Stuck in point form die

[clodhopper]

Surely the pscologists have term for people who are told don't do something, then they just have to go do it so they can understand why.

Okay, I am that guy.


Read in a post by BTSniper about removing bullets stuck in point form dies just before my dies arrived.

Recived a nice set of RCECO 6mm 8s dies a few weeks ago.

The biggest problem is lack of lube.
Excess lube may dent your bullet, but at least you get a bullet. It is easy to use less lube and save dented bullets for offhand practice.

It is difficult to use more lube once a bullet is stuck in the point form die. On Brian's reccomendation, I find it a good practice to put a little glob on the external punch while trying to get a bullet out.

Counter intuitivty, to get a bullet out, first you must push it farther in.
The jacket nose needs to close up enough for the slim ejection punch to get a good purchase.

If you push the bullet farther in the die, and the ejection punch is still up inside the bullet. Jammed into the lead, because you just tried to push the bullet out and lead was what your punch had to push on, the bullet is tightly formed around the ejection punch, most likley excess lead was forced into the small hole where the ejection punch comes through the die. Now it's stuck really good...Welcome to my place!
I have done this three times in three weeks. And managed to get it out with about 2 hours of trial and error each time. With knowledge and just doing the right steps, this process should be quicker.

Anybody want to share?

[Cane_man]

when i get a stuck case in the pointing die i just screw in a 1-1/4" dry wall screw to the base of the bullet, grab the head with pliars, then tap the pliars with a hammer and the bullet comes out...

to prevent stuck bullets in the pointing die these are my two best tips i learned (the hard way):

-make sure the seated cores are spotless clean, this means either tumble with stainless pins or ceramic media so they are bright and shiny... absolutely no scale from annealing, or greasy grime from swaging

-you can treat the inside of your dies with moly bore lube treatment (Brownells), makes a noticeable difference in how easy it is to eject the cases

if the die is working correctly you don't want to form the meplat around the ejection punch imo...

[clodhopper]

Cane, what diameter bullets you useing the screw on?
I'm still a little creeped out useing the screw method in my 6mm dies. When looking down the die I can see the ejection pin does not pierce the base of the bullet in the center.
Have been making ejection pin replacements, adding lube, pushing the bullet in farther then pushing it out with the ejection pin

[Cane_man]

i have done this in my .224 point forming dies without any problems...

if you clean your cases bright and shiny, and moly treat your dies then your stuck bullet problems will go away... :)

[clodhopper]

I have been cleaning in Stainlees steel media with dawn and lemishine, have not done the moly.
Still think it's lube, duhh, moly is lube!

[supe47]

I lube my set-up bullets generously. Once the die is set right you can decrease the amount of lube you use. I only lube the lower portion of the bullet when point forming. Your die should tell you when you need to use more lube. My 22's eject with very little effort.

[Sitzme]

One practice in machine design is to provide a hole and a grease zerk so that grease can be pumped in to release a press fit part. Grease guns can develop 10,000 psi. This is enough to eject pins (bullets), bearings, and other press fit parts. It seems to me that an adapter could be made to fit in place of the ejector pin, so that a grease gun could be used to eject the stuck bullet. I have seen situations where the the cross drilling and tapping was done in order to fix a part that didn't have the setup built in.

Everyone who uses this idea now owes me a beer!

[clodhopper]

It's the set up, I have not been starting with a nice slippery one.

[supe47]

Been there, done that. Learned to make my set-up bullets extra slippery. The only bullets I stuck were on set-up.

[kweidner]

been there done that. If stuck really bad try this. take die out. place leather glove in bench vice, snug die down. Use super sharp bit and drill SLOWLY carefully drill through brass till you reach lead. blow off any brass chips w compressor or canned air. spray down with PB blaster. Use a bunch. Start drywall screw in pilot hole. Let set for 10 minutes and try to calm yourself while PB does the penetrating job. insert die upside down from ram side with screw coming out of top of press so just screw is exposed not die. Grab screw with needle nose vice grips. put leverage block between top of press and vice grips. Leverage is your friend. gently pull up against leverage block. It will come right out. Clean die really well. Use more lube for first coul,e bullets till you know setup is right who cares if you waste one or two at least you will not get one stuck. This works everytime I have stuck one. Could be worse you could have scratched the inside of your very expensive die. YRMV

[kweidner]

btw have done this with .224. no worries with pilot hole.

[perotter]

One practice in machine design is to provide a hole and a grease zerk so that grease can be pumped in to release a press fit part. Grease guns can develop 10,000 psi. This is enough to eject pins (bullets), bearings, and other press fit parts. It seems to me that an adapter could be made to fit in place of the ejector pin, so that a grease gun could be used to eject the stuck bullet. I have seen situations where the the cross drilling and tapping was done in order to fix a part that didn't have the setup built in.

Everyone who uses this idea now owes me a beer!

Thanks for the tip.

[Randy C]

:popcorn:

[Sitzme]

One other trick that can be used with sizing dies is to freeze it and then tap out the stuck case. I wonder if that would work for stuck bullets, maybe in combination with other methods. I have not used this method in a while since becoming more adept at lubing.

Also would it work to put a short section of brass hobby tubing in the die to help protected while drilling, etc? I forget the brand but K&S or something like that. It is at every real hardware store or hobby shop.

[Sitzme]

Another thought. Punch the end out of a bullet jacket to use as a drill pushing. Those might be more available! :-o

[GerryM]

The problem is the way you decided to unstick the bullet from the punch.
You must rotate the punch { ejection pin} and get it loose before turning the die down to allow the bullet to go up farther into the die and close the tip.
The pin must be free form the bullet before you adjust the die down.
Your lube may also be the problem and how you apply it.
work best fro me Anhydrous lanolin you can get it in a health food store.

[alfloyd]

Also, while adjusting your dies to get the point right, DO NOT run the same slug into the point die more than once. The second time you run the slug into the point die, it is already too big to work right and will get stuck.
Ask me how I know.

Lafaun

[clodhopper]

Also, while adjusting your dies to get the point right, DO NOT run the same slug into the point die more than once. The second time you run the slug into the point die, it is already too big to work right and will get stuck.
Ask me how I know.

Lafaun

Wow, there it is, the stuck bullets are bullets I have run back in the die in an attempt to close up the point!
Never stopped to think about that last little bit of expansion having taken place last time they were in the die.
I see a small, steady, supply of not quite formed bullets subitable for offhand practice.

[Sitzme]

After having some issues here is my safer variation on the sheet rock screw method.

1. Find a piece of steel or brass tube .125 id with an od that slips into the die. The one that I found is enough under size that I put a couple of wraps of tape on it.
2. Cut the tube long enough that there is enough shank to grip a .125 drill bit and leave about .25 of the bit exposed for drilling the stuck bullet.
3. Grind all of the threads off a 2" sheet rock screw except about .25 at the point.
4. Drill the bullet using the tube as a bushing then remove it.
5. Very carefully turn the screw in about 2-3 turns while you watch to be sure that is doesn't contact the die.
6. I am using a drill chuck on a mill to pull and the vise to hold the die but using the swaging press ejector should work also.

Doing it this way gives me a centered hole in the bullet that is deep enough but not too deep and using the mill gives a nice straight pull. A drill press with a vise or some creative hold down should work.

[tiger762]

I anneal 22LR brass still in the "as swept off the floor" condition. I then wet-tumble. Heat gun to dry. Lanolin to lube. Have done tons of 224/22LR. Never had a problem. I am convinced that dirt/scale acts like tiny little wedges (think of a door stopper) that embed into the brass/gilding. I swage with one hand wearing a rubber glove that always has a coat of lube all over it. There's also a "feel" I am used to by now. Think of it as "resistance versus depth". At "X" distance into the point form die, there should be "Y" resistance. If I get to a point and it feels like there's 1.5*Y, I back the heck off 'cuz the resistance versus depth curve now has too high a slope. As long as you recognize the condition, you can still eject the bullet.

[Sitzme]

I think my problem is in the core seating. I did this batch using the rule of thumb that the bullet should just stick in the die when the punch is withdrawn. I am going to try some more this evening seating the core so that it doesn't stay with the die. I had some startup problems, then things when well with the last batch. Now trouble again. I will get it sorted and take better notes this time. I also need to verify the ideal od of the bullet after core seating.

After the first two stuck, I though one was going to jam up with only 1/3 of the ogive formed. Will be watching the handle pressure very closely this evening. I remember that last time very little pressure was needed. I also verified that the cores are dead soft.

Next on the list is a sizing die to bring the 150 over sized ones down to a useful od. I can see why people set up using two presses.

[Sitzme]

Decent results now. Had more issues with sticking but was sneaking up on the point so the trick of using lube (Sinclair Sizing Wax) to free the sticky bullets was working and I didn't have to drill and screw any. Then there was one that didn't want to move and the wax was kind of squirting out. There was a wax ring for a toilet on the bench so I thought why waste the expensive stuff for this op. The bullet broke free but I had beeswax on my hand and in the die. Next bullet did better so I switched to the beeswax and swaged about 120 without any problems. I can't see any difference on the bullets but it sure seemed to make a difference when pointing them. I still think there was an issue with too much expansion during the core seating but running them all through a Lee .224 lube/size die saved the ones that were ready. The beeswax worked well enough that I repointed all the bullets used for setup without any problems.

Surely someone has tried beeswax before. Is there a reason it is not mentioned as a lube? Too thick?

[aaronraad]

[QUOTE=Sitzme;2733101
Surely someone has tried beeswax before. Is there a reason it is not mentioned as a lube? Too thick?[/QUOTE]

Beeswax is one of the two main components in the lubricant I'm supplied with.

Richard also has a good list of lubricants http://rceco.com/img/RSBook12.pdf

[clodhopper]

My problems seem to have dwindled away since taking the point form die and polising the interior of it with flitz metal polish.