Minie shooting resources.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

I am intrigued by the big .58's and think long term I may have to have one.

What are some good resources on getting these babies to shoot well?

[shooter575]

Here are a couple links.I would think finding a origional Enfield in
NZ would be a good way to go for you.I have some other links somplace
I will dig up for you.The big minnes are a hoot to shoot and they will
suprise a got of people once you get everything working togther.Main
thing is getting the right diameter minne for your barrel.The bore
sizes run all over the place.and most minne moulds are in the .575-.577
You need a minne to be .001-.002 under bore to shoot well.You find
somthing we can help ya out



http://www.n-ssa.org/

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/musketry/enfieldmanagement.htm

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful.shtml

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Jim.

Yes, there are a few originals knocking around here but my pockets are not that deep. In saying that though the PH rifles are keeping their value too. Lots of Snider carbines........if you like being beaten stupid by a rifle. [smilie=1::-D

Great links and many thanks again.

[Rattus58]

And Rapine Bullet Molds Make a very fine minie... as does a difficult to cast Lyman 577611, I've shot a Lee 460 grain minie that was so so... but the minies can be very accurate... and 4" at 100 yards in some guns is easy.

Aloha... :cool:

[Buckshot]

.............They ARE fun! If you can swing a P-H, that's the way to go. Even a 2nd gen P-H with the British barrel. I have a 2nd gen P-H. It's a P58 Naval pattern 2 band. The Naval pattern 2 band (vs sergent's 2 bands and P56 2 bands) had a heavier barrel in order to handle the heavier naval cutlass bayonet. They also had the faster 48" twist, with 5 lands and grooves and progressive depth grooves. However all Enfields had progressive depth grooves.

http://www.fototime.com/0C56B228EF2061D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/6BF0D8313CD43F3/standard.jpg

The left photo was a fast and dirty lube test. Both photo's above benched at 50 yards.

http://www.fototime.com/EDDACCF2BFC970A/standard.jpg

Accuracy test Swiss BP vs Pyrodex. Five rounds off the bench at 50 yards.

http://www.fototime.com/8BC1B5A76A51FBD/standard.jpg

This is the first 5 rounds Offhand at 50 yards in one of our weekly cast lead shoots. Normally we shoot centerfire. These 5 were so nice I decided to put up a 2nd target for the 2nd 5 rounds.

http://www.fototime.com/F0FB3ECC8DD4C31/standard.jpg

This was the second five rounds. Not as nice as the first. However, it still was five 10's and I ended up with a 91-2X. The Minie's weren't scaled and the powder was thrown from a measure.

Like any other rifle you have to work with'em to see what they want to do their best with. As shooter575 said, you MUST fit the bore. No amount of mucking about with powder types, charges or lube will mean much of anything if they don't fit well. They really are a hoot to shoot. If the sun is right you can watch that big Minie' sail out to the target.

...............Buckshot

[Rattus58]

Nice targets Buckshot... however, I think that the mold you are discussing is a 577611 rather than a 575611.. Just being picky.... :grin:

Aloha.. :cool: :drinks:

[JeffinNZ]

Great work Buckshot. What sort of accuracy can be expected at 100 yards with careful loads and perfectly cast minies?

Has anyone shot the Lyman 575494 at 315gr? I thought this would be a nice economical load for offhand 50 yard work.

[45 2.1]

Has anyone shot the Lyman 575494 at 315gr? I thought this would be a nice economical load for offhand 50 yard work.

I've got one. From my experiments and lots of opinions of others i've asked, this is a 50 to 60 yd minie with a lower charge also. It shoots very well in that range, but will shoot dismally at any longer distance.

[Rattus58]

Hi Jeff,

I have that mold from Rapine, rather than Lyman... and it is a very accurate bullet. Ol man Rapine uses that bullet for hunting out his shops back door no less... It is 315 grains after all.... I've not shot it at game, though.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:

[Buckshot]

............At 315grs it doesn't weigh much more then a RB. Poor ballistics for much beyond 50 yards. IMO the best target Minie is Lee's Target Minie. Back that up with 'It must fit'. I use a load of 45.0grs of 3Fg. That's what I used to shoot that 91-2X with.

http://www.fototime.com/C75E453AEFB1E35/standard.jpg

This makes a nice long range boolit :-)! I think Rattus58 is right as the mould number could be 577611. Just put some washers under the screw that retains the core pin to lower it so the core pin rides lower. Definetly have to have the faster 48" twist to stabilize it. It does well to 100 yds but I haven't shot it further then that.

I have a long range 58 cal design from NEI. It drops a 510gr slug with a TC nose, flat base and a single wide and deep lube groove. Due to the rather narrow grooves (compared to a 3 groover) in my P58, and the fact that they're also deep at the breech, it complicates a plain base in fully upsetting as easily I think. I didn't have enough cast up when I first began working with it. I think I might have to go to about 90.0grs of 2Fg to make it more accurate at 200 meters.

I have found that my Zouave with it's 3 wide lands and grooves will shoot a harder Minie' (hardened with WW) then my P58. As mentioned above with progressive depth grooves they're .013" deep at the breech in the P58. That gives a theoretical groove diameter of .603". The bore is .580", and at the muzzle the grooves are .005" deep. The harder alloy will upset to seal easier in the wide shallower grooves of the Zouave then the P58.

With BP it was proven 150 years ago that all boolit upset takes place ONLY at ignition and nowhere else in the barrel. As a consequence for whatever boolit design and alloy the charge must be sufficient to have this happen. I've gathered several Minie' bullets that were gas cut and believe me, they will be cut as if done with a torch. By the same token, I believe the P58 with it's 5 grooves (and being deeper at the breech) will allow a given design to stand a heavier charge (for longer range) better then the 3 groove. The 5 groove gets 2 more 'bites' on the slug, and 5 deeper ones all told, where inertia is the greatest.

One oddity after mentioning all my thinking above is how well the Lee REAL shoots. This is a plain base design with 2 narrow rear bands that ride the bore. It then has one band at the nose which engraves. It shoots very well and is very fast to cast as there is no hollow base core plug to monkey with. The fact that it shoots so well with light target loads, being a plain base and with those narrow deep grooves in the P58 is a kind of mystery to me.

JeffinNZ ,Great work Buckshot. What sort of accuracy can be expected at 100 yards with careful loads and perfectly cast minies?

The real limiting factor is the rather crude sights on these muskets. Remember they were for fairly close work on tall (human) targets. They still formed up 'en masse' and marched up close in our Civil War, just like they did in the Napolianic wars, or forever before that. They didn't have any real idea of the these rifles' ability for longer range skirmishing until later in the fracas. Oddly enough, a very fine long range sights were put on some of the M1855 Springfield rifled muskets. Again you have the fact that the troopers firing them had to know how to use them.

About the best I've been able to do at 100 yards is 4" for 5 shots, and by NOT scaling the Minie's it's not unusual to get fliers. Mostly caused by unseen voids formed above the core pin nose I'm sure. Lead can skin over the void so just looking inside the HB won't show anything amiss. The boolits produced by the government for military use were swaged.

...............Buckshot

[charger 1]

624 grains. I like abuse, but even I have a limit. Hey buckshot, whats the max of ffg behind a 530 gr 577611 you figure a PH musketoon in as new shape can handle? 90 be about max?

[Buckshot]

624 grains. I like abuse, but even I have a limit. Hey buckshot, whats the max of ffg behind a 530 gr 577611 you figure a PH musketoon in as new shape can handle? 90 be about max?

..........If the guy you get that P-H from has the book with it, it will give the max approved charge. I have an article from "Rifle" magazine where Al Miller was testing a Lyman import Zouave. That would place the article back in the 70's if I'm not mistaken.

I don't know where he was getting his load info from or what possessed him to do it but IIRC he'd worked up to 110grs of 2Fg powder. Of course he was mentioning about the hammer flying back to half and full cock so he decided to back it on down a bit!

The nice thing about the 577611 is it's thick skirts. It will handle a much heavier charge then a Lyman 575213. Naturally any of the target Minie's will have lighter skirts. Most of the pointy Minie's goung 500 grs or so are designed for the military charge of 70grs of 2FG. I'd have no problem going 90.0 grs in my P58. Stand by for some whiplash with your musketoon, heavier Minie's and heavier charges.

...............Buckshot

[charger 1]

Holly smokes Buck,,,Is to dream to get any of the stuff that came with the gun. No as I understand it, I'm getting a basically un used gun from an estate, but the fools let everything else go at an auction. Geez I wish folk realized how they butchered values when they did that. Anyhoo, I'll be lookin for 90 grains of ff behind that lyman slug and lovin every minute

[Rattus58]

I'd not be using 90 grains in the musketoon, unnecessary and it blew the nipple out of my gun. My musketoon was rated for 3 1/4 drams I think it was... (weird measure fer a guy on a lily pad) but whatever, that worked out to a max load of about 90 grains.

A 70 grain "duplex" 2f/3F, Pyrodex P, RS, Elephant 3F, Goex 3F all were accurate, throw the 611 with enough authority to hit a 4" bull at 100 yards and obliterate the interior of ANY animal of deer proportions and anything the size of an elk at less than 50 yards.

Aloha... :cool:

[charger 1]

I'd not be using 90 grains in the musketoon, unnecessary and it blew the nipple out of my gun. My musketoon was rated for 3 1/4 drams I think it was... (weird measure fer a guy on a lily pad) but whatever, that worked out to a max load of about 90 grains.

A 70 grain "duplex" 2f/3F, Pyrodex P, RS, Elephant 3F, Goex 3F all were accurate, throw the 611 with enough authority to hit a 4" bull at 100 yards and obliterate the interior of ANY animal of deer proportions and anything the size of an elk at less than 50 yards.

Aloha... :cool:


OOOOUW blew a nipple. I knew a girl once who got joggers nipple....Similar?

[Rattus58]

OOOOUW blew a nipple. I knew a girl once who got joggers nipple....Similar?

I'm sure neither one of them is pleasant.... :grin: and she got to keep hers.... :drinks: