How I turned a perfectly good revolver into a giant paper weight

[Animal]

Hey guys,

I'm writing this with the intention of getting some info out to the public that might help avoid the destruction of a beloved gun and injury or death of the shooter.
I cancelled a Winchester 296/cast RNFP load at the last minute when I realized that I didn't have published data specific to the boolit that I had. I decided to try the following instead. All my brass was primed by the time I switched loads, that is why I have magnum primers in the following.

My firearm: Taurus M66 .357 magnum 4in barrel 7 round

My load data: 3.7gr IMR PB, Hornaday 158gr XTP, Virgin Starline brass trimmed to 1.278, C.O.L. 1.583, CCI 550 and heavy roll crimp (3/4 turn on Lee 3rd die).

My load data came from Hodgdons most recent magazine. It stated that 3.7 to 4.9 grains was and acceptable range.

I meticulously trimmed brass, scrutinized my charges, measured every COL and inspected each crimp. I've only been reloading for almost a year and I feel that I've gotten pretty anal about load development.

I worked up seven rounds for each two tenths of a grain that I increased the load. I took my 49 rounds to my range, put up my target and commenced to testing out my new loads. I knew these loads would be extremely light compared to what I normally shoot, but I wanted to see if this would be a good target load, or SD load for my wife at some point.

I cocked the hammer and took the first shot. The round hit just southeast of the bull. I could barely hear the gun fire and I definitely didn't feel the round go off. This load felt lighter than some light .38spl that I've loaded in the past. In fact, I'm pretty sure I had a Red Rider BB gun that had a kick more stout than that round.

I didn't think too much of it and I continued to take the next shot. Same feel, same quiet "tap", only I didn't see where I even hit the paper. I continued on with the last 5 rounds... I didn't see anymore holes in the target. I thought maybe all my shots grouped tightly in the bullseye and that is why my weak eyes couldn't see them.

I ejected my spent brass, inspected the primers and cases, set the gun down and proceeded to inspect my shots and put up the next target for the next rounds. I couldn't believe what I saw, only one round hit paper. I was shooting from 15 yards, so this was perplexing to me. I set up the next target and decided that these rounds just aren't accurate. I figured I'd have to get to the higher end of the charge before they would group. I've noticed this as a characteristic of some of my loads.

Once again I pulled back the hammer, pulled the trigger and failed to see a hole on paper. The shot was slightly more audible, but not by much. Just like the first load, this load had zero felt recoil. Pulling the trigger had about the same recoil as hitting the volume button my TV remote! I was getting a little discouraged and I haven't even gotten to my 4.1 grain loads yet. I wasn't too optimistic about any part of this load.

I raised up for a second shot, pulled the hammer and... the hammer was stuck. I couldn't chamber the second round. I didn't think it was possible that these bullets could have jumped crimp. I had a heavy crimp and no felt recoil. I attempted to eject the cylinder to see what had happened but the cylinder was stuck. I thought to myself that that round must have somehow gotten stuck between the throat and the forcing cone. I did the unthinkable and looked down the barrel of my loaded .357. There was a bullet in the bore. It seated itself approximately 3/4 of an inch from the very end of the bore. I've heard about this happening but it hasn't happened to me yet. I ended my shooting session and called a buddy of mine that has a little experience with this sort of thing. He advised me to try to gently tap the bullet back down the barrel and into the case.

I removed the hammer and trigger mechanism to prevent any possibility of an accidental fire. I was unsuccessful in tapping the bullet down the bore. Each tap just caused the hollow-point to expand and tighten itself in the bore. I sat down and thought about what happened. My shots weren't just lousy aimed shots, those bullets never left the barrel! My gun had 7 Hornaday 158 grain XTP hollow-points lined up in the barrel and packed tighter than sardines in a can! To confirm that this was the case, I went back to the range and crawled on my hands and knees in the grass searching for bullets that may have just dropped out of the barrel. Not a single bullet was found.

Now I'm perplexed. How does one manage to jam bullets/boolits in a barrel and not experience any recoil, excessive sound or any other warning signs? I always thought that firing a round into another stuck round would produce catastrophic results, how is it that my gun appears to be unscathed? Where did the pressure from the powder ignition go? Not a single round fired felt ANY different than the first round that functioned properly.

I slugged the bore and throats earlier this year and found that my bore measured a .354. I was told that it is a bit undersized but shouldn't be a problem. I've mostly used cast boolits and haven't had any problem. I've used these XTP bullets with HP38 and H110 with great results. I've been racking my brain trying think of something I failed to do properly, but I can't come up with anything except my barrel may have been too tight for the low velocity jacketed bullet. Or, somehow my primers were too hot for the load. I really can't come up with anything that I can condemn as the cause of failure, only possibilities.

If my bore dimensions were too small for the round I loaded, then I hope that this post will help others to avoid a very dangerous situation. I am pretty embarrassed about this load because I know that somehow, some way, whatever went wrong has to do with a choice that I made somewhere along the line. Perhaps I didn't take my bore size serious enough. Or perhaps I should have sucked up the extra work and prepared unprimed brass with non magnum primers. I really wouldn't have thought that that would make this huge of a difference, but perhaps I didn't take that as serious as I should have.

Maybe some of you have had an experience like this and can share some insight of what may have went wrong. Whether the bore size was at fault or the primer was at fault, at the end of the day it was still my load in my gun and I have to take responsibility for that and appreciate that I still have all my fingers.

The irony in this experience is that I cancelled a load just as I was ready to start charging the shells because I feared a dangerous situation would come about due to the fact that I didn't feel the data I had was suitable for the boolit I chose. I found different data that I had the powder and bullets for and approached it with comfort in knowing I had solid data. I would never have expected this to happen.

As of now the XTP bullets are still lodged in the barrel and there are six live rounds in the cylinder. I can't get the cylinder open. I've thought about giving it to a gunsmith to fix, but I think I have just lost confidence in that firearm ever being a 'good gun' again. I had sent it off to Taurus earlier this year because it kept shaving jackets off bullets on the left side of the forcing cone. They fixed that problem but I don't feel comfortable with putting my safety in that firearm any more. Taurus makes fine revolvers and has a good warranty, but once you have a bad experience with a firearm... well, it might not be trustworthy. It is a hard pill to swallow.

I hope this information will help someone. Thanks

[mikeym1a]

I read a post here recently about customer service regarding Taurus. They used to have a good name, but from what I've read, not so anymore. I presume this is a revolter. In that case, take it to a trusted gunsmith, and have him remove the barrel. Perhaps he could put it in a lathe, and carefully bore through the stuck projectiles, and then try and get the rest out. OR, it might be more cost effective to get another barrel and have it installed. If this is a new gun, I don't think Taurus will warranty this. Sorry.

[Spawn-Inc]

that really sucks, and i've had 10 rounds or more that were under powered and ended up with a bullet stuck in the barrel. i was able to hammer them out every time. i have a smith 586 that has seen 4 stuck bullets, and it wasn't fun removing the bullets let me tell you!

i've also had a barrel bulged due to a stuck bullet in my 1911 in 45acp. i got a huge lot of various bullets so i loaded up 100 rounds to test out. i fired my 98th round and the brass ejected, so i fired the next round and the slide locked back. i went to load another mag and let the slide go, but it wouldn't move. $100 later, lesson learned.

because of that, if i don't see a bullet hit the target and there was very little recoil or i'm testing new loads i always check the barrel.


i'm not exactly sure how i would solve the problem you have, i think it would involve carefully drilling the bullets out, but i suspect that would wreck the bore.

[Animal]

Mikey, Taurus only likes factory ammo. They would know I put handloads in it because of the headstamp on the brass. It sucks, but thats what they do.

[nagantguy]

Very detailed post, thanks for sharing. Count your self one Lucky fellow, I assumed a gun would come apart when something like this happened. I've only ever dealt with three stuck bullets, only once was there a live round in chamber and I was unable to unload and clear the fire arm. I took the stock and scope off and gave the whole thing a dunk in the acid bath. Had to re blue but other wise it was fine, still my truck gun. However in none of those cases was another bullet fired behind the stuck one.

[Tim357]

My guess is, between the smallish barrel dimensions, the light powder charge, and the jacketed bullet, there was not enough pressure to launch the second bullet from the bore. Using lead boolits there would be less bore friction, so the same load would probably have been suitable, and they probably would have hit the paper.

[joesig]

Things happen sometimes. If you didn't bulge the barrel, it will be just fine.

I would suggest you use a deck screw or better, a pilot hole and small lag bolt (1/4") with a stack of washers and extract one bullet at a time until it the barrel is clear. Lead is very "gummy" and grabby so a dull bit would be better. A drill bit the size of the screw shank should allow the threads to bite but not expand the bullet in the bore. Lube the screw with a good case lube and screw it in and pop the bullets out like a cork screw.

P.S. you can go up to 5/16 if you strip the 1/4 lag. if you break the deck screw (tough but not impossible) you can use some brake tubing sharpened like a small hole saw to drill around the screw.

While i would NOT suggest drilling the slugs out, wrapping some tape around the drill to act as a buffer/guide.

The EPA frowned upon way would be to use mercury to dissolve the lead.

[country gent]

A gunsmith will be able to do something for you, with a light load there amy be no real damage to the barrel at this point. If th cylinder opend to load then froze did you fire one round from the cylinder? I would stand muzze up and soak a little kroil down the barrel thenTake to a good gunsmith and be honest telling him what you have and let him decide the best route to go. Hes the professional. Im betting at this point it can be saved. He may ave to pull the barrel and use an arbor press or possibly drill a hole to relive pressure. The kroil will lubricate and help to allow the bullets to slide.

[454PB]

I was only about 1/3 of the way through the post and already knew what was coming. I had a similar experience firing somebody else's .38 Special handloads a while back. Luckily, I stopped at the first squib, because I've had others. I was able to drive the stuck bullet from the barrel and no damage was done. I disassembled the rest of the loaded rounds and found that the guy had used a very light load of unique behind some 110 grain JHPs.....light enough that there wasn't enough pressure to push them through the barrel.

Never, ever fire a subsequent round if you don't see evidence that the bullet (or boolit) exited the barrel!

This has nothing to do with Taurus quality, it could have happened with any gun.

I'm sure a gunsmith can return it to service, but he's not going to like you bringing it in with a loaded cylinder. Any chance you can removed the screw on the right side of the frame and remove the entire cylinder?

[mikeym1a]

Mikey, Taurus only likes factory ammo. They would know I put handloads in it because of the headstamp on the brass. It sucks, but thats what they do.
From what I was reading on that other post, they don't even like to fix their own screw-ups. And, yeah, they would be able to tell it was not factory loads. Most of the gun companies seem to prefer that you use only factory ammo. Makes sense from their point of view. We with older guns don't worry about it. We just worry how we are going to pay to get our screw-ups fixed!! I know it will be an added expense, but the smith could probably tune up you Taurus while he/she has it apart. (I presume there are female gunsmiths, although I've never met one.) That's as good an excuse as any to get it detailed.....[smilie=1:

[wv109323]

I would say the barrel is toast. A gunsmith may be able to remove the barrel. The barrel is probably swelled and no good. I would look closely at the frame for cracks or warpage.

[Norbrat]

The cylinder likely won't open because there is a bullet jammed aganst the last (first?) bullet in the forcing cone in barrel, straddling the cylinder gap. That would make it REAL difficult or impossible to remove the cylinder.

Sure sounds like the best option is to unscrew the barrel.



Now I'm perplexed. How does one manage to jam bullets/boolits in a barrel and not experience any recoil, excessive sound or any other warning signs? I always thought that firing a round into another stuck round would produce catastrophic results, how is it that my gun appears to be unscathed? Where did the pressure from the powder ignition go? Not a single round fired felt ANY different than the first round that functioned properly.


Most of a gun's felt recoil is when the bullet and gases leave the muzzle.

As a revolver has a cylinder gap, this allowed the pressure to dissipate before it could blow up the barrel. You were lucky you were using a low powered round; a heavier load would have produced much higher pressure much more quickly for cylinder gap "safety valve" to have worked.

Be grateful the Taurus was built strong enough to withstand this. If you can get it repaired, you should have no concerns about the "trustworthiness" of the gun.

[Spawn-Inc]

Things happen sometimes. If you didn't bulge the barrel, it will be just fine.

I would suggest you use a deck screw or better, a pilot hole and small lag bolt (1/4") with a stack of washers and extract one bullet at a time until it the barrel is clear. Lead is very "gummy" and grabby so a dull bit would be better. A drill bit the size of the screw shank should allow the threads to bite but not expand the bullet in the bore. Lube the screw with a good case lube and screw it in and pop the bullets out like a cork screw.

P.S. you can go up to 5/16 if you strip the 1/4 lag. if you break the deck screw (tough but not impossible) you can use some brake tubing sharpened like a small hole saw to drill around the screw.

While i would NOT suggest drilling the slugs out, wrapping some tape around the drill to act as a buffer/guide.

The EPA frowned upon way would be to use mercury to dissolve the lead.

genius! much better then drilling it out.

[Char-Gar]

The firearm or it's maker bear no responsibility or fault in this matter. The fault is 100% on the shooter.

If a round does not sound right or feel right, STOP RIGHT THEN, examine the bore for stuck bullets or other foreign object. If you find something, do not fire another round, but take that lot of ammo home and break it down.!!!!!!!!

This is basic shooting 101, like water runs down hill or the sun rises in the east! I have been handloading since 1958 and this is still my rule. You never get so much experience that it exempt you from common sense and basic safety.

If I had my way, I would take his guys guns away, make him run laps, do pushups, write on the blackboard or something until I was certain he had learned his lesson. Then I would give him his guns back. If he pulled another bone headed stunt I would take them away for good.

Does this sound harsh and judgmental? Good, I intended it to be! I can live with it, if folks think I am mean and don't invite me to their next birthday party. Not only can guns be trashed, but people hurt when we stop thinking when we shoot.

[MattOrgan]

This is a good warning about reloading and paying attention when you fire reloads. Guns, components, and conditions all vary from published data. The revolver gave plenty of warnings that something was amiss; but did not come apart even when firing 6 additional rounds into a total bore obstruction. Pretty amazing that the gun held it, a testament to Taurus. The problem now is removing all the bullets from a loaded revolver. Can't be mailed, hopefully there is a good gunsmith close by who can deal with this properly and inspect the revolver for any damage. Please keep us updated.

[RickinTN]

As a revolver has a cylinder gap, this allowed the pressure to dissipate before it could blow up the barrel. You were lucky you were using a low powered round; a heavier load would have produced much higher pressure much more quickly for cylinder gap "safety valve" to have worked.

If his load had enough pressure he wouldn't have his current problem. The bullets would have exited the barrel!

[Lead Fred]

Friends dont let friends buy Tor-asses.

Have not found one yet that held together.

We put a 44 mag out of battery with mild rounds

[zxcvbob]

Don't send it to Taurus, it's not worth the headaches, and you don't want them working on it anyway. A gunsmith should be able to get them out, and check to make sure the gun is still safe. It *might* have a bulged barrel but probably not; even if it does it might still shoot OK.

Here's a .357 Magnum load for you: 8.0 grains of Herco, any small primer (small pistol works best), and a 158 grain SWC or RNFP boolit cast from hard lead. Since your gun has an extra tight bore, back off to about 7 or 7.5 grains.

[Norbrat]

As a revolver has a cylinder gap, this allowed the pressure to dissipate before it could blow up the barrel. You were lucky you were using a low powered round; a heavier load would have produced much higher pressure much more quickly for cylinder gap "safety valve" to have worked.

If his load had enough pressure he wouldn't have his current problem. The bullets would have exited the barrel!

True, assuming the previous round had (enough) powder in it.

Been there, done that! Had a bunch of squibs due to powder thrower not working as expected, but realised as soon as it happened that I had one stuck in the barrel , so I stopped shooting.

[Animal]

The firearm or it's maker bear no responsibility or fault in this matter. The fault is 100% on the shooter.

If a round does not sound right or feel right, STOP RIGHT THEN, examine the bore for stuck bullets or other foreign object. If you find something, do not fire another round, but take that lot of ammo home and break it down.!!!!!!!!

This is basic shooting 101, like water runs down hill or the sun rises in the east! I have been handloading since 1958 and this is still my rule. You never get so much experience that it exempt you from common sense and basic safety.

If I had my way, I would take his guys guns away, make him run laps, do pushups, write on the blackboard or something until I was certain he had learned his lesson. Then I would give him his guns back. If he pulled another bone headed stunt I would take them away for good.

Does this sound harsh and judgmental? Good, I intended it to be! I can live with it, if folks think I am mean and don't invite me to their next birthday party. Not only can guns be trashed, but people hurt when we stop thinking when we shoot.

Char-gar, if you would have read the whole thread you would have seen that you sound like a complete idiot. I concluded that the responsibility of this issue was 100% my fault. "my load, my gun, my responsibility." If you aren't ashamed of yourself, you should be.

I assume you didn't bother to read this part either " I am pretty embarrassed about this load because I know that somehow, some way, whatever went wrong has to do with a choice that I made somewhere along the line. Perhaps I didn't take my bore size serious enough."

Feel free to run laps

[Animal]

Guys thanks for all your feedback. I've done a lot of thinking and don't feel that putting money into the gun is going to be good enough for me to fee comfortable with it. I'm going to leave it apart and lock it away.
I've really been interested in getting a Glock. I'll probably just save some bucks and get the Glock 21 .45acp. My LGS has really good deals on Glock for military personel and law enforcement.
I still have my trusty Ruger SRH. I love my wheel guns, I can't NOT have one.

[nekshot]

Animal, as soon as you mentioned something was differant I thought of a boolit in barrel. I know this can be frustrating and I applaud you for sharing your expierence so we all can learn, but I really doubt the gun is any the worse for it. I would clear the barrel and if all looks good at least shoot 38's in it if you don't trust 357's. Just my thoughts on this.

[aspangler]

Had this happen to a friend. S&W Mod.10 with 6 inch barrel. Not my loads but someone gave him some squibs. His grandson shot them and lodged 6 in the barrel and one in the cylinder/ forcing cone. Locked the cylinder just as yours. I took it to the gunsmith that I work with (aka apprenticed ) and it took us almost an hour and a half to get them out. Barrel was fine so no problems. If you don't want to fix it and no longer want it, PM me and maybe we could do a deal. My gunsmith will do a transfer from an individual. Let me know but a good gunsmith can fix that and it shouldn't cost too much.

[Char-Gar]

Guys thanks for all your feedback. I've done a lot of thinking and don't feel that putting money into the gun is going to be good enough for me to fee comfortable with it. I'm going to leave it apart and lock it away.
I've really been interested in getting a Glock. I'll probably just save some bucks and get the Glock 21 .45acp. My LGS has really good deals on Glock for military personel and law enforcement.
I still have my trusty Ruger SRH. I love my wheel guns, I can't NOT have one.

Glock hint! If you pull the trigger and the slide does not fully go to the rear, eject the empty case and load another round into the chamber from the magazine, you probably should check to see if there is a bullet stuck in the barrel. If there is, don't continue to fire the pistol.

[oscarflytyer]

somewhere there is a (youtube) video of a cpl guys doing exactly what you did - on purpose. Wanted to see what would happen. And like you, they stuck multiple projectiles in the bbl, stacked up. IIRC it was the 3rd or 4th one, 357(?) full house load, before the revolver gave up the ghost catastrophically.

Also saw where a cpl guys intentionally tried to see just what a Mosin Nagant would handle, way over-pressure load wise, before IT gave up the ghost. It was crazy... thing shot something like 25 grains of something like 2400 pistol powder or something equally crazy.

Both of these were very impressive. Fortunately for you, sounds like only the gun has issues...

[rockrat]

A "smith" should be able to make a bushing to go in the barrel with a hole thru the center to pilot a drill bit, to drill a hole thru the bullets. Then maybe use the screw method to pull the bullets. Its what I would do if it was my gun. Maybe use threaded rod, coarse thread, and use some washers/nuts to pull the bullets. Barrel may or may not be bulged.

Don't think you could send it to Taurus to be fixed, with the live rounds still in the cylinder. Don't think a shipper would take it.

I would think the gun would be fine, if the barrel isn't bulged.

[w5pv]

All the above is the reason I think squibs are more dangerous than over charges.If recoil ,sound or bullet print doesn't show on paper is reason to check things out.I was working up load the other day that act right but the bullet had left the barrel so I went to the next level.I don't care for mouse fart loads,there is too much that can go wrong with them.If a gun has too much recoil or muzzle blast go to a smaller weapon.Just be careful when reloading and double check yourself often.

[Hamish]

Animal, send a PM to goodsteel, not very long ago he posted pictures of a single action, same situation. Maybe he can save it, maybe not.

[mroliver77]

I think Animal owes Char-Gar an apology! He was very gentle with you! After reading your other posts I wanted to ream you good as I seen you were not a capable loader! I am not psychic but seen something bad a commin! This is very serious business and somebody could have been hurt or worse!

You need to reread everything about loading! Then think about it a lot!
Jay

[Char-Gar]

Char-gar, if you would have read the whole thread you would have seen that you sound like a complete idiot. I concluded that the responsibility of this issue was 100% my fault. "my load, my gun, my responsibility." If you aren't ashamed of yourself, you should be.

I assume you didn't bother to read this part either " I am pretty embarrassed about this load because I know that somehow, some way, whatever went wrong has to do with a choice that I made somewhere along the line. Perhaps I didn't take my bore size serious enough."

Feel free to run laps

Animal...When I got serious about shooting I fell in with a bunch of grown men who took me under their wing. I was about 14 at the time. These men has been loading and shooting since the 20's and 30's and many of them shot in the National Matches at Camp Perry every year. I was allowed to hang out with them, learn, watch and ask questions respectfully. But none of the would tolerate any stupidity or carelessness when it came to firearms. They would jerk me up short in a New York minute when I pulled a bone headed stunt and not be very gentle about it.

I wanted their respect and most of all I wanted to go to Camp Perry with them and they were not going to take me as long as I was likely to be an embarrassment to them. I learned to take the rough correction and learned much from it.

In due time, I went to Camp Perry with them and got to rub shoulders with the likes of Elmer Keith, Al Barr and all of the greats in the US shooting world. I could stand up tall and shoot with these folks, because the local guys has knocked the "doofus" out of me before I got there. I will be eternally grateful to this bunch of men who not only taught me how to shoot, but how to be a man with other men.

In the company of men, such things were common and expected. I guess today, that is not a regular thing. Folks want to be stroked, forgiven and understood. Everybody gets a trophy for participation. Their feelings are so fragile they can't bear up to being in the company of men who know more than they do and have a low tolerance for foolishness.

I anticipated you would not take my correction in a positive way, for very few folks do these days. However, it was not done to be mean, but to help in your growth as a shooter and handloader. Take it anyway you wish. Cross me off your Christmas card list, and don't invite me to your Birthday Party if you wish. I won't be crushed.

You need to toughen up a little Animal. You would last about as long as spit on a hot griddle on a Texas ranch. When you got your feathers ruffled, and whined about rough treatment, the cowboys would just pour it on, until you grew up or removed yourself from the ranch. If you couldn't be a man and make a hand, you were not welcome. By the time I got to my cowboy days I could be and do both.

I found this thread interesting as everybody rushed to your aid, with suggestions on how to fix your pistol when it is your head that needs to be fixed.

[220]

This isn't just a reload problem, here in Aus we have been seeing a number of 17HMR rifles damaged by people having a projectile lodge in the barrel and then loading and firing another shot.
I've personally had a projectile only make it about 2" down the barrel in a HMR but stopped looked found the problem fixed it and continued to shoot without drama.
If a shot doesn't sound right please stop and check thing out before you continue to shoot.

[MBTcustom]

Animal, there is nothing wrong with your gun. It's a piece of machinery that was misused, and now it will be put away in an unsafe condition. That is the last of a long string of bad conclusions.
First of all, let me say that you are not alone. Another member made the same mistake a few months ago with his revolver. He did bulge his barrel in multiple places and had nine boolits and three bullets stacked up in there. Observe what your barrel looks like on the inside:
81747
Fortunately, I was able to save his gun, and it is back with him now and running young.

If you care for some advice, I have a few pieces for you.
First of all your barrel diameter. A smaller bore will not stick bullets. It will increase noise, pressure, felt recoil, and bullet speed.
Second, If you don't own some actual reloading books, you should go buy some and double check your steps (not that I saw anything wrong with your described process) What Chargar was trying to say is that you should realize the fact that it was nothing the gun did that landed you in this situation, and before you pull the handle on another reloading press, you should make sure you understand what happened. Pull the remaining cartridges and weigh them out to see what you did! throw some more charges and see if they are correct! check your scale to make sure it was set correctly! Just putting the gun away is not going to solve anything, and you will be doomed to make the same mistake with your new glock or what ever you end up with. I've got news for you: it can happen to a glock too!
81748
Chargar was attempting to save your life, because the steps you have taken so far are irresponsible and inadequate. (sorry if that hurts your feelings, but the good news is there is a cure!).
Now, it is possible that you didn't destroy your pistol, and if you're just going to put it away, I would like to buy it from you (at a significant discount of course) because it can be repaired and put to good use.
If you prefer to keep it, it is your responsibility to have it repaired. Either figure out how to do it yourself, or take it to a gunsmith in your area. Setting it aside in it's present condition is unsafe. (Just my humble opinion)

No one here is trying to belittle you in any way. We want to prevent people from making horrible mistakes, and encourage them to continue to become better reloaders. Part of that is pointing out what is wrong sometimes.
After all, we are all just experts in training.

[Animal]

Animal...When I got serious about shooting I fell in with a bunch of grown men who took me under their wing. I was about 14 at the time. These men has been loading and shooting since the 20's and 30's and many of them shot in the National Matches at Camp Perry every year. I was allowed to hang out with them, learn, watch and ask questions respectfully. But none of the would tolerate any stupidity or carelessness when it came to firearms. They would jerk me up short in a New York minute when I pulled a bone headed stunt and not be very gentle about it.

I wanted their respect and most of all I wanted to go to Camp Perry with them and they were not going to take me as long as I was likely to be an embarrassment to them. I learned to take the rough correction and learned much from it.

In due time, I went to Camp Perry with them and got to rub shoulders with the likes of Elmer Keith, Al Barr and all of the greats in the US shooting world. I could stand up tall and shoot with these folks, because the local guys has knocked the "doofus" out of me before I got there. I will be eternally grateful to this bunch of men who not only taught me how to shoot, but how to be a man with other men.

In the company of men, such things were common and expected. I guess today, that is not a regular thing. Folks want to be stroked, forgiven and understood. Everybody gets a trophy for participation. Their feelings are so fragile they can't bear up to being in the company of men who know more than they do and have a low tolerance for foolishness.

I anticipated you would not take my correction in a positive way, for very few folks do these days. However, it was not done to be mean, but to help in your growth as a shooter and handloader. Take it anyway you wish. Cross me off your Christmas card list, and don't invite me to your Birthday Party if you wish. I won't be crushed.

You need to toughen up a little Animal. You would last about as long as spit on a hot griddle on a Texas ranch. When you got your feathers ruffled, and whined about rough treatment, the cowboys would just pour it on, until you grew up or removed yourself from the ranch. If you couldn't be a man and make a hand, you were not welcome. By the time I got to my cowboy days I could be and do both.

I found this thread interesting as everybody rushed to your aid, with suggestions on how to fix your pistol when it is your head that needs to be fixed.

I appreciate your comment and envy the background and support you had. This is something that I have gotten into alone. I don't have anyone that can stop by and show me a thing or two. I've read my Lee manual and several articles online. I've gotten a lot of great help from the guys on this site and a few other online sources.

I've got nothing against a good *** kicking when needed, but I took your comment under the impression that you assumed I took no responsibility for what had happened. Was what I did dumb and uneducated? well, hine sight is 20/20. I've learned that not every load that is published is 'safe' under all circumstances. I knew I had some barrel restrictions before I made that load. Unfortunately it never crossed my mind that it would be a problem until it happened. Makes perfect since to me now. If I'm getting my tail chewed for doing something stupid, I can take that. I wouldn't have posted this to the public otherwise... I won't take the same chewing for "not taking responsibility". I own that buggered up barrel like rice owns white. I hate that a mistake like that happened, but now I know... low velocity jacketed bullets and undersized barrels don't mix!

Austin

[MBTcustom]

If you are shooting so slow that the bullets are getting stuck in your barrel, it's not the barrel's fault. If you were anywhere near the minimum load for that cartridge, you would be printing paper even if your barrel was .010 undersize. Something is wrong with your load not the barrel.

[303Guy]

A good online loading manual is the Hodgdon one. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp. From there you can go to their loading manual.

My understanding is light loads and jacketed's don't go together. Having a look at load data one can see the difference just different bullets can make to pressure and velocity. I have had bullets stopping in the barrel (22 hornet rifle). Once they cooled down they basically just dropped out with a light push. That was due to jacket heating and expansion. A different bullet would have shot just fine. Even so, I've decided lighter loads are for cast only.

[Scharfschuetze]

At one time a fairly advanced US Navy small arms collector at the Washington Arms Collector's club had a Victory Model S&W with its barrel fully plugged with a couple of cylinders of GI FMJ 38 Special bullets. The barrel had a groove milled out length wise (similar to Goodsteel's post above) by an armorer to display the projos in the barrel. Apparently this was done to produce a training aid sometime after the revolver had seized up.

[Win94ae]

I think Animal owes Char-Gar an apology! He was very gentle with you! After reading your other posts I wanted to ream you good as I seen you were not a capable loader! I am not psychic but seen something bad a commin! This is very serious business and somebody could have been hurt or worse!

You need to reread everything about loading! Then think about it a lot!
Jay

I think so too.

Sure he blamed himself, kind of...

"I've been racking my brain trying think of something I failed to do properly, but I can't come up with anything..."
"...except my barrel may have been too tight for the low velocity jacketed bullet...."
"... Or, somehow my primers were too hot for the load...."
"...I really can't come up with anything that I can condemn as the cause of failure, only possibilities...."

"If my bore dimensions were too small for the round I loaded, then I hope that this post will help others to avoid a very dangerous situation...."
Here he almost condemns himself.
...I am pretty embarrassed about this load because I know that somehow, some way, whatever went wrong has to do with a choice that I made somewhere along the line..."

Then he blames it on his gun again.
"...Perhaps I didn't take my bore size serious enough..."

Now the primers.
"...Or perhaps I should have sucked up the extra work and prepared unprimed brass with non magnum primers...."
"...I really wouldn't have thought that that would make this huge of a difference, but perhaps I didn't take that as serious as I should have..."
And you still aren't.

Even the sentence he tried to lay blame on himself, he comes up with the bore size and primers.
"...Whether the bore size was at fault or the primer was at fault, at the end of the day it was still my load in my gun and I have to take responsibility for that and appreciate that I still have all my fingers..."

"Char-gar, if you would have read the whole thread you would have seen that you sound like a complete idiot. I concluded that the responsibility of this issue was 100% my fault..."
No, you didn't... and you continue to blame the gun, the bullets, and load.
"...I know... low velocity jacketed bullets and undersized barrels don't mix!"


My barrel has a constriction that puts it much smaller than yours; never have I had a problem using jacketed bullets. High velocity cast bullets lead the bore to the extreme.


Now I'm perplexed. How does one manage to jam bullets/boolits in a barrel and not experience any recoil, excessive sound or any other warning signs?
You didn't charge more than a few cases, then sat there and fired your firearm oblivious to the obvious danger.

There were ample "warning signs;" your pride is still not letting you heed them.

[Animal]

Win94, I'm online searching causes for this condition right now. You listed a few things that I mentioned as a potential factor, do you have any input to provide on those? such as the primer. I'm all ears.

[Animal]

All cases were charged. I confirm this with a flashlight each time i fill out the trey. I wonder, however, if there is a possibility that one charge that I dumped through the funnel (at minimum start load) absorbed a few grains of the powder charge. The weight was measured properly, but I can see where static and (this soft poofy powder) might have caused a light charge. With what I've just researched, undercharging a load is the most common cause. Coupling that with a jacketed bullet (higher friction) could be the cause...

Now, because of the last sentence I wrote above, I know some of you will take that as me SHIFTING blame. However, I'm the operator and caretaker of the equipment.

[fouronesix]

Animal,
No, I think your initial thought about a tight bore is the primary cause. Hodgdon data clearly shows your starting load as the suggested starting load for PB under the 158 XTP in the 357.
I wouldn't overthink it. I'd imagine the combination of very tight bore, light load, revolver and jacketed bullet, combined, did what no one could foresee- of course unless they have magic 20-20 hind sight.

Getting jumped on for not noticing bullets not hitting paper or little recoil from an already light load seems more like rocks thrown by those living in glass houses.

[alleyoop]

I had this happen to a bud of mine with a 380 he caught the fact that the first shot never left the barrel, we stopped firing any 380 that day after returning home he discovered that the 49th ed Lyman 380 max load was less than start load in a couple other manuals. The point is IMHO one source ain't good enough, I always cross reference loads.

[Animal]

Animal, there is nothing wrong with your gun. It's a piece of machinery that was misused, and now it will be put away in an unsafe condition. That is the last of a long string of bad conclusions.
First of all, let me say that you are not alone. Another member made the same mistake a few months ago with his revolver. He did bulge his barrel in multiple places and had nine boolits and three bullets stacked up in there. Observe what your barrel looks like on the inside:
81747
Fortunately, I was able to save his gun, and it is back with him now and running young.

If you care for some advice, I have a few pieces for you.
First of all your barrel diameter. A smaller bore will not stick bullets. It will increase noise, pressure, felt recoil, and bullet speed.
Second, If you don't own some actual reloading books, you should go buy some and double check your steps (not that I saw anything wrong with your described process) What Chargar was trying to say is that you should realize the fact that it was nothing the gun did that landed you in this situation, and before you pull the handle on another reloading press, you should make sure you understand what happened. Pull the remaining cartridges and weigh them out to see what you did! throw some more charges and see if they are correct! check your scale to make sure it was set correctly! Just putting the gun away is not going to solve anything, and you will be doomed to make the same mistake with your new glock or what ever you end up with. I've got news for you: it can happen to a glock too!
81748
Chargar was attempting to save your life, because the steps you have taken so far are irresponsible and inadequate. (sorry if that hurts your feelings, but the good news is there is a cure!).
Now, it is possible that you didn't destroy your pistol, and if you're just going to put it away, I would like to buy it from you (at a significant discount of course) because it can be repaired and put to good use.
If you prefer to keep it, it is your responsibility to have it repaired. Either figure out how to do it yourself, or take it to a gunsmith in your area. Setting it aside in it's present condition is unsafe. (Just my humble opinion)

No one here is trying to belittle you in any way. We want to prevent people from making horrible mistakes, and encourage them to continue to become better reloaders. Part of that is pointing out what is wrong sometimes.
After all, we are all just experts in training.

That is a fascinating photo. I'm pretty sure that is what my barrel looks like. I thought about the safety aspect of keeping that around the house in that condition. I'll go talk to the fellas at my LGS when I'm off next to see if there is any hope in rendering it 'safe' at the very least.

I have a lee modern reloading manual that I've worn out. Of course you can never have too many manuals. Since the majority of my equipment is Lee, I've base my loads on his recommended preparations.

[Win94ae]

Win94, I'm online searching causes for this condition right now. You listed a few things that I mentioned as a potential factor, do you have any input to provide on those? such as the primer. I'm all ears.

I had a lot of "input" in my first post, and you didn't employ your "ears" to any of it.

I use the same bullet, a magnum primer, light loads, in a bore that slugs at .351. Never have I had a problem... ever.

But you couldn't have made a mistake... yet you sit there and let not one, not a few, but SIX FREAKING BULLETS stack-up in your bore! You don't do anything about it until the gun malfunctions.

Then you come here and insult people, saying they should be ashamed! The absurdity!

I'm ignoring you now.

[Animal]

Not a prob Win

If the 'input' you were referring to was the 'potential uncharged cases' I just simply don't put stock in that. I can see where it would be easy to draw that conclusion but I recall checking each row with a light. This goes against what you believe about my methods and I'm ok with that.

[MBTcustom]

Animal, have you had a chance to pull any of the remaining cartridges, and verify that the charges are correct?
I still think something is not right here, with the load.

[41 mag fan]

Not a prob Win

If the 'input' you were referring to was the 'potential uncharged cases' I just simply don't put stock in that. I can see where it would be easy to draw that conclusion but I recall checking each row with a light. This goes against what you believe about my methods and I'm ok with that.

I thought that too 23 yrs ago, until I stuck a boolit in my 357mag forcing cone, locking up the cylinder.
turns out I had a row...5 cases total, I totally missed, and I checked each row before I loaded them.

[Animal]

Animal, have you had a chance to pull any of the remaining cartridges, and verify that the charges are correct?
I still think something is not right here, with the load.

I was able to work a couple of the bullets out of the cylinder. Fortunatly I had enough clearance for 2. After trying to tap the bullet (through the bore several times) the bullets began to jump crimp. I wasn't intending for that to happen, but when it did it made it easy to work the bullets out. There was a powder charge in each one. I have not pulled the remaining bullets but I shook them next to my ear and could hear the powder charge swishing.

I use the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. It takes longer than the other option from Lee but it allows me to get a visual on each charge while charging. I check each one for +or- 0 before charging the case when working up a load.

I also check the scales calibration when I move to the next charge weight. I'll pull bullets when I'm off Monday.

[MBTcustom]

Can you get the powder out and measure it? I have no doubt that you had powder in each case, I'm just wondering if it was enough.
Also, did you weigh the charges when you set up the powder measure?

[Animal]

Will do Goodsteel. I'll check and report back on the matter.

[aspangler]

Now, it is possible that you didn't destroy your pistol, and if you're just going to put it away, I would like to buy it from you (at a significant discount of course) because it can be repaired and put to good use.

Wait a minute! I got dibs.:bigsmyl2:

[Heavy lead]

I'm certainly glad the OP in ok, when I was 19 adn first started reloading for the 44 magnum I did stick a bullet due to no powder, thank the lord I unloaded, pulled the cylinder and checked as the next one had a full charge of H110, I learned my lesson without damage except a slight mess in my shorts. I had no mentor, but some common sense and the fact that at 19 knew I was human and made mistakes.
The second time this happened was last year, as 46 years old, this was in a 1911 with factory loads, so it can happen with any round, I believe not only in careful reloading, but understanding the firearm in use as well, I'm coaching two new shooters and will not let them shoot reloads yet, they are to use factory rounds, at least 1,000 before we venture down that road and I've warned them about knowing, for 100% sure that the bullet went downrange, and if they are not sure then unload and check.
All loads reloads, or factory are subject to human error.
It's scary stuff that being aware of what's going on can save a lot of grief.
Animal, thanks for having the courage to share, keep your chin up and learn, we all learn every day, or should.

[oldgeezershooter]

I recently purchased a digital scale to double check my old Pacific balance scale, I use them both and have a very bright overhead light in my reloading room to examine powdered cases.
Years back I had some squibs using a book load for my 45-70 with 2400.
I noticed something wasn't right at once and stopped and tapped out the boolit. Noticed unburned powder in the barrel.
A friend told me about light charges in large cases, so now I use a powder that fills the case.

[DrCaveman]

My input may be skewed as i dont shoot test loads at commercial ranges, with other people around

Generally i like to shoot in the woods, by myself or maybe with my beautiful black lab hanging out if my loads arent expected to be ear-splitting 50kpsi loads

There is a particular sonic signature to rounds that make it out of the barrel. It is a similar signature whether it is 22lr from a six gun or 45-70 from a rifle. It is different from a revolver vs a closed-breech system like a bolt action or autoloading pistol but still similar

There is a distinct two or three part component that encompasses the: 1) hammer strike and primer ignition followed by 2) a release of gases at high velocity through a narrow, tuned acoustic resonator (cylinder gap/barrel) followed by 3) reverberation within the area of the shot typically an indoor range walls or an outdoor range draw or if you shoot in the woods, the local watershed.

If you dont hear each one of these components of the sonic signature, your shot probably did not make it out the barrel and shooting with that load STOPS IMMEDIATELY.

Glad you are OK.

FWIW i havent stuck any boolits since using my own cast lead. The only BULLETS i ever stuck were store-bought jacketed. Maybe....only use cast from here on out?

[Char-Gar]

Animal/Jug Johnson....here is your take away from this..

1. Don't shoot low end loads with jacked bullets in a handgun, for at those pressures it is easy to stick a bullet in a barrel. The fact that somebody else did it doesn't mean it will work for you.

2. If you pull the trigger and something does not feel right, sound right or look right stop shooting.

Learn these lessons and don't be a dumb ***. Now consider your butt adequately chewed...carry on.

[Animal]

DrCaveman,

Lead is definitely my preference. I can't see why I would buy jacketed bullets anymore.

[Animal]

Char-gar, will do!

[Skunkworks]

What y'all that sugests unscrewing the barrel seems to overlook, is the ejector pin that lies in a groove under the barrel!

http://www.taurususa.com/revolvers.cfm

What i would do if it was me, is take a 6-pack of cold beer and go to a good friend with a lathe.
Get him to make a brass bushing that will guide a 1/4" drill in the barrel.
Get a long 1/4" drill or get him to lengthen it with a brass rod so it will go all the way into the cylinder.
Drill out the center of all the bullets.
Dunt panic if the drill "digs in" at the end there is a spent case in the cylinder so no harm will be done to the revolver!
Do the same thing but now with a 19/64".

Now "all" you have in the barrel are jackets.
Get your friend to machine a brass rod that fits good in the bore.
Tap the stack of jackets backwards carefully.
Back the one up that is lodged between the cylinder and barrel.
Now open the cylinder and unload before tapping the remaning jackets out.

But that's just what i would do http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/2c.gif (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Blandet/Smilere/2c.gif.html)

[Animal]

I just went back and checked my bore slug dimensions. .347 (lands) .354 (groove)... sound about right?

[MBTcustom]

Sounds like an awesome cast lead shooter to me! LOL.
So how about those cotton pickin' powder charges!
Just kidding, your doing fine.
Seriously though, pull the cotton pickin bullets, and measure the cotton pickin powder charges.

[WILCO]

The firearm or it's maker bear no responsibility or fault in this matter. The fault is 100% on the shooter.

I agree. Perfect example of why I espouse the importance of reloading manuals and having a complete understanding of the process to assemble ammunition.
It was alarming to read of other posters nonchalantly stating they've had a smaller number of stuck bullets too. If it happens once, that should be the last time it occurs.

[Char-Gar]

As luck would have it, I ran across this little pic and article in the April 56 issue of American Rifleman. Misfire was Mr. Lang"s story, which I don't believe, as earlier USGI FMJ ammo (38 Special) had a habit of sticking bullets in barrels. This is the reason the military went with shorter and lighter FMJ bullets in their 38 Special ammo.

This just illustrates how easy it is to stick jacketed bullets in handgun barrels with low pressure ammo. Mr. Lang qualifies for a "Dumb ***" award, although some what belated. Jeeze, he didn't know anything was wrong, until he couldn't see the front sight!

I don't think even Tim could fix the barrel on this S&W M&P/Victory Model.

[41mag]

I can honestly say I have stuck three bullets in different firearms in 40 something years of loading. However, after each one I pulled the bolt, the slide or rolled the cylinder out for inspection.

One of them was a .270 which I missed a powder charge on, my fault totally, no argument there.

The next was in a GP-100 .357, powder again, but similar to your case I had the charge, but not enough of it. I thought had somehow set my measure up to throw a lighter charge than it was supposed to have. I wasn't sure if i missed the weight on the scale misreading it or what. None the less I pulled 99 out of 100 rounds just to be sure. Turns out it must have been one of around 8 loads which were the last ones as the hopper was getting close to being empty. Every other round weighed exactly what it should have. But I learned from this and haven't let it happen since.

Last one happened this past Labor Day. Loaded some 45 ACP loads, beginning with the start load and working up in .2 increments with several different powders. Third box of test loads first round. Chambered, aimed, and squeezed the trigger, and pop, the slide threw out the case, but failed to fully chamber the next round. I bumped the slide and it close fully. First thought was I HAD been running some pretty dirty loads. Next thought was "these are also pretty light loads", but like in your case, no hole in the target. Last thought drop the mag, empty the chamber and pull the barrel.

What I found was the previous bullet stuck about an inch or so past the chamber. Plenty of room for the next round to fit and fire properly. I was however correct though the chamber was full of soot and powder residue as well. That explained why the next round didn't allow the slide to return to battery. There again another lesson learned, not only about the dirty chamber and barrel but also about the light weight starting charges listed in manuals. From a clean barrel and chamber it would have probably fire just fine, but with the added crud from previous loads it simply came to a screeching halt.

Like mentioned several times above, when things don't appear as they should, this is always the time to cease and desist until you know for a fact why. When your messing with pressures of 20K and possibly higher at times, and are in a position that your possibly not the only one who might get hurt from it, then you can understand where Char is coming from.

I somewhat had a similar upbringing. My pop let me start helping him load our ammo when I was but 8yrs old. He was of course right there watching every step I made. We loaded for several different rifles, and a couple of handguns, and as the years went by his attention to me dwindled as he knew I had enough knots on my head I was in good shape. Growing up, I was always out at ranges, or in hunting camps with folks many years my senior, and was told on many occasions how impressed they were with not my handling of firearms but also my knowledge of the ammo for them and how well I shot for my age. I can also say that pop never actually knocked knots on my head, well maybe one or two but they were well deserved along with a couple of swift boots up the rear. He could however crush my feelings with just a hard stern look as I knew it meant I had let him down.

As for the stuck bullets, all have come since he has passed, but I guarantee I would have sported another couple of knots had he been here. He was just that sort of man.

[DrCaveman]

Wow. I guess it is one of those things in life, where the big guy upstairs gives you one freebie with major screwups that could potentially kill you. Do it twice, and he aint gonna be so tolerant

Learn learn learn, and remember the big mistakes. A wiser man than me told me: "an expert is someone who has made every mistake that can be made, and learned from each of them"

[220]

It was alarming to read of other posters nonchalantly stating they've had a smaller number of stuck bullets too. If it happens once, that should be the last time it occurs.

As I tried to point out it isn't just a reload problem, seems to be a fairly common with factory ammo in 17HMR.
I also know of a 243 that was destroyed with factory ammo.
A squib on its own isn't dangerous it is what the shooter does after firing the squib that leads to problems.

I don't know about everyone else but I think the are a fact of life if you shoot enough ammo. My reload count would be north of 100,000rds and I've had a few. The genuine squibs I can count on one hand but dealing with them correctly is the key to safety.
I had one a few years ago when I was shooting a ISSF competition overseas. Well placed to win a medal and on the first shot of my last series in the dualing stage of centrefire pop. Wasn't sure if it had left the barrel or not, if it had I wouldn't have been able to claim a malfunction and dropped the entire 5 shot series. It hadn't so was classed as a valid malfunction and I was allowed to reshoot the series but I value my safety more than any medal or trophy so was quite prepaired to finish last in order to confirm 100% the gun was safe to continue with.

I did have a number of not true squibs but loads that were under powered compared to what they should have been in a batch I reloaded a couple of years ago.
Operator error 100%, I deprimed then tumbled the cases and loaded without checking every flash hole, the new tumbling media was just the right size to get stuck in the odd flash hole.

[Animal]

41 mag...

There is no amount of value that can replace the experience of a father educating his son. Those are also the best times that a son can reflect on. When I screwed up, my dad would carry me out to Camp Darby, Fort Benning and have me fill sandbags for a day or more. I hated it at the time, but when I look back those were also the best of times.

[Animal]

DrCaveman... You hit the nail on the head. Experience is always the best teacher. I've learned more from my screw ups than I have my successes.

[Animal]

220, I had no idea that a squib was this common. Most of the info I've read about it since then would have you believe that factory ammo is squib proof.

[Animal]

I'll add that this thread has been very helpful. I've gotten a lot of good insight about squibs, how to avoid them and how to recognize when you have experienced one. I've really enjoyed reloading and I plan to do plenty more of it along with boolit casting. Fortunately, now I have more experience behind my belt from my own screw up and some great information I've gotten from this thread. I'll do what I can to render this gun safe, look into a set of dies so that I can begin loading my Ruger and carry on. Thanks,

Austin

[35remington]

Animal, what you really should be taking away from this is that minimum loads using jacketed bullets are to be avoided in revolvers. Especially in relatively long cases like the 357. If the powder piles up near the bullet rather than the primer the velocities can and will be lower than if the powder is near the primer.....and this contributes to the problem.

It may not have been a squib in the sense that it was a partial charge of powder. It was simply incorrect load selection. Don't pick extra light charges even if they are loading manual minimums if jacketed bullets are used. Lead bullets will exit the barrel with light charges in instances where jacketed bullets will not.

Jacketed bullets are a foolish selection with light charges.

Of course the best and most expensive and hazardous way of finding out is......the hard way.

A large cylinder/barrel gap or large cylinder throats will worsen the "barrel sticking" effect as well as they allow more gas leakage on firing and less velocity.

[220]

220, I had no idea that a squib was this common. Most of the info I've read about it since then would have you believe that factory ammo is squib proof.
I wouldn't say they are common in most factory ammo but they have been with the 17HMR, not a squib in the sense that there is no powder in the case but the end result is the same. A projectile stuck part way down the barrel.
Seems to be related to the case neck splitting issues the HMR has, best explaination I have heard is the powder sucks in moisture be it from the air a sweaty pocket etc and this results in powder degradation and incomplete or little powder burn when the round is fired.
I know with the one I had and a couple of others I've seen picture of, the powder has been unburnt and clumped together.
The 243 incident was factory loads that exceeded max OAL, a round was chambered, not fired and ejected leaving the projectile jambed in the lands the shooter never noticed a forced the next round home and pulled the trigger.

[smokeywolf]

Still anxious to hear what the actual weighed powder charge was in that batch of cartridges.

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

Still anxious to hear what the actual weighed powder charge was in that batch of cartridges.

smokeywolf

Indeed! Because that is an actual load from Hodgdons websight. 158gr XTP with 3.7gr PB. Should have produced 747 fps and 18800psi
In comparison, they show a lesser load for cast lead boolits being 3.5gr of PB which would have produced 840fps and 12200 psi
I don't see Hodgdon putting out bad load data, and I don't see how a couple thou smaller bore could grab a bullet going 750fps.
You said you loaded 49 rounds. Why not pull the very next ones and see what the weight is?
I would be doing that about 2 seconds after I yanked the front door open. What am I missing?

[Char-Gar]

Guys, there is no great mystery here, it is history repeating itself. During ww2 the US used 158 grain FMJ ammo at 850 fps. At speeds less than this bullets could stick in the barrel. Bullets did stick in worn guns that lost pressure through the barrel/cylinder gap. The US went to a 130 grain bullet to reduce pressure through the lighter bullet with a shorter bearing surface.

Sticking a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 750 fps should be very easy to do. All it takes is a handgun slightly out of spec as those loads are right on the cusp of sticking anyway.

Lee didn't stick any bullets in their test gun, but forgot the lesson of history or never knew it in the first place. To be certain you don't stick such bullets, you will have to load them to +P pressure or 100 to 150 GPS faster. You can run lighter JHP bullets slower.

With a little knowledge of the history of fmj round in the 38 Special, this incident is easy to understand.

[MBTcustom]

Wow, you learn something new everyday. I have fired thousands of 38 special's through my model 19 at much less pressure than this, and I never stuck one. In fact, they punched nice holes in the target 30 yards down range. Course, I wasn't using PB, I was using Unique.
I'm glad this thread was posted! Very informative.
Still, I would be very much obliged if Animal could double check those loads. If they are actually what they were supposed to be, then color me better informed!

[500MAG]

This is why I carry a push rod to the range with me. Anytime I don't get, what I call an acceptable recoil, I check the barrel with the rod. My paranoia and OCD help with this. Lol.

[Animal]

I'm off tomorrow guys. I promise I will pull bullets and weigh charges. I'd rather do it when I have the house to myself, no kid or wife and a couple of consecutive hours alone after my coffee. :coffeecom

[mozeppa]

been thinking about how to remove the slugs from the barrel...and i havent read all the replies so i may be duplicating someone elses idea.

get a piece of brass tubing that closely (but loosely) fits the bore.
insert tube so that it touches the first slug.

get a drill bit that closely fits inside the brass tube and insert it into the brass tube.
this will insulate the bit from the barrel bore.
...using a varible speed drill drill slowly out each slug.

as the drill bit advances....so advance the tube.

stop! and check the brass tube every so often to make sure that theres no damage to the tube by the bit...
or worse damage to the bore. check the shavings with a clean magnet. to see what sticks.

lead copper and brass won't stick....but the steel bore will if you get into it. good luck.

[Char-Gar]

I have yet to load my first jacketed bullet of any kind in any handgun round. When I started loading and shooting handguns, the only jacketed bullets around were RN FMJ stuff for autopistols and a "metal piercing" round for the .357 Magnum and I never laid eyes on that critter. Everybody loaded cast bullets even in the various autoloaders. JHP bullets were still years away.

I think I have about a million rounds of cast bullets loaded and fired in handguns, and only had one boo-boo. I loaded a 44 Special round with a bullet, a primer but no powder. My son fired it and the bullet stuck in the forcing cone with the back half still in the cylinder. He could not rotate the cylinder and brought it to me to find out why. I took a rod, and knocked the bullet back into the cylinder and removed it, the empty case and the other rounds. I then took the rest of the ammo home and broke it down. I found one more without powder, but the rest were fully charge.

I make a religion of checking each case for the correct powder charge before seating the bullets. I guess even these most religious among us can lapse. I missed two out of two hundred. Never did it before, and have never done it since, but I did it that time.

The first generation or two JHP bullets didn't work or worked within a very narrow range of velocity. It took Lee Jurris to come along with Super-Vel to make JHP work. It worked so well that Super-Vel took command of the Law Enforcement market. The major ammo companies cloned his work and ganged up to undersell him and put him out of business, which they did. But the police and self defense world owe Lee a big debt of gratitude for what he started, saved many lives. Lee is still alive, kicking and living in a small town in New Mexico. He still shoots, but is fighting a battle with prostate cancer. He is a tough old bird and my money is on him to win.

Most handgun shooters grew up with jacketed bullets and didn't see their evolution and don't know their limitations. They are very different critters than lead bullets. Lead can be pushed much slower and still exit the barrel without problems. It is never a good idea to use jacketed bullets for low pressure/velocity target loads. All it takes is tight bore to increase resistance or a large b/c gap to bleed off some pressure and you have what Animal experienced. When you run 38 cal 150-160 grain jacketed bullets at less than +P pressure, you are always flirting with a stuck bullet. It is like shooting High Base shotshells in old Damascus barrels. It works just fine, until that one shot when it doesn't.

I am curious as well, to see what Animal finds where he breaks down the rounds. I suspect he will find just what he thought he put there. But we won't know until he does the deed and reports back.

As an aside I am a fossil when it comes to handgun powder. 99.9% of my handgun loads have used Bullseye, Unique or 2400. The other .1% have had AA5 or AA9, both good powders. Well there was a little 231 as well, to tell the truth, but not much...not much. Not so much as to PO the Bullseye god.

I read one time where King Solomon's problems all came from his "lusting after foreign women". He took them into his home and they brought their alien gods and all kinds of problems. I think that is what happens where you start messing with handgun powders that didn't bear the original name of Hercules Powder Company. When you do so, you are laying down some really bad Karma.

[Mack Heath]

Very interesting thread. One thing I have only seen addressed in passing is the barrel/cylinder (b/c) issue. There are b/c gaps and then there are B/C gaps. A gun with a tight b/c gap will tolerate lighter loads than one that is worn. When Animal finally gets his gun cleared, he should measure the b/c gap. With large barrel/cylinder gaps you need more gas volume to give the bullet time to get out the barrel before the pressure drops. Short barreled guns are more tolerant than long barreled guns of large b/c gaps. A load that works in a snubby with a large b/c gap will wind up a squib in a 6" barreled gun with the same b/c gap.

If his Taurus is on the large size that could well be the reason that a workeable load for most guns failed to work in his.

[Char-Gar]

Very interesting thread. One thing I have only seen addressed in passing is the barrel/cylinder (b/c) issue. There are b/c gaps and then there are B/C gaps. A gun with a tight b/c gap will tolerate lighter loads than one that is worn. When Animal finally gets his gun cleared, he should measure the b/c gap. With large barrel/cylinder gaps you need more gas volume to give the bullet time to get out the barrel before the pressure drops. Short barreled guns are more tolerant than long barreled guns of large b/c gaps. A load that works in a snubby with a large b/c gap will wind up a squib in a 6" barreled gun with the same b/c gap.

If his Taurus is on the large size that could well be the reason that a workeable load for most guns failed to work in his.

Stand behind and to the side of somebody as they shoot a revolver at night and see how much fire shoots out of the b/c gap and you will realize how much gas goes out. The bigger the gap he more the gas loss. It doesn't take the b/c gap to be much out of spec before performance starts to suffer.

The WWII 158 grain FMJ ammo was loaded to what would now be +P pressure and in short order it turned those vintage Smith and Wesson K frames into rattling wrecks with increasing b/c gaps. With increasing pressure going out the gap, the amount left to shove the bullet out the barrel dropped to the sticking point.

Animal's Taurus may have started life with a large b/c gap, I have seen revolvers come factory fresh out of spec that way. I sent several new Smith and Wessons back to the factory for a fix back around the early 80's.

The larger the gap the greater the performance loss and it also can result in diminished accuracy due to alignment issues.

This is more Sixgun 101 stuff.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I started loading ammunition many, many years ago without a mentor or anybody to show or explain things or what pitfalls to avoid.

First thing I did was read about 4 different reloading manuals and learn the theoretical process. Then I bought some equipment(Lee) and components and started loading .357Mag rounds.
I had to learn to calibrate and use a scale, learn how to use dial calipers and micrometers and all the intricacies of preparing and reloading cartridges all on my own. I learned to double-check powder charges and OAL and never had a misfire or any problems whatsoever.

After a few thousand rounds loaded using a single-stage Lee Loader, I thought that I knew everything there was to know about loading ammunition.
So, I bought a brand-new Lee 1000 progressive press. And found out that I really didn't know very much at all. The hype around the progressive press was that you set the powder measure, loaded up the primer fill mechanism, filled the powder hopper and loaded the bullet feed mechanism and each pull of the handle produced a loaded round.

After running through the process one round at a time a few times, I got lazy and stopped checking the powder level because that just slowed things down. And a progressive is all about cranking out copious amounts of ammo in as short a period of time as possible,right?

WRONG!

After some number of rounds that I no longer remember, I decided to stop and fill up some ammo boxes with all those nice new cartridges that I had loaded.
I noticed that a primer had not seated properly...it was upside down. OK, I guess that can happen, so I set that round aside to disassemble and finished boxing up the other rounds. I didn't stop to think that if one thing went wrong that it was entirely possible that something else might be out of kilter as well.

At any rate, my wife and I had a match the next day and things did not go well.
I fired a round in the middle of the match that did not sound quite right and immediately called an "alibi".
I had a jacketed bullet stuck in the barrel of my .357Mag revolver. I managed to tap it out with a cleaning rod. Other shooting team members advised me not to shoot any more of those cartridges until I had checked them out.

So, I went out and bought a kinetic bullet puller and started to disassemble rounds. A couple had very light powder charges and a couple didn't have any powder in them at all. All of this out of two 50rd boxes of reloads.

Why? Well part of it was that I got lazy and sloppy and relied too much on my equipment and the hype surrounding a progressive press and the supposed benefits of same.

I re-read everything about the Lee 1000 and went all over it with all due diligence and started reloading cartridges again.

I soon found that the primer feed would constantly mis feed primers, some upside down and it would regularly jam up. I also discovered that by checking each powder charge that I was getting very inconsistent powder charging.

I played around with that press for quite a while before it became clear that it was never going to function reliably for me.

What I did was put it back in a box where it resides to this very day along with the aluminum Lee loader that I soon discovered was actually flexing as I re-sized handgun cases.

I bought an RCBS RockChucker and a Little Dandy powder measure and went back to loading ammunition on a single-stage press. I weigh every charge when I start throwing powder to set the measure and then every tenth charge as I charge and visually check each and every case for proper powder level.

I prime cases ahead of time on an RCBS APS bench-mounted unit.

I do each case prep step on an RCBS case-prep center including cleaning every primer pocket.
I measure cases for OAL and inspect every case visually throughout the process numerous times.
When loading cartridges, I do not allow ANY distractions. My family knows that if I am reloading that any interruption had best be for a very good reason because reloading is not a process to be trifled with.

I charge 50 cases and visually check each case and weigh every tenth charge and then seat bullets. I then check every tenth cartridge for OAL. Any discrepancies and out comes the bullet puller.

I have not had a squib load since the first one all those years ago and do not expect to have another. But...I still check each and every charged case and weigh every tenth charge.

And that is done for each and every cartridge that I have ever loaded and there have been many, many thousands in various calibers.

While I may eventually buy another progressive press, it will not be a Lee and will be as mature a design as is possible. And I will still check powder levels and weigh every tenth powder charge.

[35remington]

Mack, see the bottom half of post #70. B/C gap (and one point you did not mention, cylinder throat diameter) has been mentioned before.

[35remington]

And 375, your problems were caused by unfamiliarity with the Pro 1000 press, predominantly. Ask me about the primer feed and metering capabilities of the Auto Disk and Pro Auto Disk measures and be better informed. I have loaded 10's of thousands of rounds on such a press without incident.

Weighing and checking powder levels after initial setup is not necessary save for the very occasional check provided you know what you are about. This post is intended to get you there by familiarizing you with the nuances of the setup. It can be done with knowledge on your side.

If I can do it anyone can. The primer feed issue is very easy to overcome. So is the powder thing. End of problem.

[Char-Gar]

I started loading in 1958 and still am not competent enough to use a progressive loader.

[35remington]

Personal issues I cannot address. Specific ones regarding the press function I can address. Sounded like primers and powder metering were his issues, and those are easily fixable with the design.

[waksupi]

I started loading in 1958 and still am not competent enough to use a progressive loader.

^^^^^^^^

[mikeym1a]

Stand behind and to the side of somebody as they shoot a revolver at night and see how much fire shoots out of the b/c gap and you will realize how much gas goes out. The bigger the gap he more the gas loss. It doesn't take the b/c gap to be much out of spec before performance starts to suffer.

The WWII 158 grain FMJ ammo was loaded to what would now be +P pressure and in short order it turned those vintage Smith and Wesson K frames into rattling wrecks with increasing b/c gaps. With increasing pressure going out the gap, the amount left to shove the bullet out the barrel dropped to the sticking point.

Animal's Taurus may have started life with a large b/c gap, I have seen revolvers come factory fresh out of spec that way. I sent several new Smith and Wessons back to the factory for a fix back around the early 80's.

The larger the gap the greater the performance loss and it also can result in diminished accuracy due to alignment issues.

This is more Sixgun 101 stuff.
Not trying to hijack this thread, but how would you go about fixing a large barrel/cylinder gap? Would you shim the cylinder forward, or re-seat the barrel to close the gap?

[Char-Gar]

Not trying to hijack this thread, but how would you go about fixing a large barrel/cylinder gap? Would you shim the cylinder forward, or re-seat the barrel to close the gap?

You use shims to move the cylinder back and removed "end shake". The only fix for too large a B/C gap is to set the barrel back a thread and reset the gap.

[a.squibload]

I have taken night "portraits" with muzzle flash, cylinder gap flash is very noticeable!

I've had one squib load, no powder in a 44mag, non-magnum primer, bullet didn't jump the crimp.

I won't use a loading block. Charge case, look, put it in shell holder, insert boolit.

Long ago a friend dropped the hammer on his SBH, nothing happened. He cocked it
again, I yelled STOP STOP STOP! We drove the boolit out of the barrel with a stick.
Apparently no powder. He always used magnum primers.

[singleshot]

I won't use a loading block. Charge case, look, put it in shell holder, insert boolit.


+1...using this procedure is the MOST reliable method.

Also, quick comment on 35Rem post: telling somebody not to start with published min loads and work up contradicts everything that's been published on the subject to my knowledge. Not saying it's wrong, just sayin'...

Last comment, beating somebody up on the internet you don't know and have no relationship with is mostly pointless at best, and likely counter-productive. The financial consequences alone of a "near miss" like this tend to be self correcting. Not that I'm opposed to correction...did 24 years of active military service, taught at a couple different ascessions schools, taught unarmed combat, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah...you get the point. Now, just as a teaching point, who's gonna take my last comment and change ANYTHING as a result? Huh?

[Animal]

Ok guys... Mr. Goodsteel especially. Here is the promised charge data. Remember my revolver has a 7 round cylinder. The first round made it to paper and the following 6 lodged in the barred [smilie=b:. The next 7 rounds were loaded in the revolver and have not been removed due to a locked up cylinder :violin:

49 rounds made between 3.7 start and 4.9 max. I worked up from 3.7 in 2/10 charges with 7 rounds each charge. This leaves me with 35 rounds to examine the charge.

Load #1 3.7gr (unavailable)
Load #2 3.9gr (unavailable)
Load #3 4.1gr
1. 4.1
2. 3.9 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
3. 3.6 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
4. 3.9 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
5. 3.5 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
6. 4.1
7. 4.1

Ok, I've not had a situation yet where I had to pull a bullet and weight the charge. Obviously I had a difficult time preserving 4 of the charges, but I figured out how to do it after the the last one.

Load #4 4.3gr

1. 4.3
2. 4.3-4.4 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
3. 4.2-4.3 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
4. 4.3
5. 4.3
6. 4.3
7. 4.3

Load #5 4.5gr

1. 4.5
2. 4.5
3. 4.5
4. 4.5
5. 4.4-4.5 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
6. 4.4
7. 4.5

Load #6 4.7gr

1. 4.7
2. 4.7
3. 4.7
4. 4.8
5. 4.7
6. 4.7
7. 4.6-4.7 (not sure which the scale liked the best)

Load #7 4.9gr

1. 4.9
2. 4.9-5.0 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
3. 4.9-5.0 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
4. 4.8
5. 4.9
6. 4.9-5.0 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
7. 4.9

[Char-Gar]

OK...That is what I expected you would find. There were no mischarged cases. The 3.7 start loads were just underpowered and due to "whatever" did not have the pizz to get one of the bullets out of the barrel and the rest stacked up.

If you would have started with the 4.9 load, you would not have had the problem until you got to the low end.

Again, the lesson to be learned is;

1. Just because somebody write it in a book and says it is OK does not mean that will work for you.
2. Shoot jacketed bullets in a sixgun at low end target speeds and there is a good chance you will stick a bullet.
3. Keep jacked bullet loads up to or above standard velocity or better yet +P.

This is not new information, but has been around for several generations. Back in the day, some older shooter would have said "Don't do that", but in this internet age we don't get much of that personal involvement.

[Animal]

Char-Gar that is exactly what I was feeling after I examined the charges, but I wanted to hear it from a seasoned reloader before I rested on that conclusion. Thanks, this has been one hell of a lesson!

[Char-Gar]

Yes, it is a lesson that all of us need to learn or relearn. The would not have occurred with cast bullet, at least with your powder charges. Even with alloy bullets you can stick them, if you drop the pressure beyond a certain point.

Why anybody would shoot those dreadful little yellow thingies is beyond my ability to understand. :-)

Thanks for taking time and effort to pull and weigh the charges. When we have facts, we can stop guessing and have some real basis to understand what happened and why.

[Animal]

Singleshot... the potential financial consequences are the reason that I chose to learn how to reload with my 430 buck Taurus as opposed to my 900 buck Ruger... When I think about my loved Taurus being buggered up it makes my stomach twist in knots. But when I think about my extremely loved Ruger .44 Super Red Hawk being in pristine condition... I want to dance in the street.

I'm glad I made one good decision!

[Animal]

Char-Gar, I bought those XTPs a few months go when they finally came available. I went ahead and dropped the big bucks with Midway to get a thousand. Since I didn't want to deplete my XTP stash I began to tinker with lead. I bought no-name boxes of lead boolits from my LGS. I all but swore them off until I came across this forum. I was leading at all velocities, my accuracy was horrible and I was ready to sell them off to someone who cast boolits. With this forum I learned about slugging the bore and throats. I began sort those boolits by diameter. They were advertised at .358, but half of them were well below .357. I found my accuracy and enjoyment increased a great deal with a proper sized boolit. I still had terrible leading problems but I learned about characteristics of boolit lube and hardcast boolits. A fellow member of this forum was kind enough to send me a block of beeswax, soft gas-checks and some .359 boolits. I first experiemented with the beeswax and Vaseline. The leading stopped all together. I've used the beeswax/Vaseline lube along with 9.4 gr of Blue Dot, 12.4 gr of 2400, 4227 and HP-38. My barrel was clean as a whistle.

The only reason I fooled with the xtps recently was because I was almost out of boolits, I don't have a mold yet to cast my own, and I was chompin at the bit to load something new to add to my file of 'good loads'. I won't be surprised if I never use another jacketed bullet. I've got several hundred pounds of lead and have found a lube that works. Why change a good thing?

[Char-Gar]

I have been using the beeswax/Vaseline mix for over 50 years with complete satisfaction.

If you won't want to cast your own, I can recommend Matts Bullets. He can provide a number of hand cast designs, that come with a very good lube and the correct alloy. His prices are reasonable and he is a good person to work with. For most of my routine handgun shooting I buy bullet from him.

[country gent]

Squibs can happen faulty primer bad powder charge stuck, or brigded. A couple shilouette matches ago was shooting with a good friend and a very experienced shooter. there was a really wild shot ( way of the pig. We discused his hold and call I pointed out on the spotter board where his shot was, All normal things. He got back into position cocked the hammer on his browning settled in and click. He open the action and removed an empty case started to reach for a loaded one. I stopped him and told him look thru the barrel, did youu forget to load or was it a squib? Make sure theres nothing in the barrel. He was very glad to have been reminded to do this as in the heat of the charging pigs and match nerves it never occures to him. But could have been a major opps otherwise. No there was nothing in the barrel but it dint cost anythin to look and make sure. Saftey first second and always.

[MBTcustom]

Animal, thank you for pulling down the cotton pickin ammo.
I confess, I was waiting pensively for the outcome. This is a real shocker to me, and I'm not too ashamed to admit it. I trust the books as being the last word, and this is the first time I have ever heard of a written and published book giving potentially dangerous information.
I owe you an apology for busting your chops, and I admit that I was dead wrong in my thinking.
(I officially apologize)
I believe I could have made the same mistake (although, I probably wouldn't have stacked a bunch of bullets) and I would have been just as confused about the outcome.
The outcome of this thread is extremely valuable information. A hard road to extremely pertinent information.
I see how this could happen with excessive cylinder gap, but I've never heard of such an instance before.
Thanks for being a good sport and hanging in there.

[Animal]

Mr. Goodsteel,

You don't owe me an apology. I never felt that you were acting in any particularly crude way. In fact, if you didn't press me to do it... I doubt I wouldn't have pulled the bullets. I didn't think I would be able to preserve enough charges to make a real determination as to the actual load in the shells.

I've met some real good folks with this thread. You are one of them. I can't remember everyone's names, but Char-Gar, (who i admit rattled my cage in the beginnin) you and a few other folks who are experts in my opinion chose to give a rookie like me the benefit of the doubt. That speaks a lot about your character and that is why I have respect for you guys.

Char-Gar mentioned having learned at the feet of some extraordinary people... My situation is a little bit different, but I'm learning at the keyboard from some pretty damn good people.

Thanks guys

[country gent]

misprints , skewed data, diffrent components, or diffrent processes can all happen. Why I check new data against old when starting a new load.I normally check lymann sierra and Hornady manuals against each other. Also have speer vitavori, alliant, and a bunch of the one calibers. I really like the one calibers as it one caliber and data from everyone. Any data thats greatly higher or lower for same components should be suspect to question.

[Char-Gar]

I think it was Shakespeare that said, "All is well that ends well". It didn't end very well for your sixgun, but the learning curve has been bend a tad for some folks. That is a good thing.

As a general rule, published data is better than antidotal data picked up off the Internet, but not always. I have seen enough squirrely stuff in print over the years, to keep my BS detector well charged even when looking at established sources.

Most everybody knows that bad stuff can happen when you play around on the red line of high pressure reloading. Not as many folks understand that bad stuff can also happen when you play around on the red line of low pressure reloading. It would seem that even the dude who wrote that stuff in the Lee material missed that boat.

Animal...You have been a stand up guy through all of this and took a pretty good shot from me. As they say out here in Texas..."You will make a hand".

[popper]

A couple ages ago I was tasked to drive my big bros. 57 ford to the next town, ~ 10 mi trip. Now a Fairlane isn't meant to be a snow plow and halfway there a red light (what do they call them?) lit. Then another. I did make it, the call home wasn't pleasant. I think I was to get snow tires put on. Learned early to get the antifreeze checked before the blizzard sets in (wasn't my job or car in this case). Yes, I've had a couple squibs, even had a case head blow off. All my fault - don't reload FC marked 40SW cases and I had read about the problem, just didn't bother to check stamps, remember to put powder in the cases. Need one of those red lights on my guns. But then I've got to remember when the light goes off, STOP.

[Animal]

Mr. Char-Gar, I too am a fellow Texan. Transplanted or course. I'm glad I'll 'make a good hand'.

I stopped by my LGS after I had lunch with my wife this afternoon and picked up Lymans 49th ed Reloading handbook. Even though I feel I've been acquitted of screwing up load data, I don't think I want to do anymore reloading until I read up some more. I've already worn out my Lee manual, but maybe Lyman can expand on a few points and fill in some gaps I may have missed. My dad wants me to reload for his .40 S&W and I wan't to make damn sure I don't flirt around on any 'red lines'. He's too cheap to stock up on factory ammo so he insist on buying crappy reloads from gun shows. I'd rather him buy factory than shoot anyone elses reloads, but since I know he won't, I'd rather be the one doing his reloading.

Since I'll be working with a rimless cartridge, I may need some guidance. But I promise I'll be wearing out my manuals before I start bugging folks for pointers. Fortunately, I'll be making one of my annual trips to North Carolina where an old buddy of mine can give me some hands on training with his press for making rimless ammo. He knows semi autos pretty well, but not wheel guns so much.

[Char-Gar]

You should not have any trouble with 40 S&W. I don't load for it, but if I did...

1. I would get me a loaded round gage so make certain all loads are spec.
2. I would stick with recommended charges for full snort loads, and would choose Bullseye powder, Unique or AA5. I know there are others, but these powders I know.
3. I would stick with good quality bullets in the normal weight range.
4. I would use a proper taper crimp die

[DrCaveman]

Animal

Mr Gar helped me out a bunch with my 45 acp loading, which may have some similar concerns as the 40 s&w. Sure, the pressure is a lot higher with the 40, but the issues like cartridge OAL, crimp, and proper charge are similar. My guess is that a harder alloy might work better in the 40 whereas you can get away with super soft in 45 acp might be the big difference. Dunno, since i dont load 40, but it makes sense

Yeah ive had minor chewings by Gar and while i still disagree about certain small things, it is highly evident that he is looking out for the best interests of everyone in the long run. And that his loading advice for semi autos has been spot-on, despite irregularities between guns. At least, that is what i have found. As im progressing down the path toward reloading comptetence, it is refreshing to hear more 'old school' methods to contrast those published by many major suppliers these days

If you dont own a copy of Sixguns, i suggest you remedy that. Great breaktime reading at work

[Char-Gar]

One of the great truths in life, is folks with something to sell, will lead you to believe you need that stuff to do things right. Reloading has not changed, but the peddlers have made it seem that way, so they can sell their stuff. Anything coming from somebody "in the trade" is always suspect. They want to sell their brand of "better mousetrap".

Don't be overly concerned about my "harshness". I really do like about 95% of the people in this great country.

My name is Charles Graff and I live in deep South Texas. You guys can call me Charles, Chuck or Hey Old Fart. I am a retired dual career fellow (Attorney and Methodist Preacher) and my retirement gig is Adjunct Professor of Legal Studies at a local college. I am a life time shooter, handloader and all around gun nut.

Sixguns by Keith is indeed a great read. When you get through with that read Keiths biography "Hell, I Was There". No doubt he would qualify as big league "harsh" in these touchy feely times.

When it comes to handgun loading and loading in general anything written by Kent Bellah is worth your time to read. Probably the greatest gun writer (including handloading) that ever lived in Townsend Whelen. There guys may indeed be "old school" but they knew what they were talking about, unlike many of today's gun gadget peddlers.

[meeesterpaul]

After you get the barrel cleared slug the barrel. Pushing some cast bullets througthe barrel will give you a sense of fit. I would think that you would notice if the barrel bulged. If I pushed bullets through and it felt consistent I'd certainly keep using it.
As for comments suggesting that what you did was a bad thing, I bet you are now one of the least likely people to let a squib go unnoticed.

[AggieEE]

A thought occured to me. Since Tarus is basically a copy of S&W I'm pretty sure that they use a odd number of grooves. When i slugged my 629 I didn't think about the odd groove count and got a very odd reading. As meesterpaul said slug the barrel again and count the lands and grooves. There is a way to measure odd groove diameter, I don't remember the procedure but it is in one of Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks books. We all make mistakes try to learn from them and learn from other peoples mistakes as you can't live long enough to make all of the mistakes yourself.

[Char-Gar]

Sluging/measuring the barrel on the aforementioned Taurus revolver would not have prevented the OP from underloading jacketed bullet rounds based on misleading/erroneous information.

I don' get the point of those who are trying to bring bore slugging into this thread. Do you guys read these threads? The answer to every question is not "slug your bore". In fact that is the answer to very few questions about handloading for sixguns.

If you want to know is the barrel is bulged, you look down it when it is clean. A bulge will show up as a dark circle. Most bulges can be felt by lightly sliding your fingers along the outside of the barrel.

[Animal]

Animal

Mr Gar helped me out a bunch with my 45 acp loading, which may have some similar concerns as the 40 s&w. Sure, the pressure is a lot higher with the 40, but the issues like cartridge OAL, crimp, and proper charge are similar. My guess is that a harder alloy might work better in the 40 whereas you can get away with super soft in 45 acp might be the big difference. Dunno, since i dont load 40, but it makes sense

Yeah ive had minor chewings by Gar and while i still disagree about certain small things, it is highly evident that he is looking out for the best interests of everyone in the long run. And that his loading advice for semi autos has been spot-on, despite irregularities between guns. At least, that is what i have found. As im progressing down the path toward reloading comptetence, it is refreshing to hear more 'old school' methods to contrast those published by many major suppliers these days

If you dont own a copy of Sixguns, i suggest you remedy that. Great breaktime reading at work
One of the reasons I'm attracted to the 45acp is the low low pressure and the big slow boolit. I haven't researched much for it, but that also leads me to believe that a soft allow should work accurately and not cause leading problems... I dunno, we'll see as I research this round.
As far as the 40s&w, I doubt my dad will care to shoot lead unless they are store bought.

[Animal]

Chuck, I'm Austin. I'm an automotive instructor for the soldiers on Fort Benning, Ga. Some have mentioned that I 'kept a cool head' through some of the disagreements. All I have to do is think about the knuckleheads on fort benning that think they are master automotive technicians because they work on track vehicles in the army. I've been the seasoned technician for these guys, and when I feel like they have made a dumb mistake I'm quick to either sharply correct or withdrawal completely because that individual might be a poor investment... I know they look at me like an old bastard when I correct them in their misguided delusions. Nothing different has happened here. I just had to put myself in their shoes and realize that there is relation between master and apprentice that can be highly rigid at times but in the end works toward perfection when the Master cares to teach and the Apprentice desires knowledge. Not always pretty, but it works.

[50target]

ANIMAL, I just picked up the last page and see that you are in Columbus, Ga. I am across the river in Phenix City and have been reloading since 74 for both wheel guns and them shell shuckers. Shoot me a PM if I can help in any way.
Bob

[Grump]

Well, now that we have peace in the land again (praises be to the Higher Power), may I suggest:

Fabricate a hard thin brass or aluminum "hacksaw" type blade and saw through the bullet jammed in the forcing cone. Then you can open up the cylinder and unload those other rounds.

Loaded revolver chambers make me nervous.

Hammering on a revolver with loaded chambers makes me nervous. Lighting one up there is not the same as lighting one up in a semiauto's magazine. Containment and all that.

The drill, thread and pull ideas are okay, but being in front of a loaded chamber still makes me a little nervous.

And using the whole revolver as an impact bullet puller for the chambered rounds would terrify me. Besides, the barrel *might* be recoverable. Does the exterior show any snake-swallowing-a-sparrow bulging? That pic of the sectioned barrel with nine (9!!!!) slugs in it shows bore bulging quite clearly, and even a bit on the exterior.

Open the cylinder and you can unscrew the barrel.

And some suggestions miss a key fact or two--like amalgamizing with mercury doesn't work with copper as nicely as it does with lead...

Me, I won't really criticize the load or technique, and note that the Magnum primers *usually* makes stuck bullets less likely under the ways things generally work.

The bonehead maneuver started with the third trigger pull. But that's been covered more than adequately.

[MBTcustom]

I think I could get all the bullets out of that barrel. I could just twink it with the 3700lb magic wand, as seen over my right shoulder in my avatar.
It would take a minute or two though.

[taco650]

ANIMAL, I just picked up the last page and see that you are in Columbus, Ga. I am across the river in Phenix City and have been reloading since 74 for both wheel guns and them shell shuckers. Shoot me a PM if I can help in any way.
Bob

Yo Animal and 50Target, I'm up in LaGrange and been loading my own since 1978-wheelguns, semi-autos and both bolt and lever rifles. Glad to give advice if needed. Was in Columbus today looking for powder at Shooters. They didn't have what I wanted so I got a nice ride home on the motorcycle thru Harris County.

Let us know when you get the Taurus up and running.

[Animal]

Taco 650, shooters is hurting bad on powders. I live in Harris County and would have loved to have been on my motorcycle. Hey, I'll send you a friend request and let you know when some powders come in. Do the same for me.

[starmac]

I have never been a taurus fan, but in this case it saved the shooter a bunch of heartache or worse. I can't fathom filling a barrel with lead before checking it out.
It would be hard to believe the barrel is not damaged, but possible I guess.
I don't see bore size actually being the cause either, maybe something like your scale is off or powder measure malfunctioned, it would be best to check out every possibility.

[GLynn41]

stuck bullets because of very light loads is not new-- you have not hurt the weapon-- I'd take to a good gunsmith and let him get the barrel clear and keep on shooting-- the gun is still the same gun-- I have a .41 wild cat --41/454 I learned especially with 212 gr cast hps that good bullet to case hold was an absolute-- after pushing several hps back out - the primer would go off - the powder would lump up and the bullet would move about 3'' -- so it happens - fix your gun and move on -IMHO-I have not slowed down on using my .410 GNR- and will not

[taco650]

Is there a gunsmith on post who could un-plug your barrel?

[preparehandbook]

I have unplugged a similar plug. Actually, I've done it a couple of times.

The method I would recommend for this situation (relatively large bore, long obstruction) is to make a simple cutter out of soft metal (brass) and hand rotate it to slowly remove the bulk of the obstruction.

Take a piece of brass round stock a little under bored diameter (maybe .350) and file one end until it looks like a flat tip screwdriver tip, keeping the cutting part short (maybe 1/8") You could get fancy with undercuts or even make a "plus" shape for 4 cutting edges, but it'll all work about the same.

Lube up the sides, stick it in the bore, twist it a half dozen times, pull it out, tip the muzzle down and spray out the chunks of lead with wd40. It will take a long time to get through, but it will work.

I once had to do a .22 that had 16 projectiles stacked up (flobert BBcaps) and I just sat in front of the TV and whittled away at it, it took a couple of three hours IIRC.

Alternatively you could make a couple of collars for a commercial reamer, but IMHO this is riskier as if it goes cockeyed you could easily damage your barrel.

I think you have a very good chance your barrel is undamaged due to the very low pressure, just clean it out and look for "rings"

If you need help coming up with a brass hand reamer I can lathe one up for you easily enough.

[ctious]

Remove the barrel. Then u can remove the bullets. And the live rounds from the cylinder. Screw it back in. Send off the Taurus and say your barrel is not aligned right. They will take care of it.

[ctious]

If u don't like of trust it anymore I would be willing to buy it from u.

[preparehandbook]

Yellow Brass (Copper Alloy #865)-
Yellow Brass, also considered a "Bronze", is 60% Copper, 33% Zinc, 2% Iron, 1.5% Aluminum, 1-5% Manganese, 1% Tin, .5% Nickel. Brinell Hardness of 100.

Copper-
Brinell hardness of around 40-50

I have done this before with jacketed bullets and the brass will happily chew through the copper jackets.

[MBTcustom]

Yellow Brass (Copper Alloy #865)-
Yellow Brass, also considered a "Bronze", is 60% Copper, 33% Zinc, 2% Iron, 1.5% Aluminum, 1-5% Manganese, 1% Tin, .5% Nickel. Brinell Hardness of 100.

Copper-
Brinell hardness of around 40-50

I have done this before with jacketed bullets and the brass will happily chew through the copper jackets.

This is a true statement, and his advice is the right way to approach the problem. I would take him up on it if I were you!

[preparehandbook]

tell me barrel length and I'll mail you a custom hand reamer for $0.00 + $0.00 shipping (it'll take about a week, a lot of guns on the bench right now)

[taco650]

tell me barrel length and I'll mail you a custom hand reamer for $0.00 + $0.00 shipping (it'll take about a week, a lot of guns on the bench right now)

In post #1 the OP says it's a 4" barrel.

[ASM826]

I read this thread with interest, and hope that the OP gives us a closing update on the removal of the obstructions and any subsequent repair.

[Animal]

ASM829, I got all the lead out but the jackets are pretty well stuck in place. I've been able to remove portions, but no great luck. I've already made up my mind that I'm going to replace the barrel, so I'm not too concerned about the consequences of scratching up the bore. Unfortunatly there is still a jacket that I've had no luck removing that is in the middle of the b/c gap. I've been working it a little at a time. When I get it out to where I can open the cylinder, I'll update the post.

[Animal]

Most recent update:

I gave the revolver to a buddy of mine that has enrolled in a gunsmithing school in Colorado. He'll start next year and try to make it a class project. We shall see the outcome!