Help for new Mold Honchos

[Oldfeller]

So you want to Honcho a mold buy? You got somebody bapping you out a fine looking drawing for a new bullet, but you aren't sure about the tolerancing to put on it or the draft angles or the gas check shank length or how to spec the fit of the gas check? Hey, how about the metal alloy LEE will use when final tuning the mold cutting program? That all counts too.

These are some things to be worried about a bit if you are a new mold buy Honcho, especially if you haven't got the answers for them.

We have a half dozen experienced designers on the list and at least 3-4 experienced Honchos who have had to deal with LEE "oopsies" in the past. Good thing is that you can get your questions answered here.

Bad thing is we won't always agree and you will be asking the crustiest oldest members a question that we might beat up on each other a bit in answering it as these are old emotional topics for the somebodys what had to lap 100 molds to learn the lessons (or in Jump's & Lar's case had to send mold runs back to LEE and eat all the shipping costs and associated hassles).

Yeah, new Honcho -- you gotta protect yourself from LEE errors interpreting your nice new drawing ..... and you want your new mold to drop bullets better than the standard LEE stuff does too.

(iffen you are a smart new honcho, anyway)

Can't have answers without questions.

Ask away.

Oldfeller

[Willbird]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1694

This boolit here looks as though it should work OK, what worries me as the Honcho is LEE will re-design it or screw it up somehow. I want to hold them to the drawing and stated tolerances 100% just as if they are a machine shop (which they ARE)

the 434-250 group buy went well I think, But I have a gut feeling that Lee did not build the bullet for WW metal, being that I built in some extra dia. just to be on the safe side we came out of it OK (I think)

I really do not like LEE changing things as they see fit and not talking to the Honcho about it first, any other machine shop would have their parts rejected if they did that, normal procedure is to contact the customer and ask for print revisions if needed........otherwise unless you have a real nice customer that will allow non critical out of tolerance dimensions to slide.........your up sheet crik without a paddle.

I'm gonna come off as an opiniated cuss here but for $50.00 a copy I think they owe us that.

I don't belive Lee has ever stated anywhere that as a condition of mfg. of a custom product that they have the right to do whatever they please and we have to swallow it.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

The interest level in the 311407 Mod. if plenty high and there is not doubt the 25 minimum level will make. 45 2.1 will produce the detail drawing and it will be a good one.

Any help and advise in dealing with Lee will be appreciated. Feel free to show me the ropes. I really don't know what to ask, but I am more than willing to learn. I want this to go right and the folks get good molds.

[Oldfeller]

The antidote for LEE changing stuff against your wishes is proper communications directly with Doug.

Don't communicate to the answer phone ladies. (obviously they just pass on whatever they think it was you wanted to say)

Don't communicate to Pat -- he acts like a salesman and seems more interested in setting up a rebuttal scenario if issues come up than in helping you avoid them. Pat is the origin of the dreaded "it was a shared error on your part due to unclear call outs on the drawing". Avoid talking to Pat, I have never gotten anything useful out of him yet.

Call the LEE number and let these words fall out of your mouth, "Hey, can I talk to Doug in the mold room?" They will let you talk to him if he is there. Doug is the one that cuts the molds, decides if your design can be cut, schedules your mold job and is the only one you can communicate with verbally that MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE.

Now, when talking to Doug make sure you have put all same the stuff on the drawing as well. You talk to Doug this week and by the time your mold job comes up in 2 weeks he will have forgotten your conversation or will have gotten it mixed up with somebody else's phone call. Nothing beats having the important information on the drawing itself .....

LEE will perhaps alter your drawing if they don't understand that you really did want it that way for a reason. This requires Doug to understand a bit about what you are doing and that requires you to get through to the mold room and talk to him one on one.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

Next, you guys are not even getting complete drawings from your designers to send to LEE. You show lots of missing details which means LEE has to guess as to what the heck you want when Dougie goes to programming the CNC lathe. (they don't have a good track record when forced to guess for you, BTW)

How wide are the driver bands on those bullets? How long is the gas check shank? What is the release angle on that lube groove side (should be 45 degrees if you want them to simply drop out of the mold)? What metal is to be used for fitting (WW !!)? Who's gas check to snap fit the gas check shank taper for (Hornaday!!)? You HAVE to provide all the needed details right on your drawing itself to be protected from screw-ups.

Next, you new honchos DO owe your group buyers a detailed drawing that shows all the pertinent details so your buyers can 1) understand what he is signing up for and 2) be able to negotiate a return to LEE if they screw his one particular mold up.

Why do you need to equip the individual to send back a single mold?

=================================

Screw up reason #1

The boring bar got dull half-way through the run or it hit a bit of slag in the aluminum stock and chipped the cutting edge a bit, ruining the rest of the holes.

Result = undersized features on the cast bullets


Why do you think LEE claims a +0-.003" effective tolerance? Because the boring bars start out nice and sharp and gets dull during the mold run. When the boring bar gets dull, loads go up and the boring bar deflects more than it did at first. The deflected bar cuts a smaller form and your bullet size goes down down down.

Worst case was the 6.5 bullet size, Doug would break or dull a bar every fifty holes or so -- and have to stop, re-tool and re-tune the final finish dimensions off of cast bullet meaurements. 6.5 holes are a bitch to cut.

What can a Honcho do? Understand that if you don't start him out at least a thousanth over what your ideal dimension should be you are going to get stuff that is maybe up to .002" undersized by the end of the run.

8mm bullet designs for example -- nose diameters can go all the way up to .325" on the current bullet designs and still load in the throat zone just dandy. Why in the world did you choose to start out at .320" and take the chance of being sloppy undersized by the end of the run? Be smart and start out a bit larger, so when the boring bar gets dull you still always get your minimum .320" nose that you really wanted.

Ditto for body bands -- if you want to size to .326" start out a bit larger.

==================================

LEE is not a machine shop. They are a functional mold cutting monopoly. You try to send back a run of molds and Pat will use your drawing errors and omissions against you, claiming "shared responsability for the error", thus no return can be authorized. He will play 2 cards every time, the LEE standard +0-.003" tolerance and "we fitted it with lino -- you didn't tell us to use wheel weight metal".

**** boys, when pressed hard they will even claim that WW metal isn't a standard alloy and their WW metal isn't your WW metal.

Talk to Jumptrap -- he had to go there. Lar 45 had the benefit of our experience, so when they screwed up the FAT 30 they were looking at a fully detailed drawing with NO WIGGLE ROOM for them to hide behind and they took the run back and fixed it.

NO WIGGLE ROOM -- that's the Honcho's goal --

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

"http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1694

This boolit here looks as though it should work OK, what worries me as the Honcho is LEE will re-design it or screw it up somehow. I want to hold them to the drawing and stated tolerances 100% just as if they are a machine shop (which they ARE)"

==============================

Willibird,

What tolerances are you talking about? I don't see a tolerance block or a +/- tolerance reference anywhere on this concept sketch. What is the width of that last critical base driver band anyhow?

This is a good example of an incomplete drawing -- that's all.

==============================

Illusion #2 LEE will consult your geometry to figure out what you wanted

Fact -- Dougie will just guess unless he has numbers on the drawing to tell him what to shoot for. Or he will just go past your job on to the next one that does have a completed drawing for him to work on.

[Leftoverdj]

Most enlightening, Oldfeller. Told me how lucky I have been.

Honchoes have to look out for some problems on our side, too. There is always someone pressing for a pet notion that would be ideal in HIS gun. Honcho has to see that the limitations of a design are either clearly spelled out or force compromises to make the design more versatile. The very specialized designs seem to give the most trouble, but they also give the best results. I lean toward generic bullets for empty niches, but respect those striving for perfection.

Honchoes are taking on considerable financial responsibility, and we ought think about edging the surcharge up a bit. The current $6 only covers costs when things go perfectly, and they mostly don't. I suspect that most of the folks who honcho have taken a hit at least once. Might have only been been a few unbegrudged bucks, but the guy doing the work should not be losing ANY money.

[gutshot_again]

Honchoes are taking on considerable financial responsibility, and we ought think about edging the surcharge up a bit. The current $6 only covers costs when things go perfectly, and they mostly don't. I suspect that most of the folks who honcho have taken a hit at least once. Might have only been been a few unbegrudged bucks, but the guy doing the work should not be losing ANY money.

Or just turn the design over to Midsouth and they'll assume all the financial responsibility and get it to us for less money.

[Oldfeller]

Wee dogs, now if you want to talk about some mess. Stuff inside the list -- that's a mess sometimes.

My very favorite mess was one that I was the designer instead of the Honcho -- and I screwed up the spin rate calculations on a .177 caliber cast lead pellet because I just flat underestimated the VERY WIDE variation in spin rates that existed out there in .177 air-gun land (12 to 18 inches per turn). I got drubbed good on the airgun boards for my goof and I immediately reported it back here and I corrected my mistake before we finalled out the deal and I had corrected the spin related design details in plenty of time for the now spin-rate-known-good Brittany pellet to be cut by LEE.

But none of the guys living here on this board were avid air-gunners, nor did they follow the conversations on the airgun boards (although links were posted for them to do so).

BUT, there were two guys living here who REALLY REALLY wanted that big old fat heavy Pammy pellet and they swayed the whole group to continue on with the original design. None of the other folks would be bothered to follow along on the spin rate calculations when posted in EXCRUTIATING DETAIL, so they just voted their gut feel. The Honcho did right on the conflict situtation, he actually VOTED the entire group, twice no less. Then he correctly said "Hey, I work for the buying group and we are going to do what the majority wants".

Bad news is that 1/2 of the guys sat mum during the whole thing, didn't vote either time and didn't let out a peep either way -- until the pellets didn't work to suit them that is. Then they tried to jump the Honcho and I in turn jumped their gutless wonder butts for sitting there with their fingers up their noses while the voting was going on. BTW, the vote wasn't even close -- big majority to "go with the original design".

So, things get messy here too -- it is a fact. I have a $21 pellet mold that I "supported the group decision" with although I suspected it wasn't going to work from before the design was even turned into LEE.

So, you see the biggest sin is to sit silent when you have information or you have a relevant question. Every group buy we have people who pass it up because they won't be exposed by asking a "stupid question".

You are not doing anyone a favor by NOT airing the difficulties you see with a proposed design.

Oldfeller

PS yeah, I remember one pointy .308 bullet that was designed specifically to fit just one (1) Remington 700's chamber. I also remember that designer posting a golly gee wizz post during the long wait for LEE to cut his bullet about flattening the long ogive of a Veral Smith bullet into a wadcutter using some fast rifle powder, then a day or so later posting that his .308 pointy bullet wasn't going to have that issue (after he argued exhaustively to prove that he sure could do it to a sturdier nosed Veral bullet).

[Hardcast]

Oldfeller, thanks much for the advise. On my group buy, we ordered 33 molds and when it was all over, I had about $15.00 of the shipping money left over. That's cutting it pretty close. If there had been a problem and I had to send both boxes of molds back to Lee, it would have cost money out of my pocket. I don't want to sound ungrateful, because the group buy helped me get the mold I wanted without paying the $100.00 setup fee, but $6.00 for shipping and misc. expenses is cutting it pretty close. There is no room for error or unforseen problems.

[Willbird]

Oldfeller, I have only recieved ONE drawing from 452.1 to submit for a group buy.

It was very detailed, I am a machinest by trade, I know I could make a part from that drawing, and an inspector could inspect a part from that drawing,

The only thing that might be missing in a machine shop context would be surface finish, which is for the most part irrelevant to what were doing here.

Yes the posted pictures do not have all the dimensions on them, that is matter you can pursue yourself, I will not debate that issue.

Also I would like to see some confirmation from Midsouth that they are going to get a better deal than we can on the first order of a custom mold....it is purely conjecture based on the fact that it SEEMS as though they do not order the customs(well established) they sell in lots of 25 or more, Blanket PO's are very much a part of business everywhere...as is taking care of your good customers.

I can say I enjoy doing the group buy's. and my Wife Karen loves doing the bookwork required, I thought it would be a chore for her but she has done that kind of stuff all her life so she enjoys it.

Bill

[45 2.1]

The guy doing the work should not be losing ANY money.

I will point this out only once. There is more than one guy doing the work! Anybody priced what a draftman designer gets for his services these days. If not, your in for a very rude shock.

[Willbird]

I think 452.1 or whoever did the design work ought to get one of each gratis myself. on the 314-120 if everybody sends a check that said they wanted them that would add up to $1.00 extra per mold.


Bill

[Hardcast]

If it wasn't for the man doing the drawings, we would have nothing to send Lee Precision. Many thanks again for providing that skilled service for the rest of us. :)

[Hardcast]

I think 452.1 or whoever did the design work ought to get one of each gratis myself. on the 314-120 if everybody sends a check that said they wanted them that would add up to $1.00 extra per mold.


Bill

Not a bad idea Bill. I'm not in on any current buys, but on the next one I can't live without, I would gladly chip in a buck for the draftsman.

[Oldfeller]

Gutshot, the designs that we gave to Midsouth to run were part of a special Shooters arrangement with them to post proven designs that had been fully proven out by being run already before or having been extensively tested with machined form slugs in a wide variety of throats.

Midsouth later got burned by some poorly proven out bullet designs that had been given over to them later on by other groups and that prompted Midsouth to remove their side of the offer during a period of economic down-turn when "they had no time to mess with cast bullets". This tended to piss us off a bit as we had always done well by them (and you notice they kept on peddling our bullets too).

Plus, we had yet some other difficulties with yet some other folks lifting our group designs off of the internet and trying to do funny things with them without permission.

So, the Midsouth thing is in abeyance at this time -- for several reasons. It is still open, but I won't park a design with them any more. You can contact them if you wish to interest them in one of your designs.

This also goes a bit to explain why 45 2.1 won't post his full designs on the internet any more -- a decision I can understand but can't quite .... get cuddly with ??? I pushed designs out into the group mind early and then flogged them publically until folks couldn't offer any additional ways to improve them so they would be the very best bullet we could come up with. Lar 45 did the same thing, as did TRK.

To me, public discussion and full disclosure is best (if you can take the questions and discussion heat that is).

Oldfeller

[waksupi]

I do realize the reluctance to post designs, because of others taking advantage of the design.
I will say though, I can understand things visually, but have a real hard time grasping a design by description and numbers. Kind of a pig in a poke, to me.
Maybe in the future I will request a design emailed to me, so I can see it "in the flesh", so to speak, so I can see if I am interested.
Any chance of copywriting the designs?

[45 2.1]

All my designs are drawn to exact scale, plus you get some of the major dimensions. If you want a dimension at a certain place, that would be no problem if you ask. Copywriting costs money and I don't recall getting any. hahaha

[StarMetal]

Drafting & Design Technology

CAD Technician $20,800 - $33,318 $10.00 - $16.01

Mechanical Draftsman $25,220 - $41,750 $12.12 - $20.07

Electrical & Electronic Drafter $25,120 - $43,200 $12.08 - $20.77

DOE CAD Design Draftsman start at about $15 hr.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Ric, the Midsouth designs ARE control block drawings that may be used only by permission (jointly) by 45 2.1 and myself. Copywrite is different, more applicable to literature and songs and such.

And I suggested the e-mail-the-real-drawing-to-the-group idea to the boy just yesterday myself. He hasn't replied to me yet either. He's acting like his artistic temperment is getting into an uproar again because I called his published concept sketches "concept sketches". Being a fellow artist, you understand how it is when you don't feel like you are appreciated.

Yeah, you youngsters should appreciate 45 2.1's efforts -- I remind folks periodically that he actually drew all the drawings for most of our very best most successful bullets. I appreciate him, although I will still give him grief for posting incomplete concept sketches instead of real drawings.

But then again I like the irrracible old coot even though he is going to give me **** over "concept sketches" for years to come I betcha.

As far as rewarding him with free molds -- gee, you gonna give him a swelled head or something. I'd only do it if he posted a fully detailed design drawing.

Now, back to the farm -- economics of mold orders. IF you could beg or borrow a valid firearms liscense number you used to be able to get an additional discount out of LEE. Best price I ever got out of the boys translated into $17.99 shipped for a single cavity mold. Generally, they have been going for $21.99 of late (and the last one got clipped at the end by shipping charges going up unexpectedly).

Buckshot lost money shipping the last six holers, and he posted that the postage for "far travel needed to be upped some". Rule of thumb is add a buck to cover USPS going up on you unexpectedly.

Do you make money doing a mold run? Not really, most times I was out of pocket a bit for shipping. Should you make money -- you should certainly cover your costs and everyone expects this to take place.

==================================================

Now, what is LEE's true 100 mold run process capability in cutting 6.5 bullet molds?

==================================================

Somebody once measured an entire serialized 100 mold run of LEE molds with a state of the art Zeiss Calipso CMM and sent both the Zeiss report for their particular mold, a statistical roll up of the entire l00 mold lot and then hand lapped everybodys mold (and their sizing die) to within a half thou of what their Karlina's heart desired. (or their Caracano, or whatever the heck they had).

Then he started to take up a collection to buy Dougie some good ID gaging so he could monitor a mold's internal diameters with the mold still in the machine. Shamed Doug's bosses into buying it for him, actually.

LEE cuts better molds today than they used to. But they still screw up occasionally (FAT 30 wasn't that long ago was it?).


Oldfeller


(when we started out LEE would vary .006" on a critical diameter over 100 molds -- all oopsies included. They do better now, generally they stay within their avowed .003" unless a boring bar chips or something else bad happens)

[45 2.1]

Drafting & Design Technology

CAD Technician $20,800 - $33,318 $10.00 - $16.01

Mechanical Draftsman $25,220 - $41,750 $12.12 - $20.07

Electrical & Electronic Drafter $25,120 - $43,200 $12.08 - $20.77

DOE CAD Design Draftsman start at about $15 hr.

Joe

Those are pay rates, not what you can get work done for, you know things like profit, benefits, overhead etc. If you want to know some actual rates, around here a CAD draftman costs $35.00 to $50.00 per hour to draw something for you if you come in off the street. The wage rate multiplier is about 2.8 times what the guy actually gets paid on the job.

[45 2.1]

But then again I like the irrracible old coot even though he is going to give me **** over "concept sketches" for years to come I betcha.

You got that right in spades!

As far as rewarding him with free molds -- gee, you gonna give him a swelled head or something. I'd only do it if he posted a fully detailed design drawing.

Got one already and the heck you would.

LEE cuts better molds today than they used to. But they still screw up occasionally (FAT 30 wasn't that long ago was it?).

They just screwed another one up, little or no nose radius and 0.005" oversize on the nose at the front band. Thats not the only one they got "creative" on either.

[Oldfeller]

Damn, you almost get paid a fair salary then. Since you is so wealthy, no wonder you is willing to do pro-bono work for us fellow gun nut persons.

"Also I would like to see some confirmation from Midsouth that they are going to get a better deal than we can on the first order of a custom mold....it is purely conjecture based on the fact that it SEEMS as though they do not order the customs(well established) they sell in lots of 25 or more, Blanket PO's are very much a part of business everywhere..."

Go get 'um Willibird.... Midsouth is like any LEE MasterDistributor gets an additional 20% off the top of any listed distributor price list. They make a 20% profit off of selling our custom designs for THE EXACT SAME PRICE THAT THEY SELL ANY LEE MOLD. This is why the Shooters price was negotiated to be exactly the same price as the stock mold and it will REMAIN that exact same price or I will yank the designs (and they know I'll do it too).

Fellow you want to talk to is Chris -- he's a bit of a businessman sometimes so watch it when negotiating with him. Never give him a credit card number up front, he will suddenly charge you with "miscellaneous charges associated with placing the order" for **** you never discussed but suddenly he feels like he is owed for some reason. Other than that, he has a sense of humor and he likes playing telephone tag with you (and laughing while he does it).

Oldfeller

[Catshooter]

since 45 2.1 is gonna do the drawings for this series of true Keith moulds, and that is a pile of work, it was my intention to make sure he gets one of each mould at no charge, if he wants 'em. I don't see anything wrong with that, he's doing a lot of work.

While I don't want to honcho these moulds to make money, I don't have the room in my finances to support them either and I don't see why any honcho should have to out of pocket.

Oldfeller, thank you. Words to live by, or to build moulds to anyway.


Cat

[Oldfeller]

45 2.1 does do some nice clean well wrought geometry -- I can remember getting them drawings in and lighting up Autocad Lite to put in all them missing dimensions and angles and such. He knew I'd do it if he didn't, so it really didn't matter all that much in the end to either one of us.

Last time him me and Buckshot did a Loverin 6.5 Kurtz and I had to put the silly corrections in with a paint program because I was out of work at the time and had no Autocad access -- it looked silly but LEE still took it as all the required dimensioning was in place (and all the required notes too).

And no, I never gave him a free mold -- I wouldn't give me one either.

BTW, you still can do a bullet using LEE's forms by hand -- it just sucks because without clean geometry from CAD you have no freakin idea if the lines add up and actually touch each other. Plus, Pat then has to redraw your stuff and he edits in whatever he wants to (frightening thought, that). Plus, LEE then owns the bullet design if you do it that way (read the fine print boys and girls, read the fine print).

Bob, which one did they screw up? I didn't participate in it I don't think (unless it it the 6.5 kurtz that Joe is still holding until I come up in October to see him) Joe, Oct 10th sound good to you? I'll bring a camera and a little sand spoon for collecting Rompin' Ray's snortn' powder ....

LEE is training a new mold guy -- I don't even know his name. Since Doug has seniority I bet he flobbs off any tough mold cut job on the newbie ....

Kelly

[Leftoverdj]

I will point this out only once. There is more than one guy doing the work! Anybody priced what a draftman designer gets for his services these days. If not, your in for a very rude shock.

45 2.1, you are absolutely right. There is more than one guy doing the work, and your services are much appreciated. However, there is only one guy on the hook for the money. I will say that when the .25-20 project hit shipping snags that ran shipping costs up, I got unasked for donations to help cover it. This is a good, fair minded bunch.

I'm not dead set on anything. This is just a good opportunity to talk about problems. I'm perfectly willing to donate my time and am sure not looking to make any money, but someone could get caught hard on a batch that somehow goes awry.

[45 2.1]

Last time him me and Buckshot did a Loverin 6.5 Kurtz and I had to put the silly corrections in with a paint program because I was out of work at the time and had no Autocad access -- it looked silly but LEE still took it as all the required dimensioning was in place (and all the required notes too).

I wondered why that one looked so funny, now I know. Notes were added because our fearless leader on that one didn't tell someone else about them.

Bob, which one did they screw up?

The 434-240-PB on which they put a release angle on a spec'd flat nose and the BD45CM on which there was little or no nose radius and oversize nose (+0.005") at front band. You might need to get a collection up to send their moldcutters to blueprint reading school or to hire real machinists that can read and cut to spec. Like Willbird said, if he cut things that much off, he would not get paid for it plus some repercussions as well.

[Willbird]

Lee will give the same discount to C&R as they will to any other FFL.

Midway sells the 6 cavity for $35.00 meaning they must get better than 20% off retail, fmreloading and natchez are also real close to $35.00 too. (sorry I went back and re-read and realised I mis-read your math)


Bill

[gutshot_again]

Oldfeller, I wasn't aware of the problems with Midsouth. It just seemed like the easiest way to get a custom mould with the least amount of risk for any one person for the best price. Also was not aware of other folks taking the design and running with it. Thanks for explaining.

[Oldfeller]

Gutshot, it really isn't a problem -- we could park more repeater designs with Midsouth but they would only run them as single cavity molds and they would only run them after we ran our runs and had proved out the design out completely.

Me, I've never felt the urge to buy me a single cavity mold after I have already bought a six up mold from a group buy or a double up "experimental" pre-run mold from MM.

If we decided to do ongoing repeater molds as a group thing later on down the road with the best of the best, maybe we would reconsider Midsouth again. But right now that would just be fouling up somebody's mold run gathering efforts (and it is an effort, BTW) so I don't pursue it.

============================================

The Double standard -- Old Farts and the Newbies

In case you haven't noticed the older members really do treat each other a bit like family. The trash we throw at each other on occasion for the chuckles of it is pretty mild compared to repartee that we sometimes did in the past, plus we really do know each other pretty well after years & years of designs, group buys etc.

But it does amuse me to see new folks springing to 45 2.1's defense because I wuz mean and hurt his tender feelings. I'm sure he chuckled at it too. Perhaps nobody caught his oblique reference to "Fearless Leader" or perhaps you are too young to remember Boris and Natachia. If you do remember, remember the character's quirks and then guess who Fearless Leader might be .....

Anyway, you new folks do get to carry on the torch for a variety of things. Consider this thread to be edumacational, then also consider that this topic has been covered in an offical sticky which disavows any knowledge of any of the controversial items covered here (literally).

If you really want to get an unvarnished opinion of the ultimate harshest realities in dealing with LEE then you really need to ask Jumptrap. He'll give you a real earful on the subject (if he's in the mood to talk about it).

Yo !! Jumptrap -- you got your eyes on good buddy?

Tell these crazy risk-taking youngsters all about what happens when it all goes to the bad sometimes and you is the Honcho left holding the sack ...... hell, tell the list side of it too.

<g>

Oldfeller

[Willbird]

I for sure didnt think you hurt his feelings, but I guess I could have done it wrong either way, allow a possible mis-understanding continue, or speak up. Either way as a mere newbie I can be wrong and good for a laugh...thats ok :-)

I laugh at myself all the time.........:-)

Bill

[45 2.1]

But it does amuse me to see new folks springing to 45 2.1's defense because I wuz mean and hurt his tender feelings. I'm sure he chuckled at it too. Perhaps nobody caught his oblique reference to "Fearless Leader" or perhaps you are too young to remember Boris and Natachia. If you do remember, remember the character's quirks and then guess who Fearless Leader might be .....

You didn't hurt anything, but you cant spell Natasha worth a hoot, Boris. Betcha you can't pronounce it correctly in Russian either.

[Hardcast]

But it does amuse me to see new folks springing to 45 2.1's defense because I wuz mean and hurt his tender feelings. I'm sure he chuckled at it too. Perhaps nobody caught his oblique reference to "Fearless Leader" or perhaps you are too young to remember Boris and Natachia. If you do remember, remember the character's quirks and then guess who Fearless Leader might be .....

You didn't hurt anything, but you cant spell Natasha worth a hoot, Boris. Betcha you can't pronounce it correctly in Russian either.

you guys must be talking about moose and squirrel cartoon show.

[Buckshot]

"Buckshot lost money shipping the last six holers, and he posted that the postage for "far travel needed to be upped some". Rule of thumb is add a buck to cover USPS going up on you unexpectedly."

............It wasn't much overall. Main problem is I'm not centrally located and being on the left coast placed the majority of the moulds in the east central and eastern states. Postage ran close to $5.75 for many and I added a delivery confirmation to ALL of them which is $.45 each. The killer was that I sent 10 out insured, which the USPS charges $1.30 per $50.

I knew there was no way I was going to pay insurance for 34 moulds :D, but I could live with the delivery confirmations. They all seem to be getting shipped and delivered fine without a delivery confirmation or insurance. At current prices, the additional $6 should handle delivery to North America easily.

I sent 2 to two of the Canadian Maritime Provinces and it was cheaper then sending them from California to Ohio! Maybe took longer though and no one there has said anything about customs.

.............Buckshot

[Oldfeller]

"Fearless Leader, we report death of moose and squirrel, they ate dinner out of cans of beenie weenies while camping and moose farted into campfire and exploded into flames, burning up squirrel still all zipped up in his bloated sleepiing bag".

========================================

I never insured a mold nor spent any money on tracers. I had a spare mold or two for each run and I figured if it went wrong it was actually cheaper to ship a spare mold than pay all that extra money in insurance for all of the rest of the mold shipments. I never got stuck on one single mold shipment, ever.

I NEVER had enough molds by the end of a run no matter how many extras I bought -- there were always folks who wanted one after the fact. Once I screwed up and took in too many checks and had to give up my own mold (I was able to get another though since it was a Midsouth listed mold). No matter, I had hundreds and hundreds of cast up bullets as I actually cast off of each mold and measured the slugs before shipping the molds.

Now, does LEE actually keep the screwed up molds you send back and sell them to somebody else? Yup, they sure do, the ones that aren't too far off the mark. Ask Doug for a copy of a custom mold in any caliber and he will go to his shelf and read you off 3-4 different styles he "happens" to have one left on. Try him, he either saves his tuning molds and "real close" returns/rejects or else he cuts a new one to the stored program and sends it to you.

Example, Sundog actually bought a couple of 6.5 cruise missiles from Midsouth that I swear might have been rejects from the original run (strongly undersized on the nose section). It was so embarassing that LEE actually contacted Sundog to try to get him to send the molds back .....

Oldfeller

PS Remember 'ol Pottyfield posting the group about how he likes to relax and cast his own bullets over a campfire ........ and how he'd do all our molds for us for only retail list price plus a mild cost covering increase ?? Now that's the fellow what should have exploded in flames from eating them bad beenie weenies ....

[whitelitenin]

I thought the tolerance for Lee molds was -0 to +.003" :???:

[Oldfeller]

Aw ****, did I pull me another senor moment? Quite possible, they happen more and more frequently as I get older. Did you look at their current spec. page or are you just "remembering" too? If so, post us all a link to it.

White, if so the .003" range is still the same and you would be foolish to plan for LEE to consistently cut your bullet varying oversize for you as 1) tool dulling and boring bar deflection both cause their lathes to cut undersized holes and 2) LEE keeps on using Lintotype alloy which casts a bullet slightly bigger during final CNC tuning stage which causes them to cut a mold that fits lino and casts slightly undersized when using normal WW metal and 3) it has been the experience of the group over time that LEE tends to cut undersized when they go off into the weeds.

Or maybe they now "aim to the plus side" for these same reasons now and at some time they changed the way they worded their spec. sheet.
(yeah -- that's the ticket -- Pat has decided to risk putting his tolerance on the plus side so he will get a few no-fits and no-loads and jam-ups and a few more lawsuits)

Or much more likely it was just another brain fart.

Oldfeller

[Oldfeller]

moved to top for hijack surgery

[gitano]

I was wondering what those with "Lee Experience" think of asking Lee to replicate one of their designs to a larger caliber? Specifically, recreating the 459-500-3R in ".50 caliber". For example, the result would probably be something like a 515-500-3R or 515-550-3R.

Do you think the pitfalls and cautionary notes listed throughout this thread still apply?

Since it is their design to start with, do you think a drawing supplied by 'me' would be necessary/required?

Thanks,
Paul

[Buckshot]

...............Paul, I suggest you submit the cavity "Cut to" dimensions as a bare minimum so far as OD is concerned. They say guarentee from (zero) .000 to .003" oversize. If you want a .510" in WW, I'd spec the mould cavity to .511" minimum. If for pure lead then I'd spec it to .513" minimum.

One of these days when I get my lathe put back together,and if I ever get caught up I'd like to make a couple block sets with 4 cylindrical cavities each. the cavities for 8 different diameters. These could be used to cast various alloys at various temps to get a good look at shrinkage.

...............Buckshot

[Oldfeller]

If you are looking for an easy way to get empircal shrinkage data off your alloy of "WW metal" just take the gas check shanks of your existing range of bullet molds, measure the diameter at the mouth opening with the blocks tightly shut and then measure the as-cast gas check shanks at the same orientation after you cast some completely filled slugs (watching out for any gas check shank taper of course). You already have a large range of sizes in your current crop of molds to see what it looks like, shrinkage-wise, across that wide range of sizes.

==========================================

Now, does all this LEE stuff still apply? Yep.

Buckshot has always tended to paint a simplistic rosy picture about dealing with LEE and he was lucky enough never to get burned by them on the molds he did honcho. (also, one of the runs Buckshot made had the drawings prepped by other folks to fill in all the design blanks)

Those who have been burned take a much more thorough view of "protecting ourselves from LEE" than those who have not. So you get to pick, you can be all rosy eyed or you can be "better safe than sorry".

When dealing with over a thousand dollars of other folks money, some would say being rosy-eyed is verging on irresponsible and it tends to backfire badly when things go wrong ..... and LEE can make bad things happen, believe it.

Oldfeller