sweat. Speaking of which those $99 or $109 safes at big box stores are plastic filled with insulation. Videos online of them being cut in half with a circular saw and they are noted for sweating so bad that all your papers become moldy and funky.

Some sort of noisy or flashing light alarm is good, given time any safe can be opened and most sub $1000 ones will not take all that long for an experienced thief. Even an idiot using your 4 inch grinder and cut off wheels will get the job done if you are gone all weekend. None of them will stick around if there is a rotating red light flashing outside and a siren squealing away inside.

Black powder flammable/explosive stickers may give them reason to mull the whole idea over for awhile. Certainly if the cutter throws sparks or is a torch. And just for fun put the wrong combination on a brochure for the safe or index card or tag. Something that causes a thief to spend valuable time trying the wrong combo a few times thinking you are one of those idiots that puts password next to computer on a post-it note.

Be prepared, a badly damaged safe will have to be broken into and may well be ruined in the process. That is a cost you can hopefully pass on as part of an insurance claim.

Whom ever said keep it out of site is 100% correct. Many thieves will head to places such as the master bed room, the freezer (yes people hide jewelry in them), or where ever there are high value electronics such as TV's or computers. Some thieves are looking for quick and portable, others show up with a truck to clean you out. You have at least a good chance that the first type won't even find the safe if it is hidden.

Most secure cheap safe. Gang tool boxes from big box home improvement store properly secured. They are designed to be left at construction sites full of expensive tools for the crew and very hard to break into. Not fire proof but darn hard to get into and reasonably priced.

Speaking of tools, secure the emergency release on your electric garage door opener. People reach through and snag the lever pull rope is attached to with a bent coat hanger over the top of the door and they can have your garage door open in a minute or less. Easy to slip a cable tie around the release so it can't be pulled without cutting the tie. Which you can do if your opener motor ever dies and you have to open door manually until it gets fixed. In which case you will be using the lock which isn't used if your electric opener is being used.

[MaryB]

I have a small pint reservoir in my safe rigged to a small water pump that feeds a spray nozzle. Filled with purple dye and skunk pee. If I am going to be gone for the day I arm it. If they get in they won't be worried about getting guns when they are foaming at the mouth from a face full of it! I place a warning magnet on the door as a reminder that says alarm is set.

[Bmi48219]

Have to ask, where / how does one get skunk pee?

[DCM]

Cabelas or such.

[Petrol & Powder]

RogerDat hit most of the points but I'll concur and add a bit:

The main safe should ALWAYS be bolted down to the floor and if possible, secured to the walls also. If the thieves can get the safe on its back, it's over in minutes. If the thieves can remove the safe and take it to another location, it's over in minutes.

If possible, limit access to the safe on all sides so that there is just enough room for the safe door to open but not enough room to allow tools to access anything other than the door.

Hide the **** thing ! They can't steal what they can't find !

Anytime a safe is on a concrete floor it should be on a small pedestal. Nothing fancy needed here; two layers of 2 by whatever lumber (3" thickness total). The reasons for a small 3" pedestal are to reduce condensation from the safe sitting directly on a cold, damp concrete slab and protection from minor flooding. Trust me on this; the $20 worth of scrap lumber and hardware to build a short 3" pedestal will save you thousands of dollars later.

A safe that is on a wooden floor should be bolted to the floor joists and not just the floor & subfloor. In a previous house I had a safe on a floor over a crawl space. It had two threaded rods that passed from the inside of the safe, through the floor and below the joists in the crawl space. The two rods were secured to a section of channel iron that spanned across 3 floor joists and the rods were peened over the nuts so that they couldn't be unscrewed. It's unlikely that a thief would know the existence of that hardware and enter the crawl space equipped with a pair of bolt cutters during a burglary.

A fire sprinkler over the safe is good insurance against fire but it's more effective on city water than a well. In any event, in a fire it's better than nothing.
Speaking of fire, documents should be in a second smaller fire safe inside the first larger fire safe.

Don't leave your oxy-acetylene torch, plasma cutter or angle grinders next to your safe - I swear I've seen people do that :o

Leave easy bait. Stick a non functional pistol in the sock drawer of the dresser in the master bedroom. Prop up an old shotgun minus the firing pin, behind a door. Leave costume jewelry in a nice jewelry box on top of a dresser. An easily stolen small decoy safe might divert an attack on a hidden safe. If the decoy safe has a hidden camera trained on it, even better.

I'm a big fan of floor safes mounted in concrete slabs. Floor safes are not very big and are prone to flooding but they are also very easy to hide and extremely difficult to defeat in situ. They are good choices for securing a few handguns, keys to larger safe rooms, jewelry and bolts, trigger groups, etc. from seldom used guns stored in other safes.

And last - Valuable objects such as firearms, jewelry, tools, electronics, etc. should be carefully photographed and those digital images should be stored OFF-SITE. Items such as firearms, electronics, tools should be photographed with a minimum of 3 photos of each item: One overall photograph, One photograph of the serial number and One photograph of the make & model of the item.
Important documents and hard to replace documents should also be photographed or photocopied. Things such as: passports, driver's licenses, birth certificates, insurance policies, titles, deeds, etc. should be recorded and stored off-site in case of loss by fire or flood.
Those digital images and copies of documents should be stored at a trusted friend or family member's house (in their safe!), an attorney's office or a safe deposit box. DO NOT STORE THOSE PHOTOS AND PHOTOCOPIES ON SITE !

[1Papalote]

I had to temporarily move due to storm damage on two occasions. At one temporary home I had to leave the safe in the garage. I covered it with a cardboard appliance box and put case hardened locks on the garage door.

Hurricane Harvey flooded my canon safe with 14" water. I called Cannon to purchase the internals. They replaced my safe at no cost to me as their warranty protects the buyer against flood, fire and theft. I kept the old safe as well. Buy Cannon safes!!

When my home is finished the safe will reside in a tight, locked closet. Will likely store lead ingots under the floor boards to make it too heavy to move. It will have some type of fasade to cover it. Also considering a noisy device should the closet door be opened. Alarms only work when turned on.

A coworkers dad's safe was stolen from their ranch house last year. It was not bolted to the floor or hidden.

It's sad that one has to go to such measures to protect valuables from the lazy pukes who steal.

1Papalote

[john.k]

Ive often thought that a gunsafe disguised as a bed base,or a setee would be a good way to hide it away.Obviously not so easy to access,but if I had to leave a house unlived in for a period,I would do this.