What to plan on the one mile shot?

[hightime]

I found a safe place to shoot my 45-110 Ped. Sharps for the mile shot. I think the tall staff I have is good for that. I kind of have a plan , but would like to here what you guys think. On my previous range a 650 yd. shot was all I could get. I have good luck in hitting the gong 2'x 3' at least nine out of ten and I like my loads.
I'm planning on a huge white target, maybe 8' wide and at least 8' tall. I'm not sure how to check my shots. I might dig a safe pit for the spotter and then use a radio. I'm pretty sure my normal spotting scope won't pick out the shot at that distance, it might at the 1/2 mile. Maybe I can drive back and forth after each shot, that will take quite a while. I might even try a few shots at the 1/2 mile first.
I'm thinking this will be a hoot. Advice welcome. I'll be safe.
80815

[waksupi]

If you try spotter in a pit, keep in mind the extreme angle the projectile will be approaching at that range.

[kokomokid]

Maybe I will get to try my 45-2.6 at that someday. I think you may need to look up some of Kenny Wasserbergers old post as he is probably the go to guy at that range. Cheek weld to stock may be a problem? LB

[451 Pete]

Hello Hightime,

I would suggest that you work your way out from your 600 yd. sight setting in 100 yd. increments. In looking at your rifle I am thinking that your sight staff is about 4 inch's long. We shoot one match every year at Camp Atterbury where we start at 1000 yds. and go out to 1200. We have talked about going out further but most of the fellas run out of sights. The 4 in. staff is too short to get much past 1200. You will probably also need a lace on cheek piece to get a reference point when you get that staff up into the higher settings. The target we shoot on for this match is 6 ft. high and 10 ft. wide using the old LR military target as the 6ft. x 6 ft. center of the target. This is the view of the target at 1200 yds.


http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/451pete/Joe%20Hepsworth%20Match%202012/Joehepsworthmatch2012008.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/451pete/media/Joe%20Hepsworth%20Match%202012/Joehepsworthmatch2012008.jpg.html)

For 1760 yds. you may need or want something a bit larger for shooting the additional 560 yd. past where that photo was taken from.


Just my thoughts ... Pete

[Tom Myers]

hightime,

Just for kicks I ran some calculations to see what the estimates would be when shooting at 1 mile.

A 530 grain Lyman Postell bullet should launch at around 1450 fps if boosted by 110 grains of Swiss powder.
Using the real world B.C. 0f 0.36 for the Postel bullet, then at 1760 yards the remaining velocity would be in the neighborhood of 624 fps.

The time of flight should be about 6 1/4 seconds.

The apex of the trajectory would be 166 feet at a point 975 yards down range.

The launch angle would be about 5 1/2 degrees so, if you have a 36 inch sight radius, your sight setting would need to be 3.37 inches above your 100 yard zero.

The incoming impact angle calculates out to be 8.7 degrees

Not saying that these values are what will actually happen but it is fun to see how close the prediction will be to the actuality.

[Lead pot]

Tom.

Working from memory, I think the sight setting Kenny had was 3.40 on his sight staff. A 100 yd zero on a Shiloh long range exp. would be around 36. That would make your estimate a little high. But figuring the BC you used might make it close because they used a higher BC bullet.

Kokomo you can forget the cheek weld at that range you shoot that rifle like you would a M-79

[leeggen]

Higtime, just keep us upto date as to this mile long shooting. Sounds fun!
CD

[hightime]

That's cool, thanks guys. 166' ? Really?
I called my 36 year old son and he wants to join in. He's got the same rifle in 45-120. We are wondering if we might use a actual telescope.

[Don McDowell]

Your sight doesn't have enough elevation, and pretty good chance it doesn't have enough windage. Until you prove your loads out at 1000, shooting that extra 700 yds might be quite the exercise in burning powder and throwing lead down range for little to no gain.
At the Wasserburger mile shoot they have a spotters pit inside an old boiler placed about 300 yds short and a bit to the upwind side of the target.

[hightime]

Your sight doesn't have enough elevation. Really Don? I thought the 5'' sight was enough. Is there a taller one?

[rhbrink]

Could put a spacer under the sight base?

RB

[Tom Myers]

Hightime,

Just for fun, and if you care to, could you give is the particulars of your load and sight setup? Powder? Charge Weight? Muzzle Velocity? Sight Radius, Sight setting at 100 yd zero Sight Staff Height (available elevation value) and finally the bullet ( If a custom bullet, then weight, Nose radius, tip type, size - etc.).

Somewhere, I have a piece of software that calculates long range trajectories and takes into consideration the angle of the bullet trajectory and the effect of gravity as it pertains to increasing or decreasing the bullet velocity on the upward and downward legs of the trajectory path. It even takes into consideration the density of the air at the varying altitude of the trajectory. Amazingly precise and accurate, I wrote the program using the algorithms developed for artillery before the advent of computers.

If I can locate the software and plug in the data, perhaps we can learn something.

It would just be an exercise in predicting a long range trajectory and is not just about getting it right the first time. Getting it right means that nothing very useful was learned. Getting it wrong and then determining what went wrong is the real way to learn something.

[Don McDowell]

Your sight doesn't have enough elevation. Really Don? I thought the 5'' sight was enough. Is there a taller one?

Are all 5 inches of that staff usable? I'm thinking probably not. Most reports from the Mile shoot will indicate that a grease groove bullet needs to have something in excess of 386 points of elevation to get to the mile target. That match is shot at about 4600 ft elevation. Rule of thumb they use to determine if a person can shoot the mile is if there's at least 2 inches of adjustment above the shooters 1000 yd zero.
So just for kicks and grins you may want to spend some time testing your loads at 1000 yds, get them to the point the bullet is landing point on making nice round holes in the target with probably no more than 3 moa groups.
Good luck with your trials and tribulations on this long range stuff, it will be interesting to see how your results compare to the other folks that have participated in the Mile Match.

[357Mag]

Hightime -

Howdy !

You might want to augment your ability to see bullt holes in paper @ 1,000yd by use of " Shoot-N'-See " types od products.

I used these placed like an overlapping grid, and didn't have to travel all 1,000yd to the target to be able to make-out the " glowing " bullets holes via use of a high magnification scope.


With regards,
357Mag

[jhalcott]

You CAN make your own "shoot and see " targets. Paint the surface of the backer with "day glo" paint. Cover this with a thin plastic sheet stretched tight. Paint the plastic with white paint with a black bulls eye. The bullet will cause the tight plastic to shrink away from the hole leaving the bright under coat visible. I have used these at over 300 yards with varmint rifles to check loads while in the field. My local ranges have 200 yard limits! Certain stores will carry wider rolls of "saran" or plastic wrap. I bought 3 rolls of 36 inch wide plastic wrap from Ollies. A couple cans of spray paint and some tape (to hold it stretched over the backer) and you have a 30" target.

[hightime]

Well guys remember I don't shoot for competition, but I sure love to shoot. Don I'll do what you said about the 1,000 yards. On my home range I only have data at 600. After sight in at 600, I have 2-3/4'' of staff adjustment left. That does sound like trouble, we'll see.
Tom, I use Starline brass, 110 gr. Goex 1F though a 24'' drop tube and 3/8'' compression, a cardboard wad then a RCBS #82084 530 gr. round nose bullet with SPG lube. I don't know the fps. I was guessing 1,400.

My sights are on one mark at 100 yds out of seventy. Like Don said even though there are eighty marks only seventy are usable. There are twenty marks to the inch. The sight radius is 37 - 1/2''.

I love the ideas for painting the target. Good one. I'll do it.

Owen

[dk17hmr]

Come on out and you can test it out at my range. I have a large sand hill behind my target that makes it easy to see a miss. My dad and I shot his 45-70 out to 1350 yards and we were able to see splashes.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/IMG_20130623_184918_zpsbc51e3e5.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dk17hmr/media/IMG_20130623_184918_zpsbc51e3e5.jpg.html)

We tried 1 mile but didn't have anywhere near enough elevation on the sight and couldn't see a splash. But my dad loads his 45-70 light and slow...405gr at 1350-1400fps. A larger bullet going faster will make a splash.

You are going to want a large target a couple sheets of plywood would work, we were shooting at my 30x30 steel plate I use for extreme distance with my scoped rifles, it was hard to locate in the little peep sight.

I have often thought of having a guy up front at about the 1000 yards line. If I were to that they wouldn't be inline with me and the target.

[hightime]

Cool that sounds like a hoot. WY is a long way from northern MN. I did just get a Bronco from there. I wonder if the 45-110 has much more range.

[2AMMD]

dk17hmr.... I live in Maryland. Getting worse every year. Nice to see some people still have their rights (and space). Beautiful country too.
Any jobs out there?

[Don McDowell]

Hightime, on average, you'll need 15 minutes (3 marks on the staff) elevation for every 100 yds beyond your 600 yd setting .

[hightime]

So there's a chance. According to that I'd need 33 more and I have 54. Thanks Don.

[Don McDowell]

That's just a rough estimate. Light, wind,temp, humidity and mirage will have a huge affect on your sight settings especially when you start past that 600 yd mark. Then you have the problem of whether or not your bullet will stay stable to 1000 yds and beyond.. Lots of things affect these big slow bullets at distance.

[1Shirt]

Google Long Range Shooting with 45-70. There is a thread on shooting in excess of a mile back in the late 1800's. They used a target that was umongus. something like 22 ft high and 40 feet wide. Interesting reading.
1Shirt!

[Tom Myers]

Hightime,

I worked through your bullet, sight and load information and came up with these results.

I don't have the exact dimensions of the RCBS bullet but this is the data that I have inferred from images and information seen on the internet.

If your bullet differs substantially from the dimensions shown, let me know and we'll recalculate.

The Precision Cast Bullet Design and Evaluation Software (http://www.tmtpages.com/draw/draw.htm) displays these dimensions

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/R.C.B.S._Mold_45-530-RN_Ske.gif

The G1 Ballistic Coefficient Estimator (http://www.tmtpages.com/cast_bc.htm) returns a ballistic coefficient of 0.3683 at sea level and standard atmospheric conditions.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/CalcBC.gif

Using your sight radius of 37.5 inches and a 5 point setting for a 100 yard zero, a 75 point sight setting for a 600 yard zero then assuming an elevation of 1000 feet at Duluth along with standard atmospheric conditions at 70 degrees a muzzle velocity of 1395 fps will adjust the BC of the Bullet to 0.386 , and entering the values into the Precision Ballistics Software (http://www.tmtpages.com/basbal/bal.htm) returns a sight setting at 600 yards of 75 points.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/Data.gif

Extending the range out to 1760 yards indicates a sight setting of 363 points or 2.88 inches above your 600 yard setting.

It will be a close thing. You have two options for extending the range. A hotter burning powder and a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient and most likely will need both to have any adjustment for local conditions.

Hope this helps.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/Sights.gif

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/Trajectory.gif

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/SideWind.gif

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/Hightime-Rifle/Head-Tail-Wind.gif

[Kenny Wasserburger]

you will need two full inches above a 1000 yard setting.

I do this all the time, a 45-110 and 45-100 are the usual match winners, excellent quality in loading is a must Vertical will kill you at those ranges, I just set a record of 8/10 8 hits in 10 shots on a 15 foot wide by 8 foot tall target with a 48 inch bull. a few weeks ago.

Paper patch bullet of my design took all 3 top spots this past week, 2 shooters using my rifle took first and 3rd place.

KW
The Lunger

[hightime]

Wow guys, thanks Tom for all that that's great information and I will save it.

Kenny thanks for the first hand information. It's going to be close. I don't expect much, but I just want to say I did it. Opportunities to shoot that distance are near impossible it Northern , MN. After I try this I may not be able to ever do it again without heading out West. I may have all day to try, but I think I only have about 40 loads. I think I might be flinching by then.

[Tom Myers]

Hightime,
You need to get down to Harris, MN., about 105 miles South of Duluth and attend some of the Gopher Rifle and Pistol BPCR matches.
The club hosts three 200, 300, 500 and 600 yard gong shoots and two 800, 900 and 1,000 yard matches each year. A fantastic bunch of folks and absolutely the most enjoyable times of the year for me.

There is one Gong shoot still pending this year. The shoots are a two day affair.
I usually go down on a Friday and set up camp, get sight settings then get rested up for the next two days of shooting. At least 100 rounds are needed for the gong shoot and not less than 60 for sighters and scores for the long range shoots.

I'll look for the link to their schedule for the last gong shoot next month and get back to you

[hightime]

Thanks, it sounds like fun. I just bought my old Bronco at Harris. They sure do have more open country than we do. My one mile shoot will be in two weeks. Owen

[Don McDowell]

You might want an alternative bullet to try. I've campaigned that rcbs bullet quite a bit. It is fantastic out to 800, but can be a bit touchy going to 1000, and I'm not at all sure it'll stay stable to the mile.
It would be to your advantage if you could run a few of your loads over the chronograph, I'm thinking your 1400 fps guesstimate is probably something around 100-150 fps optimistic.
The target will tell you what needs to be done.
Have fun and let us know how it turns out.

[hightime]

If I cast another bullet, what do you think might work?

[Don McDowell]

The "money" bullet styles are pretty popular, and the old postell or the Saeco 745 might do the trick. That RCBS bullet might do it, but I think those 3 big lube bands give some problems as the bullet slows down .

[Thunder50/90]

I found a safe place to shoot my 45-110 Ped. Sharps for the mile shot. I think the tall staff I have is good for that. I kind of have a plan , but would like to here what you guys think. On my previous range a 650 yd. shot was all I could get. I have good luck in hitting the gong 2'x 3' at least nine out of ten and I like my loads.
I'm planning on a huge white target, maybe 8' wide and at least 8' tall. I'm not sure how to check my shots. I might dig a safe pit for the spotter and then use a radio. I'm pretty sure my normal spotting scope won't pick out the shot at that distance, it might at the 1/2 mile. Maybe I can drive back and forth after each shot, that will take quite a while. I might even try a few shots at the 1/2 mile first.
I'm thinking this will be a hoot. Advice welcome. I'll be safe.
80815
I am a big fan of the Wasserburger mile shoot. am working on getting ready to trying to shoot a mile. I have a 50/90 with a Souls XLR. I try to read anything about his shoot. Mr. Kenny Wasserburger and his group of shooters are awesome. I found a book called Down Range Data by William T. Falin, Jr ( A guide to extreme long range shooting with your buffalo rifle ) its good reading. If anyone has shot that one mile shoot with a 50/90 please feel free to send me any info will help, buckshootchavez@comcast.net Thank you.

[Knarley]

If I recall, Duluth has a lot of pretty steep hills. Put your target at the bottom of a big one, perhaps your staff will be tall enough?

Knarley

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Possibly the most important piece of preparation is preparing not to be dismayed if the groups turn out quite a bit wider than three times the 600 yard ones.

You might find it easier to shoot in the back position, since they don't make cheekpieces that high. In shooting disciplines where they weren't allowed a headrest for this, they sometimes fixed a thong to the rifle or (better I think) the left wrist, and held it in the teeth to hold the head up.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Most of us are using a front rest of some sort, I shoot from a bench rest, we allow any safe position. No smokeless loads, BP only. After the accident at the Q a few years back, we just won't take the risks. The only rounds that place are the 45-110, 45-100, 50-90, the 50 has to have a 700 plus grain bullet to even be competitive. The 45-110 reigns as top dog, with a record of 8/10 hits in a single relay, it has the top score PP bullets have proved to be the best for this range. The PP seem to hold verticle better which is very critical at this Range. Some clear trends have come to surface in this match, the Money nose is hands down a clear leader, our last match all 3 places were with Money bullets, my version from BACO at .446 diameter.

Our resident 50-90 shooter dropped his charge 5 grains due to recoil, the results were dismal to say the least. We have lots of folks come, very few connect with the target. I can only endorse two rear sights, with out any sort of spacer. MVA XLR, and Kermit Hoke's XLR sight. Other sights will work with a spacer of at least 1.5 inches.

You Need the best ammo you can assemble, period if you have over 1.5 MOA verticle, forget it, you won't get any hits to speak of. You also need a MV of over 1350 fps. We screen every one before the match, if you can not reach the target with your sight, you can't shoot. And you will not be allowed to shoot the match. We have a good many show up, with out the proper equipment, even after being told what they will need. And after not even coming close to having enough elevation go home mad. Had a very close friend show up last match with a old Shiloh in 45-120 with 2 loads. A 385 Gr. Bullet and a 450 GR. Bullet with a tall C Sharps sight we tracked his hits finally with my liecea Range finder about 1320 yards out. Far short of our target, with our pit 287 yards out on the far right out of the firing lane, someone shooting over 400 yards short he was up set when he was turned away and not allowed to shoot. He drove over 600 miles to attend. I told him he did not have the right equipment, no load testing just two loads he had thrown together. Have a real good 1000 yard load and proper sight,or do not bother coming, as you may get sent home.

KW

[montana_charlie]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80815
That's a pretty piece of wood on your Pedersoli ...

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Hightime,
the rear sight in the picture of your rifle won't even come close to making it. Just so you know.

KW

[M-Tecs]

The only rounds that place are the 45-110, 45-100, 50-90, the 50 has to have a 700 plus grain bullet to even be competitive. The 45-110 reigns as top dog, with a record of 8/10 hits in a single relay, it has the top score PP bullets have proved to be the best for this range. The PP seem to hold verticle better which is very critical at this Range. Some clear trends have come to surface in this match, the Money nose is hands down a clear leader, our last match all 3 places were with Money bullets, my version from BACO at .446 diameter.

KW

Thanks for the excellent write-up and info.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Shooting a grease groove bullet will cost you 40 to 45 MOA, on the staff vrs a PP bullet. Figure with a 1386 fps muzzle velocity with a grease groove bullet will be around 3.85-3.93 on the MVA staff, you will need a NASA or money bullet, a jones or postell prob won't cut it.

There is a lot of conjecture, speculation on what is the best bullet nose designs in the cast lead bullet for long range, I have seen and used a bullet that will deliver 8 hits in 10 shots at a mile, and it does not have grease grooves.

KW

[LynC2]

That's a pretty piece of wood on your Pedersoli ...

I was thinking the same thing! If it shoots as well as that stock looks, it will be awesome!

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I don't think it would be wise to visit dk17hmr. Why you might ask? He is definitely a shape shifter. In reality he is a llama. His shadow proves it. Can you turn your back on a llama?

[montana_charlie]

I don't think it would be wise to visit dk17hmr. Why you might ask? He is definitely a shape shifter. In reality he is a llama. His shadow proves it.
I see what you mean.


Can you turn your back on a llama?
You can, but it's unwise.

[rockrat]

How would the smaller calibers work, such as the 38-72 or the 40-65, at a mile?

[hightime]

Nice to see more good information on this effort. I however, have failed to follow through on my end yet. The grandkids have kept me busy. Maybe I can take some of this info and get some shots out there by spring.

Thanks so much for your expertise.

Owen