Preparation for next SuperBlazing-Hubel-etc test: having issues...

[cpileri]

So I am working on my line up for my next shotgun slug tests. i am really excited to test not only more 12ga loads, but some 20ga as well. That's where I am running into trouble...
I managed to get a reamer and make a cylinder bore out of a 20ga barrel, turned out to be a nice and easy job.

Was checking for slug-in-wad fit by using the push back thru muzzle technique: Hogtamer's load of .570 round ball in a (no longer available) Lege wad was a nice slip fit. So those are ready to go.

I also want to try some .578 slugs in commander wads. Slug-in-wad fit is perfect, but i cannot even begin to push it back thru the bore. Way too tight.

Micrometered it out, and by measurements it should fit, but reality is that it wont. Tried pushing it foward from the breech, wont pass the forcing cone. Well, I should say that it MIGHT go through if I lined it up and whacked it w a hammer, but that's too tight. Isn't it?

SO I got to checking other slugs. I cut open a Remington 20ga slugger 5/8 oz. Slid right through w plenty of wobble room- undersized no doubt so it can be fired out of a choked barrel. I hope these obturate when fired otherwise they will be loose.

Tried a DGS slug, thinking "OK, this is a factory 20ga. this should work!" Nope. Wont go through either the muzzle nor the forcing cone! OK, these only have a thin band to swage down to bore size so they are probably still OK to fire. Or, I could pound a few through by hand, then load them and fire them as perfectly sized to my bore. i might do that actually. Still, on to my problem child: the .578 slugs.

But the .578 conicals wont swage so easily.

I even tried paper patching the .578 conical. It took 8 wraps of size "King" Zig-Zag papers to make a slip fit in the muzzle. Besides, I dont think a paper patched conical will be accurate in a smoothebore. I think I need the wad to make the shuttlecock effect for stabilization.

SO I am looking for either: 1. a thinner wad, with a wad cup that will accept the base fo the bullet without splaying the petals too wide; or, 2. a .570-.572 slug; or, 3. a sizer that can swage my .578's down to .570-.572.

Or something else?

Maybe another wad/slug combo? .535 and .550 slugs are out there. But my wad selection is currently limited.

Any suggestions appreciated!

C-

[hubel458]

BPI CSD 20ga wad uses the larger of the 54cal Minie/ML slugs.Might work.
I like them better than Commanders as they are tougher and shorter,
and can use more of slow powders.

OR Could Try some of the .575" Minies in Commander wad.,
some for sale on Gunbroker.Ed

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Elite Brother Musketeer Cpileri, here are some more of your choices:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/20gaNondiscardingsabotscopy_zps42b65323.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/20gaNondiscardingsabotscopy_zps42b65323.jpg.html)
take a good look, two or three drops of epoxy will convert it into a Non discarding sabot for 15 to 20 cents a load!

Those ideas are only Kosher for the most Elite Brotherhood family group and could be unhealthy to those who refuse to admit that they belong to the Elite Musketeer group, watch out for those who can't admit!

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.

Best regards,
Ajay
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We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[cpileri]

Thanks,ED!
CSD wad + 54-cal bullet
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/392884/bpi-shotshell-wads-20-gauge-csd-20-7-8-oz-steel-bag-of-250
and

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_311_313&products_id=1366
or
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_311_313&products_id=1353

One possibility for a fix.

I need to check friends nearby to see if someone has one of each to check fit. Although w the 12ga tests, i ended up buying everything myself and luckily most worked at least OK. I'm just trying to avoid buying a couple hundred $$ worth of components "just to try" this time.

We'll see how that plan goes.

C-

[cpileri]

And thanks Ajay!
So you used the Ideal bullet in a CSD wad for these?

Also, did you have any problems w the push-fit-test using 578-cal slugs in commander wads? Is your 20ga overbore? or rifled?

Thx!
C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Elite Brother Musketeer Cpileri, please note the backward push through method is only meant for smooth bore barrels as most are thin barrels for safety sake only.

When using a rifled barrel its not meant for and within limits of the dimensions its assumed safe, at least should be!

I do not personally own a 20 gauge smooth bore, only two 20 ga. rifled barreled guns.

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.

Best regards,
Ajay
SuperBlazingSabots,com
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl[/url]
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/[/url] ... wforum.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr[/url] ... ot!/page1
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961[/url]
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246[/url]
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/[/url]
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[cpileri]

Well, then, this is truly an experiment! I only have smoothebore 20ga to work with.

Of course, thats how my 12ga project got started, too!

You guys are costing me $$!
C-

[cpileri]

I cant seem to find any pre-cast ideal Bullets. but I will keep looking.

besides, that will let me save the 578's for the Hubel Sabot loads in 12ga.

Ajay, when is your 20ga sabot coming? I am setting aside some $$ for trying them out.

C-

[cpileri]

Found a .570 bullet:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=161971&CAT=4528
A little heavy, but we'll see!
C-

[cpileri]

So I got the reamer and made some cylinder bore 20ga barrels out fo what i could find. Still waiting for the CSD wads to fit test w .535 slugs, but everything else is here.
Proposed line up for the next tests include:


12ga Loads:

Load: 3.5” hubel sabot
Power Category: FH
Velocity and pressure: ?unknown? (but 55gr Steel gives ~2000fps)
Hull: 3.5” Rocky Mtn Ctg brass
Primer: 209-A
Powder & Charge: 60gr A.Steel
Wad column: x12x, cork/felt to height, tap in Hubel Sabot (very snug fit)
Load: 440gr .578 minie slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: none
Notes: looking for accuracy w the 3.5” chamber, hoping matching hull length will help w that. Will take these out to 50yds, too.


Load: Greg 1043
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: 1050fps/10.2Kpsi
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 54gr IMR 4227
Wad column: x12x, 3/32cork, .17Hard Nitro Card
Load: 1043gr hardcast lead slug, alox lubed, rolled in hBN
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: this is not a new load, but this test will be out at 50 yds. Its already my ‘go to’ load for 30yds.


Load: Greg 880 (3-4 variations)
Power Category: Barely From H_ll (*)
Velocity and pressure: 47gr Lil’Gun= 1320fps/13.3Kpsi, 70gr 4227=1419fps/14.2Kpsi, 63gr 4759=1500fps/15.2Kpsi
Hull: Fed 3”
Primer: Fed 209-A
Powder & Charge: 3 variations: 47gr Lil’Gun, 70gr 4227, or 63gr 4759
Wad column: x12x, cork, hard NC
Load: 880gr HC lead slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: I just wonder what the 1500fps load on this will be like. That’s just shy of 4400fpe! I just have to try it. (*) A “normal” load w this slug and components would be 28.5gr Longshot= 1054fps/8.3Kpsi


Load: Greg “glued” CSD wad
Power Category: Barely From H_ll
Velocity and pressure: 50gr-57.5gr Lil’Gun (57.5gr Lil’Gun=1625fps/14.8Kpsi)
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 50-57.5gr Lil’Gun
Wad column: CSD wad (unslit) w/ 32ga .125NC in bottom of cup, then 2x20ga .25” fiber under slug. All components glued together
Load: 625gr slug (~16ga, so .66" diameter), knurled to grip wad cup, also glued in
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll
Notes: I tried this one in a prior test and had a wad-slug separation resulting in a flier. I spoke to Greg, who suggested rolling the slugs on a rough file to knurl the sides; I added the glue.

20ga Loads:

Load: DGS 2.75” (5+ variations)
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: 25gr Longshot=1530fps/10.5kpsi, 28gr longshot=1625fps/11.1kpsi(*)
Hull: Fio 2.75”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 25gr-28gr Longshot
Wad column: attached to DGS slug by factory
Load: 7/8oz (382gr) DGS slug
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: OSD, roll
Notes: (*) according to BPI anyway. Other loads include: Blue Dot 27gr (=1500fps), IMR 4756 (23gr=1350fps, 30gr=1510fps), and Herco (21gr=1400fps/10.1kpsi)


Load: Ajay 3” (several variations)
Power Category: Blazing
Velocity and pressure: 31.6gr Steel=1523fps, 38.5gr 2400=1282fps/39.5gr 2400=1353fps, Blue dot:23-23.6gr=1069-1117fps AND (again blue dot:) 33-33.5gr=1491fps-1515fps, 4759: 58.6gr=1705fps (all velocities from 455-465gr slugs, so consider that when I test w 415gr slugs but same powder charge as Ajay used in 450+’s)
Hull: Fio 3”
Primer: 209-A
Powder & Charge: 31.6gr Steel, 38.5gr-39.5gr 2400, Blue dot:23-23.6gr AND 33-33.5gr, 4759: 58.6gr
Wad column: 28ga HCW into base of wad (over powder, if you will), then Commander or CSD wad depending on slug, 28ga HCW’s to raise slug to height
Load: 450gr .570minie ball in Commander wad, or 415gr .535 minie in CSD wad
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold
Notes: I am short on 3” 20ga hulls, so will test as many of these variations as I can


Load: Hogtamer’s original
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown, but 29gr longshot w 382gr slug gives 1650fps/11.5kpsi; so this is within normal
Hull: 2.75”
Primer: 209
Powder & Charge: 31gr longshot
Wad column: 20ga .125HCW over powder, then (obsolete) Lage Uni-wad which has a plastic cage in the cup to support the ball
Load: .570 lead round ball (279gr)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll or fold
Notes: Lage wads, generously donated by Hogtamer. See below for my attempt to replicate any success this load may have w available components.


Load: Hogtamer’s modified (2 variations)
Power Category: normal
Velocity and pressure: unknown as described above
Hull: 2.75”
Primer: 209
Powder & Charge: 31gr Longshot
Wad column: variation 1: 28ga HCW into bottom of Lage wad (over powder), otherwise no changes; or
Var 2: 28ga HCW in bottom of wad (overpowder), commander wad, HCWs to raise ball
Load: .570rb
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll or fold
Notes:

[cpileri]

Some info about those Lage Uni-wads.


Manufacturer: Farmer Bros.

Large Uniwad:A two-piece wad in 12 and 20 gauge comprised of a white exterior ribbed shotcup containing a red plastic cushion wad.

This design is intended for universal application with the inner cushion wad being compressed as needed to crimp various load combinations. The manufactuer provides the following advice:

1.when loading in a case with high basewad it is ncessary to crumple the legs of the red insert far enough to acommodate the desired amount of shot. This is done with the wad ram durring normal loading procedure.

2.when loading a case whith a low base wad (such as Win. AA, Federal, and Peters) care should be exercised not to crumple the legs of the insert too far, as this would leave too much space from top of shot to end of case. Use zero wad pressure.

And a picture:
82152

on one w the 570rb in it, and a bunch of other stuff ready to load for test 5 (which will be a new post).
C-

[Hogtamer]

I loaded DGS slugs in 16 ga - you won't be disappointed. 8 " @ 100 yds with just shotgun bead on mod. Fixed barrel, browning sweet sixteen. Looking forward to all results!

[hubel458]

If the .535" minies don't work for best accuracy,
in 20ga CSD use bigger sizes like .543",
.548", and .560" that are out there.Ed

[cpileri]

Can do, Sir!
Well, once I buy the slugs I can.
If I need to I will.
C-

[cpileri]

Hey look! new 20ga slug from BPI:
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/LC-Series-Thug-Slug-20ga-7_8oz-25_pk/productinfo/1262025/
Also in other guages. I was going to cut open some brenneke's but maybe these, though expensive, might work. I do NOT like the 'crumple' base though. I'd rather have a solid base and add cushions myself based on powder choice/velocity. Still, base can be removed.
C-

[cpileri]

More abt these slugs, as possible candidates for the next test:

Entry-level load data for THUG slug and some comparisons to other slugs

So I received the BPI pamphlet on THUG slugs which you can request if you purchase the slugs.

I noticed that there seemed to be very few powders I personally have on hand that I could use, so I checked into other slug load data. In particular I compared BPIs data for the 12ga 1&1/8oz THUG with their own w their 12ga 1&1/8oz DGS slug. I did the same with the 7/8oz 20ga THUG with their 7/8oz 20ga DGS.

Here is what I found:

---------------------------------------12ga 1.125oz DGS ----------vs------------------1.125oz THUG
Powder (common to both)----Green Dot 24gr=1320fps/10kpsi-----------------22gr= 1200fps/8kpsi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - “ “ - - 26gr=1400fps/10.5kpsi----
----------------------------------Internat’l Clays(*) 23gr=1345 / 9.9 ------------22gr= 1210 / 8.2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -“ “ - - - - - 27gr= 1450 / 11.1---
Powders not used in common:
-----------------------------------Unique 29-31gr=1430-1525 / 10.4-11
-----------------------------------PB 29.5gr = 1500fps / 11.4 kpsi
--------------------------------Univ. Clays (*) 28.5-33.5gr= 1520-1540/ 10.9-11.1
---------------------------------Longshot 38-40gr= 1625-1640/ 10.3-10.6
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------700X 20gr=1285fps/9.9kpsi
---------------------------------------------------------------------------Clays(*) 18-20gr=1160-1320/ 8.1-8.8kpsi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------E3 19-21gr=1270-1360/9.2-10.9
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Reddot 20-22gr=1255-1350/9.4-10.8
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Titewad 17-21gr=1170-1320/8.6-10.8


---------------------------------------20ga .875oz DGS ----------vs--------------------.875oz THUG
Powder (common to both)----Herco 21gr=1400fps/10.1kpsi-----------------22gr= 1345fps/9.3kpsi
---------------------------------------800X 23.5gr=1450fps/11.4kpsi-------------22gr= 1395 / 10.1
Powders not used in common:
-----------------------------------HS-6 29.5gr=1530 / 11.5
--------------------------------Univ. Clays (*) 23gr= 1500/ 10.9
--------------------------------Longshot 25-28gr= 1530-1625/ 10.5-11.1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------20/28 22gr=1415fps/9.5kpsi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------PB 20gr=1310 / 9.5 kpsi
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------ProReach 24gr=1495 / 10.3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Unique 24gr=1495 / 10.3

Looks like they got some data together, enough to make a couple pages, then stopped. Which is fine. No 3” data. And it looks like these can be driven harder/faster, too.

Maybe? Maybe not? Maybe the wad cant take the extra pressure or velocity? Maybe the lead is too soft ( I cant tell) and will lead the bore? I dunno.

What do you all think?

C-

(*) I always get mixed up, maybe someone can help me: these ‘Universal' and ‘Clays’ powders. Reloading manuals routinely abbreviate the names of the powders, esp these. SO here is my question: are these all different powders, or are some accepted abbreviations of others: Universal, Universal Clays, Clays, International Clays, etc etc?