Which 45-70 Rifle [Archive]

loadedbutbroke

09-03-2013, 09:56 AM

From UK

I have a spare slot on my license for a 45/70 rifle and so am just beginning to look for a suitable gun.

I will be shooting black powder and lead at paper. My favorite ranges are actually 200- 600 yrds although I have been known to go out to 1000.

Cost is an issue so it is probably going to have to be a secondhand re-pro but which one? High wall, low wall, trapdoor, Sharps, rolling block....... I have no experience of any of them or way of comparing them.
Is there a lever gun alternative?

I do have a 2 band Snider which I load to 70grn black powder (Ouch) which is pretty accurate at short range, so I do know a bit about reloading black powder cartridges.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

Adrian

725

09-03-2013, 10:37 AM

Well, your wish list includes some very nice guns and I'm sure before too long fans of each one will pipe in and voice their thoughts as to why their choice is best. Thing is, none of them will be wrong. I like the H&R Buffalo Classic in .45-70. Very accurate, built like a tank, and a natural for black powder loads. A tang sight added would put it into the 600 yard performance envelope. If cost is a factor, this is your best bet. See ------------ I told you fans of a particular gun will tell you why their choice is best! Lots of ways to skin a cat. Good luck.

CPL Lou

09-03-2013, 11:22 AM

+1 for the Buffalo Classic !
Mine regularly shoots sub MOA groups out to 200 yards.
I haven't tried any black powder loads yet, but intend to in the near future.

CPL Lou

country gent

09-03-2013, 11:24 AM

Ive had rolling blocks and Sharps and a Hepburn now added. The rolling blocks are a great rifle a lot of history behind them are available used and as reproductions. he drawback is the trigger unless you want to spend big money reworking to double set triggers pull is going to be on the heavy side. The sharps are available from high grade custom to reproductions They have alot of options available on/for them. I have an original navey arms rolling block I bought in the late 70s early 80s for around $125.00 and its been a great shooter, Im currently rebarreling it to 38-55. New stock foreend greenmountain barrel. Next up is a Pendersolis Sharps very good accurate rifle came with mid range ladder and front globe sights set triggers and ecent wood finish. Its 45-70 and shoots great with just about anything I feed it from paper patched to grease grooves. C Sharps arms Shiloh sharps also make these rifles in a "high Grade" version built to what you want. Fancy wood pewter tips sights triggers finishes barrel lengths. They are beautiful examples of the custom firearms craftsman ship. There are other s out there alos a good used gun isnt an issue as long as you can check it out first and be sure what your buying. The High walls are great shooters and again come pretty much set up for any game available. The big thing is what appeals to your eye and taste, what feels right in your hands to you. Be carefull these big Black powder rifles are addictive as all get out. Ive shot my first 2 shillouette matches this summer with the Hepburn and had a ball. Also keep in mind accessories ( blow tubes, loading helpers, wiping rods cases) are all extra. Molds loading equipment cases and such are also more expensive. You go thru lead at a much higher rate when the bullets are 500 Grains+. Powder at 70 grns to the case dosnt last long either. But they are a real enjoyment to make work and rewarding when you get there. I would stop at any shops that carry such in the area handle all you can see what feels right and fits. Look over the internet sites and see whats available there. Check the varies sites Pendersoli, C Sharps, Shiloh, Uberti, and anyothers you can think of. Look at all of them and see what you like.

Dale in Louisiana

09-03-2013, 11:37 AM

Trapdoor. The ORIGINAL .45-70.

dale in Louisiana

rr2241tx

09-03-2013, 12:05 PM

Not at all familiar with firearms prices in the UK but would believe that a new gun from Pedersoli would be less difficult to obtain than a used rifle from the States. If they are available in the UK, Browning BPCR model 45-70s are very nice and will do nicely in competition. HENRY KRANK & CO.LTD in West Yorkshire is the UK distributor for Pedersoli. Their High Wall Sporting with either a 30 or 32 inch barrel and single set trigger should be an excellent rifle.

EDG

09-03-2013, 01:16 PM

My preference is to pick
a. A gun that is not limited by action strength. This means Highwall, Ruger #1 or Sharps replica
b. A type sort of consistent with the cartridge. This means Highwall or Sharps. The Ruger #1 is more of an English style not consistent with the 45-70s history.
c. Weight - I like them heavy enough to dampen recoil with heavy bullets - Either Highwall or Sharps needs to weigh about 12 lbs if you plan on long heavy bullets to shoot long range.

You can shoot black powder in almost anything as long as you can get it apart to clean it well.
Smokeless is limited to the stronger actions if you desire some margin of safety
Light rifles will beat you up with recoil if you shoot them a lot with heavier - long range type loads.

Your best bet in the UK is probably a pistol grip long range Pedersoli Sharps with a shotgun butt plate.
If you can find a Highwall with pistol grip and shotgun butt you might be happier.
I find the Sharps a bit tedious to shoot.
eg cock the hammer to half cock, open the lever, remove the spent case, load, close the breech, hammer to full cock, pull the rear trigger until the front trigger sets, then fire with the front trigger. Note that the rear trigger pull might be 15 lbs and the front trigger might be 10 oz.

NSB

09-03-2013, 02:05 PM

I've owned three Pedersoli Sharps, two High Walls, and one Win 1886 lever gun. For long range shooting I don't think you'll do better than the Pedersoli pistol grip Sharps. All of my Pedersoli Sharps will do MOA with the right bullet and load. If you plan on doing extended shooting sessions the Sharps is best simply due to the added weight of the gun. The High Wall shoots as good but pounds the shooter too much. The lever gun is actually my favorite but not for long range shooting. The best it will do is about 1.5" at 100yds and it will beat you to death in short order. It only weighs seven pounds. I do like it for hunting and shooting very light loads for plinking/gong shooting.

Shooter6br

09-03-2013, 02:44 PM

80942 Expensive but a joy to shoot

M-Tecs

09-03-2013, 03:23 PM

What roll or fantasy are you trying to fill? The H&R Buffalo Classic in .45-70 is a good inexpensive (stateside) shooter but no historical mystique. High Walls are my preference but they came late or after the Buffalo hunts. Low Walls are not appropriate for 45/70. Trapdoors - our version of the Snider conversion. I am a big trapdoor fan but if I were a Brit a Trapdoor would hold no historical mystique for me. Sharps - tons of historical mystic even for a Brit. Rolling block same as the Sharps - tons of historical mystic - widely used throughout the world.

If I were a Brit I would be looking for a Farquharson based rifle.

For cost effectiveness a Pedersoli Sharps or Pedersoli High Wall would probably be the best bet in the UK.

725

09-03-2013, 11:22 PM

The OP wanted basic info on .45-70's as shooters and that cost was a factor. No role playing fantasy or historical mystique was mentioned.

Lead Fred

09-04-2013, 12:20 AM

+1 for the Buff classic, I bang the 550 gong all day long.

If I were ever going to get another single shot. I think Id go with a Ruger 1, or a trap door. Just for fun

hickstick_10

09-04-2013, 01:19 AM

Save your money, put change in a jar, collect bottles, turn in scrap metal, do odd jobs and whatever else it takes............

And get a decent falling block rifle.

StrawHat

09-04-2013, 07:09 AM

The Trapdoor is never a bad choice. An 1884 or later model with the Buffington rear sight would be a good fit for your target work.

Some reading for you,

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/

bigted

09-04-2013, 03:32 PM

im definitely in the '74' Sharps crowd. I have currently all the models of rifles mentioned with the exception of the trapdoor Springfield and ill be honest with you as for different shooting styles are concerned.

the Sharps will and IS my favorite rifle for just hammering away at the range. it is heavy and the action is super simple to both operate and disassemble when the need arises. they typically are very accurate with both GOOD open sights and at home equally with a vintage style scope mounted on them which adds some weight for the dampening of the recoil further. as for the time it takes to operate ... they are probably the most action oriented rifle in operation of them all ... however ... when it comes to target shooting ... the extra time for the operating is welcome to me as it furthers the chance of cooling the barrel and swabbing between shots. just a very pleasant rifle to shoot at the range.

the Winchester Hiwall model of 1885 is the very best for hunting in my humble opinion. they come lite in weight and are or can be very accurate. easy to handle and quick to shoulder when finding game to be shot at. very fast with the reloads as there is no re-cocking of the hammer involved ... simply shuck in another loaded case and close the action and bang away. the Japanese Hiwalls are very nice and super affordable but the action is a bit more complicated as it differs from the original Hiwall. they are compatible with both open sights as well as scopes and no problem getting them into action or carrying them all day in the brush what with the lite ...[8 or 9 lbs]... weight.

lever actions are way fun and cool in their own rite however there is a price to be paid with shooting these usually lite rifles ... they will beat ya up for 1 thing if any heavy hunting style loads are used ... then there is the loaded length ...[COAL]... having to remain at 2.550 inch so they will function thru the action and there be no hang-ups. for hunting they are the shis nits in both action and carrying. usually don't desire a scope on the lever however the Marlin does have this capability with the easy solid top on their receiver... not so with the Winchester '86' model with the open top action. they do recoil a bit for just hammering away at the target range.

I consider the rolling block to be in the same general area as the Sharps rifles. to me they are a general hoot to shoot and function very well with any load desired to load for them ...[new manufactured models that is]... original Remington's from yesteryear will not withstand the pressures of hotter loads that the Sharps nor the Winchesters will. however the heavy barreled rollers are the same in shoot ability as is the heavy Sharps. very conducive to both comfort and accuracy as well as nostalgia. a bit heavy for hunting and carrying and not so much favorable to scope mounting but a very good choice as well for hammering the dickens outta paper and steel animules.

my take and I didn't mention the trapdoors as I have no experience with them at all.

if history or nostalgia is of no consequents then the Ruger #1 should not be discounted as it will do all with a bit of recoil but a GREAT hunter that is VERY easy to mount a modern scope on and lite enough to carry all day long. very strong in the action and capable of any load that your shoulder is ready to withstand.

M-Tecs

09-04-2013, 04:16 PM

The OP wanted basic info on .45-70's as shooters and that cost was a factor. No role playing fantasy or historical mystique was mentioned.

The OP specifically asked about
From UK
Cost is an issue so it is probably going to have to be a secondhand re-pro but which one? High wall, low wall, trapdoor, Sharps, rolling block....... I have no experience of any of them or way of comparing them. Is there a lever gun alternative?

No mention of H&R Buffalo Classic's in the OP but since you are a mind reader you know that "High wall, low wall, trapdoor, Sharps, rolling block or a lever gun alternative" really meant an H&R Buffalo Classic. It may be exactly what the OP is looking for but since the OP specifically asked about types of guns used in the old west historical mystique MAY BE of interest to him. Is he looking for old west or something with British history or just a 45/70 to shoot Black Powder with? All valid issues to be thinking about when deciding what's the most suitable gun is for him.

The OP didn't state if his Snider-Enfield was a .577 Snider or a .577/450 conversation but he did state that 70 was (Ouch) out of an 8 1/2 pound rifle. I am not sure if the Brits converted Sniders to .577/450 but I see Khyber Pass knockoffs in .577/450 occasionally. The .577 Snider used a 450 grain bullet and 70 grains of Black.

The OP also stated his favorite ranges are actually 200- 600 yards although he has been known to go out to 1000. The H&R Buffalo Classics are great values and shoot very well but at 8 pounds they are on the light side for extended shooting with 1,000 yard loads of 500 to 550 grain bullets over 70 grains of Black. 12 pound plus rifles are much nicer to shoot at 600 &1,000.

All things for the OP to consider. Some of the information may be useful to the OP some may not be but that is for him to decide and not for you 725!!!!!!!!

CanoeRoller

09-04-2013, 10:20 PM

I own sharps, remingtons, and martini's.

The Remington has the advantage of being incredibly simple in design; not counting springs, there are perhaps four moving parts. If well made, it is very accurate, and more than strong enough to handle black powder loads. More than a million were built over the years, so an original action is rather inexpensive, and it can be modified by a decent gunsmith for less than the cost of a Shiloh Sharps, this is even more true if you have some skills that would allow you to do some of the work yourself.

A Sharps has a higher esthetic value, is mechanically stronger, and probably is more available in Great Britain. A Sharps can draw a crowd at a shooting range. There are far more options commercially available, making a Sharps a more practical choice.

Martini-Henrys can be re-barrelled into a 45-70 quite easily. And it was a superior design to either the Remington or the Sharps.

A High Wall is probably the best design for any of the external hammer firearms of the era. There are many replicas, and they have the advantage of being the strongest action from the late 1800's. Their lock time is close to that of the Martini, making them a favorite of target shooters.

My personal favorite is a Shiloh Sharps.

loadedbutbroke

09-06-2013, 07:42 AM

Hello everyone

Some great stuff to think about and thank you all for your comments. I am beginning to swing towards the High Walls or Rolling blocks.

Perhaps I should have given more information about my shooting and what I am trying to achieve.

I mainly shoot classic service rifle with a bent towards .303 Enfields. However recently I have been getting involved with black powder. My current favorite is a Parker Hale 2 Band ML in .58 caliber. Unbelievably accurate at short range. I do not hunt (virtually impossible in the UK unless you are a millionaire) but shoot targets usually prone and enter competitions at Bisley.

I am looking for something new and more challenging in the black-powder cartridge line for longer range target practice. I very much enjoy the casting and reloading and working the whole thing up. Definitely looking for something with some history behind it and QUALITY. I don't think I can afford an original hence the re-pro route.

However my Snider is an original:-
M-Tec

The OP didn't state if his Snider-Enfield was a .577 Snider or a .577/450 conversation but he did state that 70 was (Ouch) out of an 8 1/2 pound rifle. I am not sure if the Brits converted Sniders to .577/450 but I see Khyber Pass knockoffs in .577/450 occasionally. The .577 Snider used a 450 grain bullet and 70 grains of Black.

It is a 2 band 30" barreled rifled musket unusually converted in Belgium with a Poilvache action. It is .577 caliber but I shoot an over sized bullet at some .585/510grn. with 70 grns fine black-powder. The rifle weighs 8lbs 8ozs unloaded. Best shot prone as the recoil shooting seated is something else. At short range surprisingly accurate even with the standard Enfield sight. At longer range say 300yrds very prone to the wind. However I am working on it!

Here are some pictures.

81162

81163

There are currently very few rifles on offer secondhand over here and originals are like hens teeth to find hence the cost. I shall persevere! and look forward to any further thoughts people may have.

M-Tecs

09-06-2013, 10:40 PM

Nice rifle and pictures.

I have very little experience with rollers so I cannot add anything to what has already been said. Either a roller or High Wall will work very nicely for longer range targets. For that application don’t overlook the importance of really good sights and a nice trigger. Rifles that weight 12 pounds plus with shotgun type butts are much more enjoyable for long range targets.

Since you shoot Bisley you are probably aware of The Single Shot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Club of Great Britain http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/html/SubFrameSet.htm

Hanging out with these folks would give you a good opportunity to compare some different rifles. Some of the members have pictures of some very nice hardware in the guns and ammo section.

M-Tecs

09-06-2013, 11:10 PM

loadedbutbroke

09-07-2013, 07:05 AM

I just spend a little time on The Single Shot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Club of Great Britain web site http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/html/SubFrameSet.htm The Black Thunder newsletters are really well done. A lot of good info.

Thanks for this, I did not know they existed, hopefully just the type of club I have been looking for. I shall contact them.

Not had much luck on the rifle front; just missed a very well priced Sharps. Maybe this club might be able to help.

Adrian

loadedbutbroke

09-11-2013, 04:10 PM

I joined the club! This adds focus to my quest as the club rules state the rifle must be a western style (pre 1896), single shot above .38 caliber, black powder cartridge gun with an external hammer. I suppose in the spirit of the original sums it up. Replicas accepted.

Thank you all for your input there has been some really good stuff. You have swayed me one way then the other in terms of choice. At one time the Rolling block was my preference and I still do not rule it out, but I suppose it comes down to the Sharps, say the Silhouette model, or the Uberti 1885. Cost is a factor so my current feeling is to go for the Highwall. However I have tried to find some solid reviews for this rifle but they are all far too general so I was wondering if there is anybody out there who regularly shoots one who can give me the inside story.

One issue I have read above is that recoil can be a problem with the Highwalls? I will certainly be shooting 900 and 1,000 yrds possibly fairly regularly; what do you think?

Is the feel and the quality of the Uberti good, fit and finish etc. and of course the accuracy with Creedmore type sights?

Adrian

M-Tecs

09-11-2013, 09:56 PM

Uberti or Pedersoli 1885 info http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4609

Look at the post by DRCook. The reports that I have heard first hand is that Pedersoli barrels are better. I don’t own one but I do shoot with a couple of people that have Pedersoli 1885’s that shoot very well. If I hadn’t found a nice original to rebarrel I would have purchased a Pedersoli High Wall Classic 32''

The Pedersoli High Wall Classic 32'' weights 11.67 lbs so in a 45/70 is should be pleasant to shoot.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_177/rifles-high-wall-pedersoli-high-wall-classic-32.html

more info http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?107216-Pedersoli-High-Wall-opinions

loadedbutbroke

09-12-2013, 05:33 AM

Well M-Tecs you certainly have bowled me a googly now!

Look at the post by DRCook. The reports that I have heard first hand is that Pedersoli barrels are better. I don’t own one but I do shoot with a couple of people that have Pedersoli 1885’s that shoot very well. If I hadn't found a nice original to rebarrel I would have purchased a Pedersoli High Wall Classic 32''

I have read all you suggest and have to say it does put me off the Uberti a bit. The problem is the price of the Pedersoli version (£1,440 ) which from Henry Krank is £ 545 (approx $896) more expensive than the Uberti 1885. In fact it makes it more expensive than the Pedersoli Sharps Silhouette standard 32" barrel at £1,127. However I take your and DRCooks point about the barrel. According to Pedersoli there barrel is High carbon steel which presumably the Uberti isn't.

So quite a quandary, I might have to think again and drive up to Leeds ( Henry Kranks ) to at least get a look at some of these.

Hickstick_10 wrote:-

Save your money, put change in a jar, collect bottles, turn in scrap metal, do odd jobs and whatever else it takes............

And get a decent falling block rifle.

and this is what I might have to do, or risk divorce!

I will of course continue to look secondhand but the choice is very limited.

StrawHat

09-12-2013, 07:13 AM

I still like the Trapdoor Springfield but they may not be common in your area. For a look at what the 45-70 cartridge can do, give this a read.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

M-Tecs

09-12-2013, 07:51 AM

With that amount of price difference between Uberti or Pedersoli the Uberti becomes much more attractive. It may shoot to your satisfaction. Some factory barrels will shoot as well as the best customs barrels. Sometimes a guy gets lucky. If not you can have it rebarreled and still possibly be less money than the Pedesoli. My bet is that both use 4140 (High carbon steel) in the barrels. The accuracy or lack of it comes from the manufacturing process.

bigted

09-12-2013, 03:00 PM

first off I doubt that there are any makers of production rifles that do not make their barrels outta good smokless ready steel. the liability would be just too steep as there are fairly high intensity cartridges available from factory bought shells.

if the Uberti is 800 to 900 dollars cheaper then the Ped ... then you very well may have the wiggle room for experimenting and at the least get it rebarreled to a known good barrel in the worst case.

the other good thing is if you can get the sharps '74' in a 12 to 14 pound rifle at the cheaper price AND a pedrosoli... I would get to getting all over it. for target shooting I doubt that you could get any funner rifle. also these are very well made rifles and you get a premium barrel to boot.

sharpsguy

09-12-2013, 03:25 PM

Get the Pedersoli Sharps Silhouette model. I have one, and it is very accurate and has been absolutely reliable for over ten years. You will be WAY ahead of the game with the Pedersoli Sharps.

loadedbutbroke

09-12-2013, 04:18 PM

Get the Pedersoli Sharps Silhouette model. I have one, and it is very accurate and has been absolutely reliable for over ten years. You will be WAY ahead of the game with the Pedersoli Sharps.

I do not rule this rifle out. It is as I understand it a bit of a favorite over here, the problem is finding one. ( there is currently not a single example of this rifle or indeed a high wall advertised anywhere second hand.)

How do you find it at long range, up to 1000 yrds and possibly 1200? If you don't mind sharing it, any info you have on the boolit wight and style and the charge would be most welcome.

loaded

loadedbutbroke

09-12-2013, 04:41 PM

Hi everyone, you all make good pionts.
M_Tech

With that amount of price difference between Uberti or Pedersoli the Uberti becomes much more attractive. It may shoot to your satisfaction. Some factory barrels will shoot as well as the best customs barrels. Sometimes a guy gets lucky. If not you can have it rebarreled and still possibly be less money than the Pedesoli. My bet is that both use 4140 (High carbon steel) in the barrels. The accuracy or lack of it comes from the manufacturing process.
Big Ted

the other good thing is if you can get the sharps '74' in a 12 to 14 pound rifle at the cheaper price AND a pedrosoli... I would get to getting all over it. for target shooting I doubt that you could get any funner rifle. also these are very well made rifles and you get a premium barrel to boot.

Together with Sharpsguy you are beginning to persuade me that Pedersoli is probably the route to go, it is all going to depend on what I can find, possibly via the club.

sharpsguy

09-12-2013, 04:56 PM

I never shot the Pedersoli to 1200 yards, but 70 grains of 2f and a Lyman 457132 Postell worked very well at 1000. This is a compressed charge; I see no reason it would not work to 1200.

Dan Cash

09-12-2013, 07:05 PM

Save your money, put change in a jar, collect bottles, turn in scrap metal, do odd jobs and whatever else it takes............

And get a decent falling block rifle.

Best advice on the thread. Many of the fellows have given you superlative advice and I will second their opinions regarding Sharps, Highwall by Browning and Pedersolli, and the rolling blocks. The short coming of the rolling block has been well described but Linda Clendennen, one of the best women shooters in the U.S. (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) uses a Remington rolling block. It is not much to look at but she surely can shoot it. If you go for cheap and get one of the Buffalo Classic rifles, you will find that it can be painful to shoot as it is way light.

loadedbutbroke

09-13-2013, 09:30 AM

Hello all

I thought that, as this thread is starting to get quite long, it might be a bit of fun to tabulate the recommendations that you have all given to see where it all stands.

So, I have gone through everything again that people have written, including any attachments, and come up with the table below. This is a bit of a straw poll but I thought you might find it interesting.

The chart is based, not on every rifle referred to in the posts, including personal favourites or simply because they are mentioned, but on the rifle I believe you are recommending to me. Therefore, not all rifles are recorded and if you posted more than once for a particular gun then that only counts as one vote. I do hope I have not offended anybody by misinterpreting what they are actually recommending or by missing something or simply making a mistake. ( I did this in a hurry)

The categories along the top refer to the generic form of action and not to particular makes, repros or variations.

81700

So the Sharps appears to be the most frequent recommendation followed by the High Wall.

What was also interesting about the exercise was the number of other considerations that contributors mentioned that need to be taken into account which are not reflected in this simple chart.

The outstanding one for me is the weight of the rifle and here the Sharps seems to be easily the most recommended. The trigger pull is referred to by some and the rolling block does not do so well in that regard. Another aspect I find interesting is the height of the comb for long range shooting and the shape of the butt. I got the feeling that Uberti was not as well regarded as Pedersoli overall.

Here in the UK not all the rifles discussed are readily available, especially as originals, and if they are then the price is astronomic. (Although I understand rolling blocks can come up at auction for a reasonable price.) So I think it is going to have to be a repro and I think overwhelmingly the most refered to is Pedersoli from a quality point of view.

I have found this exercise very, very valuable and got a lot out of it, so much so that I am going to look for, a secondhand Sharps or possibly a Pedersoli High Wall for sensible money. I hope you have also found it a valuable exercise to see what others are thinking, right or wrong. And once again thank you all for taking the trouble to respond in such detail and good humor.

Adrian PS I have found a long range DP Sharps to go and see with long range sights Yippppe !

kokomokid

09-14-2013, 06:04 PM

Best gun for the money would be a browning high wall BPCR with 30" barrel that comes with decent sights. Will shoot 600yds with 60 grains ffg or 1000 with 70gr and tapered bullet. Next would be a c-sharps high wall. LB

loadedbutbroke

09-20-2013, 06:19 PM

Hello again

Well I looked at the Sharps (long range ), while it is a lovely gun it just did not quite do it for me. So I have decided to go for a DP John Bodine 34" Heavy barrel, Rolling block with a double set trigger, but here is a change, it is in 45/90. Hopefully I will be picking it up the coming week. However I will not get to shoot it until November at long range. Finance has been a big factor in my decision as this rifle in the UK is cheaper than many others and comes with long range sights.

Ahhhhhh I hear you cry after all that!!! Sorry I will keep you informed if of interest.

Adrian

bigted

09-20-2013, 08:01 PM

I am sure that your enjoyment will bound with the roller. do keep us informed of your journey as this is the thing we all share in common.

the 45-90 is a good round ... it has its drawbacks but what chamber doesn't? photo's are gonna to be expected ya know ...[smilie=s:

country gent

09-20-2013, 08:18 PM

I shoot a CSharps hepburn in 45-90 and the cartridge is great and versatile. For shilouettes I have a light load worked up and a full power load for when I want that extra. Mine is also a 34" barrel. Here are the 2 loads
Light load (pretty much duplicates a 45-70 in performance)
Starline case trimmed chamfered with vld angled tool, primer pockets uniformed
Rem 9 1/2 primer foil disc under primer
65 grns 2 f Goex powder
.06 Napa rubber fiber wad cut .465 dia
18 grns cream of wheat
Playing card wad
compressed .375 from case mouth
.187 grease cookie (emmerts improved lube)
playing card wad hand seated tight to cookie with a hand tool.
500 grn Bullet Paper patches with onion paper Hand seated to wad.
case sized around bullet to provide neck tension

Full power load ( better performence but heavier recoil also)
Starline case preped as above
rem 9 1/2 primer foild disc under primer
85 grns 2 f goex powder
napa ruber fiber wad .060
compressed .375 from case mouth
.187 grease cookie ( emmerts Improved lube)
playing card wad
500 grn bullet Paper patched with onion paper
Hand seated onto wad
case sized around bullet to provide tension
Both of these loads are perfoming for me very well. The full power load produces great accuray but also some heavier recoil. Cases are lasting and holding up very well.
My mold is a brooks adjustable Paper Patched I had made. I shoot bore riding bullets cast from 20-1 lead/tin alloy. The bullets drop from mold at .441 dia and the 2 wraps of 9# onion paper ( .002 thick) bring it to .449dia.

CanoeRoller

09-21-2013, 10:54 AM

The Rolling Block is a fine choice, as long as it is not too light. A 45-90 can be punishing to the shooter in lighter weights. My first BP rifle was a Remington Rolling Block in 45-70. It weighed a bit under 8 pounds, and would bring tears to my eyes after just a few rounds. It was accurate until I began to flinch.

It also tended to bring out other un-manish behavior in me aside from the tears, each shot would make me squeal like a school girl confronted by large spiders. I slowly learned that I needed a much heavier rifle. That settled me down quite a bit.

A roller is a fine choice, as is a Sharps.

Try to keep the weight of the rifle over 11 pounds (5 kilos) if possible. The heavier the rifle, the more comfortable it will be to fire over a long string of rounds, though it could be unpleasant to carry any distance

As you mentioned, only millionaires can hunt on the UK, if you happen to be a one, keep in mind in the old days a proper gentleman would never tote his own hunting gear.

loadedbutbroke

09-21-2013, 01:10 PM

Hi CanoeRoller

Try to keep the weight of the rifle over 11 pounds (5 kilos) if possible. The heavier the rifle, the more comfortable it will be to fire over a long string of rounds, though it could be unpleasant to carry any distance

Fortunately the rifle has a heavy 34" barrel and therefore weighs in at over 12 1/2lbs in old money(5.7Kilos). I am going to load 80 grns black powder to start behind a 500 or possibly 535 Postell cast boolit. So I am hoping that the recoil will be bearable. (my first shoot is going to be 4th November at 900 and 1,000 yrds) Do you think it will work?

Unfortunately I am not a millionaire hence my screen title, if you are volunteering to come and carry my kit you are most welcome?

Adrian

CanoeRoller

09-21-2013, 01:48 PM

I will be happy to tote your gear around for you, if you are willing to pay the airfare.

A 12.5 pound rifle ought to be controllable. 80 Grains of BP with a Postell is a very good start to a long range load. My best long range loads all use a Postell boolit of some sort.

You are now on the long and sometimes frustrating road of BP load development. This is a very Zen sport, some of us never stop on the journey toward a better group.

loadedbutbroke

09-21-2013, 07:23 PM

Hi CanoeRoller

I wish I was a gentleman and could afford the airfare, it looks like I am going to have to do it myself.

I have another problem. I did today buy a Lyman Mould secondhand no 57621. I thought this was a 500grn .45 bullet mould. I have run up a number of boolits in 1:20 ish lead. My scales go up to 510grn and these boolits are way over that. They measure .456 I have looked on the Lyman site but cannot find this particular mould. I have of course also goggled it but no luck.

Do you or any body else know what this mould actually is? The nearest I can see is 457132 which I thought was the Postell mould? ( the one I was looking for in the first place.)

Adrian

bigted

09-21-2013, 08:11 PM

the first thing I would do with a new to me rifle is to pound a slug down the barrel to find out what exactly the bore measures. then with this info on a sheet of paper I would shoot three rounds out of it and then take the fired cases and slightly flair the unsized/fireformed cases and measure the mouth of the case to discover what the chamber is like.

armed with this info next I would try a round loaded with the proper size boolit and set it out of the case enough to just kiss the rifling.

typically this is the first things I do to discover a starting place with a load/boolit. paperpatching is fun but if you get a greaser to hit your mark then the paperpatch endeavor will not allow you to begin to think that the darn rifle just wont shoot. not sayin that the patchers wont shoot ... as they will ... however they typically take a bit to develop into an accurate shooter.

ColColt

09-21-2013, 08:15 PM

If you have a 457132 you have the 535 gr Postell mould. Or, do you have this...http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?31470-Lyman-457621-mold-design

country gent

09-21-2013, 08:20 PM

The postell is around 535 grns post a pic of one if possible. My postell mold is 457132. Its a good shooting bullet another is 457125. I have found 457125 to be very good in a wide range of rifles. My 45132 shoots very good in alot of diffrent rifles but it has also been converted to nose pour. Measure them up as to dia length and see how it fits your rifle.

CanoeRoller

09-21-2013, 09:52 PM

There is a lyman 457671 that weighs about 500 grains. It requires a gas check. Is the back end of the boolit smaller than the last ring, or is it the last ring itself?

The best long range Lyman moulds would for most folks be the 457132 (postell), and the 457125 (government , almost). If you found a 457126 or a 457121, they would work reasonably well in that 45-90, though they would reduce your powder capacity.

loadedbutbroke

09-22-2013, 06:17 AM

Hi CanoeRoller et al

There is a Lyman 457671 that weighs about 500 grains. It requires a gas check. Is the back end of the boolit smaller than the last ring, or is it the last ring itself?

I don't think this bullet is for a gas check. I have cut a poor one in half and weighed it all at 528grn approx. Length 1.374 the base is .456 in diameter the driving bands .452. It has a fat rear end like me. See pictures below:-

82441 82442 82443

I missed the 4 in front of the code yesterday however you can see it in the above picture. The nearest I could see on the Lyman site is the Postell ?

I hope this mould is throwing a bullet suitable for long range. Should I be sizing it for 45/90?

Adrian PS I still haven't got the rifle which I hope to be picking up on Wednesday

texassako

09-22-2013, 09:14 AM

I think that is one of the Parker Hale designs for Whitworth rifles. Try it and see. My Pedersoli Sharps liked another PH design, the 457121PH, in my first load tests.

CanoeRoller

09-22-2013, 10:24 AM

That has good design for long range, it looks a bit heavier on the nose than the Lyman Postell though. It could be an older mold, the original Postells were more blunt than the current molds from Lyman.
If it matches the diameter of your barrel, that should be a very accurate round.

ColColt

09-22-2013, 11:28 AM

It sure looks a lot like the 457125 to me except the Lyman is 1.325" long. I got curious and found a little lmore about that bullet. It's no Lyman as I thought. See the first picture. It appears to be the one specified in post #48.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1245756810

loadedbutbroke

09-22-2013, 11:59 AM

Hi Cololt I only had time for quick look at the link you sent me and the picture certainly looks like the mould I have.

Interesting but my mould is certainly stamped as a Lyman?

Did they make a range for Parker Hale at some time?

I shall load some and see if they shoot but not until November I am afraid. In the meantime I have a 457132 secondhand coming which I am going to try.

Why is life never straightforward,

Adrian

ColColt

09-22-2013, 12:05 PM

There's a little info about that in the text of that link....

" I thought it may have been as my rifle although second hand had a lot of equipment with it which included amongst other things the Lyman mould pictured below which is marked 457621, a number thank no longer appears in their catalogue, I wonder if it was an item that was made specifically for PH and the Whitworth rifle under this number/specification? "

loadedbutbroke

10-01-2013, 09:45 AM

hello all

I managed to obtain the correct 353 grn Postell mould and have made up 50 rounds which I will be shooting on the 2nd November long range. Interestingly I had to compress the powder quite heavily to get 80grn into the 45/90 case. Also I had to set the boolit quite far in otherwise it will not chamber in the rolling block easily.

I will let you know how I get on.

I shall be away from tomorrow until 30th October.

Once again thank you all for taking the time to write and for your excellent responses.

Regards
Adrian

Don McDowell

10-01-2013, 10:00 AM

Hi CanoeRoller et al

I don't think this bullet is for a gas check. I have cut a poor one in half and weighed it all at 528grn approx. Length 1.374 the base is .456 in diameter the driving bands .452. It has a fat rear end like me. See pictures below:-

82441 82442 82443

I missed the 4 in front of the code yesterday however you can see it in the above picture. The nearest I could see on the Lyman site is the Postell ?

I hope this mould is throwing a bullet suitable for long range. Should I be sizing it for 45/90?

Adrian PS I still haven't got the rifle which I hope to be picking up on Wednesday

The bullet in that picture is the original Postel. That nose shape is most often referred to as the "creedmoor" these days.

montana_charlie

10-01-2013, 11:54 AM

Images from the Brooks Moulds website.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/new_postal_bullet3_zps5cc0e7e2.jpg

Don McDowell

10-01-2013, 09:02 PM

Original postel on the left, Brooks version on the right.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/Postel_zps93285111.jpg

montana_charlie

10-01-2013, 09:46 PM

Original Postel and Creedmoor.
Noticeable difference in shape and nose length.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/OrigPostelandCreedmoor_zps37d1de11.jpg

Don McDowell

10-01-2013, 10:10 PM

Do you have a picture of a real PJ creedmoor? those computer generated animations don't always resemble the real thing..
And keep in mind the original postel is also the original "creedmoor"

montana_charlie

10-02-2013, 12:43 PM

Do you have a picture of a real PJ creedmoor? those computer generated animations don't always resemble the real thing..
And keep in mind the original postel is also the original "creedmoor"
That IS a real Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet.
It (and some others) has a non-reflecting coating to make clearer photos.
Wanna know where I found it? ... http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Dan_Theodore_Magic-Bullets_3G-45-90.htm

CM

Don McDowell

10-02-2013, 02:02 PM

No that picture you posted actually look more like the PJ postell bullet....

montana_charlie

10-02-2013, 07:09 PM

No that picture you posted actually look more like the PJ postell bullet....
Click on the link, scroll down to the picture of three bullets, read the names below them.
I can't push the buttons for you ...

CM

Don McDowell

10-02-2013, 10:50 PM

You mean you don't actually have one to show us ?

montana_charlie

10-03-2013, 12:04 PM

Nope.
I have a mould for that design but I haven't used it for a long time ... and no bullets left.
You'll just have to take Dan Theodore's word that it's a real PJ Creedmoor bullet.

CM

Don McDowell

10-03-2013, 12:51 PM

Oh I'll take Dan's word on most things, pretty knowledgeable fella and a lot of fun to visit with.
I was just thinking you maybe had the first hand experience to back up your statements....

Kenny Wasserburger

10-03-2013, 01:28 PM

Bit late too this thread but noticed you mentioned getting the John Bodine roller in 45-90. A few years back I had the chance too shoot one of these at one of my Creedmoor matches. Kenny Durham of ID brought his Pedersoli Bodine that Dick Trenk had shipped to him. It had the double set triggers. We shot a good bit at 840 yards on Marstin my Roo target, this rifle with Jones Creedmoor bullet was one of the most accurate BPCRs I have ever shot. Was most impressed with the accuracy.

While Rollers are not my thing, It is a fine rifle, my only dislike is the drop the roller has in the stock, as they all do.

KW
The Lunger

montana_charlie

10-03-2013, 02:36 PM

Oh I'll take Dan's word on most things, pretty knowledgeable fella and a lot of fun to visit with.
I was just thinking you maybe had the first hand experience to back up your statements....
Which statement would that be, exactly?
I've just been having fun watching you trying to back up this one ...

The bullet in that picture is the original Postel. That nose shape is most often referred to as the "creedmoor" these days.

CM

Kenny Wasserburger

10-03-2013, 03:38 PM

The best example of the Original Postel Bullet: comes from NEI handtools Ideal Postell Copy. They cast oversize .462 I am thinking of revisting this great old bullet as it was hell on wheels at the Ram line in a 45-70 (about 525 grs) and did very well in my 45-110 many a year ago. I have one in a brand new mould I bought from a friend about 5 years ago to have a spare, the original Mould I bought and had Mt Baldy and Ivor Danielson cast them for me many a year ago. Then we used 20-1, I am thinking 16-1 or 11-1 would of been a better choice.

I sized mine too .458 for my Shilohs back in the day.

KW

Don McDowell

10-03-2013, 04:12 PM

There are some of those original postel blocks showing up from time to time now. It was and still is a good bullet, altho the more aerodynamic "money" bullet(gibbs, metford, prolate,, what ever) style surely uses less elevation. When shooting the money patched in my 44 my 1000 yd setting hovers around 150-160 points, but the postel nose takes closer to 170.

Kenny Wasserburger

10-03-2013, 05:09 PM

And Don that's the Telling part, aint it.[smilie=p: That ole Paper don't lie. And BTW it was dang Dang Grand to see you and your missus at Raton! Wyoming put a darn good showing at BPTR Nationals. I think we had 7 of the 48 shooters in Creedmoor. I never would of dreamed of that in 1997 when I shot the first offical Creedmoor Nationals.
Kenny W
The Lunger

Don McDowell

10-03-2013, 05:50 PM

Ol Wyo, had 8 of the 48 entries:redneck: Yes it was a grand time down there, and I really appreciated your input as we progressed thru that creedmoor match, those were some tough conditions, and the learning curve was steep but one heck of a lot of fun. Can't wait to get back and try it again. Have already started with the load testing for next year. And just as you said, that paper don't lie.
One thing the OP here being from England and all, and manages to come up with that original postel mould block, sure makes you wonder what was the story behind that, and what English rifleman first brought those blocks in and did it compete at Dollymount and Wimbleton.

loadedbutbroke

10-12-2013, 12:17 PM

From France

Hi Guys, I am away for the moment and am very much looking forward to my first shoot with the rolling block come 2nd November at Bisley 900/1000 yrds.

I have been having quite a lot of problems with internet connections here in France so have missed a lot of the posts which I have only just read this afternoon. Quite a lot of discussion about that mould. I will try it out time after this.

The loading of the 45/90 has proved to be a little more difficult than I was expecting especially the bit where I had to compress the powder. I eventually made up a tool which consists of a bit of dowel which fits the case, a cut down case and a vice.

80 grn of FO Triangle used.

I hope that I have got the lead hard enough and used enough lube which I had to apply by hand. I used a stick of Alox. The mould is in the end the 535 grn Postel.

I shall let you know how I got on come November. I am encouraged by the comments on the rolling block (Kenny Wasserburger ). My only slight quibble is that you have to pull the hammer back further than normal to load the longer 45/90 round.

bigted

10-12-2013, 02:36 PM

that sir is the best in innovation ive seen for quite a time. a VICE no less. thanks for sharing this bit the question begs asking ... why cant you use your loading press to compress the powder? maybe you already addressed this question but I aint gonna go back thru all the posts to find out ... [smilie=l:

loadedbutbroke

10-12-2013, 04:50 PM

Hi bigted

Yes, I did try compressing with the press using the neck expanding die. I had two problems.

First was the sheer amount of pressure required to compress the powder. I have a Lee O press.

Second compressing far enough to allow the bullet to seat without it also compressing the powder. (I did compress the powder a couple of times with the bullet but found that the bullet itself distorted quite badly). i.e how do you gauge how far to compress the powder and wad using the press.

So my solution (and I would not claim to be an expert) was the piece of kit you see and if you look carefully at the picture you will see a line around the dowel rod. This is my depth indicator and is very accurate as you can wind the vice in precisely to this line.

Now I was worried that I might leave an air gap behind the bullet but by careful measuring I recon that the bullet should seat perfectly onto the wad without compression.

You will probably scream, but I am using a low density plastic wad, which seems to hold the whole thing together well before you seat the bullet. So I believe that the boolit its self is not put under any undue pressure.

84080

The soft jawed vice winds the whole thing together easily and I recon I can achieve good consistency between rounds. But what if the case grows for the next firing?

We will see as of course I haven't shot the b----y thing yet aghhhhhh.

But as I say I will on the 2nd Nov.

Wish me luck
Adrian

Supplementary notes

I was surprised that I needed to compress the powder at all give that this is a 45/90 case

What happens if I put 90 grns in ?

Is this all normal for this type of cartridge?

Please remember i am new to this black powder cartridge game and so appreciate any advice cousins have.

bigted

10-13-2013, 02:25 AM

so how much powder ... [weighed] ... are you trying to compress?

what kind of powder?

how much is the total compression of the powder charge in inch's?

is your case a 2.4 inch case in length?

are you weighing your powder or using a volume measure?

the powder should not need that much compression if all is correct. the lee press should be able to compress it the needed amount to seat your boolit. I don't have direct experience with the 45 2.4 inch case but I can and do compress 70 grains on a regular basis in a Winchester 45 2.1 case. my 45 3.250 cases can hold 135 grains very easily with the 540 grain boolits. so again I say that it would be something pretty simple that is haywire with your system to have need of ...[admittedly very innovative]... your vise to compress enough.

loadedbutbroke

10-13-2013, 04:41 AM

Hi bigted

I am afraid as I am away at the moment I havn't got my information with me. However from memory

so how much powder ... [weighed] ... are you trying to compress?
80grn but may need to go higher say 85 or even 90

what kind of powder?

The powder is FO triangle ( which may not be available in the states) which is medium/fine

how much is the total compression of the powder charge in inch's?

Difficult to say about 1/4 to 3/8"

is your case a 2.4 inch case in length?

Brand new Starline for 45/90

are you weighing your powder or using a volume measure?

Weighing the powder with Ohaus scales and a trickler to get it dead right

the powder should not need that much compression if all is correct. the lee press should be able to compress it the needed amount to seat your boolit. I don't have direct experience with the 45 2.4 inch case but I can and do compress 70 grains on a regular basis in a Winchester 45 2.1 case. my 45 3.250 cases can hold 135 grains very easily with the 540 grain boolits. so again I say that it would be something pretty simple that is haywire with your system to have need of ...[admittedly very innovative]... your vise to compress enough.

I cant really comment on this but I know all the guys in the club do compress there powder some putting 85 grn into 45/70. They mostly use Swiss powder FFg I think which may be finer and easier to compress. When I can afford it I may try this powder.

What I don't have is a compression die so I had been trying the neck expanding die lowered. But it feels to be under too much strain and there is no way of seeing how far you have gone other than trial and error.
The big advantage of my dowel and vice technique is speed and accuracy of depth compressed.

Basically I prepare the cases,prime, fill the powder, put in the small plastic wad then start the compression with the press, this gives me a start and squares up the wad. I run all the rounds through this procedure and then use the tool and vice to do the compression one after the other. Then I seat all the boolits. Voila

bigted

10-13-2013, 01:15 PM

to compress 1/4 or 3/8ths inch in a 2.4 inch case should be an easy task in your Lee press. I think that something else is going on that makes the process difficult. such as maybe your neck expanding die is trying to expand your cases as you try to compress the powder at the same time. in lou of a proper compression stem I think id take the Lee neck expanding die apart and grind/machine off the flair portion so the whole stem fits down the case far enough to just do the compression job. I have never heard of any black powder called "FO Triangle" powder but then I have not heard of all things yet ... [smilie=l:

your compression of good blackpowder is not going to be hard to achieve and your Lee press should have all the power needed to accomplish this task.

just shooting in the dark as your powder is un-known to me and I mean no disrespect asking this but ... is your powder a blackpowder or considered smokeless powder or an aftermarket blackpowder? I know that any of my smokeless powders hate to be compressed at all and they resist the compression ... unlike my blackpowder loads compress very nicely and unless I try for some over 1/2 inch ... it compresses very easily.

just trying to help and mean no dis-respect with any question. also I would like to ensure that your loading blackpowder and not smokless because of the safety concerns.

loadedbutbroke

10-13-2013, 01:36 PM

Hi bigted

FO is definitely straight black powder. I have used it many times in .44 revolver. .45 patch and ball rifle, .58 2 band Enfield and .577 Snider. It seems to me good in all. However I am told it is not as refined as the Swiss which my colleges all use. It certainly is not smokeless as it has to be entered on my black powder licence.

I don't think it is available in the States.

I have measured the depth of my neck expanding die and in theory it is long enough to compress the loads without any other obstruction. The problem is the amount of pressure needed (elbow) to achieve the required depth. It just feel too much like everything is straining. The vice just winds up a treat with no stain and is accurate to boot.

I have loaded 50 using my method and once underway was relatively easy. It will be interesting to see what the reloading is like when the cases have been fire formed.

Got to go before divorce ensues

Adrian

BAGTIC

10-14-2013, 01:26 PM

Regardless of which gun it is important to decide in advance why category loads you are interested in shooting, original factory level loads or modern +P loads. If you even think about +P loads don't even think about skimping on the gun weight. Also don't be influenced by how traditional it looks, get a gun with a practical recoil absorbing stock and butt plate.

loadedbutbroke

11-07-2013, 08:48 AM

Hi Bagtic

I have already bought a Pedersoli Rolling block with a heavy 34" barrel,overall wight 13-14lbs. This will only shoot black powder as it is in the 45/90 caliber. I have so far only had the opportunity to shoot it once at 900 yrds and the recoil was quite acceptable especially as it has a wide butt plate unlike other 45/70/90 guns I considered. However I made a mistake in my choice of powder

bigtedwrote

I have never heard of any black powder called "FO Triangle" powder but then I have not heard of all things yet ...

Well he was right to be suspicious as while FO triangle is black powder I have discovered that it is no where near as powerful as the Swiss and so when I shot at 900yrds they struggled to even reach the target. I checked with the importer (triangle is German) who reported that the powder is used principally by re-enactors and as a blasting powder!

So I now have some Swiss # 3 which is 2FG and am looking for loads for the 45/90 for long range. I was thinking of starting with 80grn compressed. The boolit is 530grn Postell Bore.45 on the lands and .48/9 in the grooves.

(one oddity of the Rolling block in this caliber is that the anvil of the hammer fouls the brass case/rim on loading if you set the boolit out too far. Therefore overall length cannot exceed 3.245" even if you pull the hammer back a little further).

Adrian

loadedbutbroke

11-28-2013, 04:11 PM

OK I have zeroed the rifle at 100yrds and it appears to be pretty accurate at that range with say 87 to 92 grns compressed Swiss No 3.

I have looked at various sites to get an idea of the lift from 100 to 900 or 1000yrds. For this round .45-90 I am finding it difficult to get a definitive answer. As best I can ascertain it should be about 125 moa or 25 divisions on the Pedersoli long range sight. I do not have a ballistic coefficient for the 530/5 grn Postell bullet. Lyman mould, nor can I find one. I cannot understand the table which came with the sights. It seems to be plain wrong.

If contributors can confirm I am in the right area it would help. I am on 900/1000 on Saturday and don't want to embarrass myself again!

I have loaded at 88 grns to keep the recoil down a little.

Adrian

CanoeRoller

11-28-2013, 07:32 PM

The lyman Postel has a BP of .402.

Loaded down to 88 grains? I have become such a pansy. I am seeking ways to load my 45-70 down below 62 grains and keep accuracy.

Some men here say they do not feel recoil, but I do, that is why I:

1) do not box with anyone capable of striking me
2) stay north of north bound horses and mules
3) do not shoot calibers larger than 45-70

Don McDowell

11-28-2013, 11:28 PM

Loadedbutbroke, I would suggest you add about 17 minutes elevation for each 100 yds past your basic 100 yd setting on the sight. So say 119 points/moa above your 100 yd zero,should get you close for the 900 yd target.

loadedbutbroke

11-29-2013, 09:23 AM

Hi Don McDowell/CanoeRoller

I ran as best I could (now having a ballistic coefficient your ideas through the Hornaday Ballistics Calculator which came up with 146 - 160 moa depending on the velocity. Of course it is that I do not know as I do not have a chronograph. I used 1200fps and 1300 fps as a guess.

I make 17 moa for every 100yrds past 100 153moa which kind of puts it smack in the middle at 1000yrds!

Part of the reason for downloading a bit is the cost of the powder £56 a Kilo here in the UK ($ 91.28 ).

Now if you want recoil you need to try my 2 band Snider Enfield 70 grns behind 526grn minie is really sharp. Of course the rifle is a lot lighter

8895288953

Thanks for your help, I will let you know how I get on.

Adrian

loadedbutbroke

12-05-2013, 04:58 PM

Bisley Stickeldown Saturday 30th Nov UK

900 yards was a bit of a disaster but at least I found out why. The supplied sight which claims to be long range is in fact not long range with insufficient elevation to get you on at 900yrds. However we worked out the problem and by aiming well high to the right I finally got on target I even got 2 bulls and a further 5 on the target in succession. Conditions were quite bad with an uneven head wind and variable light, cold.

At lunchtime I rushed into Fulton's of Bisley who fortunately had a Pedersoli Soule long range sight secondhand so I snapped it up and fitted it in the back of the car. To the rifle that is

1,000 yards was difficult because of course I did not have a proper Zero anywhere. So I guessed 100 yards by comparing the two sights and moved the new sight up 200 moa. After a few ranging shots I got on target and did not miss for the next 15. A few blacks but the wind was very tricky and so I kept getting pushed out to the left no matter how much I put on right. Even colder and the light was terrible by 3.30 pm. I was not the only shooter having these problems.

The Rolling block is a lovely piece of kit but it does have a couple of quirks. The 45/90 round can not be chambered if it is too long as it fouls the Hammer. Pulling this back each time to load is a bit of a ***. You have to be careful when shutting the chamber as the hammer is on full cock (you cannot open the chamber unless it is) only a brush on the front trigger will set her off before you are ready unlike an Enfield where you can shut the chamber on safety and then go to full cock when ready. The moral is to make shutting the chamber the very last thing you do before setting the trigger.

89630
As you can see the Soule diopter sight is about an inch up from the highest point of the original sight. It also has considerably more windage. You can not see well in the picture but the sights are about even for 100yrds.

Anyway I seem to be underway now with this rifle and load 88grn Swiss # 3. The recoil certainly is survivable and the round has plenty of legs for 1,000yrds (but what about 1,100/1,200 I hear you cry).
Comments most welcome as I am still learning about these big boys and I am sure am still making many mistakes.

loadedbutbroke

01-24-2014, 07:05 AM

Bisley 11th January 2014

Last year bigted wrote

I am sure that your enjoyment will bound with the roller. do keep us informed of your journey as this is the thing we all share in common.

the 45-90 is a good round ... it has its drawbacks but what chamber doesn't? photo's are gonna to be expected ya know ...[smilie=s:

Well here they are

94409

This is Stickeldown at 900 yards. You can see the safety area over to the left it extends for some miles and backs onto the military ranges at Pirbright. The day was cold but bright with the wind blowing from left to right deceptively strong and veering round to head on every now and again which played havoc with the elevation. I did not do well at 900 as my position was very poor with my makeshift wrist rest. I did better at 1,000 using sticks. I prefer 1,000 as the firing point is higher relative to the target.

94410

This picture shows the rolling block better, please ignore the fat old fart about to put a patch through. Even though the rifle has what I believe is called a shotgun style butt it still needs a device to raise the comb for this range, I cant find one on the sites; any ideas?

Hope this is still of interest.

Happy New Year

Adrian

CanoeRoller

01-25-2014, 07:28 PM

loadedbutbroke

02-11-2014, 06:00 PM

If you have a leather worker in the area, or a buddy who works leather in the area, he/she could build up a leather comb you could tie to the butt. I don't shoot really long range any more (no place near here to do it) But I used to rest my rifle across solid shooting sticks and used my hand to raise the comb. Not the best method, but it was probably authentic to the time these rifles ruled the ranges.
Glad to see you are out enjoying the smoke and delay of gratification that is shooting these old loads.

Hi CanoeRoller I have contacted CheeknStock in the good old USofA and think I will be placing an order with them in the near future.

My last effort on Stickledown this Saturday past was something else! Gale force wind (exceptionally strong) and after two shots heavy rain and hail. I managed to get off a dozen rounds or so and hit the target a number of times at 900 yrds although enjoying it might be a bit of an exaggeration.

At the end there was a 1/8" of water on the mat and needless to say everything was completely soaked. I gave up when I could no longer see through the spotting scope or the sights which kept getting blurred.

So I had to strip the rolling block down to dry it off. It seems to me to be a simple action but getting the front trigger to work correctly again was not easy. It did not help that the diagrams in the Pedersoli manual differs from my rifle.

On the upside I bought a Pro shot flexible poly cleaning rod for black powder which worked very well.

Adrian

loadedbutbroke

03-30-2014, 05:33 AM

Post Script
I hesitated to write this post in case it may upset all the Rolling Block fans out-there. But things have moved on and I am afraid so has the Roller which I have exchanged for a 32" Sharps Silhouette. What a difference; I just could not get comfortable with the heavy barrelled John Bodine and there are features I was not happy with which I mentioned in an earlier post.

I shot the Sharps for the first time yesterday and was very impressed with the result coming half way up the table in a local Silhouette shoot. It is in 45-70 and I used 60grns of Swiss No 4 behind the 530 grn Postell boolit; very little compression required as I set the boolit out away. The recoil was quite acceptable and there was plenty of power for 500yrds. The rifle was also grouping well.

I am thinking of 76grns for the long range 900/1,000 and if that works well the same for the Billy Dixon shoot 1,100/1,200yrds. My only concern is getting it all in the case. I have tried using a drop tube to load the powder but find I can get an equally good result by swirling the powder in the funnel as it goes into the case. (pre compressing). I find this is much quicker than using the tube; is there any reason I should not use this technique?

I am much more comfortable and happier with the sharps but of course this is a personal thing, another shooter could equally well prefer the Rolling Block.

Adrian

loadedbutbroke

03-30-2014, 06:15 AM