Old hands with the .303 brit, some advice needed!

[shredder]

Good day fellows.

Some history: I have been casting for my Lee Enfield no1 mkIII 1917 long throat (cordite)but shootable bore using a lyman 314299 and an alloy comprised of 96-2-2 lead tin ant. with limited success. Diameter of the boolits is .312-.313 depending on which band I measure. They pass through my .314 lee sizing die with no contact other than the gas check. Of course on loading them, neck tension is problematic as the .314 gas check is opening the neck too much for the .312 boolit. Toggle switch type thing until you crimp but it is not really what I am after!

I cast up a bunch with pure linotype and have my major diameter troubles solved. .313-.314 After sizing, the gas checks now measure the same as the driving bands which are ironed into round ever so slightly. Perfect.

My question is willl my linotype boolits being so much harder than my normal alloy shoot at standard load levels ie: 13 grains of red dot,16 grains of 2400 etc. 14-1600 fps or should I be looking to higher pressures and velocities for best performance?

[Larry Gibson]

Lino bullets will do fine with your standard loads. I suggest adding 20-30% lead to the lino though. It will cast as well and actually make better bullets. Also cast at 720 -730 degrees. If bottom pouring open the spout to get the alloy into the mould fast. If using a ladle Lyman's method works very well to get complete fill out. With either method be generous with the sprue, even if it runs off the sprue plate.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

May also want to try Beagling!
1Shirt!

[truckjohn]

Yes... Beagle the mold... I had to do that same thing with my 314299... It cast right at 0.312"

Thanks

[Outpost75]

Actually a 50-50 mix of plumber's lead and linotype will be about 13 BHN, cast well and be of entirely adequate strength for the loads you are shooting. In the .303s I have found that alloys towards the softer side work better, unless you have bullets which cast closer to throat diameter. If your SMLE has throat wear from firing Cordite ammunition, I'd be willing to bet that if you cast the chamber and measured it, the diameter ahead of the case mouth, prior to origin of rifling is closer to .316" than to .314" as it would be in a new barrel. I have measured dozens of wartime barrels and those of .315" and larger are far more common than smaller. I have seen them as large as .318!

[Jack Stanley]

C'mon fellas that undersize mold is way more valuable for use in most 1903A3 rifles I've seen just as it is .

Let's encourage the man to do what all of us want to do buy an mold from Toms Accurate molds . It can be our part to the stimulus package huh?


Not that I'd ever stir the pot ............. Jack

[runfiverun]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-205B-D.png
so your saying something like this should work.

[shredder]

Ha Ha! Thanks for the replies boys! Always in the market for a new mould.

The good news is that I shot some loads of 18 grains SR4759 with my lino boolits and holy cow!! My old Enfield started to shoot. I mean really shoot! I must have stumbled onto a magic combination because she went from more or less patterns of 4-6 inches to piling up boolits right into the point of aim.

Now before you get out the tar and feathers, I really did shoot 3 consecutive 5 shot groups at 50 yards that are an inch or so. Mostly a tear pattern in the paper. I sat with my mouth open when I looked at the first group on the paper. It was a couple of inches low so I adjusted the rear sight up and shot another tear group a couple of inches high. I threw another 5 shots at the atarget with the same result. You could have knocked me over with a feather!!

Then I set out a pair of milk jugs and a target at 100, filled up the 10 shot clip and proceeded to ventilate the jugs "mad minute style" and just for fun threw my last 3 at the target. They were in a nice cluster about 1 1/2 inches. Very hot barrel at this point. This is off the bench of course but no way was I getting that lucky today, the rifle done found it's pet load!!!

So to answer my own questin, NO I do not think it is necessary to increase pressure in order to successfully use linotype instead of regular soft alloy, in my rifle, with my loads, today, at my rifle range..

[shredder]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-205B-D.png
so your saying something like this should work.

I want one of those! The link took me to a picture of a very nice .303 boolit.

[longbow]

Looks like you have 'er more or less beat but a few suggestions:

- Have you slugged the bore and throat? I find my .303's like a throat filling 0.315" boolit. The Lyman 314299 at 0.312" was too small for my 0.314" grooves. Bigger is better. Beagling will give you another 0.002" to 0.003" ~ try it, you can increase boolit diameter without buying a new mould.
- Have you tried filler? Controversial subject but I find that using COW + graphite filler works well for me. Got the idea from:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

After several discussions with David Southall and doing some research I tried fillers and like them. If you try fillers be warned that they do raise pressure so reduce loads to accommodate the extra weight and more importantly reduced cartridge volume. Work up loads with filler. Also, filler is best suited to medium and slow powders, not fast pistol/shotgun powders.
- Anneal your brass and get a Lee collet sizer then size to suit the boolit diameter not back to SAAMI specs like regular sizing die ~ my brass was sizing the bearing bands at boolit seating because the lead was swaging it back up to 0.315" from 0.310" (RCBS dies). Harder boolits help there too which you have probably just discovered. Of course copper jackets don't care. This will also make brass last longer too.
- I often oven heat treat my NOE 316299's (copy of Lyman but casts at 0.315"+) because I found the heavier boolits were skidding a bit. Harder boolits helped there.

Longbow

[shredder]

Longbow:That is a good link. I have read that before but not in a while.
Thanks for your reply there is a lot of great info there.

I just can not believe my good luck today. I loaded up 20 of the most accurate listed load straight out of the lyman cast boolit handbook for that boolit cast from linotype and went to the range. I had 20 assorted other loads with the same boolit cast from soft alloy with 17-19 grains of 2400. They shot all over the place. Only when I tried the Lyman load of 18 grains of SR 4759 under my Linotype boolits did things go well.

I could live happily ever after with this load. BTW, I used speed green on these and the barrel is very very clean after firing.

That says a lot for this rifle. When I first got it there was some debate between the seller and I as to whether there was any rifling in it at all. A tight patch would not rotate and bright light showed ony faint vestiges of rifling. He basically gave it to me as he figured it was a tomato stake. He threw it in on a deal for a nice Winchester 94 from 1975. Mighty friendly of him!

After pretty much wearing out my elbow with ed's red and countless patches I came to the conclusion that I could excavate nay further despite the filthy paches still coming out of the bore. None of the patches would grab rifling no matter how tight I got them. I fired 40 Winchester factory loads and the interior of the barrel started to look better, though the bullets made odd oval shapes in the target board at 50 yards and did not group much better than 4 inches. Then I shot a whole bunch of cast boolits through it and things started really shaping up. It comes clean fairly easily now and though the bore is pitted, it showed me today that there is lots of accuracy left in there. A tight patch grabbed and held the rifling today for the first time when I cleaned it out. Every one after that did too and they all looked quite clean so I quit.

Seeing the accuracy of the old Enfield today was a true joy. I marvelled at the precision of the rifle after all these years. As a famous gun writer once said " Let the rifle speak!"

[303Guy]

Interesting article. Funny thing, the writer says lube in the chamber on on the cases cause vertical stringing - I've never experienced anything like that and I always lube my loaded cases. Maybe it's the consistency. He also writes on case trim length and chamber length. I've found boolits can expand into the gap between case mouth and chamber end is the alloy is soft enough.

[Maximumbob54]

I just ordered the Lee mold but I'm really thinking of trying the NOE version:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=381

[shredder]

I just ordered the Lee mold but I'm really thinking of trying the NOE version:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=381

Hope that works out for ya! I have heard good results for the lee boolit but my bore is just too big.

[Maximumbob54]

Hope that works out for ya! I have heard good results for the lee boolit but my bore is just too big.

The bore in mine looks clean but I haven't slugged it. I'm usually good with just casting a few and if they lead I know I need bigger.

My rifle is from the fifties I think so I'm hoping the barrel is in spec and isn't a war time hurry up and get'em out the door special. If so then I may finally have to learn how to beagle and not make a mess like I have in the past.

[Char-Gar]

My thoughts on the issue;

1. Linotype is not needed for cast bullets loads, but does not hurt at all to use it.
2. Linotype does fill out molds nicely and makes for well formed bullets.
3. Linotype is antimony rich and antimony is one of the few metals that expand when cold, so that is why is was used to cast small type figures and works so well in No. 2 above. This is also why it tends to cast bullet larger.
4. a 50/50 mix of linotype and pure lead gives an alloy (more or less) about like Lyman No. 2 which is plenty hard for all rifle and magnum handgun use.
5. In theory, the high antimony crystals in Linotype can wear the barrel quicker than, being more abrasive. I said, theory because I have not proved it to be so, but got this from a credible source (Felix).

[shredder]

Good info! The lesson I learned is that my rifle likes harder boolits than I was using at the start. I am going to try some water dropped wheel weights and see how they shoot.

[9.3X62AL]

My SMLE is dimensionally-challenged as spoken of above. Grooves run about .315", throat is almost .316". The answer was a mould of fattened diameter, a Group Buy run by a member here a few years back. Its as-cast diameter in 92/6/2 AKA Half Lino/half lead is .318", weight is 202 grains. Atop 16.0 grains of 2400, the 300 yard notch in my 1917 BSA's rear sight puts them point-of-aim/point-of-impact at 100 yards, and in 1.75" to 2.00"/5 shots. Given the bore's indifferent condition, this is fine by me. Fun rifle, and very deer-capable if I cast those 202 grainers as soft-points.

[Maximumbob54]

Thinking back to some previous threads this might turn into a good paper patch learner.

[shredder]

Thinking back to some previous threads this might turn into a good paper patch learner.

That has occurred to me to give paper patching a try.

I am also researching the beagling method in preparation for a shot at that too