Is making longer 45 ACP Shot shells out of rifle brass safe?

[jh45gun]

Just wondering a guy I know is making long 45 ACP shells out of rifle brass to make shot shell loads. They are extending into the rifling a bit. I have two concerns about this first of all since the 45 acp head spaces on the mouth this would be off and pressure concerns with the brass extending into the rifling. The rifle cases are necked down to make a neck to minic the bullet then is capped with a disc to hold the shot in. What do you all say.

[BCRider]

It's an interesting idea. Not one I'd want to copy mind you.

First off I'm guessing that the forward "bullet" portion is pretty short so it doesn't actually get far enough forward to engage the rifling. If it did then I'd expect major issues with extracting the fire formed case.

The next issue would be how serious a charge he's using. If this is for snake shot loads I doubt that it's going to generate gobs of pressure. And neither is stout charges needed given that anything he uses these rounds on is going to have to be close since the rifling puts a spin on the shot column which makes it spread fast. So it's more likely that there won't even be enough of a charge to properly cycle a semi auto such as a 1911. If it did THEN I'd be more concerned.

A more important issue is what powder is he using. Shot loads tend to have the shot in some sort of cup (a paper cup formed by a dowel pushing a disc into the case?) that puts the shot cup and any wads right down on the powder. Most typical handgun powders are going to generate high peak pressures with no room in the case to buffer the expansion. For example the same powder charge in a .38Spl may only generate 14K of pressure while that same charge behind the same weight bullet in a 9mm generates up around 25K simply due to the empty case volume difference. So if he's using a powder that is normally loaded with a half empty casing then the peak pressures could well be way off the scale before the shot bundle even begins to move. But if he's aware of this and is using a shotgun suitable powder such as Universal then I don't see any big issues.

[2AMMD]

jh45gun
See the thread here "making 45 acp shot shells". It explains how and should answer your question.
2AMMD

[BCRider]

Direct link to Grumpa's thread about how he does this.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185253-Making-45acp-shotshells-(My-Way)&highlight=making+45+acp+shot+shells

I'd have said that 6gns of Bullseye would be a bit strong and not the best powder given that there's no empty space. But his loads aren't even strong enough to cycle the gun much as I suspected. So it would seem to be just fine. I'd still want to check the primers for signs of overpressure which may not be noticeable in the actual recoil given the shot and how it may mask the effects compared to actual bullets. But hey, if the primers are fine and it's not strong enough to cycle the gun then there's certainly no harm being done.

[jh45gun]

This is what he said maybe if he shortens the cases it will be better.

On further examination there are pressure signs too. Rifling marks on the sides of the brass and flat primers. Time to reduce case length and powder charge.

[jh45gun]

I gave him the info for the thread of Grumpa's and the Harris PDF

Thanks guys.

[texassako]

There was a small article in one of the magazines a few months ago on doing it. I don't think their legal department would have let it print if they felt it was in any way dangerous.

[flounderman]

there are dies available to make 45 acp shot shells. You cut off 30-06 brass the right length and the ones I made, I cut wads from waxed milk cartons. Gas checks work inverted over the powder also, if you have them. I don't remember the powder I used but it was slower than bullseye. Shot loads from my experience will have more pressure for a given charge weight of shot and powder, compared to the same in a single bullet load. Possibly the shot tends to wedge. The end of the case has a 5 point, or maybe more crimp similar the the .22 shot shells. The length is the same as a loaded 45 acp and will feed from the magazine. The gun will, cycle and the load will be similar to a 410. Plenty of penetration and the rifling isn't fast enough to be much different than a smooth bore, cylinder choke. This isn't opinion, but experience from actually doing it. I think RCBS has the dies. The powder I used was probably unique. I load .357 shot loads using a gas check over the powder and another over the shot, crimped in and glued. You could do the same with a 45 acp, but it probably wouldn't feed from the magazine. I would cut the 06 cases to the length of a loaded 45 so they would eject and run them thru a sizing die without the expander and they should chamber. Better to have the shot shell dies for reliability.

[ReloaderFred]

It's been done for many decades. Somewhere I've got some .45 shot loads from survival kits for pilots in World War II. There were even shot loads made for the Thompson Submachine gun back in the "roaring 20's". It's not a new concept at all.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[jh45gun]

He made the dies from the Harris article it seems for his pistol he just needs to shorten it up a bit. Thanks for the replies. to 1.15 instead of 1.20

[MtGun44]

Not something new, works fine, headspacing is on the shoulder. Not critical at all
in a 1911 since firing pin will protrude literally 1/2", so even if case is 1/8" too deep
(impossible if on the extractor) it would fire.

Bill

[Charley]

You are limited in length in autopistols, with revolvers, you can make them cylinder length with no problems. I make cylinder length cases from .30/06/.308 for a M1917 S&W in .45 ACP. I also convert .308 to shotshells for 1911s, they are shorter, of course.

[jh45gun]

My self I have a Encore with a 45 Colt/410 12" barrel and love it I shoot most of my grouse using it.

[BCRider]

This is what he said maybe if he shortens the cases it will be better.

On further examination there are pressure signs too. Rifling marks on the sides of the brass and flat primers. Time to reduce case length and powder charge.

I'm not surprised. Bullseye is a very fast burning powder and the 6 grains he loaded is a pretty stout charge even when there's some room for it to expand into initially. Let alone when there's no room at all.

If I were in need of shot shells of this sort I'd most certainly be looking at a powder more like Unique or Universal which are far more tolerant of packing tight.

[Finster101]

I have not loaded for the .45 but have loaded several .357 shot shells. I think you will find that you get a tighter pattern with lower powder charges which more than makes up for any speed you may lose. I personally would want them just hot enough to cycle the action on an auto. Hotter loads will give you a bigger doughnut hole.

[OneShotKill]

Gentlemen: I too am interested in making 45 acp loads from 06, 308, etc cases. My friend who I taught to hunt and shoot, long ago, passed a few years ago and I inherited much of his reloading gear and ammo. In the batch was a box of factory Remington 45 acp shotshell loads. They have the fully crimped case and cycle 1911s completely. Also, in the batch was about 30 shotshells apparently made from various 308 or 30-06 military cases. The loaded cases are about the same length as any factory 45 load. About .277 from the front the cases are sized down to about 44 cal. The front of the brass has been camferred on the inside and then crimped, leaving the shot showing behind clear plastic. The shot appears to be 7 1/2 and is held in place by what appears to be a clear piece of plastic that appears to be slightly melted into place. These rounds shoot hard and cycle the 1911s as well as the Remington factories. I am interested in duplicating these loads as they are excellant and cycle 100 percent. Anybody know if this is a published method? I already cut down 223s to make 300 ACC so cutting a hundred cases or so is no big deal. Any information would be appreciated.

[bhn22]

RCBS makes a special die set to make 45 ACP shotshells from 308 cases. They're kind of expensive though.

[35remington]

Do not make shotshells out of 30-06 cases. The extractor groove size is incorrect, and this causes premature extractor wear on the automatic pistols it may be used in.

[Mk42gunner]

RCBS makes a special die set to make 45 ACP shotshells from 308 cases. They're kind of expensive though.

Saying the RCBS .45 ACP shotshell dies are kind of expensive is like saying someone is kind of pregnant.

There are other ways to work around the issue of not having the for real dies. I made some once from .243 Winchester brass, by using a combination of reloading dies I have on hand. Use a .308 based cartridge, not an '06; the extractor groove is different.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you just what dies I used, but I did get them to cycle in my 1911.

My starting powder charge was 6.2 W231 as recommended by Ed Harris. I don't remember if I had to adjust it up or down for sure.

If you can find it .45 Winchester Magnum brass is the right length, it will save you having to cut and trim rifle brass to length.

Robert

[Outpost75]

In .45 ACP revolvers you can use the Starline 5 in 1 blank cases with plastic .410 shotcup, 6 grs. of 231 or 5 grs. of Bullseye, 1/3 oz.of shot, and crimp a Walter's .36 cal. card wad in the end.

[OneShotKill]

Thanks guys. I am not really wanting to buy the dedicated dies. My friend did not have them. They do look very much like the CCI facory loads. My question is can I (1) cut the 308 case to say 1.25, then, (2) use a .40 cal SW sizing die to shrink the forward portion of he case say 0.30 inch, then (3) place the 410 skeet wad over the powder, loaded with 7.5 shot, and (4) seal the case by crimping in a 000 Buck pellet?

[MtGun44]

You are losing me there. What would be the reason for a 000 buck in a
.45? Seems like it would mess up the pattern a lot.

The normal application is about #6 shot for snakes or small game, I'm sure
7 1/2 would work fine, too. A cardboard top wad or gas check are normally
what is on the top.

Bill

[Thundermaker]

I knew an old tinkerer who used to make them out of .45 win mag brass. He used cut down shotgun wads and sealed them with a gas check.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been making them out of 7.62 blank cases. Please no responses on "blanks are made out of rejected cases" as 7.62 cases (US Made) are not reject cases ('06 ones were many years ago). Additionally the psi's are low in the 45 ACP shot shells. I do not use the RCBS dies. I make them the cases another way and also reload them. It is a process either way but then how many "snake" loads does one shoot up? I made up 50 of them 20+ years ago and still have a mag+ left. I've given about half away and the rest were shot in demo except for one that killed a rattlesnake. They are worth making and having and are as safe as any other ammo that has a load correctly worked up for.

Note 45 ACP shot loads in photo.

Larry Gibson

90031

[Scharfschuetze]

+1 on using the 7.62 blank cases. I have been using them for over 30 years and some have been through my 45s numerous times without any sign of wearing out. The biggest problem with any case used this way is recovering it as the case is ejected quite a ways from the pistol. In the field, that usually means a one time use for the case.

As you can see in the photo, I use a 35 cal gas check (upside down) to seal my cases. I like to use number 9 shot as a compromise between pattern density and individual pellet penetration and impact power. They are very effective on vermin and snakes. I used them quite a bit while deployed in the Army when we still used the 1911A1.

The RCBS dies that I use put a shoulder on the case for headspacing so there are no issues there.
Many of my cases have been through the chamber enough times that I have rifling impressions over rifling impressions. No issues there either so for the poster who mentioned that, don't give it a second thought.

[owejia]

I used the Harris PDF file to make a set of dies and use a plastic overshot wad instead of a gas check and they will run in my RIA 1911A 1 very well. I also use a 410 wad to hold the shot pattern better. Use mine mostly for shooting pigdeons in my hay barns to keep from shooting holes in the roof. I also make some long one for my 1917's that are almost as long as the cylinder. Good for crawling and four legged varmints.

[boltaction308]

I have created a web page with a bunch of info on the 45 shotshell

avr-developers.com/45shotshell

[OneShotKill]

The 000 buck in lie of a cover wad has been mentioned above and the other members says it does not interfere with patterns. I have been making duplex, 2 ball loads in 38 special and 44 mag for years. At 15 yards the pattern about 6 inches, usually one above the other. I also have been loading shotshells for decades in 38 and 44, lately experimenting with a single ball in the shot cap which seems to work well and give you a snake/small game load all in 1. I just wanted to develope a 100% reliable load for the 45 acp. The ones I have been given are 7.5 shot and 100% reliable. The 000 Buck cap does not take away any of the shot and if it does not interfere with patterns is just a bonus. I kill about 2 rattlesnakes per year . That is my goal.

[KCSO]

I have an RCBS die set for this that is in the sale rack if you are interested.

[boltaction308]

I am interested in the die set, PM sent

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice web page Boltaction303.