Ideal 360271 - S

[Green Frog]

I want to get something I can use to make effective reloads for my old S&W Terrier (in 38 S&W.) I got a mould on flea-Bay some time ago that is labeled 360271, then it has a little "S" off toward the edge. The main reference I can find to it is in the portion of a 1929 Ideal Handbook in CastPics and it tells who made it and who likes it, but leaves the impression that the "S" makes it more suitable for 38 Special rather than 38 S&W. Does anyone have firsthand experience with this mould/bullet in the 38 S&W? I hate to have this neat old mould and not use it, but if it's too small, I'll just save it for use in my 38 Spl Baby Chief, I guess. TIA for any and all help! :coffeecom

Froggie

[Maven]

GF, This article may help a bit: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell38SWC.htm

[Bent Ramrod]

GF,

I think the "S" stands for "short." The standard cavity had a thicker first driving band. The "S" version didn't run the cherry in quite so deep, giving a thinner base band and a 125 gr rather than a 150 gr boolit.

As far as fitting your .38 S&W, you'd have to cast some and check. Later the design came out as the 358271 and the diameter variances seemed to blur through the 0.357-0.360" range for all of them, some large, some small, depending on when they were manufactured. My 360271-S shoots OK in a S&W breaktop .38 S&W.

[9.3X62AL]

Froggie, time for a Tale Of The Tape on the involved revolver(s). My two 38/200 revos (Webley-Enfield and S&W M&P) both require .363" boolits to match their throats and grooves. My Colt Police Positive does very well with the Lyman or NOE #358477, sized at .359" for its throats.

[Green Frog]

Well, the S doesn't seem to stand for "short" on my mould... the base band has to be about 1/4 long. I can't imagine a much deeper base band for the diameter of the bullet. I guess I'll have to cast up a bunch and do all the spec'ing out to know exactly what Ive got and whether it will work with my Terrier. From the literature, it's supposed to be a good little bullet that makes nice holes in paper. Should work well for social work too! ;)

Froggie

[Bent Ramrod]

GF,

Perhaps it means "special" after all. There was a discussion on this mould a while ago:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?49785-Ideal-mold&highlight=360271

My version has the thin base band, says "360271 S" and also has "125 GR" stamped on it.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, Bent Ramrod. It looks like I'm re-plowing old ground here. I guess the only thing to do is just cast some up from this mould and see what I get in my gun to get an answer, 'cause all the history just gets more confusing the more I read of it. I had seen the Wilder/Himmelwright reference in an old Ideal Handbook too, but didn't have the whole thing handy to check out their recommended powder charges. Unless it's for Bullseye, it will probably be some obscure powder I can't get anyway.

I'm assuming that I got this mould on flea-Bay, but I really can't remember for sure. I just found it rattling around in the floorboard of my van the other day.:-? FWIW, it's an old, small block Ideal and the numbers of the mould designator are stamped in two sizes, sort of crooked with a smaller 360 and a slightly larger 271 and the S way off to the side. The block match stamping is a 4 digit thing that appears to be "B 923" with the B a little different in spacing and register on both sides. I'm going to assume the thing was a special order of some sort and just hope (as I said) that this mould will work with my gun... that's about all I can really hope for. Thanks again for going to the effort to track down all that previous info... my search didn't turn it up for some reason. :confused:

Regards,
Froggie

[Maven]

GF, I use that CB @ .358" in my .38Spl. (S & W Mod. 10), but with target loads of BE or something similar. It's seated deeply with no crimp applied. Accuracy thus far has been good.

[Green Frog]

GF, I use that CB @ .358" in my .38Spl. (S & W Mod. 10), but with target loads of BE or something similar. It's seated deeply with no crimp applied. Accuracy thus far has been good.

In the historical info that Bent Ramrod and I referenced, it was said that this was an early design by an old time revolver shooter to make a good target bullet. It seems to predate the wad cutter in production and was apparently highly thought of by what was a then very active revolver shooting community. Full wad cutter and more "advanced" semi-wad cutter designs seem to have supplanted it as time went by, but if it fits my chambers, throat, and bore, there's no reason it shouldn't make a dandy bullet for my pre-War Terrier. Since the only other mould I own specifically for 38 S&W throws the original round nose design and a round ball (it's the S&W "peanut handle" design) I figure this one just has to be an improvement. ;) Now if I can just get a round tuit, I'll cast and load some and all will be well with the World. :bigsmyl2:

Froggie

[Guesser]

My 360271S drops at .361 from 50/50 WW/PB. I size .360 for both of my Regulation Police Smiffs and my Colt PP.

[Green Frog]

Well, it's still too hot for casting at my place (or I'm too lazy) but I just found my old Ideal #32 Handbook and looked up what it said about the bullet. They describe the .360 series of bullets as being originally designed for the 38 S&W but being modified for the 38 Special by using a smaller cherry. The book reads as follows (with all caps as they printed it, I'm not yelling) about the 360 series;

"... The letter S after the bullet number indicates that we have cherries to cut moulds slightly smaller than standard so the bullets may be sized to .358". MOULDS OF THIS SIZE WILL BE SUPPLIED IN ALL CASES WHERE THE ORDER DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT THE BULLET IS TO BE SIZED .360 INCH."

It would appear that I should expect my mould to drop somewhere about .358 or .359" to be sized to true up at .358" but as Guesser said, maybe mine will drop @ .361" like his. I'm going to assume until somebody tells me otherwise that the S actually stands for "Small" and would be provided unless you specified the larger mould from the "Special" list. I should have known better than to try to apply logic to anything Ideal did with numbers and codes! :rolleyes:

Thanks to all who provided input and information.

Froggie

[9.3X62AL]

All things Lyman/Ideal tend toward the poetic in some form or fashion.

Bent Ramrod--I have a #358429 example with a shortened base band. It casts @ 162 grains in 92/6/2, and the base band is noticeably shorter than both the mid-band and front drive band on this boolit. It shoots well, so I haven't seen the need to replace it......but just another example of Lyman Poetry In Motion.

[rintinglen]

Lyman seems to have taken the old adage "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" as their motto and mantra. I used to shoot with an old boy who had four different 429-421s, each of a different vintage and each slightly differing from the others.

[Bent Ramrod]

Al,

I've cast and shot a few from my mould, but I've never bothered to weigh or mike them. My only .38 S&W is an old break top that has some mechanical woes and a very hard trigger pull, so I figured worrying about diameters and weights was pretty superfluous in this case. They seemed to shoot OK, but it was firing for effect more than anything. I don't recall any leading.

There was a period when the Lyman family wanted out of the business and they seemed to let a lot of things slide. Shapes, sizes, depths of cavities; all could change.

[9.3X62AL]

I came to the 38 S&W later in my hobby history than a lot of the calibers I ride herd upon. The Webley-Enfield came first, followed by the S&W M&P "Lend-Lease return". Their 38/200 service loads are a very different animal than the loads for the more recently-acquired Colt Police Positive--both diametrically and power-wise. All three shoot appropriate loads with acceptable accuracy, the Colt probably the best of the lot. Its fixed service sights aren't the best in the world, but it has accounted for small varmints from 35 to 60 yards. The S&W is almost as good, but hasn't been hunted with nearly as much. Its 200 grain RN boolits hit with authority, though--more than its velocity of 700 FPS would lead you to believe, whether the target is range steel or small critter. One day I'll cast some of these NEI #169A boolits of unalloyed lead and try them out on jackrabbits. They anchor jacks in immediate fashion cast of WW metal, one wonders what havoc they could wreak in pure lead as defensive projectiles. I recall BruceB not being impressed with the 38 S&W cartridge as a goblin-stopper based on its time in Canada as a police service round, but I sure as hell wouldn't stand downrange from a 38/200 revolver and try fielding its bullets with a baseball glove.