Rifle test Hi-Tek coating

[btroj]

Ran some rounds with Hi-Tek coating, thanks Gunoil, they my 375 H&H today.

265 GC from a mould by Accurate Moulds. These were water dropped to a hardness of 24 BHn but the heat treating was annealed in the curing phase of coating. Bullets as shot were 13 BHn. I plan to see of I can re heat treat a few and see what that changes.

Charge was 27.5 gr of 2400, a load that shoots well with this bullet. I have fired over 500 with this load in lube development work and have learned what this bullet generally is capable of in this rifle. I did use a Dacron filler.

Average for 10 shots with a "normal" lube was 1763.3 while the coated bullets averaged 1764.2. Pretty dang close. The normal lube had an SD of 3.4, the coated SE was 13.6. The coated had a single low velocity of 1729 that thru the SD off, the others were all withing a range from 1761 to 1777. Is tells me the coating is capable of shooting consistent velocities over a ten shot string. I will load more for further testing, I just didn't want to load 50 and find they shot poorly.


http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/21bbb42cac38b06156a0de202081dff2_zpsc9de5499.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/21bbb42cac38b06156a0de202081dff2_zpsc9de5499.jpg.h tml)

First shot from an oily bore when well high and off paper, this is the following 9 at 100 yards. 2.5 inch overall group, a few outliers made it worse than it should have been. For this rifle and bullet this is a decent but hardly great group. It would certainly work for hunting purposes.


I also loaded 5 rounds with 48 gr of 4895 and a bit of filler. The chrono did not read these but I expect velocity would be in the 2050 to 2100 fps range. There was a large cloud of smoke on each shot with this load. I think it was gas blowing by and some lead. There was no streaks of lead in the bore but a uniform grey was was visible t the muzzle. I think the low hardness alloy was pushed beyond its limits with this load. A higher BHn will be tested in the future to verify this. The 5 shots made about an 18 inch group at 100 yards.


http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/0e6161c09f36a32b3786e3486a97791e_zpsfe6a8145.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/0e6161c09f36a32b3786e3486a97791e_zpsfe6a8145.jpg.h tml)

This is the bullet I recovered from the berm. Notice that a bit of the copper colored coating is still visible. These bullets are generally no where near this flattened at 100 yards, the annealing of the alloy during coating made a significant difference in performance in the berm.

I will be trying a few different things with these bullets, I have 130 left. I want to see if I can re-heat treat some and see what that changes.

Over all first impression is that for velocities into the 1800 fps range this coating is very capable of working well. Speeds higher than that need further testing. I do not think the coating can make up for low alloy hardness, it merely prevents bore contact but does not really improve the bullets ability to hold the lands. A slower powder will be your friend here, a gentle acceleration will give better accuracy in my opinion.

There was no real odor or smoke upon firing. No odd residue was notified in the bore upon a quick cleaning. The bore was not leaded, the slight grey was was removed with a few passes of a bore brush.

Promising results but I am still not sold. I need more testing to be convinced in rifles. I also want to see how my powder coated bullets from 500mag do.

[gunoil]

keep in mind, iam a newbie, some rifle members may coat better than i. I only do pistol.

[btroj]

I am actually quite happy with these results Gunoil, It tells me the coating can work. There are some details I need to work out in load development.

I greatly appreciate you coating the bullets for me. This has raised my interest level a huge amount.

[M Hicks]

Good write up on the results btroj. If you could quit shaking like a cat passing peach pits, the groups might be a little better. :kidding:

The powder coating that I have worked around, never applied it, has been able to withstand a pretty decent amount of heat. If done carefully I think you could heat treat, or retreat in your particular case, the bullets without messing up the coating. It might be something better acheived in the final baking and curing of the product rather than as an additional step after they are sured.

Do you think a dry bore would have prevented the first shot flier?

In the picture is seems like a lot of the coating is gone. Not knocking gunoil's job of doing it but from the other pictures, if I recall correctly, there was a uniform coat still on the bullets when recovered. Could that be one of the 4895 bullets? More of a rehtorical than anything.

[popper]

Btroj - similar to my results with the dark green pistol coating in 30-30, except I had lots of gunk left in the bore. I see you are using the red/copper so I won't investigate it. Definitely is an alloy problem, not particularly a coating problem. I almost got a decent group using 2/1 Roto Sb-Pb/pb with arsenic & HT after coating, a plinker load of LeverE. I did get a 0.75" 6 shot group in 308 @ 100, same alloy & HT, max jacket load of 335. The guy next to me was bragging of 3 round touching with jacketed from his H&K 308 AR. I kept my mouth shut. I think the PC will take it OK.

[gunoil]

Ausglock told me to get this: Hi-tek-supercoat makes it!

I purchased from bayoubullet.net (USA Dealer)
http://www.bayoubullets.net/

THIS IS FOR CAST BULLET MOLDS.

Wow! This stuff is worth having around big time. Sproo plate is slick and coated. Everything is smoother and dropping and this is the correct stuff because its made by mother ship.

If ya dont cast, buy one only (NOE MOLD FROM AL) favorite molds, get a RCBS 20 lb pot and go at it! You dont have to do all your calibers. I dont do my 40's, i buy them and coat and size myself. I buy unsized/unlubed. But if ya have some extra money casting is fun.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/EAF1A40F-3778-400D-852F-AF5639BA408A-8304-000008A9B7288297_zps8a5838cc.jpg

[gunoil]

Send me a few more if ya want, i'll try some new green. Maybe popper or someone would hit a few for ya, then you could run test again. My oven's "double re-dundant temp gage'ed" and dead-on 375. You have the gas checks on and thats a must. Like i said: i do pistol only.

[btroj]

Marc- I am pretty sure that was from the 2400 loads. Based on where the targets were, side by side a foot apart, the impact area I dug in was for the 1750 fps loads.

Popper- I agree that the ally is critical. These bullets were not up to the ask of a 2100 fps load. At least they all hit paper, I told a huge piece, and made round holes.

Gunoil- I may send you a few me and ask that after each heating you drop them straight from the oven I to water. That would help keep the hardness up in the 20s instead of annealing them to 13. Heat treating can make a huge difference in rifle bullets like this. I could cast from a harder alloy but that would lead to a more frangible bullet at 2100 fps and above and I want to hunt with them.

I keep seeing images of a convection oven in my future......

[popper]

after each heating you drop them straight from the oven I to water - I couldn't get that to do any good until I got the Sb up to 3%, and I heated for 30, 40 min.
I see a HF PC gun in your future.

[btroj]

Hmmmm.
I wonder if starting with a hard bullet like I did if that would make a difference? I don't think heating the bullet for 30 min with the coating is a viable option.

My alloy is roughly 2.5 Sb, 1 Sn, rest lead. It water dropped to 24 BHn.

I gotta get an oven and some Hi-Tek and try some stuff I suppose....

[popper]

I did 4x coated, dropped in water after 30 min. The higher Sb alloy was 165s and almost got a group @50. The RD lower Sb didn't do good. They were both coated, cooked & WD'd at the same time. I think leadman used lino in his 06 to keep them on paper.
Oh, make sure there is some As in there.

[btroj]

Lino isn't an option for me. I want a hunting bullet and Lino at 2100 is gonna be too brittle for my tastes.

Dang it. This is almost as bad as making lube.....

[leadman]

I did quite a bit of testing in my 30-06 and 223 Rem with high velocities and posted it in the Simple Hi-Tek Coating that is a sticky.
I found no way to maintain hardness other than thru the components of the alloy. I did end up using heat treated linotype that was 35BHN and after 2 thick coats of HT and baked the minimum it was still 32 BHN.
The Grey smoke you mentioned is the coating that has burned and coming off the boolit when it exits the muzzle per Hi-Tek.

I acheived 2,550 fps in the 30-06 with a 200gr boolit and 3,465 fps in the Contender rifle in 223 Rem with the Lyman 45gr RN. Both wore Gator gas checks. I have been under the weather and busy so haven't got back to trying to improve on the accuracy.

And you are right about the alloy as testing showed when the alloy was over-pressured by the enlarged groups. The velocities were close to what Richard Lee wrote up in his Secind edition reloading manual. The gas checks and coating I believe helped raise the velocity just a little.
The slower powders also did allow much higher velocity and smaller groups at the same velocity as the faster powders.
I was reading an old Handloader Bullet Casting Annual article written by Dave Scovill on the use of Super Grex as a case filler. He stated that it actually cleaned a previously leaded bore and kept the bore from leading any further. I may try this as it seems the bore fouling may cause some of the accuracy issues at high velocity with the HT.

[btroj]

Granulated shot buffer is on the short list of things to be tested. The shallow shoulder of the 375 H&H should let the buffer easily flow out of the case so huge pressure increases shouldn't occur. I have some slower powders to try.

If you kept a 35 BHn alloy at 32 BHn by minimal heating that gives me some hope.

I wonder if this is a good time to try a .25 percent Cu alloy?

Thanks for the info guys, it is nice to have some background info as we go off into the unknown. At least a hint of a trail is in front of me.

[M Hicks]

I give it about four more posts before you get the stuff.

[btroj]

Yah, yah, I know Marc. I already considered an order today. Even looked online at convection ovens.

[rlb]

Won't be long now and he'll have dust a flyin'.

[btroj]

No dust, I am leaning towards Hi-Tek epoxy coating. Then again, I haven't tried the powder coat yet.

I like the fact the powder coat didn't change the bullet hardness as much.

[popper]

.25 percent Cu alloy Didn't make any diff as to cooked BHN, As does. Funny it works that way. I did some 40 & 9 stuff without the As and they stay soft after cooking, As didn't help much until the Sb was 3%. All my alloy has Cu added. 400F for 30 min & WD H-T isn't as good as same for PC. Strange. Yes, I'm not going to use lino to get 11-15 BHN with H-T. Been doing a lot of reading research and still haven't found an answer. Got a chrony yesterday but have to find a cheap tripod, just can't test right without one. My weird strength tester showed the H-T coated low Sb alloy was 1# to dent, higher Sb alloy, WD but not H-T cooked was 12#. Only talking 1% additional Sb.
I can send you some 308 0.310 CBs PCd to try.

[btroj]

I may need to add some mag shot to my alloy to up the As.

Like I said, this is all new ground. Learning as we go.

[Love Life]

Wait until you start sizing and reloading en mass with the HI-TEK. You'll scratch your head and wonder "What am I missing from the reloading process?"

You'll realize that your fingers are clean, your sizing dies are clean, your seating dies are clean, and you didn't have to wipe off your rds after loading them...

I have some 325365 cast of Pure Linotype waiting to be tested. One batch is checked and twice coated. One batch is checked and 3 time coated. No beating around the bush here. These are going to get stuffed over the starting-max charges of Benchmark for jacketed bullets. They'll either work or they won't.

[Freightman]

Wait until you start sizing and reloading en mass with the HI-TEK. You'll scratch your head and wonder "What am I missing from the reloading process?"

You'll realize that your fingers are clean, your sizing dies are clean, your seating dies are clean, and you didn't have to wipe off your rds after loading them...

I have some 325365 cast of Pure Linotype waiting to be tested. One batch is checked and twice coated. One batch is checked and 3 time coated. No beating around the bush here. These are going to get stuffed over the starting-max charges of Benchmark for jacketed bullets. They'll either work or they won't.
I don't do Hi Tech but do PC and clean is the word, will have a hard time going back. [smilie=l:

[popper]

Don't have to wash you hands after handling, store forever without a mess. etc.

[btroj]

Ok guys, I get it, the stuff is clean!

I will probably change over my handgun lubrication and work on rifle stuff.

[popper]

Does coating solve all problems? I don't know, want to find it's limits. Does it solve a lot of problems - yes. Will it get better - probably, within the limits of physics. Pencil & paper work great, I prefer the computer, it has some advantages.

[btroj]

Like you popper I want to see what the stuff can do.

Handguns we know about. Rifles, not so much. Is there a speed or pressure limit? What alloys work best for higher velocities? How does fit change?

So many questions.

[Love Life]

I would assume that the alloy would be the limiting factor. From what others have posted, you still have to match the alloy to the application.

For me, I prefer my rifle bullets coated with a copper jacket, but I'm going to experiment with this stuff.

Where I see it being the match of jacketed, is when the top end speed for the alloy used is the same top end for a jacketed bullet. Probably up in heavy bullet territory.

[jmort]

I have been reading every thread/post on Hi-Tek, PC, Epoxy Paint, and every method of application. Spent a lot of time reading what others are doing and what results they are getting. It seems to be clear that the best method is electrostatic powder coat. As for the Hi-Tek, it lowers velocity in every comparison I have seen, and accuracy is degraded in the comparison tests I have seen. I just don't want to get a PC gun and go though the PC process. In the end my end up doing that as Love life has pointed out the benefits of Hi-Tek, PC, and Epoxy Paint, way less mess.

[btroj]

Ummmm, my velocity for a 10 shot string was 1.5 fps different from a 10 shot string with the same bullet, same load, with traditional lube. I would say the difference isn't relevant at all.

I want to do some playing around with the Hi-Tek coating in rifles. It really hasn't been worked with much in rifles and I see this as fertile ground for testing.

It may not work out well but I plan to find out.

[popper]

How does fit change? I haven't tried that yet but plan to this week. I'll size some PC 308 down to 0.309 vs my standard 0.310.

[btroj]

More important, if we size to .310, coat them, and get .312 do we need to size again if .310 is that guns preferred size to diameter?

Can the coating let a .310 bullet shoot well in a gun that prefers a .314 bullet if we add enough coating to make it that fat?

Man, this is as bad as lube testing.

[sparky45]

I think it was mentioned in a earlier thread that sizing prior to coating inhibited the coatings ability to adhere to the boolit. Could also be that I misunderstood the post. I think Hi Tek posted the info.

[Love Life]

Man, this is as bad as lube testing.

Yeah, but cleaner. Did we mention how clean the reloading process is? :bigsmyl2:

[btroj]

Why yes you did! A few times....


As for sizing before, I sized and checked the bullets I sent to Gunoil for coating. I cleaned them with denatured alcohol before sending them to him. I would have used acetone if I had some on hand. Sizing first isn't a problem, just don't try to coat greasy bullets.

[Love Life]

Why yes you did! A few times....



Just wanted to make sure!!

I like that you sized and leaned with denatured alcohol, and the fact that it allowed the coating to still work like designed. Hmmm. I shall test this myself, as after the coating builds up, it is quite the squeeze when pushing them through the die. I hit the coated bullets with a spritz of One Shot case lube, shake them around, walk away and have a smoke, and come back and size them. It allows them to size down super easy.

I have noticed no issues with the one shot causing powder slowed or lack of ignition. All of my pistol ammo still shoots to POA.

[jmort]

"Ummmm, my velocity for a 10 shot string was 1.5 fps different from a 10 shot string with the same bullet, same load, with traditional lube. I would say the difference isn't relevant at all."


"Hi-Tek, PC, Epoxy Paint" That is what I stated, verbatim. I don't believe this thread has been a discussion about "traditional lube." I never mentioned it. Why not test ES PC against Hi-Tek? That is what I was referring to and the results I have seen show ES PC will have higher velocity. Hi-Tek was 50 FPS less and way less accurate. But let's not let facts get in the way. Bottom line, I believe coated bullets are the way of the future and as mentioned, way less mess, no mess really.

[btroj]

I haven't shot my PC bullets yet, that is next. I have two different powder coatings, one is shiny, the other matte finished. Based on the effort required to size them there will be a velocity difference between the two powder coatings.

I think the coatings are a step forward but I am not ready to call them the way of the future. Handguns work well with them, we still need more testing to see what they do in rifles. I also would be interested to see what a good long range pistol shoot can do at 100 yards with them. Maybe we need to get 44Man to try some?

[jmort]

"Handguns work well with them, we still need more testing to see what they do in rifles."

Agree. At boolit speed, it should work in a rifle, but this has not been proven.

"Maybe we need to get 44Man to try some?"

In the fullness of time it may just happen.

[Ausglock]

sizing before coating will cause smash test failure as the coating cannot lock into the grain of the lead.

Been there. done that. got the T shirt.

However... coat once then size and recoat twice is no problem.

Currently coating some 44 200gr RNF for a pig shooter to use in his rifle. 2 coats of red/copper and they are good to go.. Size .430

[btroj]

Interesting, I sized mine before coating. I haven't tried smashing any but the coating was not removed by sizing after coating.

The coat, size, coat again, then resize would certainly work also.

[Love Life]

OFF TOPIC ALERT

I wonder if the meat along the wound channel in game is safe to eat. I, personally, wouldn't use these for hunting until some wound channels are seen. I have noticed missing coating on recovered boolits. Whether it is from the fast and hot ride down the bore, or from the sudden stop in the berm that is causing it is still undetermined by me. I need to shoot some of these into water, recover them, and break out the microscope...

[btroj]

Hard to say. The Hi-Tek is probably pretty safe to eat after curing.

It is something to investigate.

If that is the best you can do for off topic you are a noob. Now asking if powder coating works for fixing a gun stock, that is off topic.

[Love Life]

Dang. Maybe I should have asked about increasing case neck thickness?

[btroj]

That would work. Just don't be lame and fall back on the no gas check thing.

Maybe we need someone to tell us the coatings are abrasive and will ruin our barrels.........

[Ausglock]

I have eaten pork that was shot with coated bullets. I still only have one head and ten fingers. So no side effects that I can find.....

[popper]

Can it be any worse than tranny gue , mother oil or LLA?

[Love Life]

Good point.

[btroj]

Can it be any worse than tranny gue , mother oil or LLA?

Hey, I resemble that remark

[popper]

Did some sorting/sizing last nite on the cast 308, already PCd, attempting to find out why I had 4 'flyers' out of a good string. Wow, 1/2 sized 0.310, the rest I sized to 0.309 this morning. 1/2 of those were 0.308! I cast, coat & size both PC & H-T, guess I was casting too fast with a hot mould? Tested the hardness with my makeshift tester, all came out the same, cast ~ a month ago. I tried 0.309-0.311 with normal lube and 0.310 won, Hope I can get to try these this week. If it's sizing I'll try the piglet method to build up as I hate to throw away 50 GCs. Think I read that H-T won't stick to PC. The wife's Ipad can't spell, that was to be motor oil, not mother oil.

[kweidner]

I haven't shot my PC bullets yet, that is next. I have two different powder coatings, one is shiny, the other matte finished. Based on the effort required to size them there will be a velocity difference between the two powder coatings.

I think the coatings are a step forward but I am not ready to call them the way of the future. Handguns work well with them, we still need more testing to see what they do in rifles. I also would be interested to see what a good long range pistol shoot can do at 100 yards with them. Maybe we need to get 44Man to try some?


Shoot my ht all the time to 100 with my 44 mag. Truth is I got better accuracy with ht and traditional felix lube in a ht coated bullet. My old load for my 8" 41 plinking was 9 gr of unique felix lubed. 220gr keith. It was more accurate than I was. No go with HT. I had to drop down to 8 grains for accuracy anywhere close. Ht has prevented the antimony wash I used to get with my 11 bhn boolits in my mags .357, 44, and 41. I still traditional lube all my magnums on top of HT. It makes a difference in accuracy. Try it yourself.

[geargnasher]

Brad, the skid marks on the base band really caught my attention. Maybe it was the fast powder and 13 BHN boolits.

Gear

[btroj]

Could be Gear. That is something I will be keep an eye out for. Diggin bullets from the berm can help so much in understanding what is happening in the bore.

[Smoke4320]

Powdercoat & superglue will fix a stock crack :)
sorry could not help myself

[gunoil]

Post 54? Wheres all the others? oh, btroj iam on the wrong thread again, I aint even *** to be here, I dont shoot rifle. Well my lil' carbine.

[btroj]

No, but you have experience with this coating. That matters. I am trying to expand upon the knowledge base you and others have developed.

[runfiverun]

did someone say powder coat a case neck???
now we are getting somewhere.....
will this stuff stick to clean brass???



there is thread drift.
but i'm serious.

[btroj]

Why wouldn't it? It sticks to gas checks.

Key would be masking the rest of the case to keep it on just the neck. I don't know how well it would handle a firing, sizing, loading cycle.

Interesting concept Run. Maybe help fit necks in a sloppy chamber......

[Dryball]

Ausglock should chime in...if the HT won't come off during boolit sizing I don't see why it would come off of brass...neat idea but what would be the benefits of coating the necks if the boolits are already lubed? If it's friction why not eliminate sizing of the neck area?

[popper]

but i'm serious. Come on R5R, you really going to cook rifle cases @ 400 for 10 minutes? Or 1/2 hr for PC?

[Ausglock]

Ausglock should chime in...if the HT won't come off during boolit sizing I don't see why it would come off of brass...neat idea but what would be the benefits of coating the necks if the boolits are already lubed? If it's friction why not eliminate sizing of the neck area?


Out of my area of knowledge. I neck turn all my brass and run jacketed pills in the 25/06 and the 308.

[btroj]

Come on R5R, you really going to cook rifle cases @ 400 for 10 minutes? Or 1/2 hr for PC?

He would find a way to heat the neck only. He is like that.

Use water to keep the head cool, use an over of some sort to heat the neck. Run can do it. He will probably even run into snow barefoot and in his undies to try it. Yah, there is a story there.

[rlb]

They make some heatproof masking tape. I have some that came in my Eastwood kit. Haven't tried it yet. I don't think it would protect the body of the case from the heat though.

[leadman]

Probably won't happen until after my elk hunt but I want to try HT with E2 cat, my wax based lube, and HT with a top coat with some moly in it just to see what happens. I have gotten full jacketed velocity with the HT coating but group sizes have been larger than I like.

Just to do it I am going to change to TAC in my Contender 223 Rem with 23" barrel and see if I can hit 3,500 fps with the 45gr Lyman boolit. I had run out of room using H4895 as the case was full to the top of the neck.

I have shot the 30-06 with the 200gr boolit at over 2,500 fps using LBT Blue Soft and groups were moa so the gun and boolit are capable, just want to do it with HT.

[dverna]

Leadman,

If I got moa at over 2500 with a .30 cal 200 gr cast bullet with a lube I would be done!!! Why shake and bake (maybe more than once) when I can run a bullet through a sizer and be done? Did the performance with lube deteriorate after 20 or 50 shots? Just curious why your quest continues.

BTW - good luck on your elk hunt!

Don Verna