New study on lead in meat

[tsigalah]

Hello!

I'm a long time lurker who is ramping up to begin casting in the near future. I recently read about this Norwegian study in the newspaper and since I believe most board members here are from the Americas I thought I should share it here. I plan to hunt with cast boolits in the future so this was an interesting read.

http://www.vkm.no/dav/cbfe3b0544.pdf

The gist is that you can see elevated lead levels in the blood of people who eat game meat more than once a month and that this is because people trim too little around the wound channel. For a grown man the tolerances are higher but children and pregnant women (and probably dogs) are more susceptible. Lots of nerdy data and references ensue.

Take care of your loved ones and trim

[Stephen Cohen]

Interesting I imagine those of us who shoot a lot of game birds with shotguns would be at some risk.

[tsigalah]

I'm not so sure about that, the study don't go into shot but it seems like the main culprit is the rapid expansion/deformation inside the animal and since shot isn't "mushrooming" the same way risks are probably lower (or a lot lower)

[303Guy]

You know, I have been wondering about just that. I suppose one should trim away any meat that is shredded around the would channel. I'm guilty of eating too close to the wound, i.e. just ignoring it. I developed high lead around the same time I was living on rabbit and hare. I blamed careless casting practices (dross dust getting into my face). Thanks for the alert. And welcome aboard! :drinks:

Oh, ingestion of solid lead doesn't seem to be as bad as lead salts. Finely fragmented lead would have a larger surface area. Then again there is some oxide on shot (on older boolits too). Lead oxide dust through the lungs is I believe the worst culprit. Mmm ... lead exploding in flesh would be heated, maybe even molten and might oxidise some. That would do it.

[Lead Fred]

Been eating shot meat since the 50s.
I'm still here

[dragon813gt]

Good thing most are mine are taken w/ arrows ;)
I always trim away more than I think necessary. The damaged meat has never looked appealing to eat so I make sure I don't eat any.

[300savage]

I am sure that this is going to have as much to do with high velocity as anything.
Fragile jacketed bullets and high energy puts lead dust in your critter.
Personally I always pick out where the bloodshot ends, and then go a couple inches more.
Still always wondered if that was enough.

[Hamish]

Hmm, everyone seems to have missed the point,,,,,,the only "safe" boolit to shoot a critter with has now been proven to be a WIDE FLAT NOSE.......:bigsmyl2: (running and ducking for cover,,,,,)

[NLS1]

I appreciate the reminder for safety, I really do, I also understand the risks, and believe that it is predominantly misunderstood.

When you mentioned Norway, keep in mind that it is also illegal to bow hunt animals there, because they believe it is inhumane! And it is illegal to spank a child who mis behaves since it is "abuse", and they tax you based on engine displacement for your car, and they essentialy have outlawed most firearms, and many other freedoms that we hold important here.

I have family who lives there, and they all came to go to school for two years and my brother in law and I had some interesting conversations!

Again I appreciate the reminder to be careful, but I take EVERYTHING "officially" accepted as gospel in Norway with a grain of salt.

Dan

[Three44s]

A good shot crossways to the ribs outa eliminate the lead issue as well.

Three 44s

[mold maker]

First it was Mercury, than lead, and this morning, it's arsenic in rice. Ain't nobody gonna live forever.
Eat drink and be merry.

[shredder]

Dont shoot em in the steaks. Be sure to take your broadside rib cage shot and throw out the shot up stuff.

[reloader28]

According to the "experts", there is nothing on this planet that you cant get cancer or lead poisoning from.
I'm going to keep on doing what I do, regardless of what they say.
I've never ruined any meat shooting them in the ribs or neck anyway.

[Flinchrock]

First it was Mercury, than lead, and this morning, it's arsenic in rice. Ain't nobody gonna live forever.
Eat drink and be merry.

Yeah,,,I just flat ain't gonna worry about it!

[NLS1]

First it was Mercury, than lead, and this morning, it's arsenic in rice. Ain't nobody gonna live forever.
Eat drink and be merry.


According to the "experts", there is nothing on this planet that you cant get cancer or lead poisoning from.
I'm going to keep on doing what I do, regardless of what they say.
I've never ruined any meat shooting them in the ribs or neck anyway.

Exactly!
Dan

[aspangler]

OK. Where do they think lead comes from anyway. It don't come from the foundry! It comes from the earth and that has been here since time began.

[youngda9]

And people keep saying "you can eat right up to the hole" as if it's a good thing, LOL.

[Larry Gibson]

Horse cr ₩ p........I've lived off game meat most of my life, many shot with cast bullets and lead shot. I also managed a indoor range for several years and periodic blood tests were required. Even though casting, shooti g and smelting myself and 2 others always had considerably below the average level of lead in our blood. Our fro tier ancestors would have all died od lead poisoning. .......just more PC BS.....

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Due to work I have been getting checked annually for heavy metals for the past 35 years. This includes lead. I cast a lot, I eat a lot of game shot with lead and I work around heavy metals. My lead levels are always well below average. The only time they were above average was when I deployed to Afghanistan. During that time I ate no wild game or did any casting.

[quilbilly]

My great grandfather was shot in America's Civil War in the Battle of the Wilderness and carried the minie ball imbedded in his back for the next 35 years. Those mini balls were 500 gr of pure soft lead. Apparently lead isn't the problem the hystericals say it is to generate government grant revenue. One of the problems today is that the ability for scientists to measure substances is far beyond what is relevant in the real world but is adequate to stampede politicians into giving away taxpayer money.

[waksupi]

And people keep saying "you can eat right up to the hole" as if it's a good thing, LOL.

What is meant by that, is you don't loose a whole shoulder due to blood shot meat.

[HollowPoint]

What gets me about studies like this is that even though they may have some basis in fact, they deliberately make it sound like lead, and lead alone is the only danger we face when hunting animals with bullets containing lead.

This is just common sense so I can't personally back it up by siting any scientific tests. Did you know that you're more likely to suffer physical harm in a traffic accident on your way to your hunting area than by anything having to do with lead or lead poisoning?

I'd venture to guess that if someone were reading this "Lead in Meat" study directly from a hard-copy sheet of paper, they would have a greater chance of suffering a paper-cut, having it get infected and dying from a staff-infection as a result than dying form lead poisoning.

It's good to be reminded of the dangers of lead exposure now and then. It keeps us on our toes but, these kinds of pointed studies appear to have more to do with special-interest-group's agendas that actually giving a damn about other peoples well being.

HollowPoint

[yeahbub]

What 303 Guy said about lead salts is right on the money. Lead oxide or "white lead" is what was used in lead based paints of years ago and is easily absorbed by the body. Interestingly, lead salts were also the world's first known artificial sweetener. The Roman aristocracy were wealthy enough to have their wines fermented in lead-lined vats, which lent them a degree of sweetness. This may explain why some of their behavior and paranoia was barking mad. This sweetness may also explain why children would eat paint chips and suffer debilitating lead toxicity. The most rapid heavy metals poisoning is the result of compounds which render the metal biologically available. Metallic mercury or lead are fairly innocuous, but acids in sweat or contact with foods can produce compounds which are toxic and readily assimilated by the body. Neglecting hand-washing after handling metals can lead to inadvertent ingestion. Sometimes this forming of compounds can be a good thing, such as cooking with tomato sauce in a cast iron skillet will add biologically available iron to your diet.

As it is, dose makes the poison. The safety record for working with these substances is pretty good when using ordinary precautions. The ban-everything crowd doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[303Guy]

In my parts there is no paranoia about hunting and guns and such but when my blood level was high it was considered risky and something was done about it. Casting is recognised as a potential source of lead in the blood but no more than any other source. They gave advice me on how to avoid the exposure and not casting was not one of them.

I got the same treatment when my blood iron level was too high. Peoples who brew their beverages in iron or steel containers tend to suffer iron induced diseases. It's life threatening.

[yeahbub]

303Guy,

What was the treatment for the lead condition?

I've not read about iron toxicity, though too much of anything is a bad deal.

[madsenshooter]

Elemental lead is poorly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. Lead compounds, organic compounds, on the other hand are well absorbed. I'd guess that some of the free lead gets to form organic compounds, when smashed into a critter at high velocity. A friend of mine washed his hands in leaded gasoline several times a day from the end of WWII until they quit making leaded gasoline. It finally got him, at the age of 82! One of the places organic lead settles is in the tissues of the heart. He was having signal problems and had a pacemaker put in. Idiot doctors opened him up when he had the flu, or he'd likely still be here. All this anti-lead junk science is just one way they're trying to regulate what the common man can get his hands on.

[blikseme300]

It has been proven that 100% of people that drink water will die.[smilie=s:

[Finarfin]

I don't shoot the meat.

[HollowPoint]

It has been proven that 100% of people that drink water will die.[smilie=s:

Yea, that's a good one.

I've also heard that everyone that has regular bowel-movements will eventually die as well.

HollowPoint

[quilbilly]

303guy - Lead is a naturally occurring substance in many soils. Volcanic soils are often laced with heavy metals and if there are any silver deposits in the area, there is likely lead since they often occur together. If you wash your hands before eating after casting, it is highly unlikely any lead in your system came from casting.

[jhalcott]

Washing your face and hands before eating hs always been good advice! Handling lead and other heavy metals while smoking has been proven to be bad for you. It's also true that there have been other studies "proving" game shot with bullets is tainted, THEN those studies were proven to be false science! We all know the anti's will say any thing to stop us from hunting or fishing. They even hate the guns, as if a gun can do will full harm!

[RPRNY]

The study uses epidemiology to arrive at a conclusion." Among the subject population, those who ate game were more likely to have higher lead levels than those who did not." The problem with this type of epidemiology is that it does not point to causality, it indicates co-incidence. But people who eat game regularly are more likely to eat fish regularly, and Norwegian fish may have relatively higher lead levels. People who eat game regularly are more likely to be rural and may have increased exposure to lead pipes and lead paint vs more urban segments of the test population.You see how it goes?

Epidemiology is not a good diagnostic tool for determining causation unless used to gradually deduce a few likely mechanisms of causation that then need to be tested in vitro or in vivo to determine causation directly. For the results of the Norwegian study to have merit other than demonstrating the coincidence of heightened lead levels and eating game, the game being eaten by the higher lead level population needs to be tested for lead levels at the time of consumption, ie after being cooked and as ready to go on the table.

[303Guy]

What was the treatment for the lead condition?
Identifying the probable cause and eliminating it. I was getting exposed to dust from the dross from the way I was handling it. I was washing my hands and all that but I was careless with the dross dust. I used to have kitty litter on the melt to act as an insulator and I would flux with a piece of wood which kicked up dust. Also when disposing of the dross build up and it does build up. In retrospect it seems pretty obvious - I was careless with ventilation and draft direction. Once the exposure was dealt with my levels came down. Fresh fruit and vegetables with heaps of vitamin C were recommended.


The first indication of iron poisoning by ingestion is a pain in the stomach, as the stomach lining becomes ulcerated. This is accompanied by nausea and vomiting. The pain then abates for 24 hours as the iron passes deeper into the body resulting in metabolic acidosis, which in turn damages internal organs, particularly the brain and the liver. The body goes into shock and death from liver failure.[citation needed]
If intake of iron is during a prolonged period of time, symptoms are likely similar to other causes of iron overload


Epidemiology is not a good diagnostic tool for determining causation ...I was once accused of 'doing something' to a machine because I was seen at the machine before it failed. I was doing something - my job! But I was doing something unrelated like looking for potential problems. Sound like epidemiology?

However, just because the test results could be skewed doesn't mean they were. Usually researchers look for all possible causes (unless they have an agenda). I'm just going to avoid possible lead contaminated meat.

[Stephen Cohen]

It has been proven that 100% of people that drink water will die.[smilie=s:

This is 100% true, it shows beyond doubt, statistics can show what ever the user wishes them to.

[ubetcha]

many years ago,I read that taking vitamin B or B12 (IIRC) was suppose to help reduce lead levels in the body. I just don't recall where I read it

[Fisher]

Lead through the vital organs like the heart and lungs are deadly, that's why I go for the vitals when hunting. But I have found that it is more likely that the blood loss and suffucaion deu to blood filling the lungs is realy what will cause death to the thing that got shot, rather than the lead it self. I recon if you got/had some lead in you, but you are not bleeding then you'll have to find something else other than lead to die from...

I think if this lead thing appeal to you then globalwarming and an earth that is millions and zillions of years old might work for you too!

[dtknowles]

Lead through the vital organs like the heart and lungs are deadly, that's why I go for the vitals when hunting. ......earth that is millions and zillions of years old might work for you too!

Roughly how old is the Planet Earth?

Tim

[bart55]

Yea ,I am sixty three have been melting lead since I was twelve. I have also eaten game shot with lead shot lead bullets and I fish with lead sinkers. I even clamp the sinkers with my teeth! I also have been getting a lead blood test every year with my blood work and so far my levels have always been low. A friend of my dads was a gas station owner and also washed his hands with leaded gas ,forever! he did wind up with some nerve damage in his hands from the gas . but he died in his eighties and not from the lead. I think I will keep doing what I have been doing .

[Buzzard II]

I'm more afraid of chomping into a pellet and breaking a tooth. Dentist is expensive!

[303Guy]

There are differing opinions on the age of the earth. I had a quick read on it and it's quite interesting how geologist have attempted to determine the earth's age and that of the solar system since Lord Kelvin's time in 1862 when he published his book. Ironically lead-lead dating is one of the methods used. So lead can't be all bad. :mrgreen:

I'm still having doubts about lead from lead bullets being much of a contributor in lead poising.

Lead poisening is not all that trivial.
81332

I had blood lead under 10µg (9.4 I think). Symptoms only occur up around 40µg usually.

The point is though is that lead is not a health supplement in any way.

Oh, chelation is the method for removing lead from the body.

[KYCaster]

I notice the study linked in the OP refers to lead levels in units of micrograms per liter. Every other reference I've seen on the subject uses micrograms per deciliter. Here's an example http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=7&po=8

So their method of reporting lead levels makes the problem appear ten times worse than the units used by our government.

Why is that? Is that an oversight? Is it intentional? Either way, a discrepancy as basic as that makes me skeptical of the entire study.

Jerry

[303Guy]

They use mg/kg as well as µg/l! mg/kg is SI, as used in Europe. We in NZ go a step further and use mol/l (what a pain). The US is using µg/dL which is metric. It's like cm versus mm. Ironically, the litre is not SI. My lead blood lead was something like 0.45 which is nearly 10 . A litre of blood does not weight 1 kg. So now we have four ways of stating blood lead. Glad we all standardizing! Chemically, µmol/l is correct (refers to the number of molecules, not the mass).

[gwpercle]

I did a study that has shown the out come of a study is directly porprtional to who paid for the study and what agenda they have.
I.E. Studies paid for by the Brady people show owning a gun is hazardous to your health.
My study has proven to me that studies don't "prove" diddley-squat. You can skew the results just by the way the study is done.

Gary

[quilbilly]

I did a study that has shown the out come of a study is directly porprtional to who paid for the study and what agenda they have.
I.E. Studies paid for by the Brady people show owning a gun is hazardous to your health.
My study has proven to me that studies don't "prove" diddley-squat. You can skew the results just by the way the study is done.

Gary Well said!!!!!

[Sensai]

I'm one of the ones who advocate the "eat right up to the hole" method. You need to realize that we're talking about heavy and slow projectiles versus light and fast projectiles. I really don't think that a lot of lead is left behind in that deer from my 405 grain 45/70 boolit's passing through, or my 185 grain 30-30 boolit passing through. There will be a little bloodshot meat around "the hole", but once outside of that margin I have just about zero concern with any lead left behind. If there were a problem with eating game shot with lead boolits, most of us would not be here. Our ancestors would have died long before having children. Now if you want to talk about lead left behind in game, let's discuss hunting deer size game with the 22-250, or 243, or the other chamberings that are based on the light and super fast high energy theory.

[45fisher]

Same here...and my kids are still here too!

Larry

[Smoke4320]

And people keep saying "you can eat right up to the hole" as if it's a good thing, LOL.
the hole is where the fun begins .. What you talkin bout Willis ?
Know what you were thinking ..
No then you have to tag it, drag it, bag it, clean it, and cut it up :) :).. then wrap it and freeze it then cook it and eat it and I love every minute of it

PS I know my lead levels are not high because I can not make bullets from my blood ....yet :) :)

[Browningshooter]

I have seen an interesting study involving x rays of gut piles and packages of meat showing lead fragments from high velocity j words. I believe funding from Barnes bullets was involved as they wanted to show one of the advantages to pure gilded metal bullets. Anyhow, I believe this sort of evidence help to bolster the point that the cast bullet is a better choice for hunting game that you will eat. Obviously placing your shot thru the heart/lungs is the best option for keeping the lead out of your meat. However , even with less than ideal shot s you are still much less likely to get lead in your meat with a properly cast lead slug not so with condom bullets! They fragmented all over the place....
Will

[Ehaver]

But what is worse? A bit or led or all of the **** they feed and put into the supermarket meat? and then there is the way those animals are raised... Ill take the fresh meat. :razz:

[TXGunNut]

I haven't found lead fragments in meat since I started using boolits, just another benefit of hunting with cast. Agreed about folks eating game also eating more fish and lead levels in fish are known contributors to elevated lead levels.
Studies are interesting but the only thing that studies generally proove is that given enough numbers you can "proove" almost anything.

[longranger]

If you have filling(s) in your teeth you have lead in your body. Almagram(filling) is primarily lead and some hardening agents.University of South Dakota tested hundreds of bullet harvested deer over a several year study and came up with "junk science" is a bigger threat to your health than the lead bullet that killed the deer.

[303Guy]

Amalgam(filling) is primarily lead and some hardening agents.Actually, it's primarily mercury and lead. It is only dangerous during filling and removal.

[35 shooter]

Well you guys got me scared now. I shudder to think of all the squirrels, rabbits, coons, deer, quail, doves, etc.
all shot meat i've put down in 60 years. It's a wonder i'm still here!!
Guess i'm off to the store tommorrow for all the red dye no. nine (is that one still around?) and steroid shot up meat i can buy. After all they couldn't put it in there if it wasn't good for us....RIGHT?

Naaaa...think i'll go hunting instead.

[10x]

Interesting survey. The focus is on lead from shot and bullets.
the study says they used Xrays to find lead fragments - I would expect the Xray could not distinguish between lead and copper jacket fragments.

This statement is very telling - tetra ethyl lead does not leave the food chain and all those additives are still in the food chain.
There is no way to sort out the source of lead in animals.

No mention is made of the millions of tons of lead used in Lead paint and lead acid batteries as a background lead source.
Nor is there any mention of raw lead ore (Galena) as a source.

Read the bold print in the quote very carefully. ( page 45 of the study)


Tetraalkyl lead, R4Pb, mostly tetraethyl lead, is an organic lead species used in petrol. In
1972, around 400 000 tonnes of tetraethyl lead were consumed globally as anti-knocking
agents in leaded gasoline. Since then, this application has declined dramatically due to
restrictions imposed through environmental legislation, such as directives 85/210/EEC and
98/70/EC.
In Norway, it was e.g. shown that lead in primary teeth declined from the 1970s to the 1990s,
by approximately 50% (Tvinnerheim et al., 1997). Tooth lead concentrations and atmospheric
deposition of lead in the same areas were significantly and positively correlated, as shown by
analysis of naturally growing moss.
In Norway, nationwide assessments of metals in moss (more specifically stair-step moss,
Hylocomium splendens) are done in order to monitor long-range transported delivery of these
elements. After the survey in 2005 it was noted that atmospheric deposition from other
European countries still was a dominating source of lead in Norway (SFT, 2007). In Southern
Norway, the deposition of lead in 2005 was only 5% of what it was in 1977. The relative
decline after 2000 was however lower than earlier (Figure 9). Furthermore, monitoring has
shown that the deposition of lead in Norway in 2010 is lower than in 2000, but at the same
level as in 2005 (Steinnes et al., 2011). It was concluded that further decline can likely not be
expected before the use of leaded petrol is terminated in some East-European countries (SFT,
2007; Steinnes et al., 2011).

Another problem with the study is that liver and muscle tissue was used to determine lead levels in animals.
There was no testing of lead levels in the bone - lead collects in bone and can be used to determine environmental exposure.

In all of the studies on lead poisoning in lead shot bans, there were no control studies of lead levels in live birds that had no shot in their gullets.
Nor was lead paint, lead acid batteries, and tetra ethyl lead ever considered as a source of lead poisoning.

The minced moose meat information is interesting. Minced meat is sometimes mixed with salvage meat from a wound channel - yes lead from a bullet can be left behind - much depends on the butcher who decides what meat to salvage from the wound channel.

I have shot a number of game animals with cast lead alloy bullets. I have weighed recovered bullets and discovered there is very little lead missing from the bullet ( sometimes much less than a grain and there is zero fragmentation.

The key to keeping metal contamination out of minced meat is to not salvage meat from the wound channel.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, 10x. So if the overall environmental lead has diminished so much why are they bothering with lead from deer meat? Is it just to keep the lab boys employed? Or is a subtle way of telling us we should switch from lead cored bullets to cast lead boolits! :mrgreen:

[303carbine]

Lead in meat is always a bad thing, I try for head shots or blast'em through and through the ribs.
I believe slower heavy bullets kill faster and leave way less lead in the critters that we eat.
A hard cast 45-70 will leave less lead in an animal than a high velocity round from a 308 or 30-06 will. I have never recovered a hard cast 45-70 slug from any game critter, but I have dug out plenty jacketed bullets that have lost the lead core, Nosler Partition's being the biggest culprit for shedding lead cores.

[starmac]

Since I am too old to chase them down and choke them, and too old to die young, I think I will just shoot them and not worry about it. lol

[mikeym1a]

One old timer (when I was young) told me that there weren't no use worrying, weren't none of us getting out of this alive! He was right. We die a little each day. Doctors tell me I have 5 major conditions that might kill me if I don't do what they say. I listen, and then do as I choose. I'd rather die walking the fields with a gun in my hands, then die a vegetable with tubes coming out of various orifices. I suspect it is mainly a matter of moderation. Moderation in drink, food, and everything else. The guy that started the jogging craze quite a while back, think his name was Jim Fixx, died of a heart attack while out on a jog, if I remember correctly. BUT, by his jogging he LIVED 20 years longer than the doctors thought he would. Momma always trimmed the meat around the bullet wounds. She didn't like the look of it. Pop wasn't a hunter, and most wild game was given to us. We raised most of our food. Pigs, chickens, rabbits, ducks, fish from the pond, calves - some orphaned, some natural- from our cow. All in moderation. Pop died last fall at age 87. Mom died long ago, and his 'new' wife didn't look out for him as well as she might have. Even with that, 87 is right aged. Today's word, boys and girls, is 'MODERATION'.[smilie=s:

[JakeBlanton]

I am less concerned about lead in my game meat than I am of mercury in the fish that I catch. If you look at some of the warnings that are put out by the various state fishery commissions, it gets scary. Were these mercury levels there all along? If so, I have to wonder how I'm still alive considering how much fish I used to eat.

[10x]

Thanks for that, 10x. So if the overall environmental lead has diminished so much why are they bothering with lead from deer meat? Is it just to keep the lab boys employed? Or is a subtle way of telling us we should switch from lead cored bullets to cast lead boolits! :mrgreen:

The sad thing is that the lead from paint, lead acid batteries, and gasoline is NOT diminished in the Environment. IT DOES NOT GO AWAY but keeps cycling through the food chain.

[frkelly74]

I see some numbers in the report but I am not knowledgable enough to think of them in a meaningful way. What are they talking about numerically, and what is a dangerous level? I got my level tested not long ago and the report came back "marginally high" , which could mean anything depending on the bias of the reporter. So I asked for a number and after some back and forth I was given one. The advice of the doctor was to cut down on my exposure. So What is considered a high number and what is considered average? Is there a normal? Today I am sanding a floor and God knows what is in that dust.