Do deer see color?

[303Guy]

Apparently they do but there is good news - they cannot see pink! Even better, men see pink very well indeed - we associate pink with women and there's no way we would mistake a women for a deer and shoot her. We might shoot a man for wearing pink though. :roll:

What cammo do y'all wear when hunting deer? Considering that with cast boolits we do kinda need to get in closer - or do we?

Oh, pigs see red green and blue, deer see green and blue. Not sure how pigs see red and not deer but apparently deer don't see red very well so orange blaze does not glow light a light house to them.

[reloader28]

I always heard that the animals that have night vision, are color blind.
The ones that dont have night vision, see color.

[fouronesix]

I doubt deer see color. They do "see" movement and they do see very well. They obviously see relative brightness- some colors have more relative brightness than others. Their hearing is only matched by their sense of smell but they can hear upwind- nothing can smell upwind :wink:

[atr]

not so much color.....but movement and sound,,,,especially sound,,,,and smell....
based on my field experience I would say Sound, movement, and smell in that order.

[Jim]

http://www.buckmasters.com/are-deer-completely-color-blind.aspx

[aspangler]

http://www.buckmasters.com/are-deer-completely-color-blind.aspx

That's what we are taught as Hunter Safety Instructors.

[303Guy]

The trick is not to have large areas of a single color. Blaze orange vests and caps are a large area and deer can see it but not so much as a light beacon, just a large area. In the link above they talk about how blaze orange is created.
It's important to note that blaze orange is pigmented in two ways. One is by combining red and yellow. The other is by combining yellow and magenta (reddish-purple). Magenta is in the peak sensitivity range of a deer's visual spectrum, and thus will glow in a deer's eyes.

When spooked, it's often because the movement of a solid human form catches the deer's eyes, rather than them noticing color.
They do see green and blue.

Be aware that many conventional laundry detergents and color dyes used on camouflage clothing manufactured overseas contain brightening, blueing or whitening agents.
These collect light energy from a wide range of wavelengths and re-radiate it in a powerful peak at a range of about 440 nanometers - near maximum sensitivity of a deer. They might not see it well in bright sunlight, but in twilight these brightening agents can make your clothes glow like a neon sign to deer.

I've found several references to the University of Georgia's Warnell School of Forestry and Natural Resources study and each says something a little different. This one says deer do not see green and yellow well while another says they do. They do have green sensitive cones in their retina.

[truckjohn]

It's a mistake to assume that because they can't "See" some colors - that they cannot tell hue, brightness, saturation, and other attributes....

There are many color blind people that actually have very good visual acuity - they can tell differences in hues, brightness, surface texture, etc quite well... where other people who *CAN* "See" color may be terrible differentiating hues, surface texture, etc....

I would assume it's the same for animals... while they can't maybe tell Pink from Orange - it just looks "Brown"... BUT.. they can tell hue, brightness, saturation, and the like - and so the Camo patterns may well look very different from "Forest" they are used to looking at..... because there are all sorts of different flavors of "Brown" mixed up together on a cloth pattern that doesn't look like leaves...

Think about how you would pick out a snake, small bird, or a squirrel in the woods... The "Color" isn't what we pick up on as much as the texture of the skin, fur, feathers compared to the texture of leaves, dirt, and bark....

Thanks

[HABCAN]

I was told (and, observing in the field have never had reason to doubt) that predators 'see' colors and 'prey' see 'grays', or as truckjohn says above............

[303Guy]

Well, that study shows they see two color ranges as well as black and white. We see black and white too in the dark. No-one knows for sure how they perceive color. It is thought that pigs don't see contrast very well like we do. Another thing is antelope and deer do not have a concentrated central vision like we do but they do have a fairly concentrated horizontal band on their retina so they have a good panoramic view but it is not know whether they have much accommodation. We do know they see pretty damn well in the dark, about nine times better than ours. Something that comes to mind is we might get a vague idea of what deer see by how we see in the dark if we can imagine it being brighter. We lose our sharp central vision to some extent in the dark and of course all our color vision.

[reloader28]

I dont think deer see color at all. We've sat on the ground right out in the open and have had a herd come right up to within 20yds of us. Not just once, either. Several times.
As long as you dont move, they will not see you. They only take off because we start laughing or jump up and scare them. and thats with 1-3 guys wearing orange hats, vests or sweatshirts. We wear lots of orange so other hunters can see us and contrary to hunter myth, deer cannot see blaze orange.
Last year I was wearing an orange hat and vest, and shot a doe at about 25yds that I sneaked up to in her bed.

[quilbilly]

I don't think they see much color but they sure do see ultra violet. That is why I now even "soak" my orange hunting gear in that UV Killer.

[Driver man]

Deer see colour including red. Although they dont have the cone in the eye for red discrimination they perceive it in a different way. Probably the way light diffuses or reflects from red. I can say with absolute certainty that they can see reflective surfaces like wet oilskins, pvc wet weather gear etc. I know that in low light they can sure see better than me. The UV argument is valid in low light conditions.

[303Guy]

I would imagine they see red the same way we do in low light - as grey. Everything looks grey in low light. The researchers say blaze orange looks grey to deer but not bright. It's movement we are trying to disguise when we wear cammo and also to break our outline. Reflective gun barrels has been mentioned as well. It's quite possible that a solid blaze orange against a uniform background would be quite invisible to them. Apparently, one can stalk a deer in an open field if on keeps a bush or tree directly behind us to break our outline.

Our skin would be reflective and bright to deer wouldn't it? Specially if we are pale faces. And face creams that we might be using like UV-blockers.

[MT Gianni]

I believe that animals see color but are not alarmed by it unless there is movement. I have had too many elk and deer stare at me then go right back to feeding if I did not lift a gun or stare at them with intent.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't know if they see color the way we do or not, but like MT Gianni, I have had way too many deer within ten yards of me to believe they are spooked by color alone.

Then there was the coyote that I watched come clear across a cut soybean field. I watched him pop over the levee (~350-400 yards away)and head almost directly towards me, I put the vertical crosshair on his right shoulder when he was about 300 yards out; then thought, "Let's see how close he will come."

He covered twenty-five or thirty yards before the crosshair was behind his left hind leg. I kept watching and he kept coming, right up until he smelled me at about twenty yards. Even then he didn't spook, but just circled a bit and went into the brush. I never have regretted not shooting him, it was very interesting.

Here is the kicker, I was wearing blue jeans, a blaze orange long sleeved shirt and hat. It was firearms deer season.

Just as fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen, I think most commercial camouflage is designed to catch hunters.

Robert

[milkman]

Deer have a set of ultra-violet, night vision type, heat detecting eyes concealed in their ears. Every time that I have been "spotted", even when I have been totally immobile, the deer's ears have been pointed at me. As long as they don't have their ears pointed at you, they are blind as a bat. It's a wonder they can see enough to find something to eat.

[303Guy]

I suppose those radar ears can hear the slightest movement we make, maybe our breathing. A slight bit of wind would help hide our sounds. That would confirm that it is movement we are trying to disguise and cammo that breaks out outline would be a start but perhaps also soften our outline so movement is disguised. But noise is another thing to think about. Boot noise, clothing rubbing together, brushing against vegetation and so on. Funny how critters sometimes stand and look at us until we point a gun at them then they seem to get nervous and move off. But only when they see that gun pointing at them. Is it the scope they see?

By the way, I have a theory that cammo should blend one in with the environment in a way other hunters can't see us so they can't shoot us! I've had buddies try to hide from me in their cammo when in fact it drew attention to them! Their cammo was too light. I've hidden from them and got spotted by the unnatural outline of my hat. I was otherwise in full view within the leafy bushes and was wearing green. I've now got olive green clothing that is a very quiet micro-fleece type polyethylene. I'll try that out next hunt. It's also very warm in cold and wet weather without being too hot in the warmth.

[MBTcustom]

All I have to say is that I think that the deer can see much better than anyone gives them credit for, and they hear about as good as everyone thinks, and they smell pretty good too. They're also dumb. They're a freakin goat with pretty horns. I've stood stalk still at full draw in the middle of a logging road at dusk, with my scent blowing ahead of me, straight at three deer that were walking towards me. The rear two turned off into the woods one after the other, but the lead deer didn't turn till it was 15 yards from me. Soon as it did "Chunk!" double lung hit.
See, it was a fresh logging road, and the deer had never been hunted in that area before. Had we been down in the flats, those same deer would have never presented a decent shot. That's the secret to hunting (especially on public land): You get where nobody else has gotten, and you can pretty much hold open your bag and the deer will jump right in.

A word on blaze orange: I always wear it. I take my chances in bow season, but make no mistake, getting shot with a broadhead that far out in the woods is a really bad idea and extremely life threatening, and I know I'm taking a risk.

I consider myself a fair to middlin deer hunter and sportsman, and at one time, I was a superb shot with a bow (matter of fact, I could shoot a bow better than most folks can shoot a rifle)
Anyways, I was set up waiting in the woods one evening with my bow, and I saw this creature coming towards me about 50 yards away. Now bear in mind, it was dusk. It was about to be too dark to see in about 30 minutes. I thought sure I was looking at a bear! The adrenaline started pumping and I drew my bow (hell at 50 yards, I could pick which hair I wanted to cut, and my eyesight is superb) Well, I was about to send it when this creature crouched down and I thought it looked for all the world like a black panther. I was about to send it, when this creature turned sideways a little, and I realized it was actually a turkey with it's fan opened! That didn't make any sense, because what I saw at first could not possibly have been a turkey. I let my bow down, and decided to wait till I could figure out what I was looking at. About that time, the "creature" stood up and I realized that it was my hunting buddy with his crossbow on his back.:shock: he had dropped something on the ground and had bent down to pick it up! All that damn camo and pack and bow, had broken up his outline so well, that It was playing tricks on me in the dusk! He wondered why I was a nervous wreck when he got to me. He asked if I had seen a deer or what? I told him I had just seen a lot more than that!
I still get goosbumps when I think about that, but I noticed in subsequent years that had that feller been wearing blaze orange, I really would never have mistaken him for anything but a hunter.

[1bluehorse]

I have no idea if deer "see" color or not....all this has been an interesting read...BUT, I do know humans can see color and that blaze orange stands out for miles...that's why there is no way I venture into the woods during hunting season without a fairly large covering of it.....even then you would be surprised by the amount of "hunters" that think a 1200lb sorrel animal wearing a saddle with an orange saddle pad and orange bags, a person on it's back also wearing an orange vest and orange bandana around his hat gets, "man, you looked like a big buck coming down the road"...........down "the road" mind you....I'm thinking of getting a white horse, but I'm not sure it would make any difference....what I have found in my area is to wait until Tuesday after opening weekend and I have the woods pretty much to myself...also get at least a mile from where anyone can drive to and it's pretty much just me...so my concern is to be seen by other "hunters" and not worry to much if a deer can see me or not....

[303Guy]

Holy cow, goodsteel! That is so scary! Glad the outcome was a happy one.

Our recent prominent hunting accident was that one when two hunters were deer calling each other. One saw the others blaze orange cap and thought he was seeing deer hair. He was chairman of the a deer stalkers branch - that one.

Do statistics indicate how many blaze orange wearing 'mistaken for deer' accidents occur?

[OnHoPr]

The science of how a deer sees has been around to my knowledge since the 60's - 70's. At first they thought that deer just seen in shades of black, whites, and greys. Then in the 80's and early 90's the researchers discovered that the deer had different rods and cones structure then previously believed and could see UV light shades. Then certain types of soaps and camo (dyes) was developed to help camo. This is just a little more advanced of the evolution of deer sight science. As technology increases so does the aspects of determining just possibly what a deer really sees. I know I don't use any type of colorfast or brightener detergents on my hunting clothes. I have seen on occasion, "no way they seen me", like standing in a tree stand 18 feet up (occasional stand) like a statue in a pine with cover and be 45 yards away and through thicker pine branches with 15 mph winds from them to me look right at me and turn and head back the way they came. I am not sure, but I am not a scientist either.

http://www.buckmasters.com/are-deer-completely-color-blind-3.aspx

http://huntervids.com/videos/science-of-nothing-e3-deer-vision/

[303Guy]

Thanks OnHoPr. That video (huntervids) is just what I was looking for. OK, it's a product promotional video but if true is great. That camo pattern and function is what I'm thinking of (but don't know how to achieve). Now to make it so other hunters can see it for our safety (or should it be not see it for our safety?)

In my openening post I said pink is supposed to be invisible to deer. It also registers female to men. Now contrary to popular belief, we do not have large brains so we can do math and stuff, it's so we can recognize females! In a crowd we will only notice the pretty girls (you can test this for yourselves).:bigsmyl2:

[300savage]

Well then why is it that alcohol affects our vision so much ? After a few drinks we suddenly start noticing the less than stellar examples of womanhood? Oh and time as well.. the closer it gets to closing time we suddenly graduate into a completely higher level of visual acuity ??
It is still a mystery to me..

[44man]

Blaze orange is the best camo made.
The worst is the real dark, tight patterns. Deer will spot a dark "blob" faster then anything.
Blend with the sky. I once was walking in my woods looking for acorns, bumped a big doe from a bed at 10 yards. She ran some and looked back so I played with her. She came back and laid down again. I was watching the squirrels all around as she licked her side.
I was wearing a white "T" shirt and blue work pants.
I have archery hunted in full leaf trees with snow camo and had 17 deer bumping into my ladder. I am only 12' high. My archery kills number around 250, I know deer and can fool them to come to me. I know camo.
Went into the camo section of the store once and it was like someone turned the lights off, not a single thing I would buy. ASAT and Treeline has been good. The more worn and faded the better.
Deer can't see the goofy patterns on camo, it just blends into "DARK" so stay away from it.
Deer have trouble seeing each other at dark and is why all the deer in front have tails up, tail end Charlies keep it down. Deer will pay you no heed in the dark either and if you boot one, he will sneak back and watch you. A big buck can stand 10 feet from you and watch you try to sneak up a treestand. Your hunting is done for that guy.
Two seasons ago I spotted a deer looking at me from over 100 yards while revolver hunting and walking. I made her come right to me, shot her about 25 yards. Blaze orange coat.
I have never found a single use for scent sprays or all the fancy junk sold but I do use UV killer and the soaps. Deer will see the glow if you don't.
I take a shower with Zest and use Mennen deoderant, walk right to deer with the wind at my back. I also go to my stand on the same trails deer use and shoot 5 to 7 a season depending on what me and neighbors need for meat.
I have taken to hunting from the ground more with revolvers, shoot deer from 10 feet to 100 yards. I made a nice wood seat with a folding back, thick cushion. Stainless, shiny guns that make no noise when cocked, BFR's and Rugers. Toss the "click" monster Colt actions. Never snap off a safety.
Deer are easy! My total is between 450 and 500.
My friend does what I do and is unlimited. He gets a minimum of 17 a year, feeds the poor and old.
Watch the hunting movies, they just have more money, time and are selling junk. They are no better then you in your old ragged clothes. Got so bad with mine I had to sew a big "V" in the back to fit my big belly!

[1Shirt]

Good story Goodsteel, and I as usual tend to agree with 44 Man. I remember 50-60 or more years ago, deer hunters where I grew up (Western N.Y.) were considered well dressed if they could afford L.L.Bean red and black plad, wool hunting jackets, with a hat with a brim and ear flaps to match, and a pair of Bean hunting boots. The majority of folks (farm community) just wore what was warm however. I do recall a deer hunt when I was about 16 yrs old however when Dad had one of the Bean jackets (he was very proud of it), and at mid day, he posted me on a stand for a drive. It was a bright sunny day with maybe an inch or two of snow on the ground. As he walked away from me (pretty much open woods area) I pretty much lost sight of him with the red and black blending into just black at probably 60 yds or less. I frankly welcomed the introduction of Int. Orange, and really like my Gander Mountain Orange and black camo that I bought many years ago. With it and an orange stocking cap, I feel safe during deer season except from the most inexperienced numbnut, who just hast to glass me with a scoped rifle instead of bionics.
1Shirt!

[44man]

Yeah, nothing warmer then those old wool jackets even when wet. I still use Bean boots. I used my army wool pants for years until I could not fit. Dress greens for deer----YEAH!
I have to say the black on the orange camo does nothing at all. Just blaze orange, full body if you want.
But you seen the blend into black, not good with deer. Blend into white or gray is better. ASAT takes on colors around and you can't see it past a certain distance. We did tests with ASAT, friend with ASAT pants and dark camo jacket. He walked a field and his legs vanished. He got in a stand and I could only see the jacket. Funny to see half a guy!

[303Guy]

The orange is supposed to look grey to all ungulates. It's likely that the full body orange had been washed in UV enhancers (fabric brighteners). Beyond that it could be the large solid grey mass they see. That would look very unnatural to them.

I was watching an advert youtube video saying how bad green cammo is because it's is seen as a large dark mass. I'd say apart from the large mass, green is what deer see and maybe even as green. The reports on that study vary between saying deer see green to deer seeing yellow. Now that's coming from the same study - at least they're citing the same study. So which is it? Green or yellow? Yellow is pretty close to orange.

We could take color photo's in a picture viewer and remove the red to get an idea of what deer see.

[303Guy]

So I played a little with a photo in Picasa. The subject was wearing a red top, the grass was green and the hare a reddish brown. In grey-scale the hair looks like the grass and the red shirt is a grey solid mass that sticks out like a sore thumb. With two tone using blue and yellow the red shirt looks like a lighthouse! Two tone in Picasa does not allow grey-scale to be added so the picture is not complete.

Remember that orange can be a mix of red and yellow! If deer can see yellow the orange blaze is going to be a give away. So, not all blaze orange are equal.

[SeabeeMan]

The last bit of real research I saw on this was that they do indeed see color but they are significantly more sensitive to the blue end of the spectrum. OnHoPr stated the same as I read as well, that their vision most likely stretches beyond what we can see into the UV section of the EM spectrum due to their cone structure.

[JeffinNZ]

What about purple? [smilie=p:

[303Guy]

Yes Jeff. They will see you. :mrgreen: They should see it quite strongly since they can see UV and purple is a shorter wavelength.

[Stephen Cohen]

I enjoyed this thread, all have made some good points, I think Tim has explained why I never wear camo. I have always hunted in light coloured clothing, my one and only deer hunt last year, resulted in my first deer. I was wearing a cream T shirt, but when I spotted him I froze, Im sure he had heard me but could not see me I just waited till he looked away and took him. I believe if you don't spook game with movement and remain silent with wind in your face your good. Tim you can hunt with me anytime, many would have taken that shot.

[303Guy]

Studies on deer eyesights are a bit thin on the ground and is of course quite difficult to do. We know they have dichromatic vision, that they have good night vision, a broad field of view and less acuity than humans We know they see into the ultraviolet spectrum and have way better blue sensitivity. What we don't know is how they perceive things.

Human vision on the other hand is well understood. Comparing our vision to a deer, we have better binocular vision and a very good central vision which deer lack. So they can't see print. Their vision might be something like our near peripheral vision but more uniform. So how how might they actually see? Well, they lack the red color cone but how significant is that really? Take a look at our own eyes sensitivity.

8174981750
Rods - 500nm peak. Blue - 440 nm peak. Green - 535 nm peak. Red - 570 nm peak

Notice how little difference the red cones actually make. Dee would see red as grey green or just green. They would see green well, not as black as some have suggested (cammo advertisements). Notice that our green cones see further into red than do our rods. Of course we don't know the range of deer rods or for that matter, their cones.

We might assume that deer do not perceive yellow as yellow but as green. Blaze orange is getting into their range of less sensitivity and since they'll see it as green grey or green, it might be considered a good cammo color (provided the orange dye is orange and not red and yellow - yellow would be a bright green to them being at about their most sensitive green cone range. Green might even look yellow to them!

It seems to me that a good cammo would have a tan basic background broken with dark green and brown random stripes, maybe even pixelated for close range effect. I seems that surface flaps help break the outline even further. As luck would have it, we can buy such cammo gear ready made as a cover-all, hood and all.

[OnHoPr]

Back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's there really wasn't these computer thingies at least where I was. There was the odd tv clip and magazines that every once in a while had a story published about deer's vision. You could hardly research it also. As science has evolved into the perception of deer sight and more studies done more info is available for the hunter and more debates are made. Interesting last post 303guy.

[Corbi]

This is a great thread! Thank you for starting it.

The old timers I started deer hunting with years ago told me to wear anything I want except blue jeans or white. I assumed that the deer would see the white cord in the jeans. Kind of how the jeans look under black light.

If they see blue then that makes sense.

My favorite hunting clothes are heavy canvas pants in any earth tone and a plaid wool shirt in any color combination.

I also use camo break up blaze orange vest and hat. I believe solid colors need to be broken up.

I have had deer walk right up to me. IMO, they key on movement more than color.......let's not forget about scent too!

Corbi

[44man]

I see some of you do wrong when a deer sees you. Don't ever freeze, it scares the heck out of deer if they seen you move before. If they run, they will go behind something and watch you until you move again so all you see is tails going.
Just stop and become a deer. Lightly stamp your foot at them, it is a recognition signal. If the deer stamps at you and you don't answer, they leave. Bob your upper body at them just like a deer does to you. They can NOT tell you are a man unless you act like a predator.
When you walk, walk like a deer and don't worry about noise, noise is everywhere in the woods. It is how they hear a clod walking, I make little noise when I walk but my friends sound like a herd of cows.
High frequency sound scares them big time, stuff you can't hear.
The most fun I had was when I tracked a bunch in the snow. I came face to face with them, played with them, did not want to shoot any but I did raise my revolver, put it away. Then a young one took off and ran behind me, I could hear it running circles. All of a sudden it came right next to me, arms length and just looked at the rest of the herd. Here we were, side by side. I looked at him and he never looked at me. You don't know what you are missing.
I once stayed right behind a herd feeding across 500 yards of field, less then 40 yards. I was never looked at because I made them think I was just a deer.
Once you settle deer you can walk around, kneel down, go to a tree to lean on. You can raise a bow or gun. Best is to just watch and learn.
I figured them out my very first year bow hunting. Seen what they did to me and laid in my sleeping bag trying to beat them. Next day I became a deer, shot one in Ohio, one in PA and one in MI. Back then it took an archer 15 years to kill a deer.
The best thing you can do is watch the deer and do the same things they do.
Lesson one---NEVER FREEZE. What do you think you are, a LION? Why is a lion the same color as game? It is because deer have trouble seeing each other but we can't go hunting looking like game or we will be shot. Deer have the perfect camo and even a dog will not see them unless they move. I have held my dogs head towards a standing deer a thousand times and she can't see them until they move.
Consider backdrop. If you are lighter they have trouble but if you are darker they hone in on you right quick.
I made the first lighted bow sights, I developed the method to tune a broadhead in 5 minutes with a compound that Easton now uses. My camo stuff is now being done more, even Realtree is going lighter. I wrote my stuff and sent it out but was rejected. Now more and more is being used, just like our members here have found my revolver loading works.
Never made a dime, never wanted a dime, just say who figured it out.

[Oreo]

Definitive answers to all these questions can be had if the right kind of study is done. I learned about it in a college psychology class about how animals learn. Lots of neat info in that class but a few studies involving pigeons' vision would do perfectly with deer.

Basically, a pigeon was trained to peck at colored buttons and correct choices were rewarded with food pellets. Once the pigeon was trained it's vision could be systematically tested for color perception by changing the colors of the buttons.

[waksupi]

I really don't care if deer can see color. It has been my experience that movement and odor is what to be aware of. And as 44man says, it's the KIND of movement that bothers them.

[44man]

303, NO, don't need all the trash and tight patterns. Deer can't see the sticks and leaves on you.
I hunted for years with a face mask but needing glasses made it harder so now I gave them up. I have not ever spooked a deer with my bare face or a gun. My hands never spooked a deer. I don't need camo arrows or guns, save them for ducks, geese and turkey, birds that see better.
Most of that junk is to make you spend money.
I really only believe in the fabric brighteners that glow in the ultra violet range, from there on you can use even white if you kill the glow.
There is no use to break up blaze orange. The camo made is to trap you into buying it.

[nekshot]

Don't move, stay downwind and never look into their eyes. I could have stuck an arrow into some by hand. Camo is fine if you think you need it. I was archery hunting a few years back and a freak down pour came in on me and the only rain gear I had was a blaze orange poncho. I pulled it on and settled in against a oak tree trunk and a flock of turkeys came feeding in the rain right up to me and some almost brushed against me. They fed on by and never knew I was there. So much for turkeys seeing color and it spooking them!

[44man]

Don't know much about turkeys, never had the interest but have had them real close. Did a lot of duck hunting long ago but still not sure.
Wonder about Geese because they fly at night. Had a DC 8 come in one midnight with windshield smashed from geese at 30,000 feet. What a mess. Most birds roost or settle to water at dark. Dark is when deer get active but with a bright moon they feed more at night. Bed sooner. Deer have movement patterns that change day to day. Watch the same deer every day and the time you see them will change every day. It is a cycle. Mornings you reach your stand and deer have already gone by. You will see nothing. When you reach your stand and hear deer close, go home. Come back at noon or so.
Now when a lot of acorns are there and deer have already passed, sit tight, They just have to return for more. Same with fruits like Persimmon. Seen then stuff themselves, go 150 yards and turn around to get more.
Now if you bust a herd and they run in all directions, stay put. Some are lost and want to find the others so they come back looking for the rest.
Track deer to an opening, stop and wait. They will run into another hunter and come back to you. They always return because it was safe that way.
Track deer over a hill, get off the trail and sneak off to the side to peak over the hill on your belly. They will be looking up the back trail.
Track deer in snow, step in tracks. They circle so you must know the new tracks. Had a herd walk past my truck six times before I got a shot. I never failed to track in snow and shoot one. I love snow.
If you are a trophy hunter, stay away from all the tracks, track one deer. I don't trophy hunt, I meat hunt. Killed too many bucks I could not eat. Beat your chest but I will shoot the doe with the buck. I will not eat an old milk cow or a gray old buck. I like lamb but hate sheep.

[303Guy]

Thank you 44man. Your lessens are most valuable.

I was thinking of breaking our outline so as to make our movement hard for deer to see or at least to make our movement seem in place.

I know about animals standing still and watching hunters as they go past. The moment one sees them they bolt.

I came to realise that just walking along chatting doesn't disturb animals. I did notice that as soon as we stopped as we came across them they got nervous.

One day we were walking along hunting hare when I saw one hiding right next to the patch. I carried on past as I loaded my gun then turned back to it and it bolted. I should have stopped and looked at it while I was loading. Hares do that, they play dead.

Tukey can be real dumb. After a lot of shooting they start getting smart, or the survivors are the smarter ones. Those one can't get anywhere near. Pea fowl are smart and get real hard to get after they've been shot at even at a distance.

[44man]

It has been a lot of fun. I had a stand way back in that I always spooked deer when I snuck in, never seen them again. Then it hit me! As I walked in I made all kinds of noise. My tree stand was a home made thing with a chain and binder, I beat the chain on the wood and even when climbing my tree I kept it up and never got quiet until I was seated with bow in hand. I made a huge ruckis. Idea was to move the deer away before I got there.
It worked, 10 minutes after getting quiet, a buck walked right under me to see what all that noise was. He went in my freezer!
Once I found an apple tree with not much to get into. Found a pine close so I set my bow and stuff on the ground, climbed the tree and was breaking branches and shaking the tree like a nut, trying to find a way to shoot out of it. I looked under the apple tree, not 20 yards away, to see deer eating apples.
Movement will alert deer, so will noise but the bottom line is to act like another deer. Deer are not that quiet and break branches, limbs fall, lot of natural sounds. If you break a branch to see deer looking, are you done? Heck no, just turn into another deer. But a bow or the clicks of cocking a hammer is out of place so I figured it was the frequency. The faster bows get, the harder it is to get them quiet and keep sound in the low frequency range.
You know how I load revolvers, I don't believe a thing and I have hunted the same way.
I have discussed this noise with bow makers and they don't believe me at all. I told them to blow a silent dog whistle near deer.
One of the reasons so many deer get hit on the roads is cars are way too quiet in the high frequency range. They hate my Polaris, not the engine but the plastic roof vibrates against the steel tubing. Before I put the roof on, they just stood there.
Here is something else fun. Strange deer will not pass each other. Even a doe decoy will have deer feed on one side but they don't pass the decoy. Deer in an area know each other but if some come in they accept each other but I never seen them blend or pass. Not the same as when they herd up.
Once I was on the ground after getting out of a tree. Turned to see a little buck on the other side of the fence. I could not arrow him, poor, skinny little thing. I played with him and he walked all around, eating this and that but kept coming back because he wanted to go home. Must have been an hour. I blocked his trail. Finally he walked down to another trail, jumped the fence and went on his way.
Another time I was just looking around, standing on a boulder. Seen a little buck coming down the trail next to the boulder. He walked within feet as I turned with him to watch, he never looked at me.
Gunfire does not scare deer. I have had a herd walk near me when shooting target. Had a herd bedded at 200 when I shot 100, walked back to shoot 200 and they got up. Shoot one and the rest only run if the shot one does. I shot a big doe once out of a herd, she dropped and the rest bedded. If you miss, the sonic boom scares the one you shot at. You can miss with a revolver and the deer might not run.
You all have read that when a deer stamps it's feet, it is a danger signal and no other deer will go near the danger scent. Toss that book in the trash, there is no other scent on a deer's hoof then what all other deer know. They can't change it. The stamp is just communication.
I know the Whitetail but none of the others so It would be great to hear all of your findings, how about mule deer, etc.
Notice how guys hold a bow overhead and imitate a moose? Yeah, yeah, so bear with me.

[jlchucker]

303, NO, don't need all the trash and tight patterns. Deer can't see the sticks and leaves on you.
I hunted for years with a face mask but needing glasses made it harder so now I gave them up. I have not ever spooked a deer with my bare face or a gun. My hands never spooked a deer. I don't need camo arrows or guns, save them for ducks, geese and turkey, birds that see better.
Most of that junk is to make you spend money.
I really only believe in the fabric brighteners that glow in the ultra violet range, from there on you can use even white if you kill the glow.
There is no use to break up blaze orange. The camo made is to trap you into buying it.

That's kind of what I figure, too. I've had does walk right up close to me while I've been sitting still, under a tree. They'd look, look again, and eventually walk away. As long as you don't make sudden moves, deer don't seem to pay much attention. I think those does were curious from human smell, not sight. I normally hunt (still) with a red and black jacket, or green and black. And yes, I do carry a levergun most of the time. Too old to change, I guess. I've got nothing against camo. For some kinds of game, like turkeys, it's necessary. But turkeys may see differently than whitetail deer do.

[303Guy]

I've noticed that animals aren't phased by gunfire. We've heard of heart shot animals returning to feeding before collapsing.

Turkey hunting has been mentioned a few times, well, turkeys have good eyesight. Very good eyesight - three times better than our own plus they have six types of cones! Four basic with two doubles (color cones with color filters) so they see color difference we don't plus they have UV receptor cones. We have feral turkey which are not as smart as your wild turkeys. They do fly but seem to prefer flying downhill.

[44man]

All I can say is to never let what you see go to waste. There is always a lesson. Failure was my teacher. Failure is always the teacher. I just could not let it go by.
Don't get flusterd (where is my spell check?) You will fail as I have, but don't let it go and do the same things over and over. You only increase failure. Toss the hunting books.
A deer you can't get is nothing, let it go, you need not kill every deer you see, so enjoy the moment.
I have lowered my bow or holstered my revolver to watch. Funny to have deer bump into my hanging bow. No need to pay for a class, the teachers are all around, free.

[MBTcustom]

All I can say is to never let what you see go to waste. There is always a lesson. Failure was my teacher. Failure is always the teacher. I just could not let it go by.
Don't get flusterd (where is my spell check?) You will fail as I have, but don't let it go and do the same things over and over. You only increase failure. Toss the hunting books.
A deer you can't get is nothing, let it go, you need not kill every deer you see, so enjoy the moment.
I have lowered my bow or holstered my revolver to watch. Funny to have deer bump into my hanging bow. No need to pay for a class, the teachers are all around, free.

There is wisdom a-plenty in these words. Very well put, and it applies to every aspect if our sport and to life in general.

[truckjohn]

On the subject of color vision.... Since they eat weedy things and plants... but they selectively pick and choose what to eat because they can't digest wood and cellulose... I would expect their vision in the Greens and Browns to actually be pretty good... It's gotta be so they can tell what is right to eat and what is not right to eat... and so they can find Nuts mixed into the detritus of the forest floor.... where to Us.. that stuff is basically invisible (Till you step on it barefoot....)

For example - cows will eat AROUND the grass recently "Fertilized" by other cows... The darker green grass isn't as attractive... once the extra nitrogen wears off (It takes 2-3 months) and the color fades - then, they will eat it.... I suppose this protects them somewhat from parasites transmitted through poo....

In our case - it's how we get thrown off at the supermarket in the produce section by chemically ripened fruits... Oh, they are so pretty and colorful and shiny... Our body says "It must be Ripe and Good to eat"... But.. It's not.... It's only colored that way to fool us to buy it....

It's an interesting thing to think about... Perhaps Green and Brown pattern Camoflages to deer would be the analog of someone trying to hide from us by wearing super duper bright Fruit color patterns....

Thanks

[303Guy]

44man, did you write that article Walk among Deer? I don't remember where I got it from.


Perhaps Green and Brown pattern Camoflages to deer would be the analog of someone trying to hide from us by wearing super duper bright Fruit color patterns....
They may see brown as 'less green'. What is brown made up of? Some red I should think, which they can't see as red. Can one see color in moonlight? Deer probably can, after all, they feed at night. Do deer feed in cloudy weather at night? Some antelope come out at night even on a moonless night but I don't know about cloudy. In misty weather they do. Bushpigs come out on misty nights. I have myself been out on clear starlit nights without a torch but not in a forest - that's way too dark.

You know a funny thing about ungulate eyes is their pupils are slotted like a goats. We only see that on a goat because they have pale irus while other ungulates have dark irus that blends with the pupil.

[44man]

Yes I did 303. I hope you enjoyed it. Free to anyone that sends me an E mail.
I once needed a few bucks but treasure friends more today. I get along better now, no more bills other then basic. TAAAAAXES worst!

[siamese4570]

I use just plain old army surplus woodland camo and have for nearly 40 years. I've had deer walk right up to me but I didnt move and had the wind on them. thiswas while wearing a blaze orange vest and hat. I do use a face net and gloves and never look them in the eyes. they can seem to sense that. just my $0.02 worth.
siamese4570

[dragon813gt]

Some guys just like to dress the part. I do have camo clothing but during archery rarely wear it. This has to do with going straight to my stand after work in my work clothes. This consists of either beige or grey dickies and either a red or black shirt. I typically smell of fuel oil from cleaning heaters all day. I've never taken a deer when wearing camo, which is on the weekends because I have time to dress and don't want to mess up my good clothing. I've taken my fair share of deer in my work clothes smelling like fuel oil :)

I wish I could make the other hunters on the farm understand the noise part. They get really mad when I leave my stand and walk the tree lines. I don't stomp around but I don't try to hide my travels. It almost always succeeds in brining a few my way. Maybe the other hunters get mad because they feel that those are their deer since they usually come from their area? We don't hunt close to each other so it's no concern of theirs. If they leave a note at my stand, like they do every year, I will post it for comic relief :laugh:

[303Guy]

You must have sent it me then. I did indeed enjoy reading it. Very valuable too. Thank you kindly. (Funny how my memory has failed me - I don't remember reading it before yet I surely must have!) Have you been able to interest outdoor magazines in it? It's a great right up.

Interesting point about dressing for the part. I've always had my favourite hunting gear and favourite fishing cap and shirt. I'm putting new hunting gear together and that will be influenced by this thread. I'm dropping my greens. My new warm stuff is olive green which is pretty neutral in our bush but a cammo waterproof jacket with blaze orange might still enter the scene. I'm still to decide on that.

Here is an idea of how deer might see (apart from the detailed clarity).

82065

This is a photo using a cyan filter that cuts out the red wavelengths. See the green tops. Since deer don't have a red cone I'd think they don't perceive yellow, just a darker shade of green.

I've become quite aware of the make up of colors, like pink is a mix of red and blue as is purple so deer might see pink and purple as shades of blue. I haven't figure out what makes brown.

I'm thinking that attempts to depict what deer see with reds missing but showing yellows and greys are incorrect. They might see the sky the same as we do.

There seems to be a discrepancy as to what the primary colors are. Some say red blue and yellow while others say red green and blue. Mixing red green and blue produces white while mixing red blue and yellow does not. Which is correct?

[44man]

I tried and was rejected. It needs edited badly and to do it and publish on my own was out of the question. Same as everything else like my bow tuning. I learned a lot about writers and editors. I killed a lot of nice bucks but hate the meat, but the secret to get published is to kill a book deer or any animal even if you luck into one. You need to also live where there are trophy deer but I lost interest long ago, can't boil horns long enough to eat and I refuse to kill what goes to waste. I see a huge buck and let him breed but will sure shoot the doe with him, he will find more.
I don't understand the fixation on antlers. The wisest deer in the woods is an old doe.
I never got into color blends at all. Just don't look darker then where you are. You can be one color or large patches without dark little branches, etc. Tight patterns mean nothing. Blaze orange is great but red will be darker to deer, maybe look black. I prefer the orange. Why they put a black mix into blaze orange baffles me. You can wear blaze orange or all white or gray in green brush or leaves. I have to think you just look like an opening to them. The deer really can't see all those marks and streaks, they just blend.
Before the glow was found from brighteners in detergents, I had deer spot an elbow out the side of a tree. Bought a black light and it was unreal. That is one thing I believe in. Deer DO see some things out of place. Their vision is pretty good in the spectrum they see. They see a strand of wire.
What everyone forgets is they know every single thing where they live, every stump and branch and if you step in there with your dark camo, you entered their living room. It is instant if you are there when they come, you can't hide even behind brush.
Indians had to be real close to kill deer. They did a lot to hide scent but hunted in buckskins and even a naked indian did not spook deer.
Scent is something I never worried about, Had friends that had super stinky feet. Gag a maggot. My grandson burns my nose with underarms. It is bacteria that makes stink. Deer smell that right quick.
Urine does not scare deer. Some carry a bottle but I pee out of the stand, pee on buck scrapes. Spit baccy juice out of the stand too. Deer walk right under me.
Put an artical of clothing or a pack on the ground and a deer will bolt but not from where you walked. I hang stuff when putting a stand up. But a day later it is all gone if you put something down. Deer do not want to leave the area they live in. Bucks will move far in rut, as much as 15 square miles. They are not welcome where they were born, inter breeding not natural. A doe will boot her buck into another area.
Just observe and change quick with failure.

[MBTcustom]

I never got into color blends at all. Just don't look darker then where you are. You can be one color or large patches without dark little branches, etc. Tight patterns mean nothing. Blaze orange is great but red will be darker to deer, maybe look black. I prefer the orange. Why they put a black mix into blaze orange baffles me. You can wear blaze orange or all white or gray in green brush or leaves. I have to think you just look like an opening to them. The deer really can't see all those marks and streaks, they just blend.
Before the glow was found from brighteners in detergents, I had deer spot an elbow out the side of a tree. Bought a black light and it was unreal. That is one thing I believe in. Deer DO see some things out of place. Their vision is pretty good in the spectrum they see. They see a strand of wire.
What everyone forgets is they know every single thing where they live, every stump and branch and if you step in there with your dark camo, you entered their living room. It is instant if you are there when they come, you can't hide even behind brush.
Indians had to be real close to kill deer. They did a lot to hide scent but hunted in buckskins and even a naked indian did not spook deer.
Scent is something I never worried about, Had friends that had super stinky feet. Gag a maggot. My grandson burns my nose with underarms. It is bacteria that makes stink. Deer smell that right quick.
Urine does not scare deer. Some carry a bottle but I pee out of the stand, pee on buck scrapes. Spit baccy juice out of the stand too. Deer walk right under me.


I know exactly what you mean!
Shortly after I got into deer hunting on public land, I got all the really good Realtree camo pants, camo shirts, camo boots, hat's, gloves, you name it. I doused myself in Carbon Blast, and washed my clothes in baking soda. I washed myself in baking soda too.
I went to hunt a new area in Cass Canyon with some friends, and we got there at 0 dark 30 and my buddy told me to just walk into the woods about 1/2 a mile and climb the hill when I got to it. Well, it was pitch black, overcast, and no moon. I stumbled my way along till I found the hill and I climbed up till I thought I could see a good ways. I was pretty winded, so I sat down in a comfortable spot and decided to wait till daylight to get my bearings a little more and adjust my position as necessary.
Well, the spot I picked was more comfortable than I planned on.
I woke up to a deer snort.
My eye's popped open and I realized it was broad daylight, and I was flat on my back sleeping like Rip Van Winkle.
My muzzle loader was by my hand, and my heart was racing.
I carefully looked towards where the snort had come from, and there was a good sized doe standing not 10 yards from me.
I watched her for a minute, and then decided to see if I could get into a shooting position undetected.
About the time I lifted my head off the ground she bolted and ran away.
I sat up and got my bearings (Lord I was foggy headed) and realized that I had fallen asleep right on an old game trail!
I concluded that camo clothing just doesn't work as well as advertized (LOL!)

These days, I just hunt in faded camo (probably the remnants of all that truck I bought way back when) and I have had deer feeding within mere feet of me, and they were not alarmed by my presents. I also found that it is not necessary to hold completely still while in the woods. Just move naturally. I found out that as long as I wait till the deer's head goes behind a tree, I could do jumping jacks and get away with it.
It was funny a couple years ago when I took my little brother hunting with me. I set him up in a tree with his bow about 75 yards from me. He was trying so hard to hold still, he stuck out like a sore thumb. Every deer that walked by saw him and gave him a wide birth, then walked right under my tree. Frustrated him to no end.

[popper]

303guy - you seen this before? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PlanckianLocus.png
Don't look them in the eye? Can you get that close? Uh, deer eat rose bushes, the whole thing, so they do digest cellulose.
Goodsteel did that myself, sitting in a folding chair next to the trail and woke up when GS spooked one about 20' away. Wearing a watch cap, jeans & a camo jacket. Only got the jacket (hoodie style)cause it had a hood & zipper to use when walking the dog.

[303Guy]

I saw something similar just yesterday but without the temperature color. I'm still trying to make out what the x and y axis are. It's interesting how broad the color green is.

Ok, so deer cannot discern fine patterns or just don't care. I was thinking that using finer patterning to bread up the larger and lighter area would do so without an obvious bright or dark spot. In trying to understand what a deer sees I've been looking at objects with my near peripheral vision and details do disappear. What is visible are colord or shaded patches. In my far peripheral vision I can make out fingers but cannot distinguish between three and four fingers.

ASAT cammo works on the theory of reflecting colors or light from the surroundings and the black and brown random strips break the solid mass. But maybe it works well for the reasons given by 44man. What I like about it is that it in no way resembles a deer. It tends to look like nothing.

Did you folks know that Europeans have a different peripheral vision range to Africans? We have a wider field of view while they have a better central vision. I put this to a test with one guy and sure enough, he could not see out at 90° with eyes forward while I can but then he could read ordinary print at 3yds while I could not.

Anyway, if one looks at greenery one notices a wide range of greens. Well, I tried a a pink filter (my driving glasses) and became aware of how much red is in leaves. Mostly young leaves of some trees. I'd imagine those young lighter colored leaves look darker to a deer.

Here's an interesting observation. Go to this site and try the following; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye_movements_of_a_chess_champion_nc.jpg
Look at the lower right chest piece in the circle and notice the top left in your peripheral vision. One can see the oval clearly but not the black pieces. Then notice the top right and one can clearly make out the large black piece. Now look at the top right black piece and notice the bottom right and the light grey pieces in the circle are invisible!

It's been said that a white shirt doesn't seem to spook a deer. Well, white is made up of red green and blue. Take away the red and we have cyan which is a softer pale color. Still visible but not jarring. I bet some foliage looks cyan to deer.

[nekshot]

44man, simply reading your input and expierances makes me feel like I know you and hunted with you in the past. Amazing when someone puts in writing what you have found to be true gives you a feeling of kinship! This is off thread but it might help others also. I have a series of ravines near my house. Big buck love the top of this area. I can not enter it with out spooking deer. I went early at 3:30 one morning and chased deer up out of beds. I have taken 2 nice buck(I am not a rack hunter) from this knob by calling and rattling. They came right on looking for a fight. I want to hunt up in this area but when I do go in and sit I don't see anything. Frustrating because this is one area I cannot win, by entering it. Any ideas?

[303Guy]

Went to a farm digs once and this resident turned up carrying a rack. It looked like a big animal so I was expecting a lot of meat. Then when nothing was brought in I asked where it was. Well, he said he had to shoot the deer several times in the rump to bring it down so there was nothing worth bringing home. What can I say? He deliberately shot it in the rear! All he wanted was the rack!

[303Guy]

After playing around a little I've come up with how a scene might appear to a deer.

Here's how we perceive the scene and what I deer might perceive.

8216482174

Another example with less acuity.

8217082171

I'd say that fella is busted! He doesn't look human but he's not invisible either. But will he actually spook a deer? In the top images it would seem that cammo those two guys are wearing is not all that effective.

[OnHoPr]

I am still not sure of how camo is used to its full potential with the real deer's vision, but I have wore a number of camo patterns in the 40+ years. It is hard to actually camo yourself in all the situations or terrains such as in still hunting. None the less it can help break up your outline in certain staged situations like in a blind that you built just like in most adds for camo. If one were to get camo for every situation there is your wives and girlfriends would look conservative clothes shopping camopared to the outdoorsmen. I still believe there is something to the brighteners and UV's. I know if I see a deer and I have the chance, the hunter orange hat comes off for the deliberation of the shot. A lot of US forest because of big Teddy have Red and Norway pine plantations in them which is a combined effort of the US Forest Service and US Dept of Agriculture and they are great trees for tree stands, but I have never seen a camo pattern produced to blend with them. I know that mossy oak, woodland, treebark, or whatever else sticks out like a sore thumb in them. Still I have shot deer out of them, and at times with no wind in the evening and cig smoke rising vertical from the cooling thermals have had deer look right up at me being 35' in the tree in the open in camo. Sometimes they can notice you and sometimes they can't. I suppose there is a factor of what's on their mind and the tension or relaxation of the situation.

[303Guy]

If you have a camera with you take some photo's and play with them on http://pixlr.com/editor/ with Google Chrome. That's what I did those red removal and detail reducing. That might give some idea of cammo requirements or effectiveness.

[Kull]

Great discussion, learned some new stuff. In my experience, bow and rifle hunting, color was the last thing that ever spooked a deer. Smell would probably be the first, but you never see those deer. Movement is what has caused me to spook deer the most. Sound seems to put them on high alert but movement is what gets them bounding off into the distance.

[303carbine]

I took a nice Vancouver Island Blacktail on the 17th of Sept/13, I was wearing a dark blue pull over sweater with a camo vest with blue jeans and no face paint. The deer stepped out onto a road about 75 yds away, I doubt it saw me because it stood there looking all around. I do think it scent busted me from all the looking around it was doing, I think it was looking for movement to associate the scent with.
I was laying prone underneath a small leafy green tree with grass in front of me with just the barrel of the rifle sticking out.
I don't think my profile was over a foot tall overall, perhaps the deer was looking for something bigger?
I didn't make any fast movements, just a slow motion to take the safety off of the Model 70 30-06. I had been laying in wait for about an hour, so I had time to adjust the bi-pod to the exact height for that particular shooting position.
I don't believe the deer ever saw me, but I'm convinced he knew I was around somewhere.
I believe that scent and movement are often the first warning signs to deer of human or predator presense.

[popper]

303guy, I think you have it nailed, contrast, motion and luminosity (brightness). Just as WWI naval experience, don't need much. Humans have much more visual recognition capability, fancy camo just makes sales.
Oh, that chart is a 3 axis chart, RGB around the perimeter, HUMAN eye response. If I find the net link to the interactive version I'll post it. Drag your mouse to a point and it shows the color. 2 color chart isn't bad but the 4 color is real difficult to use. Artists typically use the alternate color palette as they are using reflected light off pigmented paint.
http://www.biyee.net/color-science/cie-chromaticity-diagram/CIEFullPage.html
A fun one. Click on the no added white. If you think deer can't see red, just keep the mouse away from that side. The color points are constant, only the brightness (amount of each color) changes.
Note that orange is a very hard to create color BUT is easy to see! That is why the artists/sign painters use the yellow pallet.

[303Guy]

Thanks popper. That's a cool link. Now I can understand what makes color. I realised that the primary colors depend on who's using it, be it for additive or subtractive color.

In trying to understand what I a deer actually sees I realized that simply removing red from an image is incorrect. They do see red light, only they see it as green. So, I took a photo outside and used Pixlr Editor to change red to green. I also reduced the acuity quite a bit. This may be far off but it does show the effects of seeing red with green eye cones. Notice the car tail lights. I've tried to replace all red with green.

8224782248

[44man]

44man, simply reading your input and expierances makes me feel like I know you and hunted with you in the past. Amazing when someone puts in writing what you have found to be true gives you a feeling of kinship! This is off thread but it might help others also. I have a series of ravines near my house. Big buck love the top of this area. I can not enter it with out spooking deer. I went early at 3:30 one morning and chased deer up out of beds. I have taken 2 nice buck(I am not a rack hunter) from this knob by calling and rattling. They came right on looking for a fight. I want to hunt up in this area but when I do go in and sit I don't see anything. Frustrating because this is one area I cannot win, by entering it. Any ideas?
You have nothing to lose trying my noise trick. I banged the chain on the wood. Start making noise right away when you head in. No voices. Just be loud with low frequency banging. Break branches too, anything and keep it up until you are ready to shoot.
My idea was to move deer soon before I actually booted them or they seen me.

[44man]

Tree stand hunting does not have to be high, my highest is 15' because it is a ladder stand but tree sticks and a hanger will be about 12'.
I love my ground seat in gun season, just some backdrop behind me. Blaze orange and deer have been 10' from me many times. I might have taken more deer from that then anything with my revolvers. I will get a picture in season for you.
I have found I don't need to hide myself as hard.
Long ago with dark camo I spotted deer moving, went around wide and got near the trail and found a big brush pile to hide behind. Wind was in my face but as soon as the deer got to me, they spotted me and beat feet. Those early years were based on what I read because I was just starting out. Ohio had hardly any deer back then. The average time to shoot a deer with a bow was 15 years but I killed 3 the first year, Ohio, PA and MI.
Too much camo is based on what people see. Take snow camo in the fall, you really stick out and even feel exposed like a sore thumb but deer don't seem to pay attention.
There was a time we could only shoot a buck here with antlers so long in gun season. I found a herd of deer feeding, I played with them and moved very close, looking for a bigger buck, blaze orange. They moved and fed right around me and I followed them at around 30 yards. Nothing legal to shoot so I left but the herd did not run off. At no time did I stand still.
My hunting has been crazy stupid and so much fun that I wonder if I was an Indian in a previous life.
To be in the open with a bunch of deer feeding within yards is an experience.
Try things and it is no loss at all.
Here is one for you. Read about a guy stalking that held a bunch of leaves so when a deer spotted him he would let leaves fall, the deer would watch the leaves. Might work but you are still needing to raise the gun. Better to become a deer.

[popper]

303guy - I'll confuse you more. Years ago a study was done on human color perception. Theory was that we don't 'see' color. We have 2 color sensors, and derive 'color' by extremely rapid eye movement that causes something like doppler shift to discriminate the 'colors'. The movement was not muscles moving the eyeball but movement inside the eye. Just as taste and smell are hard to separate in humans, sight and smell are probably hard to separate in animal behavior.
digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1279&context=icwdm_usdanwrc

[303Guy]

That's an interesting theory. I could not get through to that address so I don't know what they're saying, however conventional wisdom has it that humans have three color cones and the sensitivity and range of each has been measured and studied, so one wonders.

[44man]

Just can't tell how animals see. I said deer have a hard time seeing each other at dark because I watched them a lot. Yet they see other things very good. There is no color at all in the dark, need light for color.
I take my little dog for a ride all the time and see a lot of deer in the day but she can't see them unless they move or back lighted. Just yesterday one was just off the road under a neighbors apple tree. My dog could not see it even when I turned her head at it, only when it moved did she look.
She has super vision, sees the tiniest bugs or a toad in the drive at night.
One thing I just thought of, do animals change the lens to focus? I never paid any attention with my dogs, have to watch but it doesn't appear that they do, hard to tell with the dark eyes.
Deer have no use to see towards the red spectrum, need a lot of rods, original night vision when there is no color to see. More needed to the ultra violet range. Red is the first color to turn black with a lack of light, green can still be seen by us much longer.
Blaze orange is the mystery with deer, it turns lighter, whether gray or white, who knows but red is most likely black to them. So man figured to add black patterns to red for camo when white is better to break up the red.

[MBTcustom]

303guy, can you modify a picture of a hunter in bright blaze orange? I'm curious to see how the colors get jacked with.
Very interesting thread here!

[nekshot]

44man, I will give it a try for sure. This is really gonna seem awkward as I was greatly influenced by hunting with an Iroquois indian. I marveled at his ability to glide unheard and almost unseen thru the woods. One time he took me to a spt he was seeing a big buck on regular basis and it was a new area to me. We used loggy bauja self climbers. I got up and settled in and about half hour later a lite went on in a bedroom of a house and this lady was moving around. I was only about 75 yards away and totally freaking out. I stayed put becuase I did not know where to go and I trusted my camo to keep me hidden. I did see the big buck but I really was not in the mood to hunt. He laughed!
nekshot

[Swamp Man]

Here is something that I never have been able to understand. Why do people put on camo and then put a bright orange vest over it? Why bother with trying to camo yourself then put something on that makes you stand out like a turd in a punch bowl?

[MBTcustom]

Here is something that I never have been able to understand. Why do people put on camo and then put a bright orange vest over it? Why bother with trying to camo yourself then put something on that makes you stand out like a turd in a punch bowl?

That's a good question. I hunt in blue jeans.

[303Guy]

I'd think deer do see red - with their green cones as well as with the rods so red would look green to them but because the green cones are less sensitive to red and can't see wavelenths longer than 670nm, they would see less of it. Also when we see green we are seeing it with our green and red cones which could be why yellow is so bright to us - we see it with two cones.

82506

How a red and yellow object may look to a deer.
8250782510

Blaze orange to green. Notice that the red printing is fainter
8251182505

Blaze orange with red removed which I would imagine to be incorrect.
82512
The red printing comes out too dark with simply removing red. I'd think the brightness of the second one above is more what they see (but with less acuity).

[Swamp Man]

That's a good question. I hunt in blue jeans.
Same here. That's just one of those things that's always made me go,Hummm?

[303Guy]

Found some Blaze orang hunting gear images.

8251482521
8251682520

The green might be a somewhat lighter shade. The cyan background is likely how deer see white.

[303Guy]

825248252582545
Blue jeans may be a little conspicuous. That blaze orange is so bright in sunlight it glows! The dark blue bottom half looks blue but out of sunlight it looks almost black. The blue jeans was with cloud cover.

[303carbine]

Apparently they do but there is good news - they cannot see pink! Even better, men see pink very well indeed - we associate pink with women and there's no way we would mistake a women for a deer and shoot her. We might shoot a man for wearing pink though. :roll:

What cammo do y'all wear when hunting deer? Considering that with cast boolits we do kinda need to get in closer - or do we?

Oh, pigs see red green and blue, deer see green and blue. Not sure how pigs see red and not deer but apparently deer don't see red very well so orange blaze does not glow light a light house to them.


Hi again 303guy,
I am going to try something a bit different this year, I am going to find a ratty old wool jacket and an old pair of jeans. I am going to put on my garb and work in the garden and get nice and dirty, then I will let it dry and see how that works. I think a few leaves and little sticks poking out of my pockets would add a 3D camo effect.
I guess deer won't be alarmed by a big mudpie.

[MT Gianni]

Here is something that I never have been able to understand. Why do people put on camo and then put a bright orange vest over it? Why bother with trying to camo yourself then put something on that makes you stand out like a turd in a punch bowl?

One instance is to not get shot on the way to your turkey set up, especially if carrying decoys. The other for reason of comfort, I have some wool camo bibs that are great to throw on over pants if the weather changes and Blaze Orange is required.

[303Guy]

I heard a story of these two guys walking along a track in the open when they saw a hunter at the bottom of the hill then a shot rang out and one of the guys dropped dead. The hunter said he thought it was a deer. That's the reason for blaze orange. But does it really work? Probably better than brown or olive green.

[Swamp Man]

I understand the blaze orange. I see to many people out in fields wearing camo that's not helping them one bit. I feel the same way about the guys I see in Fl wearing thick thermal outfits on 50 degree days. I guess a lot of my train of thought comes from always hunting on private land and farms. I also believe that any hunter should have a clear view of what their shooting at. But there are a lot of nuts that shoot because a branch moved or they heard something.

We had a case down here 8-9 years back where blaze orange was causing hunters to be targeted.There was a PETA fruitcake that thought killing animals was wrong so he started targeting blaze orange and was shooting hunter. With more and more fruitcakes in this world I question if blaze orange makes you safer or not.

[MBTcustom]

I heard a story of these two guys walking along a track in the open when they saw a hunter at the bottom of the hill then a shot rang out and one of the guys dropped dead. The hunter said he thought it was a deer. That's the reason for blaze orange. But does it really work? Probably better than brown or olive green.

Yes it works. Our laws require hunters to wear orange during any season that allows the use of a firearm. I am absolutely convinced it saves lives.

[dragon813gt]

Why do hunters wear camo w/ orange over top? So I don't have to buy more clothes to wear. No orange is required for turkey here. And it's almost as cold as the deer season so I wear the same clothes. No one thinks they're hiding w/ orange on. The public land I hunt has become so saturated w/ hunters its depressing. When light first breaks and you can count(because of the orange) twenty other hunters you might as well just quit for the day :(

[44man]

I really, really have a problem with a jerk thinking everything is a deer. Excitement is just too much for some. We need to protect ourselves. I can spot a deers leg at a very long distance and spot deer about anywhere so how does anyone mistake a man? I NEVER shoot unless it is safe and I see the actual deer. I can see a man in camo or any clothes.
I had a very very scary experience when I was a kid. A friend took me squirrel hunting with shotguns. He said he was going that way but we both heard a squirrel bark and he came back towards me in the thick so I did not see him. I seen what looked like a squirrel tail waving right where the barking was, you all know what that looks like. It was my friends hand going up and down to tell me to get down but I could not see the rest of him at all. Good thing I kept looking at it until I could make sure. Scared the living hell out of me just thinking of taking a shot. I still cringe over what he did. He put himself in danger but I was not stupid enough to shoot. That lesson has haunted me all my life about how a hunter can do the wrong thing. I was real young but it made me more aware all my life.
I went to a ML special hunt in Ohio. Talked to a lot of guys in camp and heard a black guy was out in the fields with a deer skin over him trying to sneak deer. All the guys seen what was going on and he did not get shot. A tribute to real hunters.

[Swamp Man]

The public land I hunt has become so saturated w/ hunters its depressing. When light first breaks and you can count(because of the orange) twenty other hunters you might as well just quit for the day :( On my way out to a friends farm I'v seen that on public dove fields a few times.To me it looks like an accident waiting to happen. I fish in hunting season also there is a few public hunting lands near the river and at times it's nothing to see 40-50 trucks lining the road way. If there ever comes a day those are the only places I can hunt that's the day I give up hunting.

[303Guy]

That's one advantage of using a scope. Once when hunting possum at night I saw this possum scrambling in the outer branches of a pine tree. I couldn't find it in my scope so I looked again and there it was. This happened about three times before I realized there was no possum there, just a bunch of brown pine leaves swaying in the wind. I still wonder about the guy shooting a blaze orange hood thinking he was looking at deer hair. Do you folks a problem with alcohol consumption on hunts? We had an 'accident' at a camp when this hunter shot his companion in the head at 100yds or so. He claimed he was 'cleaning' his gun when it went off. Never understood that one. I think I know what really happened, he was drunk and was aiming at his buddy who was taking a pee or something and forgot that his gun was loaded and pulled the trigger!

I was out in a forest with a guy with something blaze orange - a backpack maybe - and keeping track of him was a breeze. I on the other hand was wearing green and could hide from with ease. Our forests are dense with a lot of undergrowth.

[Swamp Man]

That's one advantage of using a scope. Once when hunting possum at night I saw this possum scrambling in the outer branches of a pine tree. I couldn't find it in my scope so I looked again and there it was. This happened about three times before I realized there was no possum there, just a bunch of brown pine leaves swaying in the wind. I still wonder about the guy shooting a blaze orange hood thinking he was looking at deer hair. Do you folks a problem with alcohol consumption on hunts? We had an 'accident' at a camp when this hunter shot his companion in the head at 100yds or so. He claimed he was 'cleaning' his gun when it went off. Never understood that one. I think I know what really happened, he was drunk and was aiming at his buddy who was taking a pee or something and forgot that his gun was loaded and pulled the trigger!

I was out in a forest with a guy with something blaze orange - a backpack maybe - and keeping track of him was a breeze. I on the other hand was wearing green and could hide from with ease. Our forests are dense with a lot of undergrowth.
Alcohol and firearms should never be mixed that's more dangerous then mixing alcohol and women. I stopped drinking many years back but never mixed alcohol and firearms. I did make the mistake of mixing alcohol and women. Until I realized every time I got into trouble or fights it was because of those two being mixed.

[44man]

It does not pay to hide from gun hunters! All they need to see is a deer without seeing you in the background.
303, I don't think those pictures are a true representation of what deer see. We still see the picture with our color cones.

[popper]

Don't know what happened to that link. If you can get to http://digitalcommons.unl.edu do the search for

A review of color vision in white-tailed deer. They actually figured it out Interesting that other articles state that red, green & blue lasers don't scare off the deer either.

We had an accident locally, 2 boys & 2 girls (HS age) were camping and dove hunting (yea right), drinking and 1 boy shot the other in the head with a rifle. This stuff souldn't happen.
you can count(because of the orange) twenty other hunters And you know they aren't deer.
Yes, twighlite and moving leaves look like something is there BUT positively identify your target.

[303carbine]

That's one advantage of using a scope. Once when hunting possum at night I saw this possum scrambling in the outer branches of a pine tree. I couldn't find it in my scope so I looked again and there it was. This happened about three times before I realized there was no possum there, just a bunch of brown pine leaves swaying in the wind. I still wonder about the guy shooting a blaze orange hood thinking he was looking at deer hair. Do you folks a problem with alcohol consumption on hunts? We had an 'accident' at a camp when this hunter shot his companion in the head at 100yds or so. He claimed he was 'cleaning' his gun when it went off. Never understood that one. I think I know what really happened, he was drunk and was aiming at his buddy who was taking a pee or something and forgot that his gun was loaded and pulled the trigger!

I was out in a forest with a guy with something blaze orange - a backpack maybe - and keeping track of him was a breeze. I on the other hand was wearing green and could hide from with ease. Our forests are dense with a lot of undergrowth.

Hi again Peter, I have a shooting buddy here on Vancouver Island , British Columbia, he was in New Zealand about twenty years ago. He said that the southern parts are very similar to our area here in BC. He said there is logging trucks and the dense brush looks like home.

[303Guy]

popper, I still can't find that paper.

I'm going by the study results which tell us that deer have two colour cones, one which has a peak sensitivity at 440 nanometres - blue-violet and the other at the green wavelength. So, they see blue very well, way better than we do. They don't see the color red as they have no red color cones in their eyes. However, the do see red with their rods and with their green cones. Like us they see cyan with their green and blue cones and their rods. They have more rods than we do as well as larger irises and reflective eyes so they see in the black and white more than we do. What the image actually looks like to them is anybodies guess. We see in the dark with our rods which do not register color just like deer but the with daylight, even low level light, we see only color yet there is a black and white component. So it's on the assumption that the brain sees color when the cones are activated. We should then consider that deer see blue in the dark since most night light is blue and UV rich. Incandescent lights that are reddish have less blue and I've made the observation that animals are not spooked by a torch when the batteries are getting low. Very bright and bluish lights seems to hurt their eyes as it makes them turn away.

The study done used implanted sensors to test the sensitivity at different wavelengths and those are the results I'm using. What I haven't been doing is adjusting the actual amount of color because I don't know the difference in color to black and white sensitivity so my interpretations are likely to be pretty inaccurate. Besides, they lack the acuity we have so really, only bright patches and movement will catch their eye.

So what I've been trying to do is determine how much blue is in our clothing as well in the environment. I cannot simulate the detail that they see because their brains do the image forming just like ours.

[303Guy]

I know for a fact that deer can't see red light as I've put my flashlight with a red filter on it directly on a deer in my backyard and it was totally oblivious to the light. They CAN see blue light. I found that out by replacing the red lens with the blue one I have and shining it on the same deer. It bolted the instant the blue light hit it.

This guy is saying no color blind animal can see red light. But they can see orange because that wavelength is detected by their green cones. Below a certain wavelength neither their rod or green cones have any sensitivity at all. So we can see deep red while they can't. Even red light in their range is going to be a dim green.


Anyone that says they cannot see the color red has never played with laser pointers and deer. they spook and run off without looking back.... ditto for hogs

What wavelength red laser was he using? The laser may be hurting their eyes. Deer don't normally spook from a light being shone in their eyes. I've shone a red laser into a possums eyes and it turned away pretty quickly but not straight away. Deer cannot see any light from about 650 nanometres up while we can.

An interesting aside from this guys article is using a red filter on a flashlight preserves our night vision.

Oh, apparently pink is a good cammo colour - deer aren't supposed to be able to see it. I don't believe that because pink is a composite color (it has no associated wavelength) and deer will see one of the make up colors, that being blue. It might not spook them though.

I still hear it said that deer see yellow but not according to the study done. They have a green cone not a yellow cone although the wavelengths are close. Deer peak green cone sensitivity is about the same as ours according to the study.

In another (possibly related) study it has been shown that pig will feed better if their food is made up with different colors. That's significant to pig farmers because they grow faster.

[303Guy]

Here is the link to an article written by Brian Murphy titled "What do Deer See?".

Do have a look at the article, it's very interesting.

Here are a few excerpts from that paper.


The Study
In August 1992, a group of leading deer researchers and vision scientists gathered at The University of Georgia (UGA) in Athens to conduct this landmark study. The group of researchers included Drs. R. Larry Marchinton and Karl V. Miller, and myself from UGA, Dr. Gerald H. Jacobs and Jess Degan from the University of California, and Dr. Jay Neitz from the Medical College of Wisconsin. This study was made possible due to a highly sophisticated computer system developed by Dr. Jacobs. This system is based on the principle that an electrical response is produced when light enters the eye. The computer interprets these responses and translates them into a “scientific best guess” of what deer can actually see.


Findings of the Study
The results of our study confirmed that deer possess two (rather than three as in humans) types of cones allowing limited color vision (Figure 1). The cone that deer lack is the “red” cone, or the one sensitive to long wavelength colors such as red and orange. This suggests that wearing bright colors while hunting does not affect hunting success. This does not mean that these colors are invisible to deer, but rather that they are perceived differently.


Deer are essentially red-green color blind like some humans. Their color vision is limited to the short (blue) and middle (green) wavelength colors. As a result, deer likely can distinguish blue from red, but not green from red, or orange from red. Deer are essentially red-green color blind like some humans. Their color vision is limited to the short (blue) and middle (green) wavelength colors. As a result, deer likely can distinguish blue from red, but not green from red, or orange from red. Therefore, it appears that hunters would be equally suited wearing green, red, or orange clothing but perhaps slightly disadvantaged wearing blue.


In fact, the actual color of the fabric is relatively unimportant as long as the pattern blends with your surroundings. Therefore, camouflage clothing is still recommended.

So, this representation of what deer sees is wrong (middle pic). Maybe not so much that it matters but it is showing no blue which could be significant in this instance. The third image is my idea of how they might see. The hunter is less well defined but actually shows up more due to the blue. Enough to matter? Prolly not.

8272382726

[truckjohn]

Maybe it makes sense that reds, oranges, yellows, and browns aren't really all that "Interesting" to deer (Even if they do "See" them)... because those colors typically don't indicate things that are suitable for them to eat.... so they just ignore them....

I think my "Camo" for this year will just be comfey flannel shirts... I won't worry too much about the Color - so long as it's not greens and browns..... Wear plenty of blaze orange and light brown pants.....

Thanks

[popper]

303guy - http://www.efg2.com/Lab/ lots of color info. I can't find the stuff I did on the old hard drive. It would give you the color response, setting color diagram and eye response. If I find it I'll send it.

[10x]

Interesting thread.
I have hunted both Mule Deer and Whitetail deer. I have found that both spook when something white moves. They do see U.V. as white. Wash your cottons in any detergent that leaves a U.V. residue and deer will spook when they see it move.
Blaze orange (highly reflective) that does not move will not spook a deer, move it and the deer will look at it. I have seen deer spook at fluorescent green and fluorescent orange surveyors ribbon tied to stakes on seismic lines. After a week they don't care and will feed beside the fluttering ribbons.
Mule deer and Whitetail have much different tolerances to movement. Whitetail bucks are extremely skittish and will spook at any sound, or movement. Mule deer will stare, do a short run, then stare.

If the color reflects light, (is bright) and it moves it catches the eye of the deer and usually the deer will spook and run.
Nylon and synthetics are are really good at reflecting light. Cotton if washed in a detergent that leaves a U.V residue that shows up under U.V. light will spook deer.


Over the past 30 years I have had the good fortune to watch several thousand deer of both species. Alberta hunting laws do not require any dress code for hunters.
I have found that wool or fleece in earth tones or camo bothers deer the least. A blue nylon or blaze orange jacket, or white nylon Tilley hat will spook and move deer away if it is moving. It seems that a moving white (reflective) patch is an alarm to deer.

[44man]

It is the spectrum of the reflection that wll scare them. Most lean towards the ultra violet range.
I have walked right along with deer wearing white or blaze orange. They never look at me.
Might be the man made fibers with something in them.
Clothing makers use all kinds of stuff because they want you to buy what looks nice to the buyer.
10X, good point. We don't know what is in cloth and I suppose some blaze orange might be wrong but my old coat can let me dance with deer.
Beware of detergents that say brighter whites and colors, it is towards the blue that makes them that way. Do some fibers contain brighteners? Do camo makers care?

[AABEN]

http://www.buckmasters.com/are-deer-completely-color-blind.aspx

THANKS that was very good to know.