Question About my First Powder Charge in my New Shiloh Sharps

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just loaded three cartridges for my new .45-70, my cast 457125 cast 20:1 SPG .459", bore mics just over .4595".

I dropped 60 gr of FFg Goex but found it nearly fills the case. I thought I read somewhere that the Black Powder should only be compressed .1". Using Walters wads .060"

The Shiloh Sharps COL with the 457125 is 2.62". This brings the base of the seated 525 gr boolit .78" down measured from the case mouth. If I drop a charge of FFg to a level .010" below the base of the boolit, that means such a powder charge would be 38 grains.

Did I misunderstand this .10 compressing of Black Powder and should I just stick with 60 gr?

[littlejack]

SJH:
Your load of 60 grains of FFg, is too light. I load and shoot the same boolit you cast. I drop in 70 grains of your Goex FFg, and set a .060 card wad on top. Then compress with a compression die and seat that boolit out far enough to touch the lands.
Just make sure you only compress the powder and opw to match the depth of seating your boolit.
Goex powder burns more consistently when compressed. You should not have any trouble at all getting 70 grains of black in your cases. You do not have to worry about blowing up your rifle.
Regards
Jack

[nhrifle]

That stuff is good to compress as far as you want unless you squeeze it so much that the case balloons and won't chamber. I did that once and luckily it was an easy fix. You will not over pressure your rifle with black powder, just make sure there is no air space.

[bigted]

didn't say what the case is ...

Winchester cases typically hold more powder then the others.
Remington cases in my trials hold the least but are pretty close with the starline cases.

as is mentioned ... no worry about an overload in blackpowder. also the GOEX will withstand compression rite up to the point that it is pushed into a solid instead of powder ... BUT ... do ALL your compression with a steel stem in your die and NEVER compress the powder charge with your boolit.

from 65 to 74 grains will give you the best overall performance with this powder... in a 45-70 case anyway.

have a fun time smoking it up the first time.

[huntrick64]

Just so you have some detail, I am using Starline cases and put in 72.5 grains weighed KIK 2F. I add a .030 vegie wad and compress that down with a compression die to the exact depth where the base of my bullet needs to be so that it just touches the lands. That ends up being .250" compression for the best groups with this load in MY rifle (YMMV). I am using a 540 grain BACO Money bullet. When seated where it touches the lands in my rifle, I have the last grease groove totally exposed and most of the band between it and the next grease groove is also exposed.

What I do is first is find the exact depth in the case where your bullet base will be if the bullet is just touching the lands. Then charge a bunch of cases starting at 68 grains (say 10-12 each) going in 1 grain increments up to 73 grains. Put on my .030 wad and compress all of these cases to that exact depth you determined earlier. This is how you achieve increased compression of the powder all while keeping your bullet at the same location in your case. Shoot these loads to find the best one, then if your really anal, take your two best loads and make up some more loads between those two loads, but this time use 1/2 grain loads. So if your best loads were 70 grains and 71 grains you might want to load up 70.0, 70.5, and 71.0 and test them. Then you can move on to test a bunch of the other variables one-at-a-time (like seating depth, primer brand, over primer wads, lube, neck tension, bullet alloy, bullet style, and on and on and on).

Good luck and keep us posted.

Follow their advice above and get that powder at least up into the

[country gent]

What does your bore measure? The nose on 457125 is bore riding. on my sample here the drivig section measures .640 and some of that should be able to be outside the case mouth. Is the nose section at some point larger than the bore causing this seating depth? Check out the nose to bore relationship as it may be part of the issue. I load 67 grns under this bullet with a .125 grn grease cookie under it. My 34" barrel needs a little extra lube. Shoos great out to 500 yds.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm using Starline cases. Good advice, thanks guys. Especially the note from bigted to compress the load with a steel stem and not the boolit.

In Mike Ventrino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West he notes 60 gr of Goex FFg with the 457125.

Today is the day I made smoke.

[WARD O]

Are you using a long drop tube to drop the powder into the case - It will settle it quite a bit before you compress to the needed depth.

[montana_charlie]

I thought I read somewhere that the Black Powder should only be compressed .1".
When you 'read something somewhere' that you might use later to actually determine how to load a cartridge, it's best to keep a record of exactly what it said, and where you read it.
Then, you can go back to verify 'what you think you know' before letting a faulty memory lead you in a wrong direction.

I am guessing that it said something like, "Don't compress more than a tenth of an inch when using the bullet."

Light compressiuon (like above) can be done with a bullet, but only Swiss powder is commonly loaded with so little compression.

CM

[ColColt]

In Mike Ventrino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West he notes 60 gr of Goex FFg with the 457125.

If you'll notice he also says Garbe uses a 68 gr charge of the same powder with that bullet. It depends on the rifle.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Problems at the loading bench, haven't made it to the range yet. It seems I've got a rifle with a tight chamber, an H&I die slightly oversized, thick Starline brass and am attempting to seat 525 gr boolits. All in all, I am unable to combine the components for success. I picked up a few Winchester brass along the way and have successfully loaded 4 rounds that chamber boolits sized with my H&I die marked .457" which is re-sizing to .459". I am crimping using the sizer die.

I wish I had cast a bunch of 405 gr boolits with my other mold, I would probably be able to make more cartridges to shoot with it today. I'm thinking I need to order Winchester brass for my 525 gr boolits. I'll probably buy new H&I dies fresh from the factory too.

[montana_charlie]

Problems at the loading bench, haven't made it to the range yet. It seems I've got a rifle with a tight chamber, an H&I die slightly oversized, thick Starline brass and am attempting to seat 525 gr boolits.
Pull the depriming punch from your full length resizing die.
Back the die up out of the press eight or ten turns.
Run the ram, with a loaded cartridge, up into the die.
Screw the die down until it makes contact with the case/bullet.
Drop the ram a little and screw the die in another full turn.
Raise the ram to full extension, then try that cartridge in your chamber.

Keep adjusting the die deeper in the press until the cartridge chambers ... or you run out of adjustment.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Problems at the loading bench, haven't made it to the range yet. It seems I've got a rifle with a tight chamber, an H&I die slightly oversized, thick Starline brass and am attempting to seat 525 gr boolits. All in all, I am unable to combine the components for success. I picked up a few Winchester brass along the way and have successfully loaded 4 rounds that chamber boolits sized with my H&I die marked .457" which is re-sizing to .459". I am crimping using the sizer die.

I wish I had cast a bunch of 405 gr boolits with my other mold, I would probably be able to make more cartridges to shoot with it today. I'm thinking I need to order Winchester brass for my 525 gr boolits. I'll probably buy new H&I dies fresh from the factory too.

Seat that bullet over the top of 70 grs of powder with a .030 wad compressed enough to let the bullet seat to the driving band. Don't crimp any more than it takes to remove the flare from the case mouth.

[ColColt]

One thing that may help is whenever I get Starline brass the first that that I do is treat them to the annealing process. They'll tell you to do that, basically, on their website,if you're shooting cast bullets. It softens the case mouth and I've had less trouble seating bullets.

"Our .45-70 brass has been tested at elevated pressures suitable for Magnum Heavy Hunting Loads in adequate gun systems. When loading with black powder, annealing of mouth may be necessary to allow case to properly seal chamber due to lower pressures generated by these loads. Our case is produced very strong to withstand high pressure loads associated with smokeless hunting loads and since the only way to make brass harder is to work the material our only option is to leave them stiffer so the customers can anneal for specific application. See annealing procedure in Commonly Asked Questions, section #4."

https://www.starlinebrass.com/order-online/all-cases.cfm

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I am unable to chamber a 459125 seated in a Starline brass in my new Shiloh Sharps. The chamber does accept Winchester brass with this boolit only after using the re-sizer die as a seater die following the steps as spelled out by Montana Charlie. Using the crimping die just enough to take the flare out of the case mouth still leaves me with a cartridge that will not chamber.

I don't think annealing the brass will affect what I see as the issue, the thickness of the brass. I believe the Starline brass will work with the 405 gr boolits when I get them cast up and sized.

Just got back from the range, no accuracy to report, adjusted the sights. Now I have to go to work.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

457125 not 459125. I'm in a hurry to get to work

[Lead pot]

There is no set amount of compression for any powder that will give the same accuracy. You have to find what compression the load gets its accuracy with. Then when you find that point changing the bullet heavy or light longer or shorter chances are you will change the powder load and compression again.
I find compressing powder to the point where it starts to smash the granules is about as far as you want to go in most cases not all but most to hold consistent ES's and SD's.

The Lyman 457-125 has a long bore riding section. I had to send one mould back because that mould would drop a bullet that was .4508" too wide in diameter for the .450" bore the Shiloh has that made it a hard push to chamber the round.
I would take a bullet not loaded and see if it will fit in the muzzle, if it does take a round that will not seat in the chamber and see how it fits the muzzle. If it does then I would check out the case to see if an empty case will chamber. If it won’t run it through the full length sizing die all the way till the shell holder makes contact with the sizing die. Chamber the empty case to see if it chambers. If it does your problem is the way you’re loading.
Is the bullet seated deep enough so the first driving band does not seat too tight in the chamber end? Are you seating the bullet deeper than the powder is compressed? If this is the case when you seat the bullet in the case on top of the powder charge that is not deep enough in the case you will deform the bore riding section of the 125 bullet and make it larger than the bore is.

[montana_charlie]

I believe the Starline brass will work with the 405 gr boolits when I get them cast up and sized.
If the 500 grain buillet will chamber when loaded in Winchester brass, it will chamber in any brand of brass.
But, you will need to size the bullet diameter down before seating it in the Starline cases.

A 405 grain bullet, if it has a .459" diameter, will give you the same problem you have now.

If you really want to know what you are working with, take some measurements.

First, find out what the diameter of your chamber mouth is. (A fired case will be close.)

Second, measure the thickness of the neck wall on the Winchester and the Starline cases.
(Take enough measurements to get a well-rounded average for each brand.

Then, measure the bullets (405 and 500 grainers) to find their diameters.
(Before sizing in your lubrisizer, and after sizing.)

With accuratre numbers and some clear thinking, a calculator should enable you to predict what will fit ... and what won't fit.

CM

[Gunlaker]

You might also want to measure the diameter of the loaded round at the case mouth. If you are roll crimping it's easy to get a bit of a bulge there. Have you tried the minimum possible amount of belling the case mouth followed by no crimp? Shiloh's have a tighter chamber than some of the other brands and I think that's a good thing.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Shiloh's chamber at the case mouth is .481". If your loaded round is any larger than .481" at the case mouth it will not chamber.

If your brass case eck wall is .011" that will leave you enough room to load a .459" bullet.

[TXGunNut]

Pull the depriming punch from your full length resizing die.
Back the die up out of the press eight or ten turns.
Run the ram, with a loaded cartridge, up into the die.
Screw the die down until it makes contact with the case/bullet.
Drop the ram a little and screw the die in another full turn.
Raise the ram to full extension, then try that cartridge in your chamber.

Keep adjusting the die deeper in the press until the cartridge chambers ... or you run out of adjustment.

CM

Could also buy a Lyman taper crimp die. My rifle has a tight chamber and the taper crimp die smooths out the case mouth without applying a crimp, if desired. A crimp CAN be applied if you find it necessary.
I think one of the wisest paragraphs I've read about the BPCR was actually written by Steve Garbe in the SPG Reloading Primer:
"In summary, black powder cartridge rifles, like modern high power rifles, benefit from attention to detail. Any rifle is an individual, and one must experiment with powder charge, primer, bullet weight, style, temper and loading technique to arrive at the best load for a given rifle. Changing only one variable at a time, and keeping good records of performance and grouping is the only way to come up with an accurate and dependable load. Usually several hundred rounds must be fired in experimentation the determine what will be an accurate and dependable match handload. Given an accurate rifle to begin with, you can only shoot as well as your ammunition." -Steve Garbe

I read somewhere (sorry, Montana Charlie!) that Steve's star pupil Mike Venturino said that sometimes it takes years to figure out a given BPCR, I'm damn sure living proof of that! I've given up on this quest for months, even years at a time but I'm finally making progress.
Good luck, and welcome to the affliction!

[bigted]

as per the PM do all your measurements then after determining what diameter your case/boolit diameter is that your rifle needs ... get a size die to make your boolits this diameter or ...better yet...get another mold that cast's boolits of the perfect diameter to begin with for your rifles need. typically an as-cast boolit will/should give the best accuracy without the need of sizing ... even if the boolit is outta round a very small bit... very small!

another system that works well before buying a new mold is to buy boolits already cast and lubed to try different diameters and yet not burn the money tree without knowing what yer buying ... just go to Buffalo Arms located in Idaho on their internet site and order the size boolits you desire to try before ordering a mould that will run 130 + dollars for a good mold.

after trying these boolits from Buff Arms then maybe look at the molds that they have to choose from or maybe take a look at the best buy ive found on quality molds... Accurate Molds. they have built me over 20 molds and as of yet I have yet to find a single fault with them. the heavy brass molds are my favorites.

[Gunlaker]

Shiloh's chamber at the case mouth is .481". If your loaded round is any larger than .481" at the case mouth it will not chamber.

If your brass case eck wall is .011" that will leave you enough room to load a .459" bullet.

I haven't done a chamber cast on my Shiloh in .45-70 but that does sound right to me. I slip fit a .459" Money bullet into fireformed Starline cases.

I do recall back when I first bought that rifle that I had some problems getting a .459" bullet to chamber with my brass. It was on of my first BP rifles and I had been roll crimping the bullets. The roll crimp produced a little bulge near the case mouth that was about a thousandth larger than the chamber diameter at the mouth which prevented the cartridges from chambering. That was probably six or seven years ago maybe. I no longer crimp anything other than levergun cartridges. :-)

Chris.

[RMulhern]

All those problems will go away.....when you go this route:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8251/8591488256_2d05f2488b_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/8591488256/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/8591488256/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[Gunlaker]

That is true. :-) I think it's also easier on the pocket book as you are less likely to join the mould of the month club.

Chris.

[bigted]

Rick ... Mr. Mulhern,,, I have seen your boolits often and admired them ... but do tell ... what diameter ... what weight ... what load stack?

may have told all this before but with my softening brain and my listless attention span would you repeat for me and others ... maybe ???

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I was able to cast some 400 gr 457193BV and they chamber with Starline brass. My .459" H&I die sizes to .461" the 457193BV drops from the mould .461". The 457125BV will not seat in the Starline brass even when the sizer die is used to reduce the case mouth down smaller than the 457193. The 457125 cartridge larger at the base of the boolits in the Starline brass than it is with Winchester brass, this is not doubt why they won't chamber. And Winchester 45-70 brass is out of stock, no back order at Midway. Brownell's will accept back orders.

I am compressing the powder with a steel shank that I made for cowboy black powder, this does work well.

I need to get a taper crimp die. I am shooting in between all the overtime, last night it was dark when I got to the range an my rounds hit the bottom of the 4" paper at 100 yards. Next I need to water drop and heat treat my boolits but at least I am loading cartridges that chamber and shoot. Got a long trail ahead.

[montana_charlie]

(1.) I was able to cast some 400 gr 457193BV and they chamber with Starline brass.
(2.) My .459" H&I die sizes to .461" the 457193BV drops from the mould .461".
(3.) The 457125BV will not seat in the Starline brass even when the sizer die is used to reduce the case mouth down smaller than the 457193.
(4.) The 457125 cartridge larger at the base of the boolits in the Starline brass than it is with Winchester brass, this is not doubt why they won't chamber.
1. When you shoot those, see if a 457125BV bullet will slip into a case mouth that has not been resized.

2. This 'appears' to indicate that a .461" bullet, seated in Starline brass, will chamber in your rifle.
Pull one of those bullets and measure it's diameter to see if it gets sized down when being seated in the Starline case.

3. The bullet will not seat in the case?
Did you mean that bullet will not chamber in your rifle when loaded into Starline brass?
What is the diameter of the bullet after you have it prepared to be seated?

4. How much larger? What are the two measurements?




Next I need to water drop and heat treat my boolits
In your opening post you said your bullet alloy is 20:1.
If that refers to the common meaning for that term ... 20 pounds of lead and 1 pound of tin ... water dropping those bullets will have no effect.
That process only hardens bullets that contain antimony.

There is also no value in 'heat treating' lead/tin bullets unless they are so old that they have become 'too soft' for your purpose.
CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My boolits are .461" when re-sized. When I pulled one of my 457125's out of the Starline brass after using the re-sizer to try to form the case down unsuccessfully to try to get it to chamber, the base of the boolit was still 461".

3. I meant to say the cartridge will not chamber when I seat a 457125 in Starline brass.

The .461" 457125 boolit does chamber with Winchester brass, not with Starline. The 461" 400 gr 457193 sized .461" does chamber when seated in Starline brass.

I clamped a micrometer at the base two 525 gr boolits, one loaded in a Starline the other loaded in a Winchester case. The Winchester cartridge dropped out of the grasp of the micrometer. I'll give you the measurements when I load the next set.

Sorry I'm so late in getting answers back to you guys, thanks for all your input. Work has been busy and I'm spending every free minute at the loading bench and sneaking out to the range.

[Gunlaker]

Why not size them down to .459" and see if they work. You won't need to be so far over groove diameter when shooting black powder and soft bullets.

Chris.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I tried that, the 525 gr boolits when sized to .459" in Starline brass don't work either.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Big Ted, I sent you a PM.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Montana Charlie, the 457125 will not seat in un sized brass pulled out of the tumbler before re-sizing.

[montana_charlie]

I'll probably buy new H&I dies fresh from the factory too.


My .459" H&I die sizes to .461"
Considering those two remarks of yours, it looks like your bullet sizing die is 'used', and possibly 'modified' by a previous owner.

Your inclination to buy a new one is probably a good idea. It's even likely that you would be better served by a 458 or 457 sizing die.
But, with no numbers from a chamber cast, that is just a guess.

CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm putting together a shopping list for Midway USA. I'm probably going to order a Lyman M seater die, a Lyman taper crimp die along with H&I dies is .459", .460" and 458". And I am going to need to order more lead already.

[montana_charlie]

I'm probably going to order a Lyman M seater die,
The Lyman M Die is an expander die ... not a seater die.
If your (current) three die set doesn't have an M-type expander slug, you can order one from BACO that will screw into yout Lyman expander die body.
By buying from BACO, you can pick and choose the actual two diameters you want for your loads.

CM

[TXGunNut]

The Lyman M Die is an expander die ... not a seater die.
If your (current) three die set doesn't have an M-type expander slug, you can order one from BACO that will screw into yout Lyman expander die body.
By buying from BACO, you can pick and choose the actual two diameters you want for your loads.

CM

+1 on the BACO M-type expanders. Don't worry about the "Out of Stock..." notes, they only take a week or two to show up.
I use a .450 or so powder compressing insert in a Lee expander die. Lee makes pretty good expanders as well, have one in .457, .458 and .459.

[ColColt]

In his case what would he need, .454-.461"? Or, maybe .458-.460.

[TXGunNut]

In his case what would he need, .454-.461"? Or, maybe .458-.460.

Hard to say, Montana Charlie in post 28 was guiding him down the path to determining that. In my case I only use the expander to slightly bell the case mouth of fired cases so I use a .459. When I use unfired or resized cases the .459 gets them close as I size my boolits to .459. My rifle seems to like little or no neck tension, still working on that. OP's rifle will determine the proper expander but this BPCR newbie would order a .458, .459 and .460 to see what his rifle likes. It appears he'll need a new sizer as well, I don't think that .461 sizer is working for him. A chamber cast may eliminate some guesswork but I suspect some trial and error will still be in store for him.

[ColColt]

My Browning BPCR 45-70 has a groove diameter of .458" so I use a .459" bullet. Luckily, with the Lyman M die it mikes at .457-.459" and that works well. For one thing he specified his size die was marked .457" but sized .459". I think I'd be in the market for another die.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

In messing with this problem I've come to think the problem is not the thickness of the brass but my top punch deforming my boolits during re-sizing in the sizer luber press. As I examine the points of the boolits, it appears some are more pointed and some are flatter, all from the same mould. The boolits are being deformed in the re-sizer. The 525 gr boolit with a blunt nose rests right up against the rifling when chambered.

I took a couple cartridges that did not chamber and hand forced them to see where the marks would be, yup rifling marks on the lead of the boolit. So deforming the meplat of a blunt nose 525 gr boolit that is already at a critical C.O.L. is what I think is preventing the cartridges from chambering. And now I have loaded W-W brass that also does not chamber.

I have a Lyman Sizer-Luber (two of them actually). A Star sizer luber would prevent this problem from occurring. The first step is to send my unsized and sized boolits along with the H&I die to Lyman. I think I need a new H&I die.

My Lyman mould has a BV after the 457125. I don't know what the BV stands for and if this could relate to the deformation from the H&I die.

[ColColt]

From what you posted it appears to me the problem is using the correct top punch, not the size die. My two Lyman sizers work perfect. A star won't be of any benefit without the right top punch. If you're trying to re-size down a couple of thousandths that's a fair amount of pressure on the meplat with the wrong top punch.

The BV after the number may indicate year of manufacturer...just guessing. Mine has an FV.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My top punch is Lyman #374 which is what Lyman specifies for the 457125. My H&I is over sized, stamped .459 but sizes to .461". I bought it used. I'm using 20:1. The finished cartridges do not chamber and I observe the noses of the boolits not uniformed.

[ColColt]

I guess I'm lost. You mentioned the problem was the top punch was deforming the bullet.


In messing with this problem I've come to think the problem is not the thickness of the brass but my top punch deforming my boolits during re-sizing in the sizer luber press.

Dropped bullets from that mould shouldn't be over .459-.460" so, I don't see how a .461" size die could create enough pressure for a proper top punch to deform the nose.

[Gunlaker]

I haven't used my lubrisizer for a long time. I pan lube my grease groove bullets, and when I do use a sizer ( rarely ) I use a Meacham Tool or a Lee push through sizer. This way I don't need to worry about top punches for different bullets. I'm also of the belief that you should mess with the bullet as little as possible. This is where a custom mould is really nice. (In the past I've also accidentally bumped up noses in my RCBS lubrisizer.)

Chris.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The noses of the boolits are deformed, and the cartridges do not chamber. The noses have to be being deformed during re-sizing.

[montana_charlie]

My top punch is Lyman #374 which is what Lyman specifies for the 457125. My H&I is over sized, stamped .459 but sizes to .461". I bought it used. I'm using 20:1. The finished cartridges do not chamber and I observe the noses of the boolits not uniformed.What is the diameter of a 457125 bullet as it comes out of the mould?

CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Montana Charlie, it drops at .461".

I took a knife and sandpaper and re-shaped a round that would not chamber. I shaved off the sides of the boolit to make it look like a money spire pointed boolit and it did chamber.

Now I'm thinking that my Shiloh has a tight chamber with a short free bore and the shape of the blunt nose of the 457125 is too close to the dimensions of the bore and I'm de-forming the boolit during sizing and lubing.

[ColColt]

If it drops from the mould at .461" and you're running it through a size die at .461" that dies isn't sizing at all. What's the diameter just above the front drive band? That bullet is a bore rider and should be about .447-.448"...that's what mine measures. My mould will drop them .459-.460" and when I run it through the .459" die, that's what I get. From all I've understood, there is no free bore on Shiloh barrels. My 40-70 has none.

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie, it drops at .461".
If your bullets come out of the mould at .461", and you run them into a .461" sizing die, there is no force needed to push the bullet down.

How are you managing to upset the noses of those bullets?

Are you hanging your full weight on the press handle while you shoot the lube in?

CM

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Montana Charlie your comments and questions are logical. I'm quite confused about this puzzling condition and I'm working on trying to figure it out.

[bigted]

so here are a couple questions to maybe help identify your real problem ...

1- will your boolit nose fit into the muzzle of your rifle? just the nose section of the boolit.
2- will your boolit ... un-sized ... fit into the fired case after flairing the mouth slightly?
3- can you re-insert your fired case back into the chamber of your rifle? without doing anything to it.

the answer to these questions WILL get you better answers to your questions as these answers WILL inform others of your particular set of problems. without these answers ... everybody will continue to suggest things that will just muddy the water in your path.

[Don McDowell]

I seriously doubt you'll get a .461 diameter bullet to seat in a B serial numbered Shiloh chamber. .458 diameter usually works as a perfect slipfit in the fired cases.
Ted gave the best advice in his post above. If the bullet won't slide into the muzzle up to the driving band it's not going in on the other end either.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

So the 457125 nose will not enter the muzzle of my Shiloh Sharps with a B serial number, and certainly does not even come close to the driving band. The 457193 slips into the muzzle without resistance to the driving band.

[sharpsguy]

Well, DUH! Look at the nose of the 457125 and compare it to the 457193. You are swelling the nose of the 457125 in the process of loading the cartridge. Shilohs have a tight chamber, and a .450 groove diameter bore. The 457193 does not have a bore riding nose so you are not swelling it, therefore the 193 will chamber.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The boolit I did the muzzle check with was one straight from the mould, it had not been loaded nor sized and lubed. The nose of the 457125 boolit would not enter the bore at the muzzle. The deformation I've observed on my boolits are those boolits which I had sized and lubed, and not yet loaded into brass. I have been using a compression die to compress the powder and wad, the boolits seat with hardly any resistance, not enough to deform the boolits.

I didn't think I was ham handing the boolits when sizing and lubing, but I cast a bunch of 457125 and lubed some of them before my Sharps was delivered.

[John Allen]

Newer shilohs have a super tight chamber. My uncle got a new one and it took a little work to find the right combination and depth for seating.

[Don McDowell]

Did you buy that government bullet new or used? It almost sounds like that block may have been tinkered with for the diameter to be so large.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Clint Smith gave it to me over 2 years ago. He said he got it from Mike Ventrino.

[Don McDowell]

Hard telling then what that blocks story might be. But one thing is for certain, it should work alright in a trapdoor or Italian made rifle, but it's not going to do worth flip in a Shiloh.
If you think you want to shoot that style bullet, might twist off and order some from Cheycast and see if it does what you really want.
May also consider the Saeco 645 bullet it's an oft over looked bullet that preforms quite well in the 45-70 all the way to 1000+ yds.

[Lead pot]

If you feel you need to size that bullet use the Star sizer. The star sizer you can adjust the sizer so you can push the bullet through nose first and still put lube on the bullet. The nose will never be damaged pushing it through nose first. You can use a flat top punch or one that fits the nose either way it will work. without nose or base damaged.
It's always best to get a custom mould made that fits your bore and groove and pan or dip lube that bullet. It's best to get a proper bullet size than pushing it through a die to reduce the diameter and displacing the lead. You can't compress lead you can make it flow to a lesser space and that bullet will be a lesser diameter but still be out of balance.

[montana_charlie]

Clint Smith gave it to me over 2 years ago. He said he got it from Mike Ventrino.
If you haven't done so in the past, examine the faces of those mould blocks for anything that might keep them from closing completely.
Look them over with strong magnification, and drag a cotton ball around the cavitiy edges, to detect burrs.
Do this with the blocks disassembled from the handles, and look for light between the faces when mating the blocks by hand.

If all seems good, look for light with the handles installed.

It is possible for there to be interference between the handle metal and the mould metal which prevents tight closure ... but it's so slight you may not be aware of it.
When you hold the blocks together with one hand, and try to wiggle the handles with the other hand, there should be a tiny bit of play. If there is absolutely none, look for a bind somewhere.

If all looks good, you just have to assume that one of the previous owners 'modified' the mould to fit a particular rifle.


CM

[Don McDowell]

Another less expensive option to the star , is pan lube the bullets then go thru a Lee size die (providing you get lucky and the thing actually sizes the diameter it's supposed to)

[bigted]

I totally agree with Don and Charlie ... if the boolit nose as cast will not fit your rifles muzzle ... then either fixing a problem with your current mold/handle setup or ... buy a "new" set of molds that are the rite nose diameter to fit your bore diameter would seem to be your answer.

that style boolit has always been a performer for a bunch of folks however ya gotta be able to chamber it first ... [smilie=l:

I would highly recommend a couple fairly in-expensive mold makers and they are "Buff Arms" or "Accurate Molds". I have several molds from each ... tho the Buff Arms are a bit more expensive ... they are of high quality I find ... and ... the Accurate Molds come in a double ... if wanted... at a nice price and very well made for the price ... I cannot imagine he will continue with the cheaper pricing forever so I have been "hoarding" molds from them as an investment in my later shooting desires.

sounds like you have a huge "hint" on what the problem is concerning your new shooter ...[by the way ... very nice choice in a rifle judging from the photo's]...

I am still a bit in wonder tho at the why of the fact that the Winchester cases would chamber this boolit. seems strange as the same nose would have to fit whether it be loaded in WW cases or starline. neither situation should work if you can not get the boolit nose as cast into the muzzle of your rifle barrel. somewhat of a mystery for me ... unless I missed something somewhere along the line ... which is entirely possible ... :shock:

[montana_charlie]

I am still a bit in wonder tho at the why of the fact that the Winchester cases would chamber this boolit. seems strange as the same nose would have to fit whether it be loaded in WW cases or starline. neither situation should work if you can not get the boolit nose as cast into the muzzle of your rifle barrel. somewhat of a mystery for me ... unless I missed something somewhere along the line ... which is entirely possible ... :shock:
That is why I asked him to look for things that may keep the mould from closing. It may be that sometimes he gets it closed, and sometimes he doesn't. That could produce some bullets that will chamber, and others that won't.

CM

[ColColt]

I've cast many times and not have gotten the mold completely closed and instead of giving the familiar parting line I'd have what looked like two on one side. I knew what I had done and of course the diameter was a bit larger but no fear, a pass though the size die fixed that little problem. I contend if he had the proper size die that would give the diameter what was engraved on the die(.458, .459") he wouldn't have half the problems. No .461" bullet is going to fit that rifle.

[montana_charlie]

I contend if he had the proper size die that would give the diameter what was engraved on the die(.458, .459") he wouldn't have half the problems. No .461" bullet is going to fit that rifle.
The sizing die only reduces the drive bands.
The noses on his bullets are apparently too fat to go into the (.450") bore.

CM

[bigted]

Charlie ... I agree completely with only 1 exception ... he stated ...[I believe]... that the boolit would not chamber in starline cases but would in the Winchester cases. that is what threw me in the wrong direction. would be very peculiar if ... by coincidence he got the rite cast boolit with the Winchester brass and the wrong boolits with the starline cases. maybe I am in error with this conclusion ... wouldn't be the first time ,..:drinks:

I ...in my humble experience... agree with Col also in that my Shiloh barrel would never chamber/shoot a .461 inch boolit in the grooves. but with the nose not going into the muzzle bore then the point is moot until getting that nose section to fit the bore diameter of his Shiloh rifle of new build. my Winchesters and browning's as well as my Pietta sharps and of course the Marlin all will shoot and chamber those .461 boolits in fine shape ... as long as the bore/nose section will go into the bore of the rifle.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

After bigted reminded me that that these boolits did chamber in my 4 Winchester brass, last night I loaded a few in Winchester brass and they did not chamber. Puzzled I muzzle checked the boolits again and the boolits did not fit down the muzzle. I mic'd the nose and found them .450". Turning the boolits 45 degrees in the micrometer to check for a mould not closing all the way, the nose of the boolits still measured .450".

So why would some fit? I did another muzzle check, the boolit would not fit. I turned this boolit to line the seam of the boolit up with the groove of the bore and the boolits fit down the muzzle to the driving band. (!) I checked each boolit one at a time and loaded 11 cartridges in Starline brass and they all chamber. If the round fails to chamber I turn it about a quarter turn and it does chamber. All 11 cartridges I loaded last night with 457125 in Starline brass do now chamber.

Friday morning is my next range date.

[ColColt]

Jack, if I were you I'd get another mould for one thing and start afresh. Secondly, I would get a decent size die for either .458 or .459" and check that you are indeed getting that diameter when you size. The nose of that bullet should not be .450". Mine mics at .4475" and bands mic .459" unless you measure where the seams are side to side then it mics .460". Sizing to .459" to lube I have no trouble neck sizing Winchester or Starline(annealed) cases, expanding to .457" and seating the bullet to the middle of the top grease groove and running through the size die just enough to eliminate an flare that can hamper seating the cartridge in the chamber. They fall right in the chamber.

Some cases expand more than others within the same brand. I had that happen the other day with some 30-40 Krag cases made for the 40-70SS. Some would not extract the usual way and needed a "helping hand" to get them out while others extracted normally. Check the inside diameter of your cases, the ones that are difficult and the ones that seem to work properly and see what differences, if any, there are between the dimensions of those cases. In my case I feel relatively confident that the variation I have gotten may be due to the sizing and drawing process of making cases what they were not intended to be...30-40 Krag to 40-70SS. Just my own 2 cents.

[montana_charlie]

I turned this boolit to line the seam of the boolit up with the groove of the bore and the boolits fit down the muzzle to the driving band. (!)
Okay!
Finally, something 'logical' appears to present itself as the answer.
Now, that you know this, be careful about the amount of pressure you exert on the bullet nose when sizing/lubing.

Too much force there COULD change a snug fit into a tight fit ... or a tight fit into an impossible fit.

CM

[Lead pot]

It could be more than a sizing problem, it could also be a improperly adjusted seating die. If he has the case go into the crimp and the seating stem set too deep the crimp will hold the bullet and the stem is still pushing on the bullet deforming the bore section or the bullet is seated down on the wad with the stem set to deep. There are so many things he could be doing wrong and without clear answers it's just a guessing game.

The best thing to do is get someone that loads these rounds and have him walk him through this checking if the bullet out of the mould will fit the muzzle to the driving bands and from there it's just a matter of finding what is causing the nose to bump up.
With 71 replies the same questions come up and may repeated answer.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

After a day to ponder this, I am not comfortable sending these boolits down the tube. With the front portion of the boolit barely passing the muzzle fit test, I wonder what the results would be of the nose slumping up under pressure in the barrel. I considered lubing the front portion of the boolit but now I’m outside the manufacturer’s parameters of how that boolit is designed to be used.

I’ll be looking for a new mould, probably am going to buy some cast boolits to try first. I’ll be shooting boolits out of my 405 gr boolits for a while. I’ve got quite a few 525 gr boolits to throw back in the pot.

As far a sizing or a seating problem possibly being an issue, I compared sized and un-sized boolits both in the muzzle fit check, there was no difference. The mould drops boolits at 461” and they mic at .461” after sizing. I use a compression die to compress the powder and wad and then seat the boolit by hand. There is zero deformation of the boolit during seating. Nothing like a puzzler to make one really tighten up your procedures.

[Gunlaker]

If you are going to get a new mould I'd start with a .458" or .459" bullet. That way you don't have to worry about sizing again. Buffalo Arms makes some great moulds. If you don't want to shell out for one of their custom moulds I can tell you that my Shiloh also likes the RCBS 530gr bullet ( it actually comes out at about 550gr in 20:1 out of my mould ), and the Saeco 745 mould also works very well. Don has also recommended the lighter version of this mould to a number of people and I have no doubt it'd also work very well.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

With the exception of making weight for the Creedmoor matches in the Nationals at Raton, that Saeco 645 cast from 20-1 is about as close to a do it all bullet in the 45-70 as you'll find. We were able to swing that buffalo at 1100+ yds at Raton in those weird wind sheers that were there on Thursday evening, and it will shoot tiny little groups at 200 yds. (maybe closer but there is little reason for us to shoot at the close range so haven't tried it, don't even know if the sights will go that low)

[MT Chambers]

Note also that a very tight fit of the bullet into the case at the bullet seating stage can bump up the front portion of the bullet if it's very soft, folks may also damage bullet or "bump it up" when seating bullet if it compresses powder without the operator being aware of it.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm shopping for moulds, I'm favoring a custom mould from Buffalo Arms. My bore is .4585" - 459" and I'm considering casting the chamber with Cerrosafe.

The weekend range report with the 405 gr boolits isn't complete. My wife had a biopsy on Friday, I'd appreciate prayers all will come back good news for her. Then my son's friends step dad's funeral services took most of Saturday. By the time I got out to the range it was getting dark, the wind and rain was howling, note to self: Use canvas for targets. Paper stapled to a wood target stands in the rain falls off after only a few minutes. Hopefully today will be another day. The range has Hunter Sight In until 4:30 PM.

[RMulhern]

Seems outstandingly amazing the problems some folks have with something that's so simple!!

[concho]

What does your bore measure? First Sentence top of page 1 , Try reading everything then ask questions , Country Gent .

[country gent]

Sorry Concho my mistake Ill sit out and let it go on its own now.

[bigted]

I must say that I have not read the measurements of your rifle. have you slugged it and measured the cases yet? these measurements will tell volumes for the needed information that everybody is trying to help with. no need to do a chamber cast ...[altho this IS the best method to a very accurate measurement]... with the simple method of just pounding a pure lead slug down the greased barrel from the muzzle ... and then just measure the grooves and bore diameter ... then simply ,,, slightly bell the unsized case mouth so an accurate measurement of the mouth/neck area will be a simple measurement of the chamber needs of the throat/chamber end of your rifle.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The diameter of the bore measurements taken by my slugging the bore before I shot it and were were posted in the OP. My most recent question was related to the recommendations from others as to the diameter of the new mould I'd order from Buffalo Arms. I think the bore diameter is the measurement that is critical when selecting a new mould rather than the case mouth. Buffalo Arms offers moulds of the same boolit design in different diameters at .001's of an inch, i.e. 460", .459", .458".

Thanks for all the help guys, bigted, Montana Charlie, ColColt. Getting that oversized nose dimensions in my 457125 as the fly in the ointment figured out 12 posts ago was great. Saved me a lot of time effort.

Were moving on..

[ColColt]

Jack-I'm not sure what bullets you're looking at but BACO doesn't offer different diameters for the same mould. They have different bullet designs in different weights with different diameters but not the same design and weight. Or, they'll show the same bullet designed differently, same weight and diameter.

For instance, there's one 510 gr Creedmoor bullet that's .459", single cavity and another similar one same weight but different design same diameter. One has a tapered front band and one doesn't-your choice. That bullet is not offered in any other diameter. They do offer a similar design with a different diameter but a different weight if that's what you mean.

You should be well served with a .459" whatever style you choose. If I were you I think I'd try the NEI moulds as well. Specifically the Paul Jones Creedmoore 458-540 #349F. If I didn't have four other 45 moulds that would be the one I'd pick.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[montana_charlie]

You should be well served with a .459" whatever style you choose. If I were you I think I'd try the NEI moulds as well. Specifically the Paul Jones Creedmoore 458-540 #349F.
That reminds me ... I have an NEi #349F mould that I don't use anymore. It casts a .460" bullet in 20:1 alloy. But, for some reason, the bullet it throws is closer to 560 grains than 540.
It was new when I got it and I have cast two ... maybe three ... hundred bullets with it.
It has not been modified in any way.

PM me if you are interested.

CM

[Don McDowell]

The diameter of the bore measurements taken by my slugging the bore before I shot it and were were posted in the OP. My most recent question was related to the recommendations from others as to the diameter of the new mould I'd order from Buffalo Arms. I think the bore diameter is the measurement that is critical when selecting a new mould rather than the case mouth. Buffalo Arms offers moulds of the same boolit design in different diameters at .001's of an inch, i.e. 460", .459", .458".

Thanks for all the help guys, bigted, Montana Charlie, ColColt. Getting that oversized nose dimensions in my 457125 as the fly in the ointment figured out 12 posts ago was great. Saved me a lot of time effort.

Were moving on..

What are you planning to do with your bullet? BACO's 520 gr money bullet shoots well thru both my Shiloh and the Winchester, but it's amazing how much less felt recoil you'll get when shooting the 480 gr bullets, they offer a 480 gr bullet that looks very much like the saeco 645. I have many times comtemplated their 510 gr creedmoor bullet, as that weight is about ideal in the 45-70, and I like the looks of the bullet.
My Shiloh likes the 458 diameter bullets,and gets along ok with 459.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Don, I hope to have a 1,000 yard boolit for competition. Right now I've got a 405 gr boolit that is performing as well as any boolit I could hope to have at my range which is 200 yards, they open the range up to 500 yards once a month. I bought the Sharps for those opportunities which come up every now and then to shoot 1,000 yards. So I'm looking for an appropriate boolit.

My Sharps has the heavy barrel and I swear I experience zero recoil with the 405 gr boolit and 68 gr of FFg at 1375 fps.

[Don McDowell]

There's a lot of nonsense on the Inet about recoil and the 45-70...Always get a chuckle out of folks going on about heavy recoil, when there's women and kids just about every weekend hurling 100 or more rounds down range in various matches around the country.
If you look even casually at what the old dead guys shot back in the day, it is very seldom they ever used a bullet over 500 grs unless the powder charge started exceeding 105 grs. Fast forward to today, and many 45-70 shooters have discovered that bullets over 510 or 20 grs may just be counter productive when the ranges start to get long, unless they are shooting heavy charges of 3f or similar powder and throwing the velocity up into 45-90/100 territory,or having their rifle rebarreled with 16 twist barrels.
The trouble with working up a load for 1000 yd shooting without being able to test it at 1000 is that it's not uncommon for a load to shoot well out to 6 or 800 yds, but go clear to pot by the time it hits 900 let alone 1000.Never mind the attention to detail it takes from the shooter concerning grip, stock placement, rest height, breathing control, and staying hydrated to keep the eyes working properly to make a 1000 yd shot with these rifles. Even a sloppy sight might not start showing you any affects until you hit the 500 yd line.
I'ld recommend that in place of playing the mould of the week game, you invest some money in already cast bullets from known moulds and do as much testing as possible to find the bullet you and your rifle think you can live with, then buy a set of blocks and the same certified alloy as that bullet.