Single action side of a Colt Official Police

[philthephlier]

I just picked up a 1967 Colt Official Police. First double action Colt in my collection. The gun maybe had a box of ammo through it in 45 years. Looks like it just came out of the box. My question relates to single action cocking. At the end of the cycle there is a noticeable "knuckling" felt just before the hammer gets fully cocked. I have shot other Colts before and noticed this in almost all except the Pythons. Does this break in or can this be removed by gunsmithing? After shooting S&Ws for more than 50 years without this issue I am finding this annoying. The Colt is mechanically perfect but not pleasant yet like the Smiths. Thanks for all input.

[waksupi]

It is designed as a double action. Shoot it as such.

[Char-Gar]

I am familiar with old style Colt lockwork and Smith and Wesson lock work, but I do not understand what "knuckling" is. But let me make a few comments and that may or may not address your question.

The Colt uses a hand/pawl with two steps on it. The first step engages the ratchet and moved the cylinder into line with the barrel. It is then the second or bottom shelf engages the ratchet and allows the cylinder to turn that last smidge where the bolt hole is in alignment with the bolt. It also holds the cylinder notch firmly against the bolt which rises from the bottom of the frame. I suspect it is the final metal on metal contact that you call "knuckling". There are three results of the second step doing it's thing.

1. With the hammer down and the trigger back, there will be no side play in the cylinder, none at all. This is unlike the Smith and Wesson that uses a hand with a single shelf/engagement surface.

2. This second shelf will take the recoil which in time will batter it and cause the cylinder to not fully rotate in slow single action cocking. This condition is called "second hand short".

3. There is a very definite change in feel as you cock the hammer, when the second step of the hand takes over.

As stated, I don't understand "knuckling", but I suspect what you feel is the second part of the hand, doing the final carry up of the cylinder and holding the notch firmly against the bolt. If this is the case, that is a design feature and you are stuck with it.

The Smith and Wesson lockwork does make for a smooth trigger pull in both the single and double action modes. With the old Colt lockwork there are two definite stages to both single and double action caused by the action of this two step hand.

The Smith and Wesson uses a single flat leaf spring and the Colt uses a flat V spring. But either spring can give a smooth trigger pull when everything else is right.

I do not agree with pistol was designed for DA shooting only. It was designed to be used either single or double action shooting and was very popular in the Bulleye target game for generations where the hammer was cocked each time and fired single action.

[KCSO]

That is the spring reaching the end of it's compression. It can be tuned by an expert in Colts with the right tools and plenty of spare springs. Bill Laughridge of Cylinder and Slide does these superbly. Now the bottom line is that the action job will cost as much as the revolver or more and will take a couple months turn around. Bottom line if you want a Python feel in the action buy a Python or pay the freight.

[Outpost75]

Grant Cunningham is another smith who does Colts properly.

[philthephlier]

It is designed as a double action. Shoot it as such.

Waksupi, Do you feel the same about all double action revolvers?

[MtGun44]

Colt has a hard lockup, as Char-gar says, and it can be problematic if set up
a smidge too tight as the two parts are fighting each other - at least potentially.

Again - hard to know what you mean - I have no idea what "knuckling" means
either.

Bill

[waksupi]

It is designed as a double action. Shoot it as such.

Waksupi, Do you feel the same about all double action revolvers?

Pretty much. Once you become accustomed to it, it is surprising how well you can do. I actually had a guy call a protest on me at a shoot because I was shooting double action. Probably because I won that particular part of the shoot.

[philthephlier]

As for the term knuckling I am referring to the sensation of the action having to get over a hump in the last 5 degrees or less of hammer rotation just before lockup. The experience is almost non existent in a S&W revolver and any that is felt is easily corrected by polishing the under side of the hammer sear and the little bump on the hammer. Since the lockwork I am told in the official police is the same as in the Python Colt does whatever they do to remove this in the Pythons. Sound like it is removable by qualified Colt armorers but I don't think it is worth it. This revolver has been shot so little it is clearly not broken in yet despite it's 45 years. I wonder what it will be like after a 1000 rounds have been through it.

[williamwaco]

Comparing a "Colt Official Police" to a Python is not fair.

You might find a smith that is good enough to make your Official Police feel like a Python but keep in mind there is a LOT more going on in there than the last 5 degrees.
Making that last five degrees feel like a Python will require a lot of work by some one with a finely tuned skill set.
It will not "Break in", it is designed that way.

If you just want a really slick Official Police, go for it.

If you want the finest, smoothest, slickest, production revolver ever made on this planet, get a Python, they are expensive but not hard to find.
An old friend of mine used to say that the Python felt like all the internal parts were made out of highly polished, oiled, glass.

AND that said, there ain't no flies on the Anaconda either.

[Rick Hodges]

I learned to shoot with a S&W....I have fired Colts, from Detective Specials, Diamondbacks, and yes even the much over rated Python. All the Colts have had a hitch in their giddyup. I have never found a Colt that was as smooth as a good S&W revolver. Now, automatics? The situation reverses itself.

[Char-Gar]

As for the term knuckling I am referring to the sensation of the action having to get over a hump in the last 5 degrees or less of hammer rotation just before lockup. The experience is almost non existent in a S&W revolver and any that is felt is easily corrected by polishing the under side of the hammer sear and the little bump on the hammer. Since the lockwork I am told in the official police is the same as in the Python Colt does whatever they do to remove this in the Pythons. Sound like it is removable by qualified Colt armorers but I don't think it is worth it. This revolver has been shot so little it is clearly not broken in yet despite it's 45 years. I wonder what it will be like after a 1000 rounds have been through it.

What you are feeling is indeed the hard fit of the second hand as it presses the cylinder notch against the bolt. With use the hand will shorten a smidge and will not be as noticeable, but will still be there. By the time it is all gone, so will be the correct timing and lockup gone as well.

This pistol does indeed have the same lockwork as the Python, but the Python received much more hand fitting than the OP which was designed as a police service pistol. It makes no sense to try and turn an OP into a Python, and to tell you the truth I am not that fond of Pythons. I have had four and have never kept any of them. I do however have three OPs at the present time. I appreciate them for what they are.

If this aspect of the old Colt design is bothersome to you, the best idea would be get rid of the pistol for something more suitable.

Here is my favorite Colt Official Police, a 5" 1954 vintage pistol. A good one!

[philthephlier]

I know Pythons get a great deal of attention and hence the high price. I am not suggesting I expect to turn the OP into one. I have known several people who own or have owned Pythons and the reports haven't been stellar. They go out of time, shoot loose with a steady diet of full horse power ammo and other items. I have fired Pythons without the issue I am dealing with and I have fired later model Pythons that did have the issue in question. Several years ago I took a 586 S&W and removed the barrel and put on a 6" Python barrel for an L Frame Smython. I have what I consider to be the nicest revolver I have ever owned. The accuracy is exeptional and the action is very, very nice.
I have 2 Model 10 38's and now the OP. I always wanted one and I will be happy with it for what it is, a 38 Spl. Service revolver. Thanks for all the posts. I definitely learned something about Colt lockwork I didn't know before.

[Char-Gar]

Colt made a handgun called "Trooper" which was an Official Police with a heavier barrel and adjustable sights. The Trooper, Official Police and Python are all built on the same frame. The Trooper was available in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum. The 357 Trooper had a floating firing pin in the frame whereas the 38 Special had a hammer nose firing pin like the OP. There are really nice old sixguns are available for much less money than a Python. Here is my 1956 Trooper in 38 Special. Those grips are the real deal Roper grips.

Of all the old lock work Colts, the Trooper is my favorite. They did make another pistol called the Trooper after they screwed up the lock work and those are not worth having.

[Char-Gar]

While we are doing old Colt, here is a 1947 Officers Model, again in 38 Special and with adjustable sights. The later Officers Model Match were better target pistols. Same frame as the Army Special/Official Police, Python, Old Trooper and several others. Yep and they all "knuckle" as you would say. Pythons vary greatly in quality depending on when they were made. Because the second hand receives the recoil, full snort 357 Magnum loads do shoot these things loose much quicker than 38 Special loads. If a fellow wants to shoot full snort 357 magnum loads he is better off with an N frame Smith or better yet a Ruger Blackhawk. Those will take the pounding. Best of all worlds is the Ruger Redhawk in 357 Mag. They didn't sell well when they came out, so not many were made, but today they are rather pricey being scarce. Now that is a brute strong DA 357 Mag sixgun.

[philthephlier]

Thanks for the pics. Here is a pic of each of the 2 guns I mentioned.8164981650

[felix]

Charles, I have one with "second hand short". Need advise about whom, what, when and where to fix it for me. ... felix

[onceabull]

I have long been a fan of the original Colt Troopers,and still own two, but lately The pricing has skyrocketed around here for those, Good onea bringing as much or more than a Trooper mkIII ( did the lock work change with the intro of the MkIII,or when that was replaced with the MkV ???) Onceabull

[Char-Gar]

Felix...The fix for "bottom hand short" is to remove the hand, place it on a flat metal surface and peen the flat spot to stretch the hand a tad and then refit. It is easy to mess up a hand, unless you are used to doing it. This used to be standard fair for ever local gunsmith, but folks who know their way around these things are fewer and fewer with each passing year. I noticed Outpost75 gave thumbs up to Grant Cunningham, so that might be a good place to look. Outpost in a fellow whose advice I would follow. I really can't recommend Cylinder and Slide for I have not had good experience with their work.

When refiting the hand it is left long enough to just be able to cock the pistol without breaking some part. i.e. fairly hard to cock. When they did this at the factory, they then smacked the muzzle sharply with it cocked), with a rawhide or wooden mallet a couple of times to seat the hand. As an alternative, several cylinders of full snort loads could be fired to finish the refit of the hand. Until they are worn some they will have some resistance the last little bit of cylinder rotation/hammer back. This is what the OP was calling "knuckling" in his post.

I have stretch by peening and refited several of the hands on my Colts over the years and would do it again. But I would not do it for anybody else, as I did break a hand once doing this. They can be the dickens to find now. I think I may have a factory new unfitted hand or two, but they are not going anywhere!!!!!

Onceabull....Yes, Colt changed the lock work as it involved costly hand fitting and brought out the Trooper MKIII. The first MKIIIs had sintered iron parts that produced an abdominal action. Colt soon back peddled from that, and did some changing of materials. I really did not follow the various changes as I were no longer interest in the newer Colt DAs, favoring the older lock work.

I have not followed the current pricing on older Colts as I have my stash and that last far longer than I have left. I don't think I paid more than $250 for any of mine, most far less. I have a number I did not picture including a good New Service and a primo 1917. Though bigger these pistols still use the same basic lock work. For fun here are their pics. Lots of blue wear on the NS but it is mechanically very sound. It is a 45 Colt and the 1917 is of course 45 ACP.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks for the pics. Here is a pic of each of the 2 guns I mentioned.8164981650

Thanks for the pics. The only really special thing about the Python was the barrel. They did a super job of polishing the bore before rifling and they used a 1-15 twist which works very well. They forced some sort of tungsten button through the bore to burnish it before rifling. I don't know if it is true or not, but I read many years ago these Python barrels were choke bore a tad. Of course Phythons varied allot over their production life.

The only Python I had I truly like was a 6" worked over by a guy named Moran. The DA trigger pull was so light, I didn't see how it could bust the primer, but it did each and every time. You could shoot this handgun DA every bit as good as you good in SA. Sadly I lost it in the Great D-Vorce of 94 and it could not be replaced and Moran had quit the business or died, I don't know what. There was another Python wizard in Texas named Reeves Junkline or something like that, but he is gone now. There was another guy in Sugerland Texas who went by Actions by T, that I heard was good, but he is gone as well. Mere mortals should not be allowed to mess with the innard of Pythons.

[Char-Gar]

Oh yes, the older Colts small frame Police Positive, Police Positive Special, Detective Special, Cobra, Agent and Banker had this same lockwork (though smaller). They had the same upsides and downsides as the larger framed pistols. Best small revolver ever made was the Detective Special and a 3" version is the best of the lot.

You may not be able to tell it from this thread, but I really like Smith and Wesson sixguns better.

[onceabull]

I came close to wearing out my old eyeballs trying to find an affordable(by my standards) 3"Old model Dick spec.to go with the 2" I carried 6-7 days a week for 12 years..Had given up the chase when I came up on a "remodeled" OM Police ***. spec. than had been cut back to 3",vent rib installed,& aftermarket adj.rear sight.. Gypsy dealer apparenty convinced prev.owner that "custom" work had ruined the gun..enjoyed it for 2-3 years,then decided to test the market by leaving it unpriced at the backside of my table(s) kind of half way hidden,at one of our really small town gunshows..I've always done well there,so wasn't really pressing for sales,when this raggedly looking farmer type strolls up,(not fooling me ,though,cause I had already taken note of how his lady was dressed and the bling she displayed..He sort of glances things over,then says,what's that little thing in the back,,,I hand it to him and get hit with[smilie=s: "how much will you take"..Bad start for him, because the retort is "what's your offer"..He says "can you do $525", I didn't even let him put the revolver down...BUT, I STILL miss it...[smilie=s: Onceabull

[philthephlier]

I have cycled the action about 400-500 times without dry firing the revolver and the issue is noticeably better on 4 chambers, the other two still feel the same. Either the second shelf on the hand is wearing or the ratchet is wearing or more likely they are both wearing. As I said in the first post the gun has probably one, maybe two boxes through it. I took it apart and detail cleaned it and removed some burrs from the frame recesses and very lightly polished the hammer pin and frame recesses. There was a small piece of what was a burr on the inside of the frame that was loose upon opening the action but after putting it all back together everything still feels basically the same. Thanks again for the posts.

[bhn22]

There was another Python wizard in Texas named Reeves Junkline or something like that, but he is gone now.

That would be Reeves Jungkind of Llano, TX. I believe he may be retired now. He would be in his late '80s now.

BTW, I'm a DA revolver guy too. It feels a bit strange to lock back a hammer anymore, In fact, I ended up selling off my single-actions because I couldn't figure out how to make them go "bang" anymore[smilie=l:

[MtGun44]

+1 on stretching the hand. I did an old Police Positive and got it working properly.
Colts are a bit of a PITA to work on the lockwork. There is a reason they don't make
them any more, too much hand fitting to make them work right when they wear.

Bill

[leftiye]

I just got through rescuing a junk Official Police 32-20. The recoil lever and bolt didn't even reach each other (had two of each which were supposed to be good, from Numrich). The fix was to anneal the middle of the recoil lever (which powers the trigger return and controls the bolt movement), and hammer it until it stretched and reached the end of the bolt and then a little. No hump at full cock BTW. Corrected headspace, set barrel back and set cyl. gap, and made a new cylinder latch pin (oversize with frame reamed slightly to straighten out wear and remove play).

BTW, Smiths do have the "second hand" mentioned here. It is a shelf on the side of the hand.

[Dutchman]

Everybody should own at least one Colt so you'll appreciate your S&W more :)

Mfg 1929 was armored car guard gun. Bought it as a holster gun.

http://images58.fotki.com/v513/photos/4/28344/8945429/DSCF1903p-vi.jpg

[Char-Gar]

That would be Reeves Jungkind of Llano, TX. I believe he may be retired now. He would be in his late '80s now.

BTW, I'm a DA revolver guy too. It feels a bit strange to lock back a hammer anymore, In fact, I ended up selling off my single-actions because I couldn't figure out how to make them go "bang" anymore[smilie=l:

Yep das the fellow. IIRC he was/is retired DPS guy.

[MtGun44]

Once again, I agree with Dutchman. I DO like my Colt revolvers, but I also see that my
S&Ws are better guns in many ways. It is easy to see why the Colt's are no longer in
production, too much hand fitting needed at the factory to make it work these days.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Once again, I agree with Dutchman. I DO like my Colt revolvers, but I also see that my
S&Ws are better guns in many ways. It is easy to see why the Colt's are no longer in
production, too much hand fitting needed at the factory to make it work these days.

Bill

Colt is just a shadow what it once was, surviving off AR platform military and police sales, 1911 sales and nostalgia SAA sales. When the retired their old lockwork, due to it fragile and costly hand fitting nature, they never did come up with a DA sixgun that could compete with Smith and Wesson, plus Ruger was beating the to death with price. They also had some massive union problems.

So, these old Colts are a blast from the past to be enjoyed for what they are. Move on from nostalgia and Smith and Wesson and Ruger are the way to go. I would not hunt up on of these old lockwork Colts (including the Python) for a serious shooting pistol.

[MtGun44]

Char-Gar is right on target, again. I have a few Colt revolvers for nostalgia and just to learn
enough to have an opinion on the lockwork. Now that I have done some repairs and tuning, it
is clear that they are outdated and will wear relatively more rapidly than S&W or Ruger.
Only my Cobra is a serious working tool, and it is a very good one at that. Too bad they would
cost $1200 to reproduce today with that lockwork.

Bill

[Scharfschuetze]

Regarding the OPs original question, I used a Colt Python (same lock work as the OP) for a few years in PPC competition. I sometimes used the single action mode at the 50 yard stages and I never had an issue with it properly indexing, locking or firing. When the L Frame Smiths came out, I gladly traded the Python for a 6" 586 and never looked back. Now? I sure wish I had kept that Python if only for the memories.

I'm not sure what Colt's business strategy has been for the last several decades, but it sure hasn't been to succeed. That said and as noted above, union and employee issues haven't helped either. During my police career, one of my fellow officers grew up in Hartford and he once told me that if I ever saw the employees that got off of the buses in front of the Colt factory at shift changes, I'd never ever consider buying a Colt. I think that they are getting back on track now, but they sure lost some ground in the last few decades.

That said, here's my Colt Official Police with some of my old police paraphernalia. It's been in the family since the late 50s when my father-in-law bought it and it remains unfired to this day. It was given to me in that rather despicable condition and I guess I'll hand it down to my son in that same condition.