Load development analysis and question: progressive increases of Longshot

[cpileri]

So i was compiling load data from BPI, and i noticed something that led me to a few questions.
Consider this progressive increase in [owder charge of Longshot, with apparently necessary changes in components vs performance.

2.75" Fio hull, Fio 616 primer, X12X gas seal, 33gr Longshot, 500gr slug in BPI Sabot, clear OS Disc, Roll crimp (gives 2600fps at 10.4Kpsi)

Ok, same everything except 35gr Longshot gives 2650fps at 11.2Kpsi

now change to 3" Fio hull, add another X12X to make crimp height w/ 38gr Longshot= 2350fps/ 9.7Kpsi!
now change to 3" federal hull, all else same except 40gr Longshot= 2350fps/10.6kpsi
next is same fed hull except 42gr Longshot= 2450fps/11.6kpsi
finally, change to 3.5" hull and add more wads (*) and 44gr Longshot= 2400fps/11.4kpsi
and same but 46gr longshot= 2550fps/12.5fps

So we never got any better velocity than the 35gr load in a 2.75" hull? Why waste the powder?

Sure, maybe hull length, chamber fit/free bore affects accuracy so that could be the reason to change components in and of itself; but leaving that aside for the moment as a reason to change hull lengths: can ever increasing velocity be achieved after 35gr Longshot (up to what 2800-3000fps with 46gr? just guessing) by using low-friction cork/felt wads and maybe hard card wads as opposed to doubling or tripling the number of X12X's?


(*) i will get the exact wadding mixes, but you get my point, right? ever increasing powder charges but losing load efficiency by adding so much high-friction gas seals, etc. Why waste the potential velocity gains>?

C-

[Hogtamer]

Exactly why I don't own 3" chambered shotguns - get all the bang for less money and less bulk afield with 2 3/4 " shells. 3" Magnum sounds cooler though...BTW Carl, any report from 20 ga loads??

[hubel458]

Doubling up X12X seals increases friction a huge amount,
if more stuff is needed to take up room must use felt or nitro wads,
as they are low friction.The only seals to double up are BPGS.

And the math doesn't bear out the speed they claimed at the
low pressures claimed in the 2 3/4" case with that amount of powder.
And in longer cases with room for more wads you
have to add more powder to get speeds wanted.
Longer cases, more room is designed for more volumn
of slower powder.

What I'm saying is with one specific sabot/slug, if you
change case length, it "usually" needs a powder change
to make any big gains wanted, rather than changing the
amounts of the same powder...Which is why I
always do my load development by what many consider
backwards, starting with slowest powder first, that
will fire with shotgun primers, in the particular case
diameter, and going to next slowest, etc.Ed

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Cpileri, you are scheduled to be sworn-in for Knighthood this Friday morning at 11 AM by the Elite Musketeer Brotherhood Group.

I like your observation on those number's.

There are two ways to do load development:
1. The easiest way is by doing it all in Dream land, the number's come out looking very good and its short and quick, every one is H a p p y !! ( Also known as BPI way )
2. Now this old way is a whole new ball game, its hard work and takes much longer and you'll have to make many trips to the range, unpredictable results till you get things right, most people would not want the hassle of this way testing as its too slow.

A. lets take a look here:

A Bullet or Round ball of equal weight with the same charge of powder should give the same or close to the same velocity, right?
If you use the same OP wad and the nitro card should help get the same velosity.

1. 12-23/4” Fio. Bro Fio. 616 37 gr Longshot .678” RB of 460 gr in Commander wad with 2-.125-16 plus 1 .1/16” and 8 point fold crimp! 1418 fps
2. 12-23/4” Fio. Bro Fio. 616 37.5 gr Longshot .678” RB of 460 gr in Commander wad with 2-.125-16 plus 1 .1/16” and 8 point fold crimp! 1404 fps
3. 12-23/4” Fio. Bro Fio. 616 38 gr Longshot .678” RB of 460 gr in Commander wad with 2-.125-16 plus 1 .1/16” and 8 point fold crimp! 1410 fps
4. 12-23/4” Fio. Bro Fio. 616 38.5 gr Longshot .678” RB of 460 gr in Commander wad with 2-.125-16 plus 1 .1/16” and 8 point fold crimp! 1591 fps
5. 12-23/4” Fio. Bro Fio. 616 39 gr Longshot .678” RB of 460 gr in Commander wad with 2-.125-16 plus 1 .1/16” and 8 point fold crimp! 1616 fps

Guess what, shooter's here gladly pay for BPI loading pamphlets $12.95 and proudly say they have 4 or 5 BPI pamphlets, they are buying Dreams that help's them sleep better without a sleeping pill ! ! !

Don't trust every thing you read.
Life is too short but you can trust this guy, his " Balls are too small "
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?191963-My-balls-are-too-small
Its not every day I get a laugh like this, go ahead treat yourself to this refreshing treat!
It took me days to recover from this experiance!

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here, we'd rather not buy the Dream pamphlet and use a sleeping pill to sleep like a Elite Musketeer baby.

Best regards,
Ajay
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http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/[/url]
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[cpileri]

Thanks All!
I wondered if BPI might be cooking theor data.
Esp because I also found more recent BPI data that shows this:
using 7/8oz LBC sabot (so 385gr, plus sabot; much lighter than 500gr in a sabot)
3" hull, 45gr Longshot= 1800fps/ 10.1kpsi
" " 48gr " " = 1980fps/ 10.3kpsi
" 50gr " = 2000fps/ 11.0
up to 3.5"hull, 60gr Longshot= 2140-2170fps/ 12-12.5kpsi (depending on the exact hull)

Not even close to the old numbers.

So bottom line(s):
1. BPI data might not be accurate
2. Multiple X12X's increase friction and reduce velocity
3. using cork/felt to increase height may at least maintain velocity numbers for a given powder charge when movign to a longer hull
4. utilizing increreased hull volume for more powder can be safe to increased velocity, as long as its a slower powder and safe pressure-wise

Am I missing anything?

C-

[cpileri]

Hogtamer,
Thanks for the sample pack. Neat little plastic cage thingy to go in the wad to make ball correect height for crimp.

I havent shot any yet because I mic'd out my 20ga barrels and found I have no open cylinders: one is Modified choke, one is ??I dunno? but probably modifed (its an old Savage Model 94 or something). Cane even begin to insert the wads backwards thru the muzzle for bore fit. So I am awaiting the arrival of my 20ga reamer to make cylinder bores out of the modifieds. Then I will load up and take pictures, etc.
C-

[OnHoPr]

If you give a hundred reloads to 20 ballistic technicians (5 rounds each), they will come up with 20 different data aspects. Most of them will be in the same general readings, a few might have quite different readings.

cpileri: "Sure, maybe hull length, chamber fit/free bore affects accuracy so that could be the reason to change components in and of itself; but leaving that aside for the moment as a reason to change hull lengths:" that is a statement in itself.
I think it would be hard to get any 500 gr boolit going 2600 fps in a 2 3/4" hull regardless of powder or wad column or with longshot. Yes it is a low loading density powder and one of the slower shotgun powders, but still working in the 10 k range for 3" guns and 14 k for 3 1/2" guns it would be difficult.

Generally speaking it takes 1.5 to 2 grs of powder (the slower shotgun powders) to gain 50 fps. Some of the contributing factors are like the difference of the W209 and a Fed 209A, the harder plastic base wad of a remington game hull and the softer federal paper base hull, and the multitude of wad columns. But, once you go over a certain threshold of the pressures to get the speed then things change.

The 3" and 3 1/2" guns are better adapt for gaining speed generally speaking. Are they as efficient as the 2 3/4", that is for the individual to decide. I know wind plays havoc with slow moving low BC projectiles. I know you need a GOOD scope on the 3 1/2" gun. Just like it wouldn't be wise to put a bsa on a 454 casull or 500 S&W. Also, I use a lead sled for testing because it does get to me after a few shots, but I don't have any problem with recoil on game. Another reason is that in general the 2 3/4" loads start dwindling at about 100 yds in energy. So, if you have wind and dwindling energy just past a 100 yards then more accuteness is necessary in a hunting situation. Most of the deer I shoot are in the short 100 to Long 100 yard range. Peering into thick brush all day can be tiresome. That doesn't mean that I won't shoot a deer at 25 yards or that after sitting 6 days on the stand and I see a 6 point at a 185 yards that I don't want to shoot. Also, tracking terrain has a play in the scenario. A lot of shotgun hunting in the midwest, south, and NE has cedar, ash, popple, tag alder, cypress swamps and the like (as well as texas scrub) where tracking can be difficult so the improved energy pass 100 yards can be advantageous. Thirty years ago slug guns were having difficulties reaching the 100 yard mark, now it is quite common practice to shoot accurately at a broadside deer at that range. This era of single projectile shotgun shooting is now starting to hit the 200 yards mark. The mindset of the slug shooter is over a hundred years old since Brenneke of only about 50 yards and brushy terrain. Just in the last 20 years has this mindset began to expand its range.

You have the full bore slugs which can attain good accuracy and range but with a higher level of ballistics knowledge, like turbo 1889 and the such.

You have primers and powders ranging from green dot to rel 17. You have hulls of paper, brass, and plastic. And you have an array of wad columns, plus some that haven't even been thought of yet.

Then you have the sabots. Obviously most if not all production factory sabots are off limits to most reloaders. From what I've seen you have/had only the grey rss, the blue rss, the css, the blazing which hasn't come out yet, and the hubel sabots. The grey and blue rss sabots reloaders had problems with, the blue is still available and still being used but I have not heard any recent reports at least in the few forums I frequent. I don't hear to much about the css, but I heard of decent reports of them being used. Ajay hasn't got his blazing sabot out yet because of still in development stages. Then the Hubel sabot which from pics that I have seen show real potential. All of these sabots are usually from the 45 to 58 cal range which should be a good base for shooting a WIDE variety of boolits downrange to get the reloader to acquire a more wind defying, hard hitting, accurate single projectile in the shotgun.

So why not with the 3" and 3 1/2" hulls, the 3 1/2" and rifled 12 ga barrels are less than thirty years old and have the ability to show great potential.

[cpileri]

Wow, thanks OnHoPr.
See i was thinking more simply; as in: what's the fastest 3.5' load for thus slug? then, "Hey wait a minute, this 2.75" is faster!"

So i was thinking just of subsittuting low-friction wad column materials to maintain the highest velocity (if that's what i wanted) but in a 3.5' shell, so there is no 'freebore' for the slug to jump into crooked.

i.e. use the X12X over powder, then low friction stuff, then the sabot/slug; crimp.

I'd need to chronograph them to be sure. maybe someday.
C-

[Hogtamer]

I didn't pay attention to the fps you posted from BPI the first time I read through....but can I say Bullfeathers!!!! 2600 fps? That's a deeeep pile of bullfeathers. I use a lot of Longshot out of 2 3/4" 12 gauges, up to 36 grn for a 7/8 oz slug - but rifle bullets they are not. 2600fps? More bullfeathers!

[cpileri]

Yeah. I tend to believe that BPI suffers from transcription errors rather than deliberate pushing of bullpuckey. For example, here is some 410 data:
410 bore, 3" hull w 84gr LGS which is basically one 0000buckshot ball sitting atop a long wad made for the purpose...
Lil'gun 26gr gives 1900fps/7.6kpsi
". " 28gr = 2400 fps/9.2 kpsi
Which seemed like a big jump up in velocity to me, buy hey its a small case and a light bullet so maybe, until i saw a little further on this one:
Still 3" hull, using a single 84gr 0000B ball (84gr) in a 410 wad,
20 gr Lil'gun at 1710fps/7.4kpsi.
So sure its possible that somewhere btwn 26 and 28gr lilgun there is an inflection point where velocity and pressure take a steep incline. But seems more likely that the 26gr load should be more like 22gr.
I have one more bpi source to check before i call this literature search done.
Will keep u all posted, of course.
C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Brother Cpileri, its very simple, go back to the land of dream merchant's like BPI and all is well.

Reality can be very harsh and unforgiving.

Don't trust every thing you read.
Life is too short but you can trust this guy, his " Balls are too small "
Read this post, at least he is honest ! !
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-are-too-small
Its not every day I get a laugh like this, go ahead treat yourself to this refreshing treat!
It took me days to recover from this experiance!

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here, we'd rather not buy the Dream pamphlet and use a sleeping pill to sleep like a Elite Musketeer baby.

Best regards,
Ajay
SuperBlazingSabots,com
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl[/url]
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/[/url] ... wforum.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr[/url] ... ot!/page1
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961[/url]
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246[/url]
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/[/url]
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Great observation by my Brother Cpileri, Where are you?
Get back on board for we need you and let the fun begin !

You really have to be in a " Dream Land "

Read it for fun !

Warmest regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots