Smokeless powder in damascus barrel shotguns

[Reg]

It has been mentioned in another thread about using smokeless powder in older damascus barrel shotguns. For as long as I can remember this has always been considered something one simply does not do but with the development of newer powders and especially if one keeps a different train of thought in mind and also others are doing it with apparent success I wonder if it cannot be successfully and safely done.
The powders and loads others are using are something I know nothing of and would like to learn more. What are these loads, and estimated pressures ?
My particular train of thought is not to try to duplicate any standard load but rather use very light loads and I do mean light. It has been mentioned to keep loads under 9000 lbs.
I have a very fancy old German double hammer gun that years ago I used for everything from doves to pheasants but only with charges of black. The barrels are clean with no apparent pits in them. Don't know why but I just don't feel comfortable shooting 2 3/4 dram loads in it any more and also don't like cleaning the bores with hot soapy water after each session.
For for those of you out there doing, how are you doing it ?
Thanks
Reg :???::???::???:

[groovy mike]

81357Standard target loads will be fine in your damascus barrelled gun if it is in sound mechnical condition with no pits or dents so long as you don't put an obstruction in there and then fire a load behind it.

[john hayslip]

You could buy Damascus barrels at almost any price years ago. I read a series of articles in a shotgun Mag years ago where some one took a bunch of quality Damascus barreled shotguns and test fired them. His conclusion was that if the gun was in reasonably good condition and was from a quality maker that they were as strong as fluid steel barrels. The question seemed to be what was the quality of the barrel originally.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would like to hear from some real live shotgun smiths on this one.

My understanding of Damascus barrels is that they are hammer welded out of strips of metal wrapped around a mandrel. If this was done in a controlled process by a machine which could do the same thing over and over it seems to me that the barrels produced would be strong enough for just about anything that a tubular material is good for.

The big difference would be in the actual material used. Tubular steel barrels are made from high strength Cro-Moly steels. I doubt that Damascus barrels were made from anything above mild steel. Mild steel 1018-1020 has a tensile strength of 60,000 psi and cannot be heat treated other than by carburizing (case hardening) which would not be appropriate for a barrel of any kind.

The lowest grade of Cro-moly steel, 4130, is over 120,000 psi.

This in itself would suggest that new barrels are stronger than old barrels.

However, are the old barrels strong enough for what you want to do? maybe?

Problem with all of this is,,,you don't know. This is why we need to hear from a knowledgeable shotgun smith who knows exactly what to look for in a Damascus barrel. There must be telltale signs that make it so you can decide if the gun is safe or not.

Now if the gun was a quality gun and you have shot it with BP then It wouldn't be too hard to make smokeless loads that were safe.

Randy

[webfoot10]

Most of the old Damascus barreled guns had 21/2 in chambers, Firing a light smokeless 23/4 in shell will raise the pressures
high enough to split the barrels. I have a double barrel with fluid steel barrels and the 2 1/2 in chambers, shooting skeet
the pressures caused the soldering holding the barrels to give way. So be careful with guns with 2 1/2 in chambers. A safe
way to shoot them is with brass shells as they are 2 1/2 in length, and are available from Mag-Tec.
webfoot10

[mongoosesnipe]

I read an article a while back where a parker Damascus and regular steel shotguns form the same era were tested to failure by moving up with pressure test loads sttarting at sammi spec and moving up in 2000 psi incraments if I remember corectly the steel had booth barrels let go at 38,000 psi and the Damascus gun had on barrel go at 36,000psi ant the second barrel failed at the 38,000 psi the tested concluded that there was near as doesnt matter no difference in the strength between the 2 though the sampling size was small one can assume 3x margin of safety

That being said there are other wear factors such as frame streach but in the end preasure is preasure and weather its generated with black powder of smokeless has very little consequence

[mongoosesnipe]

Most of the old Damascus barreled guns had 21/2 in chambers, Firing a light smokeless 23/4 in shell will raise the pressures
high enough to split the barrels. I have a double barrel with fluid steel barrels and the 2 1/2 in chambers, shooting skeet
the pressures caused the soldering holding the barrels to give way. So be careful with guns with 2 1/2 in chambers. A safe
way to shoot them is with brass shells as they are 2 1/2 in length, and are available from Mag-Tec.
webfoot10

The chambers either need to be opened up to 2.75 or short shells should be used another popular option is to use the mini shotgun shells http://www.midwayusa.com/product/255579/aguila-minishell-ammunition-12-gauge-1-3-4-5-8-oz-7-1-2-shot-box-of-20 that or if you are reasonably handy you can trim down standard plastic shells to an appropriate length and use a roll crimp and overshot card to secure them

[KCSO]

Here's the rub, at one time damascus barrels were STRONGER than regular or lap welded barrels as the forging required tended to drive out the slag inclusions in the barrel. A new damascus barrel can easialy be as strong and tough as a solid steel tube, but...

You don't have a new barrel you have a barrel forged and soldered together up to 100 years ago and designed and shaped for B/P pressures. You hae no idea what the barrel looks like on the inside under the ribs, did soldering flux eat into the barrel< You don't know. So the general advise is B/P only because of the mostly low pressure and the distribution of the pressure in the barrel. A good gunsmith can ring a barrel and give you an idea if the gun is stil sound, I watched V M Starr do this and learned what to lokk and listen for, but that is only an idea and needs to be followed with proof firing.

I have a damascus gun that gets shot with smokless powder. The load develops about 8000 psi and uses WW 452 AA powder. I have both rung and visually inspected the barrels and then proof fired them with loads in the 12,000 range so I feel safe firing my handloads in them. What YOU do is up to you but IF you have the barrels inspected and proofed they should stand up to smokless loads IF they are kept in good condition. Back in the day you could buy new damascus guns proofed for smokless.

IMHO most damascus guns blown up with smokless powder were blown up by misuse and a handy excuse. I tested a setof damascus guns one time when I was tasked with destroying them. I had everyting from a loose shaky American Arms Double to a fine old Charles Daly. None of the guns came apart with standard loads. I finally got the A/A to split apart with 3" magnums and the C/D held 4 loads of 3" before we gave up and torched it. I have shot many original damascus M/L shotguns with up to 102 grains of FFG and never had one come apart or bulge in any fashion.

Your other options are to use a replica b/p of your choice.

[Reg]

Yes, the chambers are 2 1/2" and I have plenty of brass shells, what I am needing is loads that have proven safe in other such guns.
Have carefully checked and the tubes look very good inside and out, no dents or pits. Carefully held vertical and tapped with a nylon hammer they have a ringing sound much like a bell. Also it has been fired with 2 3/4 dram loads in black.
The action is tight.

[elk hunter]

The British still reprove, for modern smokeless powder, and shoot damascus barreled shotguns that are quite old, but they don't load them with ammunition that would be at home in an anti-aircraft gun. American shooters are afflicted with a bad case of "more is better" when it comes to the amount of lead or the velocity it is pushed to for shooting at game, witness the 3 1/2" 12 gauge. The British stick with loads that have been killing birds since the invention of gunpowder, most of which would not meet with approval on this side of the pond, they would be regarded as too wimpy. There are lots of smokeless loads that have proven safe in sound damascus guns, you just have to search them out. If you choose to shoot old guns you must be both cautious and prudent when selecting what you use in them be it black or smokeless.

[MT Chambers]

The loads that I remember used IMR 7625, with speeds of between 1050 and 1100fps, and pressures around 6000 lup.

[fryboy]

KSCO pretty much covered it ,
lite loads on a good barrel ? sure ! there are some powders that offer lower pressures with decent velocities , WSL used to be one of them , clays international is still current and while hodgdon offers limited loads with 2 1/2" and 2" shells most of the data i glanced at seems a lil stiff to me , reaming it to 2 3/4 would simplify it it and then choose a low pressure load ( talk about sweet shootin' !! umm i have a couple loads if you go that route ) as always it's best to err on the side of caution , the umm proof testing can be done muzzle loader style ( tire and string of a safe distance length )
i have a few barrels i dont consider sound , i always thought forging them flat would be a cool way to make a damascus sword blank but decorations and look pretty's arent high on my to do list [shrugz]