What should I do with my IMR 4227?

[Animal]

Hey guys, I just scored a 1lb bottle of IMR 4227. I load for 357mag mostly, an occasional 38spl and hopefully .44 mag soon. I know this is supposed to be good for magnum handguns and even some rifle loads, I'm just not familiar with it. I picked it up because it was available and I might not see anything else in the near future.

I've mostly settled on H110, 2400 and HP-38 for my 357mag loads... can anyone tell me how this stacks up? I checked my powder burn chart and it it seems like it isn't to far different from the H110 and 2400. I don't intend to hunt with any of my loads, but I do load around the concept of survival for any SHTF event.

I currently load with 158gr Hornaday XTP and 158gr cast lead flat nose. I have CCI small pistol and small pistol Magnum, WSP and Fed #100.

Should I just put this powder away for a rainy day? or will this make a particularly good load?

[462]

Lyman lists loads for it in their Cast Bullet Handbook and Reloading Handbook.

I've tried it in the .357 Magnum Blackhawk, but got better results with W 296, 2400 and No. 9.

Try it, you may like it.

[PS Paul]

My most-favored powder for .45 Colt loads, it falls between H110 and 2400 in performance/boolit speed, although "burn rate" is on the very slow side.

You can safely load medium-speed reduced loads OR full-house loads in both .357 and .44 mag. It is a single-base extruded powder that is sort of old school, but it has some very interesting characteristics that I really like. PLUS, it is one of my most-accurate powders in .45 Colt as well. It c an safely be compressed too, so a lot of variety in use.

Should be lots of data in new and old manuals, the usual caveats about "working up safely" and blah, blah, blah apply. I use info interchangeably with H4227 and IMR4227, but it is only recently they were said to be, by factories, identical. Was not always the case.

I love it, it is accurate, slow "push" rather than fast "crack" recoil-wise it also has a unique smell I enjoy. You'll find mag primers are sometimes best, especially with heavy loads, there are always some unburned granules, but don't let that dissuade you. Use it and shoot it, you'll see it is one of the best kept "secrets" out there in your calibers since a lot of guys just overlook it nowadays.

.357 mag 158 gr. SWC 14.0 gr.= 1,103 fps 15.5 gr.= 1,253 fps (max)
.44 mag 240 gr. SWC 21.5 gr.= 1,036 fps 24.0 gr.= 1,263 fps

FWIW in .45 Colt, 255 gr. SWC with 20.0 gr. 4227 is somewhere around 1,000 fps. more or less. Strong, large-frame Ruger BH can safely shoot WAY heavier charges, but in my BH small-frame flattop, I like 18.6 to 20.0 gr. for a max of around 23,000 cup, which is safe in those smaller guns.......

Hope this helps!!
Paul

[Animal]

Excellent! I remember looking at load data for it a while back and thought that the pressure to velocity ratio seemed like a winner. Decent powder has been VERY scarce in this part of Georgia for a long time now. I may try to pick up another bottle of it tomorrow if they still have any (1lb a day).

I'm looking forward to trying it out soon. Thanks

[41 mag fan]

IIRC....21.0gr behind a 250gr cast for my 44mag SBH's

[Animal]

I've noticed most 158gr swc call for 13-16gr. I'll be using round nose flat point. Would this be a safe charge area to work?

[PS Paul]

I've noticed most 158gr swc call for 13-16gr. I'll be using round nose flat point. Would this be a safe charge area to work?

RNFP boolits shoot well with most revolvers. I prefer the RNFP, especially in .45 Colt, but use them often in .357 as well..... I believe the ogive of the boolit helps align them better from throat to cone to barrel than does a sharp shoulder. Provides a better "fit" in my guns anyway.....

The same loads are fine with that design, BUT I would not start with more than 14.0 to 15.0 gr. 16 is over max for some data. The data listed above is from Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook and shows the SWC at 42,000 cup with 15.5 gr.

Just use prudence and diligence, as usual, and you'll be in good shape!!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

In the 44 Mag with a 250 grain bullet, 17 grains of 4227 is a good medium power target load. It was listed originally by E. Keith for the 44 special. If you want more performance with the 4227 you can, according to Dupont tables, go as high as 22-23 grains and that is a max/compressed load. LLS

[Uncle Jimbo]

Well Animal, if you can't find a load you like with 4227 for your 357, you can always give it to me. I got a old 25-20 that love that powder with a 85 grain cast.:bigsmyl2:

[Animal]

Well Animal, if you can't find a load you like with 4227 for your 357, you can always give it to me. I got a old 25-20 that love that powder with a 85 grain cast.:bigsmyl2:

Or, I could use it for my next potatoe gun idea lol [smilie=w:

[steelworker]

I have a H&R handi rifle in .44 mag. Its favorite powder, over a 429421, is 4227. Nothing else really comes close for me. Its a great powder. Send it to me for proper disposal if you are not completely satisfied. :)

[nodda duma]

I know you folks are talking pistol, but 4227 is also a go-to powder for M1 Carbine.

[eljefeoz]

...And for the 7x57 with 145 RCBS GC.
Any 45ACP users?

[Animal]

Sounds like 4227 is one of the best kept secrets. I don't hear people talking too much about it, but apparently it has some pretty loyal followers. I was going to go ahead and work up some 4227 loads today, but I had a case of cold feet. I revisited Blue Dot instead. Last time I used Blue Dot I experienced some pretty horrible leading, but I have been using a different lube lately and found it to work great. 9.4 grains of Blue Dot worked out really well, and no leading. I'll probably crack open my 4227 next weekend and see what it's all about... I just don't like the fact that my Lee manual list it as a 'compressed' load and won't even provide a 'min' starting load.

[PS Paul]

Animal, I sent a PM and an e-mail to you. I don't think it's cool to reproduce scanned shots of Lyman data on an open forum, but I have scanned some data for you and will send via e-mail.
PS Paul

[Uncle Jimbo]

I can plainly see that you are not going to send it to me, so here is what I loaded my 357 with.
158-160 grain cast bullet. I use a lee gc swc
started with 13 grs of 4227 velocity approx 1210
ended with 15 grs of 4227 velocity approx 1340
8" barrel Colt
Info came from my old Pacific manual #4
Used it for short time. Found other powders that worked better for me and my applications
Give it a try, and always start at the low end of the powder charge.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I haven't tried it in handguns myself as I hoard it for my M1 Carbine and bigger .30 rifles for mid velocity loads. Most accurate powder I've used in a .30 Gov't 06 with a Lyman 311332!

[atr]

4227 either Hogden or IMR is great in my .357 and .44 and 25-20 and 22 hornet
it was originally developed for the 22 hornet
anytime I see some for sale I buy it !

[Animal]

Animal, I sent a PM and an e-mail to you. I don't think it's cool to reproduce scanned shots of Lyman data on an open forum, but I have scanned some data for you and will send via e-mail.
PS Paul

I got your email but for some reason it wouldn't open. I'll try again later. Thanks

[Animal]

4227 either Hogden or IMR is great in my .357 and .44 and 25-20
it was originally developed for the 22 hornet
anytime I see some for sale I buy it !

I picked up another pound of it yesterday. Our LGS has a 1lb limit per day. I figured I couldn't go wrong with it since so many people have great experiences with it.

[nekshot]

I have a 7mm remmag that thinks it is the only powder it likes with cast. I like the smell of it!

[Bohica793]

I've loaded 158 LRN over 12-14 grains of IMR-4227 OAL 1.560 Winchester Small Magnum primers running from 1000 to 1200fps from a Dan Wesson Model 15-2 6 inch. The sweet spot was 13 grains for me. None of the loads beat me up and accuracy was good. No leading but that is more a matter of bullet size and lube than powder.

[Animal]

The only thing that has me hesitating about using this powder is the fact that my Lee manual states it is a compressed load. It doesn't give a starting min load... just one Max compressed load.

I like to seat my boolits above the min COL. most of my bullets are seated/crimped at 1.620 to 1.627. I feel like this might help the safety of my rounds while working up new loads and provide a safe buffer in the event that my powder measure throws a high charge.

What is a safe starting charge for a compressed load like this? 3% below?

[Bohica793]

Get a Lyman 4th edition. It gives much more complete load data including starting and max loads. For the Lyman 358311 160 grain round nose in a .357 magnum case, it lists a starting load of 11.8 to a max (compressed) of 17.0 with a COL of 1.590.

[WILCO]

I know you folks are talking pistol, but 4227 is also a go-to powder for M1 Carbine.

Plus it'll run in .308 for some boolit weights.

[PS Paul]

The only thing that has me hesitating about using this powder is the fact that my Lee manual states it is a compressed load. It doesn't give a starting min load... just one Max compressed load.

I like to seat my boolits above the min COL. most of my bullets are seated/crimped at 1.620 to 1.627. I feel like this might help the safety of my rounds while working up new loads and provide a safe buffer in the event that my powder measure throws a high charge.

What is a safe starting charge for a compressed load like this? 3% below?

357 mag 158 gr. SWC 14.0 gr.= 1,103 fps 15.5 gr.= 1,253 fps (max)

Animal. with the 158 gr. boolit, use this data. It's from Lyman's Cast Bullet manual.

I normally don't load the listed compressed loads with 4227, but I've loaded some right to the boolit base.
Unlike H110 or 296, you don't need to sweat reduced loads with 4227.

I saw your post that my data came and you couldn't open it. I have Windows 8 with some newer apps and that may be the case.

In any event, I'll get to just sending a PM with some data and/or an e-mail with the data rather than pics.

I hope this helps you. Of course, there has to be some level of trust in the fact I'm copying the data correctly, but I promise I won't steer your wrong, dude!!
Paul

[woody402]

I use 13.5 grains under a 173 gr cast in my 357's. I work very good in my Blackhawk and 686. Also use it in the 357 max. 44 and 45 colt with different bullets. Very good powder for the max.

[Animal]

PS Paul,

I went ahead and worked up 6 loads of 4227 from 14.0 to 15.0. I used a heavy crimp, CCI 550 primer. None of the loads seem to be 'compressed'. COL is 1.614 and I can still hear the powder move when I shake the rounds next to my ear.

I'll shoot tomorrow and report back.

[PS Paul]

Oh, good! You'll probably really like it. Note the smell. I really enjoy it, oddly enough......

I'll be checkin' back tomorrow!

[Animal]

Okay guys, I'm back with my report...

My gun hates this powder! If it isn't the powder that it hates... it must be the way I'm loading it. My data:

-158gr lrnfp
-60/40 beeswax/Vaseline pan lubed
-CCI 550
-5 x fired Starline nickle brass
-heavy 3/4 turn crimp Lee 3rd die
-start charge 14.0
-end charge 16.0 (compressed)
-1.622 C.O.L.
-increments of 2/10s of a grain @ 7 each
-All shots fired at 15yds from stand.

Pros: No leading whatsoever. I think this round cleaned out my barrel better than any Chore Boy/Lewis Lead Remover session I've had.
I was forced to deal with my anxiety over compressed loads (ex; my gun is intact, my hand isn't blown apart and I'm alive)

Cons: Absolutely no grouping whatsoever. Some loads acted like they wanted to form a group but then said... "ahh, screw it. Lets pepper the target instead"
Kicked like a mule! Its like hitting the palm of your hand with a hammer after 15.4gr
Crimp jump caused ftf after 15.6gr

Lee Modern Reloading says this is a safe round @ 15.8gr with a C.O.L. of 1.580. I took it up to 16.0 with a 1.622 COL. I could not hear the powder move while shaking it next to my ear at this charge weight and COL. I had no indicators of excessive pressure through the loads, yet I started feeling a bit nervous after 15.6. I was hoping that the higher end of the pressure curve would yield better accuracy as some powders have done for me in the past.

My conclusion is that I will not return to any form of this load unless a seasoned reloader can offer me some solid insight to an improvement, or point out a fatal flaw in my load. However, I MAY try it with my 158gr XTP bullets. I'll reserve this powder for my Ruger SRH after I get a set of dies to reload a .44 magnum. I've also seen that this powder gives good results in .308 Winchester. My heart is set on a Remy 700 .308, so that or my Ruger should provide a good home for my 4227.

Winchester 296 will be next

Thanks guys! Even though I didn't form a love affair with IMR4227 I am equally pleased with the knowledge and experience I've gained. It's like checking off a block or sticking an extra ribbon on your chest.

[MarkP]

But it smells good! Pre and Post firing.

[Animal]

But it smells good! Pre and Post firing.

Smelled like failure to me lol wish it didn't!

[Single Shot]

I know you folks are talking pistol, but 4227 is also a go-to powder for M1 Carbine.

And it is the go to for the accurate load in .223 with SAECO 60 grain #221 listed in the LYMAN 4th page 109. I use it in a Handi with a bull barrel, and in my black rifle.

[Fishman]

Little thread drift so I will do the same. With that burn rate it might be pretty good in the 300 blackout. Anybody tried it? Lots of good info in this thread!

[Animal]

I heard about that today from a guy I know at my LGS. He swears by it for Black Out